Mass shooting in Florida
 

20 dead thus far and over 40 injures in yet another mass shooting in the US in Orlando, Florida. This comes the day after The Voice US star Christina Grimmie was shot dead in Orlando.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/36510272

Calling it an act of terrorism but no word on domestic of foreign. With claims the FBI are suggesting evidence is Islamic ideology whilst conflicting reports claim they're leaning towards domestic and a potential hate crime.

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A disturbing side fact. This is now the 173rd mass shooting of 2016 in the US. This is also one of the worst.

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Sorry but we should stop covering these stories, I mean in a country where the right to carry a gun rules over everything, including child safety.

Do they carry stories about murders in the UK?

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More guns is clearly the answer... :rolleyes:

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Trump will go to town on this story.

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It seems it was a hate/terrorist crime against the LGBT community. 20 dead so far it seems making it one of the deadliest shootings in US history which already has a lot.

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Suspect named as Omar Mateen according to American news outlets.

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50 killed now.

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My thoughts go to the people of Florida and hope the figures don't go up further, I'm not sure this is the time for any debate on gun control right now it should be about the people and their relatives.

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If they didn't make any meaningful changes after Sandy Hook then I doubt 50 people bring murdered in a nightclub will result in any changes either.

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Shocker, AR-15 yet again. Legally owned too I bet. They can rant about their rights all they want. I can't think of a single reason for any civilian on this planet to own an assault rifle. Why do they need an assault rifle and not a predetermined caliber handgun? Its not perfect but its a start. Seriously though the right to bear an assault rifle to defend yourself? Against what? A small army? These are weapons of war.

I'd agree this wasn't the time to debate gun control and thoughts should be on the relatives but seriously it'll be 2 months before the same thing just happens again. I feel for those involved, especially the mother of a victim that had microphones shoved into her face whilst clearly distressed but the fact is people will also die in the next one. They're getting great at responding to them but have absolutely no way to prevent them if anybody can just grab an assault rifle

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Just heard on LBC that the suspect's father has confirmed that his son has recently become increasingly angry having witnessed 2 men kissing...

There's really nothing more harmful than intolerance in a tolerant society.

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Yes there is: intolerance in a society where gun ownership is a constitutional right.

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I wonder how much the religion of peace and it's views on homosexuality had to do with this?
:dozey:

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It didn't. He ain't no Muslim, bruv, and any religious beliefs he may think he had were in no way related to his actions. No way, shape or form.

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True, but if we go down that road we may as well ban any way that someone could kill another person and even then muslim fanatics will simply manufacture home made bombs. :(

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Not really.

We (they) just need to ban the means of killing people on an industrial scale. The more difficult it is to make a point by killing someone, the fewer people will try.

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One of my soon to be ex Facebook friends are going on more about the gunman being a Muslim, rather than ban guns.

Oh yeah no surprise that they are pro Trump.

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Irrespective of the Islamic terrorism issue it is not a good idea to allow access to so many guns. The Republicans blocked a bill which would have looked to ban suspected terrorists, those known to Homeland security, from getting guns! Bizarre.

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That's pretty much it. People can say you'll have to ban this that and the other.. Or you could just think logical and ban the weapons capable of mass murdering civillians that are legably purchasable.

People make homemade bombs in numerous countries, if some nutter really wanted to he'd do it here too, that can't be helped in all cases.

The main issue is still the ability to purchase an assault rifle and there's absolutely nothing stopping you appearing at a crowded event and popping shots off.

But I'm sure the NRA will call for folks to carry their army grade weapon at all times to protect themselves. Absolutely absurd that any civilian on this planet would actually need an assault rifle.

It would be as simple as limiting sales to handguns only with restricted calibers. I say would because the damage has already been done. They'll never be able to disarm the US now. Its far too late. But you know, a right to bear arms would never lead to absolute psychopaths going on a rampage.

This is the third biggest mass shooting globally that isn't a warzone.

So hell bent of fighting a war on terror everywhere else but failing to protect their own from the madmen in their own back yard.

Re: Mass shooting in Florida
 

To be fair, Islam is probably the reason for these killings. As I said to Chris, they would have manufactured bombs to get the job done if guns were banned :shrug:

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I agree.

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Just musing......what is Switzerland doing right that the USA isn't? :confused:

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Mandatory national service might have something to do with it.

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That must have some sort of impact but it doesn't stop a non Swiss nutter (muslim or otherwise) from going postal anyway.....or perhaps they have gun laws that limit purchases to citizens?

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A few thoughts:

Re: Mass shooting in Florida
 

They would but as has been shown before its sometimes easier to prevent a home made bomb at the source via various security organisations. Whereas its almost impossible to prevent a mass shooting when you're legally selling them the weapon to cause it and they've shown up clean in checks.

It doesn't have to be a Muslim at all either. Adam Lanza wasn't a Muslim. No one denies what you're saying but this was another case of a citizen being able to use a legal assault rifle to murder others regardless of it was religiously motivated or not.

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadlie...ting-rampages/

Count the Muslims.

Re: Mass shooting in Florida
 

Gun permits in Switzerland are tied to competence. You have to pass a test. That would probably weight the ownership towards Swiss, rather than immigrants, who have done military service. That same sample would also be more likely to have a healthy attitude towards firearms.

Lots of the real gun nuts in America are members of local militia groups, also something justified by the wording of their constitution, though it's unclear how many of them have been members of the US Army.

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Attitudes to firearms is the problem not the firearms themselves, do most of you realise how deadly a knife can be in the right hands or the number of people you can kill quickly with a knife sorry but unless we are all going to wrap ourselves up in bubble wrap and take away everything that could potentially be used as a weapon there is little can be done about nutters. This coward appears to have recently plunged off the cliff of sanity and decided to kill people yes he did it with a firearm he could have chosen numerous other methods and achieved the same thing.

We need to concentrate on better identifying those individuals going off the deep end and deal with them before they carry out any plan and sorry but the family of this coward cannot tell me there were zero warnings he was going to do something.

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They've just shown the crying mother interview on TV. Shoving microphones into her face instead of offering her assistance to locate or find information on her potentially dead son.

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A knife in the right hands? Probably not deadly enough to wipe out 50 people in a matter of minutes. Giving people a fighting chance against a sole wielder. Even a hangun wielder would have given some of these people a fighting chance. What chance does any unarmed person have against 30 bullets a mag assault rifle?

Nobody denies madmen pull the trigger but no man sane or psychopath should own an assault rifle for whatever reason.

https://everytownresearch.org/wp-con...ity2charts.png

Handguns vs Assault rifle (red) in mass shootings. I think it speaks for itself

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As a member of a gun club, I agree.

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Obama said this one week ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSEo...ature=youtu.be

Depressingly prescient.

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That too. :tu:

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CNN pointed out that when people go into the building they have to tune out the incessant ringing of the victims' phones as people try to reach them. :(

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I think most people would be able to differentiate, in terms of risk, between a semi-automatic assault rifle, capable of killing rapidly at ranges upto 500m, and a hand held knife.

Can you list the US massacares where the victims have been killed by knifes? It would be interesting to compare them to those where guns were used ..

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There are an awful lot of things people could do if they were determined that cannot be prevented. What is possible is to raise the bar higher so that a greater degree of determination is required and detection likelihood increased.

Shooting people up with an assault rifle is possible in the UK, too, however the rifle has to be smuggled as you can't buy one at a local convention or store which eliminates many as they don't have the contacts or patience to obtain them and widens the detection vector for law enforcement.

50 people could be killed with a bomb, however that bomb would come in a form factor somewhat less convenient than a rifle, or would require someone to purchase attention-grabbing quantities of materials to produce the explosive.

Should we repeal the drink-driving laws because they are wrapping us in bubble wrap? The requirement to have a licence to drive? There are a bunch of regulations surrounding us that are a compromise between complete liberty and safety, surely some common sense gun controls such as not allowing terrorist sympathisers to own guns or private citizens to own military rifles are on the reasonable side of that compromise?

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Yes of course firearms are easier but if they are not on the table there are many other options for those determined to kill people the object people choose to use is not the main problem. Why is there the attitude in the states towards these mass killings it is not something you see anywhere else in the world. They are rare events elsewhere but depressingly common in the states and I think the way to prevent them isn't in trying to control it ban firearms mainly because that's pointless now there are already so many firearms in the states they don't have the means to do it.

I don't agree with ordinary people having assault weaponry but go to any gun range in the states and you'll quickly see an ar15 is one of the least worrying firearms there it is absolutely staggering what weapon system ordinary Americans can own. If your a nutter a sig 226 with aftermarket drum mags will allow you to do as much damage in a short amount of time and chances of getting those controlled in the states is as likely as me winning the lottery just isn't going to happen. They have to start working on the attitude and identifying the cause of that if they are to stop this.

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The gun makes it a lot easier though.

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The point of banning assault weapons is not all geared at removing the weapons from available use. It is sending a message as well: the message that society does care and society can be responsible in its custody of care of those who are unable to defend themselves.

The (NRA) argument that gun carrying indivuals would stop these massacres is specious: who would be allowed (by gate security) to take a gun into events, parties, shows, etc.

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You could easily use a car, or other vehicle, to kill a lot of people, if you wanted.

Yes, guns in the hands of an idiot are dangerous, so are many other thngs.
Not everyone who owns a gun is a nutter, or terrorist, or mass killer (I'm quite sane thanks ;)).

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In this instance banning guns probably wouldn't have done any good anyway since it is looking more and more likely it was a terrorist attack as IS have claimed responsibility .

Unless all the guns sold in America are going to be reclaimed by the authorities and destroyed then banning guns is pointless for the purposes of restricting the availability .We have fire arms bans in place in this country and it is ridiculously easy to get a gun especially when we have characters like this turning blank pistols into deadly fire arms

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Tend to agree.

The Yanks are a very different culture to us and its in their DNA as well as their constitution about guns. So, they shouldn't be surprised when these kind of incidents keep happening.

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But by banning assault rifles and pretty much all other other guns now, you'd stop new psychopaths getting weapons and ammunition.

I agree though, you'll never disarm America as a whole, too many guns out there. I'm expecting another Waco type event soon, as "Christian" fundamentalism is on the rise again.

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link

Western capitalist democracy gave women and gays equal footing in society; Islam has arrived to roll the clock back.:(

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There is no doubt there are aspects of Islam that do not fit in uk society and don't belong either but how do we resolve the issue any criticism of Islam except the extremist element is quickly shut down by the usual retorts of racism or religious freedom.

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Two sets of people make the criticism though. People like yourself that can make a comment without suggesting all Muslims are terrorists but can point out that Islamic extremism is a serious issue. Then there's those chavvy types that go on a booze fueled rally chanting racial abuse and labelling all Muslims as terrorists.

The latter I've spoke about in other threads regarding an incident in which a group of Racist chavs smashed a coop window in the North East because 'Muslims are terrorist'

In reality they're just the new breed of football hooligan that get their fix from this. It then reflects badly on people led to believe they could make their voice heard by joining such a group, the BNP have had that problem since its inception.

I grew up with one of them, the most you can get out of him is a bunch of Racist videos on Facebook and "its a good laugh"

With all that in mind you still get people that can provide a good argument without resorting to stereotyping but I'm one of those that simply steps back from the debate incase I'm thought of as one of these real life trolls. I'm sure many others feel the same.

Instead of some form of debates we're getting EDL marches and counter marches which just leads to two groups of people hurling abuse at each other and making us all look daft. Which is funny because it brings to life chavvy Muslims. Literally identical to the yobs on the other side but a different religion. Absolute idiots.

The scenes of Dover and Birmingham are examples. The above is a very good reason why you're argument and anyone else's can be shut down with the racism card. The inability of some to behave themselves then gets ourselves stereotyped by those minorities that are similar to our yobs...

Luckily I can go see Mr Rai in his shop and buy whatever I need because he's a genuinely nice guy and doesn't believe I'm a racist chav, nor do I believe he's a Jihadi. Its relationships like this that are needed to create a worthy debate. Freedom of speech is great but there's just some people that shouldn't have it, white, Muslim, christian, black, whatever religion or ethnicity they are.

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Police are investigating reports that the gunman was himself gay and was a regular at the club

http://news.sky.com/story/1711641/or...-several-times

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Sounds like it's more related to his own sexual preferences than his religious. His dad had a few choice words to, classy individual whose views have almost certainly played a part in this, he should be arrested