BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Starting 5/9/16, BBC2 will be carrying BBC Parliament programming overnight.

Not sure if this is a simulcast, a selection of their programmes or whilst the US Presidential elections are on.

This will also give them the opportunity to show material in HD.

Thoughts?

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

I think the channel exists just to fill bandwidth. I'd rather they move all sports to that channel and stop the faffing around with schedules on BBC1 and BBC2.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Being able to see our Governments in action is very important and a perfect example why the BBC is so important, couldn't see ITV or Sky carrying the service

Never see my MP in SD so no chance of seeing him in HD

Sport can stay on BBC1 AND BBC2

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Yes, but the point is that the BBC 2 programmes will be the same as the BBC Parliament channel. That's just a waste.

There will always be people who return from work into the wee small hours, just as the decent programmes are being wrapped up. Recognising this, BBC 1 and 2 should repeat their prime viewing programmes between 2 and 5am rather than duplicate content from their other channels.

As for sport, I would rather that was kept on separate sport channels. Maybe that would be a better use for BBC4.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

BBC1 already simulcasts the news channel overnight so in a way this is nothing new.

There are cost implications in showing repeats, even at 4 in the morning. It would cost them more than the viewing figures at that time of night would justify.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

I know BBC 1 also simulcasts in this way. That's why I said 'BBC1 and 2'.

I do not know the cost involved in my suggested approach, but I would be surprised if it was so significant as to make it impractical. Minor digital channels seem to manage all right, so I really would be surprised if it was a problem for the Beeb.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Considering the BBC owns most of the content and they are broadcasting anyway I'm with you on this one why not actually repeat prime time for night shift workers

If you really want to parliament there is already a channel and iplayer if you need to catch up

I can't see why that would cost more than parliament repeats

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

BBC4 has enough good quality content without being ruined by having to be a home for sport as well

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

They own the copyright in many cases but by no means all. Many productions are made by outside companies and pitched to the BBC; they fund production and get first run but they don't buy or own outright. Even in cases where they do fully own the copyright in the recording they often need permission from the performers, possibly also the scriptwriter, who are entitled to repeat fees.

You don't have to pay a newsreader extra for broadcasting them on two channels simultaneously and you don't have to pay MPs anything.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Thanks for the clarity

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

H'mm... maybe the second showing could be covered in the contracts. I don't really think this is an insluable problem, if indeed it is a problem.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Repeat showings could indeed be contracted for, however it would increase the fee the actor was entitled to for the original performance. The BBC would be taking a gamble on the "repeatability" of the product before it was even made, as well as trying to overturn decades of practice in what is still a highly unionised environment. Equity is the nearest thing we still have to a closed shop trade union in the uk. They would do it if it was desirable and cost effective (they went through a similar process in order to allow their own content to appear on the iplayer), but are they really going to go through the effort and expense for overnight screenings?

Simulcasts of live and/or current affairs output are the easiest and cheapest way of continuing broadcasts overnight when viewing figures simply don't justify any additional expense.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Anyway with so much choice of platforms for TV viewing I suspect that shift workers can 'record' what they wish to see and view at their own leisure so overnight programmes might as well be news based or even parliamentary sessions..

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

I still don't see how much smaller channels like 5 USA, Drama, W or even BT's AMC with an even smaller audience, can continue with their programming throughout the night, repeating dramas from the previous evening, and the Beeb cannot.

Although Chris raises a good point, I don't really think the barriers to doing this are actually there.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

In most cases those channels' business model is built entirely on repeating stuff, often very old stuff, and their deals for acquiring that content will reflect that. Plus, much of it being old and not especially good, it's cheap. The BBC could no doubt emulate this but would likely fall foul of its own public service test. If it's directly emulating 5USA, which is a non-public service commercial rival, it is doubtful it is acting within its terms of operation.

The BBC could only feasibly emulate the likes of 5USA (which, incidentally, actually just shows teleshopping for half the night, along with many of the other minor channels) by repeating its own content, which is when you rapidly come back to the issue of repeat fees.

This has nothing at all to do with whether it's possible, and everything to do with whether it is practical and cost effective given the BBC's unique position.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Yes, but up until 4am, 5 USA broadcasts programmes like Rookie Blue. Looking at AMC, on Tuesday for example, they have the following schedule:

1.25am The Walking Dead
2.25 Breaking Bad
3.30-5.30 Grey's Anatomy

The popular Universal channel has:

2.05am Major Crimes
3.00-5.00 Numb3rs

So it can't really be such a problem, can it?

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

As I said ... channels that buy content produced elsewhere, have the when/how often/for how long written into the deal. The BBC is a producer and broadcaster of first-run material and its licences and fees reflect that.

Also, as I said ... it is not a "problem" in the sense of whether it can be done or not. It is a problem in the sense of whether it is cost effective for the BBC to do it, also taking its public service status into account.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

...And as I said, the BBC could write such provisions into their contracts. It's no big deal, IMHO.

If the BBC is that worried about saving money, they could just close BBC1 and 2 down after 2am rather than simply duplicate what their other channels are doing.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

They couldn't completely close down like they used to in the old days without switching off the whole mux.

If you didn't mean that they should close down completely, simulcasting this sort of material is more beneficial and just as cheap as showing a caption or the testcard!

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Of course they could. But they haven't.

Why do *you* think that is?

Actually they couldn't. A digital broadcast frequency carries several channels as a multiplex. You can't "close down" one of them. You can only close down the whole multiplex. Seeing as the multiplex continues to broadcast, that slice of it that carries BBC2 might as well carry something. Given that the BBC's contracts with its performers and other suppliers are what they are, the most useful thing they can do is advertise their less well used digital channels by airing them where (a few) more people will see them.

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:11 ----------

... which Richard has already just said. :D

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

OK. Let's just ignore the fact that BBC4 closes down every night at about 4am until 7pm next day, shall we? What a load of tosh!

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

I watch The Daily Politics (HD) sometimes and on Wednesday when it shows Prime Ministers Questions (during sittings) the pictures are not in HD from Parliament which is a bit of a surprise but there we are.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Yep, as it stands all the pictures coming from the house of commons are in SD.

Some time ago I was sitting in one of the MP's offices. Each MP has a monitor with a live feed of the main chamber.

When I remarked about the old fashioned CRT SD monitors, I was told that it would be pointless to upgrade them as all the pictures received were in SD.

There was a suggestion that the delay in making a decision about upgrading was down to some MP's not wanting to be seen too closely in HD! :D

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

In normal circumstances*, BBC4 shares it's capacity with the daytime channel CBeebies.

* This can change for things like the Olympics etc.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Yes, Richard, and I'm sure it can change for other reasons too! This is, I'm afraid, an argument about very little.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Sigh ...

This is following a familiar pattern isn't it? You know, the one where you propose an idea, several people explain why it might not be practical, and then you just dig in and insist you're right.

First: please answer my question. You insist the BBC could repeat some of their entertainment shows overnight. Yet the fact is, they don't. You have rejected explanations that have been offered to you. So please, offer an explanation of your own. Why do you think they don't do it?

Second: both Richard and I explained what, in practical terms, "close down" means for a digital tv station. You either didn't bother to read it or you didn't understand it. Let me try again. A digital broadcast consists of several channels on one frequency. Even if all the staff of one channel switch off and go home for the night, the multiplex that carries their channel is still being transmitted, even if it carries no data for their channel. The service may "close down", however the actual broadcast of the frequency carrying the channel does not.

BBC4, seeing as we're talking about it, shares its portion of the broadcast multiplex with CBeebies, which operates daily from 6am to 7pm. So that portion of the multiplex is actually only unused for 2 hours every night. I doubt they think it's worthwhile simulcasting anything for those two hours. The hours from 4am are when even many of the channels that repeat shows overnight give up and switch to teleshopping.

May I finally repeat my main question: why do you think the BBC does not repeat its shows overnight on BBC1 and/or BBC2?

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

You are being pedantic in the extreme, Chris! You can use whatever term you like to describe it, but if it pleases you, let's say that BBC1 and 2 could carry 'no data' for their channel during the said wee small hours. Is that better? However, I think most would describe it as a 'close down' because in the past that's what the daily cessation of transmission has been called.

Of course, you are correct in saying that BBC4 shares with a children's channel, but your argument about the significance of closing down (as most would describe it) is made pointless when you admit that no data is sent for 2 hours after BBC4 ceases broadcasting for the night.

I have no idea why the Beeb chooses to simulcast rather than repeat all or some of its prime time viewing. The reasons you have given don't really hold water. If minor channels can do it, so can they. However, I am sure your creative talents will enable you to come up with some major barrier or other to a perfectly feasible suggestion. Strewth, I'm glad you're not in charge of the Brexit talks! ;)

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

And there it is in a nutshell. You insist you have made a "perfectly feasible suggestion". Perhaps you think they've never thought about it? Maybe you could write in? They might even offer you a job.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Ahh, another BBC thread.... shall I indulge myself? Hell yes!!:)

Firstly, on the original question, it seems the timing does coincide with the US Presidential elections. So yes, it is a good idea to simulcast BBC Parliament on BBC2 so that it can get the HD treatment.

But this thread has turned into a more what/how many channels should the BBC carry and what should be on them. More of that in a second...

On Chris'/Old Boy's discussion, if it were purely just a question of royalties/repeat fees which prevent the BBC repeating their prime time line up during the small hours, how does that explain iplayer?

Some dramas/comedies are on iplayer for 30 days and all the main ones are available for at least 7 days. So the BBC either pays for repeat fees on iplayer, or it doesn't. But either way, I see no reason why the BBC couldn't repeat their prime time schedule at night as its already on iplayer.

Back to the BBC and what channels they should have..... They should carry BBC Parliament, but this is not a true BBC channel as it is parliament rather than BBC produced content, so shouldn't count towards their channel count. As for the others...I would organise as follows:

BBC1 - Main channel showing general entertainment shows, drama, comedy, news bulletins, current affairs, factual and other mainstream genres.

BBC2 - Should go back to being what it was designed for, ie a spill over channel for BBC2. If sports need to be shown uninterrupted, they can go on this channel. As well as special event programming such as Stargazing Live. Pre-school shows would be a large part of the daytime schedule. Local/Regional news and shows feature in the evening. Open University fill other time slots.
BBC3 - Should be the kids/teens channel. Kids programming shown before school, then revert to Schools programming during the day, the kind that used to be on BBC2 (ie Look & Read), then kids shows resume after school and into the evening. Then around 8/9 pm it should become a teen channel with more experimental/risque content.

BBC4 - Should be the news/politics/factual/arts channel which can revert to a rolling news schedule, as and when needed. With specialist programmes on money & business, science & engineering, health & medicine, education, technology etc

All channels apart from BBC2 would be national channels and would show the same content across the UK. Only BBC2 would have different regional versions. That in itself would save the BBC a lot of transponder/DTT/cable carriage fees.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Why make this so personal, Chris? It was a perfectly sensible proposal but as usual you find all these spurious reasons to rubbish it and then insist that your answer is final.

You still haven't explained why the smaller digital channels can afford to repeat prime time shows through the night but the Beeb, with more resources than anyone else cannot. But let's not let the obvious spoil the wrecking ball arguments that you tend to put forward to avoid anyone actually daring to contemplate change.

The best argument I have heard so far for the simulcast on BBC1 is that you can watch BBC Parliament in HD.

---------- Post added at 16:41 ---------- Previous post was at 16:39 ----------

Thank you, Horizon, you have made some valid points here.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Because I never said it was unaffordable - I simply pointed out that there was a cost that most people don't appreciate (repeat fees) whereas simulcasting current affairs content does not have that cost. The cost issue is nothing to do with breaking the bank. It's simply a matter of priorities. They choose not to spend money on repeating entertainment shows overnight in order to have more money for content at times of day when viewing figures will be higher. If the decision was cost neutral, and they thought they would serve more viewers, and they thought it would pass a public service value test, then they might decide to repeat their entertainment content overnight. But they haven't done that.

Your problem, as always, is that you find it hard to process the fact that different businesses, just like different people, have different priorities. Just because 5USA's business priority means funds are available to run repeats of its entertainment content overnight, it does not follow that the BBC's priorities are the same and their business decisions will be similar. Just because 5USA's business model aligns with your idea of what a broadcaster should be doing overnight, it does not follow that all of them must.

Final thought, I don't know what it's like on Freeview but Freesat carries a national variant of bbc2 in HD, so anyone watching BBC parliament at 4am on bbc2, on satellite at least, will be able to see it in HD.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Chris, what's your opinion on the cost issue/repeat fees issue if the BBC brought all its programming inhouse again, as it used to be? Do you think that would help to reduce costs, make no difference?

I'm coming at this not necessarily from a "lets repeat primetime schedules at night" point of view, although I would quite like to see this, but rather from a lets have +1 channels.

I was very unhappy when the BBC dropped its plans for BBC1 +1 and didn't really get their reasoning for doing so.

---------- Post added at 17:35 ---------- Previous post was at 17:33 ----------

Which of course was Richard's original point and something I would like to see.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

My guess is it would be cheaper, because when they commission big ticket shows from outside companies (Life on Mars, for example) they bankroll the production but then only get first run and iplayer for a limited time. If they wanted to show it again they would have to buy the rights from the production company. That is necessarily going to be more expensive than paying repeat fees direct to the performers (though probably simpler, as you need to get permission from the performers as well).

It won't happen though. The stipulation that the BBC must source a proportion of its original content out-of-house has been in its royal charter for decades now and has been riotously successful at growing tv production expertise in the uk. Nobody is about to change that.

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For the second time, Parliament is not transmitted in HD.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Yes, but at least some of its content is produced in HD. If it is simulcast on an HD stream then whatever had been produced in HD will show in HD.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Every platform now has BBC2 HD.

It isn't, but BBC Parliament doesn't only show material originating from the Palace of Westminster.

I'm pretty sure that the American Presidential footage will be in HD.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Got that, but BBC Parliament has programmes that are not shown elsewhere. So if they did do coverage of the US elections and it wasn't already carried by the BBC News channel, there is a opportunity to see BBC Parliament's coverage in HD if it were shown on BBC2 after hours.

BBC Parliament also shows stuff from Hollyrood (Scotch parliament), Welsh Assembly, NI Assembly, European Parliament and sometimes court. It's not just Westminster. I don't know if they still show C-Span stuff too, they used to.

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It is only carrying one hour of highlights each night - not the whole night!

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Never see the point of getting all content in HD. Partly because our 28" CRT TV doesn't do HD but much content isn't improved anyway. And HD fills the Tivo too much.

Our parliament doesn't warrant HD (some parliamentarians shouldn't be seen in that much detail), the Thai one does as it can have much more action :P

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

You might change your view if you had a 49" screen!

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

...yep, I used to have the same view as "tweetie" (change of username?) until I got a larger HD tv. Basically you need HD content, otherwise it looks awful.

It's a great shame that all our old tv shows were not filmed on 35mm film, unlike American shows.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Were looking at a 150" screen but wife wouldn't let me spend the 700k :P

Can't see us replacing TV until this one breaks and then given our budget and room size would go smaller and better quality. Don't want the TV to dominate. New features would be nice though.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

The film stock has deteriorated quite badly in some cases, and restoration is an expensive process that is reserved for the few jewels in the crown that justify it (Star Trek, for example, where every excuse to reissue the whole thing on the latest portable media is welcomed with open wallets).

Once the BBC started archiving on videotape (as opposed to wiping tapes for re use and archiving only select episodes on film), their future was secured. You'll never see Fawlty Towers in HD, but it can at least be replayed whenever required without the recoding medium going off.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

Unfortunately videotape is also subject to deterioration with time especially if badly stored*. Re-recording to new tape is subject to reduction of quality too. Only storing digitally with minimum compression on HDDs or SSDs is the secure media and even then duplicate copies are a must.

* Variations of temperature and humidity cause the tape pack to move against itself on the reels which results in magnetic "Print through" which can eventually render the tape unplayable. Same applies to video cassettes. including domestic formats.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

As well as the problems that you mention, there is also the cost and storage space to think about.

Also, I used to assume that archiving only had to be done once, but as technology moves on and new technology in time becomes obsolete, it has to be done repeatedly.

Some people transferred their vinyl first onto CD's and then onto their computers, but how long before they will need to do it again? I also assume that the quality will decrease each time.

I recently asked someone who worked on the comedy programme 'George And Mildred' as to why there were artefacts all over the place, particularly on Yootha Joyce's hair and clothes.

He explained that the process above has led to the repeats on ITV3 suffering from this and that they were not originally transmitted as they are today due to rigourous quality control.

Re: BBC Parliament coming to BBC2.
 

There is quality loss whenever the content is played out from an analogue source to another analogue source. It is possible to copy from digital to digital without loss of quality, provided lossy compression hasn't been involved.