NHS Cuts
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-37186455

Mmm, this wasn't mentioned at the General Election. In fact the Tories promised £8biilion extra for the NHS, where is it? Surely not gone on tax cuts for the struggling rich?

Never mind the NHS can always rely on the £100 million a week promised by the Brexit devotees....

Re: NHS Cuts
 

You have to remember Mr K that politicians talk with forked tongue not just once but again and again and again.

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I think you may have misread that article. It doesn't address top level funding at all, which was the subject of the election pledge you referred to.

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I'm afraid money for the NHS, is money for the NHS. Trying to cosmetically obscure cuts by different funding/budgets is half the problem. It all has the same result in the end. Best not to get ill in the coming years if you can help it.

The chronic shortage of nurses, which will be further exacerbated by Brexit, is the major oncoming crisis. Making them take out loans/get a degree to look after the rest of us is a genius Govt plan. What graduate would want a nurses pay on top of a loan?

Hospitals are having to cancel Theatre lists worth tens of thousands, as they aren't able to hire covering nursing staff (source, Mrs K who is in the thick of it). The system is being deliberately set up to fail - Jeremy Hunt's objective, thats why amazingly he's kept his job

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Nope, you're still not reading the article. Or at least you're not understanding it. There is nothing in that article that says any proposed cuts or reorganisations at a local level, will result in the top-line NHS budget being cut. That top-line budget is the one that was subject to a Tory election promise.

Re: NHS Cuts
 

Afraid you're trying to defend the indefensible Chris. The public were led to believe there would be major investment, not cuts at the General Election, that was a lie.

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Nope. I'm simply insisting that you compare apples with apples.

Each one of these local reorganisations, cuts or whatever deserves scrutiny in its own right.

That is more difficult to achieve if you keep trying to make the story something it isn't.

The top-line budget figure has not been cut. So far, the election pledge has held.

Now, how about you stop carrying on like happy hour at the branch Labour club and discuss the issue on its own terms?

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Heaven forbid that large organisations should plan various scenarios on how to meet their plans and budgets....

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Well if they did that people might whine about 'cuts' and broken election pledges...

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I'm just worried about the fact that more centralisation for A&Es is on the cards..we already have had ours move 10 miles further away with a journey of around 20 to 30 minutes drive depending on traffic.For a peninsular town with only two routes in or out it's a nightmare for ambulances during rush hour..Centralisation would probably mean moving from Portsmouth to Southampton or vice versa..not pleasant for anyone in the area..

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Cue Jeremy Corbyn staring forlornly into a camera from the floor of a hospital corridor saying that "people are dying here because of the cuts".

All his statements have more than one meaning :rolleyes:.

Re: NHS Cuts
 

I can only speak of leicester as i am at all three hospitals far more then I'd prefer the idea of cutting one hospital may make financial sense but given all three hospitals are overly busy losing one would be a disaster for patients. Whichever one they cut there isn't the slack in the remaining two to maintain the level of service and even with three the overall standard is decreasing cut down to two and a bad situation for patients will be a lot worse.

Re: NHS Cuts
 

No point increasing the money to just pay off deficits. You have to address the reasons for the deficits. Otherwise the increased money will not improve anything, and just disappear into a black hole.

Medicine is highly specialised, Unless you have larger centres, a loss through sickness or other reason, leads to a massive loss to a department, Eg 2 hospitals each with 2 specialists. A loss of one of them is a 50% loss. One hospital with all 4 means a loss of one is a 25% impact.

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The problem is that taking any over-arching view of services means that somewhere will lose out.

Imagine you've got a few large towns in a cluster with 3 reasonably local hospitals A, B and C.

Now, the NHS wants to make Hospital B their specialist centre for heart operations, so that they can concentrate staff, equipment and skills in one team. They announce this, so then everyone piles on about "downgrading" hospitals A and C and screaming about "cuts", even if Hospital A becomes a centre for something else (Spinal work for example)

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Instead of throwing large amounts of money at an admin top-heavy organisation, they are proposing throwing less money at it and just cut what they should be spending money on?

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Hmm! Won't the surviving administration just get paid more for having more responsibility?

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Why would it be affected by Brexit. Brexit was about controlling immigration, not banning it.

Control means that you allow immigration where jobs need to be filled. Also, current EU immigrants will and should stay, despite May's ridiculous 'Bargaining Chip' nonsense.

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The chronic shortage of nurses doesn't need more migration to cure it needs more home grown nurses properly paid and retained instead of masses of migrants willing and able to work for less that the Brits can earn elsewhere. As we can see by the huge numbers coming here, relying on migration becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

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That may of been the intention, but the impression we're giving is that foreign workers are not welcome here, skilled or not. We havent got enough nurses; adverts are everywhere, with hospitals are trying to pinch them from each other. They are even advertising jobs on the walls in wards. The changes the Govt. have made in getting rid of bursaries has made it even less attractive. Its ludicrous to ask nurses to take out a loan so they can qualify to look after us for a peanut wage. The NHS is utterly dependent on immigrants as we can't persuade enough mugs in this country that its worth their while.

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Rules were set in place quite a while ago I understand, that all NHS staff should have a decent command of English. I don't know who does the testing, or to what level they must be proficient. But I know one EU staff member that often gets called upon to translate for a few other members of staff. Sometimes when he is off duty at home!

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What, the £100m a week offer they now claim they never made? The first claim they've made that can be proved to be correct, as they claimed that the EU cost £395m a week that *could* (note that word) be spent on the NHS.

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Bursaries being dropped hasn't helped with that plan...

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They are doing this all over the country.

These A&E closures and downgrades to first aid centres, busy roads (especially at peak time), coupled with the increased travelling times have made this issue literally a matter of life and death.

People will needlessly die in the back of ambulances.

Even those who use private facilities should remember that they need the NHS for A&E services.

That's what they normally do...

Exactly.

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When I'm driving alongside the cycle super highway my big concern, bigger than the fact no one uses it is how do ambulances manage, you can't pull over for them, there's no where to go now, not sure how many cyclists died each month on London, 1 I suspect but you can bet many more people will die in the back of ambulances in traffic

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https://www.theguardian.com/society/...-from-collapse

At last an admission, that despite whatever reforms, we're going to need to pay more for a healthcare service in an ageing and increasing population. Why is it always 'retired ministers' who feel they can now tell the truth ? He could of maybe have been a bit more honest more when he was in office?

Not sure we need the cosmetics of a new 'health and care' tax, we have income tax already - just increase it ? It's the same in the end, all smoke and mirrors. Cutting tax for high earners might not have been a great move after all, who'd have thought ?

See the Tories have also reneged on their £72k care cost cap. Another manifesto commitment shelved. It can now be found in the fiction section at WH Smiths along with all their other manifestos.

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if Leicester loses a hospital I dread to think of the results, already the city is struggling big time with healthcare with local GPs refusing to refer patients due to massive pressure in the hospitals. The GP situation is no better either.

These cuts are about the NHS overshooting its budget in combination with the fact that budgets are not growing to match population growth. In addition to this the centralised budget doesnt reflect the situation from area to area, with some areas managing better than others, but one area managing to stay within budget doesnt mean its surplus budget goes to a struggling area.

My personal opinion based on my own limited research and the budget per head deficit we have vs france and germany is that the NHS needs circa 30% per head budget increase, with none of that increase going on wage increases but only on additional staff and beds. With the political trend pointing at lowering taxation then this clearly is never going to happen hence the disaster that is happening now.

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But France and Germany have workplace health insurance to help fund Health Services.

https://www.theguardian.com/healthca...germany-sweden

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From 2006.

From 2008.Not sure how Worcestershire Mental Health Partnership NHS Trust would be affected by the influx and not back in 2005.

From 2006
So chucking money at it didn't solve it,

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Neither has nurses and doctors who've been trained at our expense swanning off to pastures new overseas or becoming agency nurses.

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The NHS like any government run organisation is horrendously inefficient and doesn't operate in the most optimal way usually massively high levels of administration on very decent salaries. I haven't gone into any in depth research on the NHS but wouldn't be surprised if there are comparisons between it and the MOD which is an utter joke in terms of how its run with office workers outnumbering the frontline staff usually in bloated departments with hundreds if not thousands of staff more then is needed or good.

In relation to my local hospitals there's no way for me to highlight a huge issue two of them have without appearing racist and the problem is the asian community. I have witnessed more times then i can recall groups of relatives and friends surrounding staff and harassing them until they get what they want and it can go on for a while. I've seen staff reduced to tears because of the intimidation and it never stops at one staff member it's not uncommon to see three or four nurses and one or two doctors trying to appease the unhappy group and it just repeats and repeats.

I even asked two security guards at the main entrance to the royal infirmary last year why they were not intervening as one such group was physically pushing and screaming in the faces of two nurses only to be told they are instructed not to get involved because of the racism issue and that specially trained staff would deal with it. I know it's not a countrywide issue but in both the royal infirmary and the general hospital it's a regular incident day in and day out taking up staff and time that should not be lost in that way.

Closing any of the three hospitals would make a deteriorating situation even worse and would seriously hinder patient care and in that regard these closures will have a wider impact. Mine is one local aspect on how resources are wasted I'm guessing every area has identifiable wastage that cutting out would achieve more then just cut cut cut of services.

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http://www.nhsconfed.org/resources/k...ics-on-the-nhs

NHS spending has gone up by nearly 80% in 12 years - the population of the U.K. has increased by around 10% in the same time period.

Managers and senior managers accounted for 2.35 per cent of the 1.318 million staff employed by HCHS and GP services across the NHS in 2015.

Kings Fund Myth Busters

Re: NHS Cuts
 

Maybe what's needed is more good managers and fewer inept ones? It might also help if those who fail miserably weren't re-recruited by the NHS somewhere else but it's hard to find out how common that is.

I still think a big problem is the outrageous cost of PFI and inefficiency in procurement which must inevitably impinge on the NHS's ability to deliver the required levels of service. An organisation the size of the NHS ought to be able to source equipment, supplies etc. at exceptionally keen prices but seems to do the opposite.

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Yes it was £350 million not 100 million.. so how about
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/08/3.jpg

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Well whatever the figure turns out to be, they can't allocate it to anything until they've saved it. Furthermore, when they do, it'll be up to HMG, largely the PM and the Chancellor of the Exchequer (both of whom were in the remain camp), to decide how any money is spent not those who actually made the claims.

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Do you mean they made promises they couldn't carry through on? ;)

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Yes like all politicians since time began and anyone that voted the way they did based off the politicians rather then their own research deserves what they get really and there were probably equal groups on both sides who did that.

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Promises? I'm not sure they promised anything - how could they? The caption highlighted above quotes "Let's give our NHS the £350m...." It doesn't say "If we win the vote we promise to spend £350m extra on the NHS".

Given that HMG was in favour of remaining, it was always going to be the case that the leave side would not be able to force the issue even if they won the argument and the vote. Even now HMG is not legally bound to do anything. The extent to which any promises some of the leave side made are carried through will only be known after the event at which point it'll be up to those who make the decisions to justify them and explain what happened to the claimed £350m which was indeed a central issue during the campaign. If it turns out that the actual savings are far less than claimed, Boris and those of his chums who went down that route will have been made to look more than a tad duplicitous and will have to face their critics and the electorate next time out.

Did anyone really think that the leave group would be handed ultimate power to force through their objectives in the event of them winning? Did they promise it would happen or were they arguing for it to happen? It's now up to the govt. to carry out the wishes of the majority and I'm sure that those who campaigned and voted for the money saved to be spent on the NHS will want to see that it is spent in that manner but they can hardly be blamed if May and Hammond think differently.

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My GP surgery has cut GP appointment on Wednesday and Friday pm, reason no doctor available which means cut backs.

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Perhaps if generation snowflake weren't filling surgeries with their snotty nosed children all the time or running to the doctor every time they grazed a knee or had a slight cold there might be a bit more resource to deal with real problems.

People used to know how to deal with minor ailments and first aid. Now they just run to the doctors or A&E. No surprise that the NHS is buckling under the strain.

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The major drive of NHS utilisation continues to be, by a mile, the elderly and an ageing population. Longer lives are not always healthier ones.

If 'Generation Snowflake' try to get emergency GP appointments for things like colds or grazed knees they generally get kicked back, or sent to a minor injuries unit. That's what receptionists are for, to police shorter term appointments.

Re: NHS Cuts
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37221250

Nice work if you can get it eh?

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

There's also the issue of overcautiousness IMHO. Whenever ambulances have been called to Osem Jnr #2 it seems to be the default position of crews to want to take him to A&E regardless of anything else. I understand why they do this but on almost all occasions it has proved entirely unnecessary and involved hours of waiting in already overstretched A&E depts. They'll argue it's precautionary which of course it is but there's an element of back covering too I believe. Quite understandably nobody wants to be accused of and possibly sued for negligence so the easiest option, if there's any doubt, gradually becomes to pass the buck and refer people on for treatment. Quite what the answer is I have no idea.

Re: NHS Cuts
 

Because that money was spent badly.

I remember all the hype about the large salary increases for nurses, enhanced contracts for GPs and so on where money was been thrown down the drain. Also that the extra money new labour provided was actually not enough anyway.

---------- Post added at 16:51 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

The 80% doesnt mean its not underfunded. Also thats a central figure, often central figures hide regional problems. e.g. similar to the claims like immigration has no affect on availability of social housing, it doesnt when looking at nationwide stats, but does when looking at regional stats.

Finally my comments on budget increases are concentrating on the increases since labour lost power when the policy changed to "match inflation".

You picked your stats I pick mine. :)

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Further to my post above there's this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-37410464

It'll be interesting, probably maddening, to find out where he winds up and what the details of any pay-off he gets will be.

Re: NHS Cuts
 

We have just become over bloated with administrative staff we have no shortage of those and often they outnumber the actual service providers by a good distance. Labour are the worst ones for bloating the public sector always helps to massage figures when you can create jobs plus it makes your opponents look bad when they have to come in and clean up the mess. There's no shortage of cash in the UK there's just a lousy tendency to spend it badly and those ultimately responsible for bad spending seem to always get another job within the public sector.

If they want to do league tables lets have one's for the top level administrative staff so we can all see who spends it and what they spend it on. My guess is that some in the public sector who think nothing of blowing money at the moment wouldn't be quite so free with it if they could easily be identified and tied to the wasted money.

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ester-37499240
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...yside-37499238
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-37499233

Step by step, and rather more quickly than predicted, the NHS is going bust. About time we all woke up and demanded our politicans act instead of being obsessed with Brexit. We need to properly fund it even if that means increased taxes and accept the NHS may have to cut back on what it offers.

If I was cynical, which of course I'm not ;), when it does collapse the Govt. will claim there's no alternative but to bring their private sector chums to the rescue. However that still isn't going to magically make nurses appear, particularly if they are EU citizens who we've said ta ta to or made clear they're not welcome.

I've been at a University open days recently , all subject talks seemed to be packed. However he nursing courses all looked to be deserted..... Withdrawal of bursaries was a cracking idea to solve the nursing recruitment crisis. We expect nurses to take out a massive loan to train and look after us, and get a very poor pay compared to other graduates at the end of it. I think the kids are very wise to avoid it and we are in big trouble whether in we go private or use the NHS.

The biggest mystery is why Jeremy Hunt still in post, and what is he doing, buying more healthcare shares ?

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Quote above from Hugh, a Conservative Party member.

People can be tied to wasted money much the same as they can in the private sector, but why let facts get in the way of a good, baseless, ideological rant?