Normandy siege
 

cut.

link

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The way this is going there will soon be retaliation strikes aimed at muslims. There are fanatics on both sides of this.

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And of course that's what the likes of ISIS want. They don't care how they bring us down or what the rationale (if any) of the murderers is (black, white, male, female, Muslim, Christian, sane, insane) because anything which undermines our society is good news for them and if they can take credit so they will. The enemy already within us are their tools and we've allowed intolerance to be bred amongst us...

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Odd that, daesh hate being called daesh. Pain of death is you call them that.

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Just another day in "diversity" europe.Unfortunately the new normal.

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Well it's easy to foresee a situation in which all sorts of sad, gullible, vulnerable, confused or mentally ill people might claim to be supporting their aims without knowing too much about who they are or what they really represent. Indeed some of these people may have no real connection with Islam at all.

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If you are a true muslim, such acts are totally against your religion.

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islami..._jurisprudence

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So what? :confused:

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So your solution is to let them continue unmolested and escalate the level of violence of their actions, because some point they are going to get tired and give up?:rolleyes: Has that strategy ever worked anywhere?

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I have no idea where all that came from mate. Have you been reading what I've been writing in numerous related posts/threads here? :shrug:

If you can find a single example of where I've said any of that please show me but I won't be holding my breath.

There is no true solution to this problem, certainly not an easy one. We have tolerated intolerance for far too long and now it's going to bite us. We need to balance being tough on the terrorists and challenging the intolerance which successive govts. have turned a blind eye to in the name of political correctness and multiculturalism. Sadly, because it's been allowed to take root like Japanese knotweed, it isn't going to be easy, painless or quick but that I'm afraid is the best we can do to combat the cancer which is spreading within our society.

We also need to be far more careful about whom we allow into this country - there are quite enough already here who would do us harm and we're going to have our work cut out dealing with them let alone importing more legally under the guise of refugees or illegally on the back of lorries.

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The only answer is another ground offensive to eradicate the Islamic State.

Remove them and their propaganda.

It is the only way, If this carries on I can France invoking NATO. If Trump gets in he has already said he will declare war against ISIS.

If there aren't troops back in Iraq and in Syria by 2017 I'll be amazed.

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I think we should have intervened in Syria previously but would that fix this problem now? ISIS are, as far as I have read, being pushed back at this point. They pretty much left Iraq a while ago and are losing ground in Syria.

The thing is it's a lot harder to stop some random person who has conspired with no-one from killing people in the name of ISIS. They don't need to exist as a coherent force for these things to happen.

As for Trump given his previous comments of killing innocent people (if they're related to less innocent people) and excusing his troops from any war crime violations I am not sure he would do anything but make things a lot worse.

---------- Post added at 19:09 ---------- Previous post was at 19:06 ----------

It helps to point that this isn't Muslims vs the World but Islamic Extremists vs Muslims & the Rest of the World. We don't want to do their propaganda for them.

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That'd be why the vast majority aren't engaged in terrorism and the like.

What we mustn't do however is to allow extremist 'teaching' and ISIS propaganda to go unchallenged because it's that which is causing ordinary people to be drawn into intolerance and extremism.

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If you say so

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Got any figures on how many Christians think homosexuality should be illegal?

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In 2010, around 42% thought homosexuality was always wrong or almost always wrong...

http://www.brin.ac.uk/figures/attitu...ds-gay-rights/

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Its pretty irrelevant what Christians think as generally they're not likely to kill you for being gay, they're more likely to pray for what they think is a sinner than throw them of a roof or hang them, still don't let that stop anyone from trying to divert attention from the real problem at hand.

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They have no where near left Iraq, they still control one of the major cities - Mosul.

They have been pushed back slightly, and for sure they're not gaining any new ground but they still have a large footprint.

We need to take away their "state", whilst they can still claim to have a caliphate the nutters around the world will think they have a cause to follow.

It's human nature that no one will back a loser. if ISIS are seen to be beaten, you can bet that killings in the name of ISIS will reduce.

It's not a cure all, the jihadists will still be out there and will no doubt try to form another group. Many ISIS were formally Taliban or Al Qaeda and they need to be rooted out and eliminated.

But we need to take away their state, it's the only way.

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But we were discussing (regarding the survey quoted) the attitudes of Muslims in the UK....

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Nope, but do you happen to have any figures on christians who have sympathy for people who take part in suicide bombing to fight injustice or how many sympathise with people who take part in violence against those who mock Jesus?

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But the attitudes of Muslims lead to many, many deaths. The attitudes of christians to those same things don't :shrug:

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As most of you are aware I'm not religious in anyway but on the topic of terrorism you can't compare Christians to Muslims while there are a few extreme belief Christian groups they don't come close to the damage and death that Islamic extremists do. Islamic extremists see zero problem in killing anyone who doesn't agree with them or breaks any of the laws they themselves break often. I have never seen or heard of an instance where a media company was attacked for putting an image of Jesus in any article or had death threats levelled at them.

The biggest problem in dealing with this is that while many moderate Muslims would never commit a terrorist act there is a sizable group that would support it or at the very least wouldn't work with us to prevent it. Core principles of Islam are in direct contradiction to the society we have built in the West and the level of integration is low. Not all Muslims are our enemy but unless all non extremist Muslims start to help solve the problem and actually view us as fellow citizens on an equal level we are going to continue to see problems occur and eventually a backlash that will as it always does hit the wrong one's.

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I don't think the problem is anywhere as simple as Muslims = Bad, Christians = Good. Not that I think that is what you are saying, but many people do. It's also not as simple as saying good Muslims should condemn the bad. Do we ask that good christians condemn the actions of bad? As for whether extremist christians do as much damage as extremist muslims, they don't generally, but there have been quite a few incidents in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ...#United_States

The problem is disillusionment. Young people in general are apparently feeling that they are excluded from their community. I suspect this is leading to them finding their own groups. In some cases, it's gangs. In others, Daesh (ISIS) have been surprisingly effective at recruiting these people.

I have it on good authority that this problem is particularly acute in Muslim communities, with massive divisions between the Muslim elders and young people.

Excluding a group because of their religion is not going to help this problem. If anything, it will make it worse. Why should a young Muslim care for a community that rejects him based purely on the colour of his skin, or what religion he chooses, or has been bought up to believe? Most people know it is bad to kill, but the psychological conditioning that prevents us killing can be bypassed with careful programming. This is something that, again, Daesh have been effective at taking advantage of.

I think that society (as a whole) needs to tackle the problem. I don't know how we are going to do it, but I think we need to work with Islam rather than just condemn it because it doesn't condemn it's own believers, or exclude people because of their beliefs.

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:tu:

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It's now a question of time we've wasted a lot in the past and I don't think we have much in the future before the right wing start to gain traction and whilst it's true not all Muslims are bad the community as a whole knows about extremism and rarely confronts it allowing it to spread. There is a reluctance to confront extremism in mosques with most preferring to move to another mosque as though small in number the extremists are very good at intimidating people and that's made easier by them grouping in small geographic area's. There is a huge internal conflict within islam in the UK between how I'd put it modernists and traditionalists and it's again another issue not being addressed so the battle lines are becoming more pronounced.

The two main friends I have that are Muslim don't go to their mosque anymore because of the element and both say they bought it to the attention of the imans to no avail simply told to follow the style of Islam that best suited them. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a community to help in eradicating an extremist element in their community especially if that element may end up mounting an attack. Perhaps we have become too tolerant and haven't forced the adaptation to our values and beliefs and now we and their community will suffer because of it.

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Hate crime has risen in the UK (apparently) 53% increase against muslims, why is that no surprise when people in France and Germany are being murdered on mass for no reason whatsoever.

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Also depends on what is considered a 'hate crime'

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:tu:

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My shia receptionist once brought her (moderate) imams attention to one of their flock who had been expressing extremist views. He told her that "a brother doesn't inform on a brother" :(

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Yes exactly we were discussing Muslims but the exact type of wet liberal political correctness that has caused the rise of trump and farage couldn't possibly allow any criticism of Islam without bringing other religions into it, doesn't matter that vast swathes of Islamic government's execute homosexuals let's focus on Christians as well.

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this is the fundamental issue.

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In the past i have stood up for Islam and Muslims on principle but of late i have found my 'faith' that ,that is a correct assessment rocked quite severely .What i have noticed in the face of all the atrocities from this year alone is that all the 'peaceful' Muslims have done absolutely didley squat to showcase their religion as a peaceful religion .I have argued with countless posters about Islam being a peaceful religion but if the subscribers to that religion cannot show that then how the hell is anyone else from outside the religion supposed to tolerate it

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And with the muslim world there are many "flavours" of islam, many of which hate each other. Our governments are seen to be siding with one of more "flavours" and that makes us an enemy too. Right down to Joe Public who possibly did not vote for the government in power, But islam is contrary to our "democratic" methods of government.