Would you...........
 

If Britain was not in the EU and the vote on the 23rd was a vote to join the EU how would you vote?

Taking into account all you know of the EU, From how it works, immigration, the various member countries current economic situations, future countries that will potentially join, the way the EU can over rule British law. etc etc.

So would you vote to join the EU if we were not currently part of it?

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Thing is, if you were outside of it, you wouldn't really know what it was like.

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No I wouldn't vote to join just as I'll be voting to leave it this week.

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I disagree, with 24 hour news channels, an visiting other European countries we would know some facts.

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Well it seems that even being in the EU people still don't know what it's about.

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If the National feeling had been weighed against joining the EU then I think that Britain, rather than completely stay out of the EU, could well have opted to follow the route of Switzerland who in 1972/73 choose to sign a free-trade agreement followed some time later by bilateral agreements but not formally choosing full membership.

Subsequent developments mainly, as fas as I can see, concerning funding issues and the free movement of all member nations finally became too much of an issue for the Swiss and in March this year the Swiss National Council voted to withdraw its suspended application for EU membership.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switze...nion_relations

So .... Hindsight bares heavily on my answer to the question posed on this thread. Considering the idealist views I held in the early 70s I would still have wanted to join together with the rest of Europe, but with hindsight I realise I would have wanted to retain more of the things that made Britain the country I love than we were allowed to retain. Switzerland managed to keep their identity and control of much of their own independence but in the end they have withdrawn from a United Europe and I wait to see with interest what happens next with them. As will, I am sure, the Netherlands who are also questioning whether they made the right decision all those years ago.

http://townhall.com/columnists/bgasc...ve-eu-n2180133

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No, never.

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Knowing what I now do it's got to be a big fat NO!

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Correct ,back in the 60s-70s when we joined and even earlier before we joined there was no internet or 24hr news to gather information so it was a lot easier for the politicians to limit the information given to us. I would say that if the EU was suggested nowadays with all it's "ever closer political and monetary union" it wouldn't get the time of day from the electorate .

A better question would be "knowing what we know now would the politicians have allowed us the internet " they must really hate us knowing stuff

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LOL I like that, and its true too.

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The internet is showing up politicians for the opportunists and chancers a lot of them are. Not that long ago it was virtually impossible for ordinary people to access documents, speeches, comments, articles etc. to support any argument or prove a point. Now the steady stream of lies, weasel words, hypocrisy and deceit is all too readily available for those who care to look and it's not a pretty sight.

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Join and be given a large chunk of migrants (economic and asylum seekers) to house, feed and clothe? And bail out the Euro-failed states and the new ones on the horizon? Plus hand over power to obviously arrogant unelected officials with their noses deep in the EU trough?

I didn't vote YES to the Common Market, I would have to be declared insane to vote to join the EU!

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Just ask your "remain" friends... Hand on heart would they vote to join if we were not part of the EU.

Ask your "leave" friends do they really want an end to immigration? Or do they just want to control the laws of the U.K.?

We can still have open borders, it will just be up to us. Remain have been vile, leave have been weak. No matter what happens vote them all out lol.

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I think the campaigns on both sides have been both vile and weak. Neither of them have produced any actual evidence to back up what they claim are facts. Leave have promised things that could end up costing way more than the money will we save. Remain don't really talk about what concessions David Cameron did manage to negotiate. Both campaigns have either lied, or quoted sections of reports out of context.

Personally, I will be voting Remain. Not because I want a greater integration with Europe (I don't), but because while I can accept that leaving the EU MAY be better for us, with the economy still recovering from recession, I don't think we can afford the gamble that it may make things worse. After all, when our trade deals expire (and they will expire at some point, although not for several years after we leave) and we negotiate new deals, we won't be negotiating on behalf of an organisation that has 4 of the top 10 economies in the world. (Source http://www.investopedia.com/articles...-economies.asp) and a population of 742 million (source: Google).

We will be negatiating on behalf of a country that has 1 of the top economies and a population of 70 million, which isn't nearly as good a deal to offer, and there will be a price, even if that price is a worse deal.

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Do you really think the EU gets us a better deal? I mean if it does explain why we currently pay more for cars/houses/electronic goods/food/gas/electric/petrol than most of Europe? The economic argument fails, market forces will dictate the prices we pay. An with tariffs removed from none EU goods a lot of fruit/veg/white goods/cars will potentially fall in price.

I suspect the truth of the matter is, if we leave nothing really changes but we get to make and live by our own laws/rules.

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The price of those products is nothing to do with the EU but everything to do with exchange rates and taxes.

also I would still vote to join.

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I think you'll find the price of those products has a lot to do with the EU and its say over tariffs/VAT on fuel etc. You seem to pro remain, but you don't seem to know much about the EU other than what very rich people have told you on your telly box.

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Regarding dealing with other countries, I would say it does. Think about it logically for a second. You are a country looking to negotiate export deals. Who are you going to be more interested in selling to (hence more likely to offer sweetners)? An organisation that represents 700 million potential customers, or one that represents 70 million? I've worked in exports, and while I was never in a position to see the deals or influence them, I have worked with several foreign owned multi national companies that did establish bases in the UK BECAUSE it gave them easy access to Europe. I am not saying they will leave in the event of Brexit. I don't know that they will, but it will be a factor for other multinationals looking to set up a european base.

Regarding houses. The EU has nothing to do with that. We don't import or export houses. The problem there is our obsession with viewing housing as an investment rather than a necessity. The other problem is that our government has repeatedly underinvested in social housing, and still is, trying to disguise that fact by requiring that large scale private developments offer a certain percentage of affordable housing. A percentage which, despite the government's assurances to the contrary, seems negotiable judging by the number of developments around my area where the government has allowed a considerably lower number of affordable properties in a development than they should, often overruling the local councils.

Another problem, particularly in Central London is foreign investors buying up houses, and the government seemingly encouraging this. Leaving Europe will have little or no impact on this as a lot of the investors don't live in this country (or even in Europe in a lot of cases). Again, the government NEEDS to take responsibility for this.

Most european countries, from what I have seen, do not teach their kids they need to own a house or flat to prosper. We do. Of course, Most european countries also have access to a lot more land, which does keep housing prices down.

Regarding petrol, again, the Government needs to take responsibility here as most of what we pay for petrol is tax.

Finally, regarding consumer goods. As you say, Market forces are at play here. Companies will always charge what the market will pay. If they charge more, they run the risk of losing sales and possibly bankruptcy. Unfortunately, the amount of noise the media is making online makes it difficult to find any hard evidence of how much the EU charges as a tariff on the EU cars, so I will not argue about the tariffs. I don't like tariffs anyway, and in my searches I did find some evidence that the EU is attempting to negotiate with certain countries (Japan mainly), and one of the offers on the table is removing those tariffs. However, I do feel that our own government could do a *lot* more to defend our consumer rights, and possibly even impose price restrictions.

On a related note, I find it surprising that so many people are willing to trust our government to run the country with no outside intervention. This is the same government that has repeatedly put the needs and desires of big business ahead of those of the people.

The one fact in all this is that NO ONE KNOWS what will happen if we leave the EU. Even Nigel Farage admits that (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7082126.html). As I have said both on this forum and elsewhere, leaving the EU could be the best thing Britain has ever done. it could also turn out to be the worst. With the economy in the state it is in (which was originally caused by lending problems in the US economy), I don't feel we can afford to risk throwing ourselves into the unknown like this.

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So after typing an entire essay your conclusion is no one knows what will happen? Correct BT I suspect nothing changes but we control our own laws/rules. We export a lot to the USA and China and not so much to the EU. Our deals with the USA and China will probably become even better.

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Actually, the "Essay" was just answering the points you raised, and making the point that I think our own government is far more responsible for our current predicament than they will admit, and are happy to blame any outside organisation (the EU just happens to be handily available).

That no one knows what will happen is not my conclusion. Most of the articles I have read on the subject say know one nows, and even Nigel Farage has admitted it. I am therefore happy to regard it as a fact, and not merely a conclusion. I would even go so far as to argue that it is more factually correct than anything EITHER campaign has put out.

BTW, it is hard to quantify how much of our exports are to EU countries as a lot of the exports go to Rotterdam which is a hub, and are often sent on to other countries from there, but the Office for National Statistics estimates that around 46% of our exports DO go to EU countries.. https://fullfact.org/europe/do-half-...rts-go-europe/

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LOLOLOLOLOL, Oh dear, We know what was sent outside the EU, We know full well what was sent outside the EU. Its not hard...If you don't know what you're talking about don't talk. But for customs/export/tax purposes everything leaving the EU is registered and reported, I worry about our education system.

Do you think its hard to know how many parcels were sent from Glasgow to London because they were sent via a Leeds hub on the way?

So remain are telling us its impossible to tell what goods left the EU and people are panic buying fuel, seriously?


(Could someone please save Stuart from himself?)

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That fact did not come from Remain. It came from the Office of National Statistics, but if you'd bothered to do any research, or even read my post, you'd have known that..

I don't need saving. I can think of several on here that do..

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Absolutely wouldn't join the EU. Would be fine with EFTA - where we're likely to end up anyway.