Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

http://www.itv.com/news/2016-06-03/c...to-five-weeks/

I cannot believe that this hasn't been thought of before. I personally feel that school Summer holidays are to long anyway.

When l was at school, yes 40 years ago, we had five weeks, and my parents felt this far too long.

And you get half term as well, teachers say that they need there breaks as well.

I know several teachers, that actually go into school during the holidays, to do work - they volunteer, they are not forced to by the Head teacher.

I think that One Month for the Summer holidays, is Ok. Don't forget, after a few weeks, the kids get bored.

Know l agree totally, One month for Summer, and add it during the year

Re: I totally agree with the decision
 

Having more time off in cold and dark october, no thanks

Re: I totally agree with the decision
 

I think parents should be allowed to pick a week of school (outside of exam time or critical weeks as defined by the school) to take their children out if they want a holiday outside of peak times. Could help with the issue of having prices spike in the school holidays, although you could have to careful not to have massive spikes of children off at the same time around May/June/September....

Re: I totally agree with the decision
 

I call BS on this.

I know of no teachers who go into school because they feel like it. They go in because they have to in order to do what is demanded of them by the government and, in turn, the school.

You're implying that people are working their regular job, unpaid, for fun. One that already carries working weeks well above average, well above average rates of attrition and well above average stress levels for a salary that frankly sucks for post-graduate level employment.

Re: I totally agree with the decision
 

I like to go away to the sun in October, so would not mind it too much as it would mean less rushing about.

However, I suspect adding a week to the current (May) holiday would be a better choice for most.

You could split it, and add a few days to both, making them a week and a half, but I cannot see that being popular.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

The thing that gets me is when a pupil or pupils lose an unofficial day off school. it's bad. it's the end of the world. the school says it's irresponsible to the childs education.

then the same school says no school tomorrow. teacher training day! again!

no problem.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

What about the obvious matter of them being able to arrange the teaching around that KNOWN date? No point in planning to teach topic X one day if some children are not there. Then a different bunch of children are off when topic Y is taught. You end up having to go over the topics several times over to make sure that all the children have been taught all the topics.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Maybe if teachers didn't get 13 weeks a year holiday (way above any other profession) they wouldn't need to have 'training days' in term time and they wouldn't need to do so much work after school hours.Reducing school holidays would solve a lot of problems for teachers and parents but suggesting anything like that just sends the unions into apoplectic rage .

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

They're not reducing the holidays, just moving them around.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I know,i was suggesting reducing the holidays.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

If you had six weeks off at the height of summer you'd be upset if somebody suggested that the time off be in November for example. ;)

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

It's unpaid.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Your post include "parents but suggesting anything like that just sends the unions into apoplectic rage". That was suggesting that a proposal had been made and the unions had actually reacted to it. If you had said, "if anybody suggested reducing holidays, then the unions would object", that would be a hypothetical argument.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I live in Barnsley and as a parent of 3 I think that this is a good idea? Also I have a son that and think that goes to a special Autistic school in Wakefield and think that this would be good for them as well.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

So what ? i haven't questioned whether they get paid or not for the holidays ,i questioned the practicalities of long Easter/Christmas and summer breaks .If teachers where contracted for more than 195 days a year then they could justify better pay scales and not have to do so much work outside of contracted hours.We are not in Dickensian Britain anymore ,it is the 21st century where education is the key to everything and imo the whole system of pay and holidays for teachers needs re inventing and bringing into line with the rest of reality

---------- Post added at 11:29 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

You just read it bizarrely,in no way did i suggest that a proposal to reduce holidays had been made

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I thought most teachers were paid an annual salary, divided into twelve monthly payments?

Are you saying teachers* don't get paid over the summer break?

*I'm not including TAs and contract staff in this group

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I needed school holidays to recover and regain equilibrium..otherwise I'd have cracked under the pressure..oh and those armchair teachers among you need to actually give the job a go to find out just how stressful the job is.It can be like herding cats at times.

I would also like to point out that a teacher is there to teach the students not to be a childminder at the beck and call of parents.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Our summer holiday is 7 weeks - there is no half term this week because the summer holiday starts earlier, so they just tack that week on to the summer. Then, once every 4 years for reasons I've still not understood, they add another week. Our kids are off for 8 weeks this summer. Now *that* is too long.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

The holidays are unpaid. Their salary is based around term time and split into 12.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Anyone who works under a contract that stipulates a salary with an overtime built in, is never doing unpaid work for their employer, unless they are getting fewer than their stipulated holiday days as a result, or doing more than the working time directive allows. Not sure which of these might apply to a teacher though, just saying that working on a day when the kids aren't there is not necessarily unpaid.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

There is no overtime built in, genius, the directed hours are in theory the extent of the teacher's workload.

Loving the education experts who are clearly completely familiar with the teacher contracts weighing in. What would I know being married to a teacher and having actually read one of them?

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Wind your neck in ... the nature of my post should have been obvious, the phrase "Not sure which of these might apply to a teacher though" should have been a giveaway.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Teachers are salaried over 12 months ,they get paid for the 13 weeks holiday ,it doesn't matter how you try to spin it .
The main problem in my opinion is that contracted hours are almost equal to term time which is a problem .Why can't teachers be contracted to work all year round with 5.6 minimum weeks holiday the same as everyone else ? That way they wouldn't be doing so much work out of hours .

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Work out of hours doesn't always require contact time with students eg lesson preparation,marking,reports,paperwork.In fact it's why we are supposed to have non contact time during our timetables but if staff are absent then contact time is lost in covering absent teachers classes.Increasing the contact time by reducing holiday periods will not allow for the above.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Why can't teachers have contracts like everyone else ,at the moment they are contracted for 1265 hrs per 195 days a year with the extra clause saying that they must work such reasonable hours as to discharge their duties .Why can't teachers be contracted for lets say 40-45 hrs a week ,half that time will be for teaching in classrooms and the rest used for prep ,marking and training .If that happened then it make no difference to the teacher if the actual term time was changed

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I think you missed my point about the fact that non contact time can and is used to cover absent staff.As 3 lesson periods are the usual quota for non contact time at the bottom of the hierarchy (it increases as you move up the promotional scale) then teachers are going to be working before,after school and weekends as well as during school holidays to get some teacher chores done.Some jobs cannot be done while teaching.

I often had to stay late because as an art,3D art and pottery teacher so I could mark student's work because I couldn't take it home to do so.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Why have contact time different to other working time ? why not simply have working time for 40 -45 hrs a week that would cover teaching and prep work .It all seems overly and needlessly complicated to me.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

So are you suggesting that the students go home and we stay in school for part of the school working week?Because that's the only way it will work.

Plus what happens to after school activities.Drama club,art club,sports,detention? Will they be part of the 45 hrs a week?Or just be voluntary and unpaid.

Because that's basically how the system worked for years..WE got paid monthly even during school holidays and we gave of our time as and when directed and often at our own initiative.For example as an art teacher I had to set up after hours classes so students could come in and finish off course work on time for external exams.Same for the drama,music. Extra classes provided before school by the 'special needs' staff.

Education can't be and shouldn't be treated as a saleable commodity.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

My wife has worked as a teaching assistant for about 18 years now. She says that 4 weeks wouldn't be enough time for teachers to do planning ready for the kids to start in September as they would lose about 2 weeks of the 4 prepping for September

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Yes ,why not ? Teachers are already in school when the pupils are at home doing prep work or whatever ,what's wrong with doing that work as part of the working week .I am confused as to why you think it so awful to be in school when the pupils are at home

Our education system is totally different now compared to what it was .We no longer require children to work on farms during harvest season so why the hell do the children need to be off for such long breaks.By spreading the terms out more evenly across the year and increasing the contracted hours required of teachers they would have more time to do stuff .Trying to cram a years worth of education into 195 days is ridiculous in this day and age .


Actually it's only 190 days as 5 of those days are non contact days

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Teachers are not paid for the 13 weeks holiday. Try reading one of their contracts. It doesn't matter how you try to spin it, that's the contract. Changing them to the same holiday periods as other workers means paying them more as their contracted hours go up. I doubt that the government have any appetite for that.

A large part of the work teachers do out of hours is planning and marking. Planning is dependent on previous lessons, marking has to be done in a timely fashion else Ofsted get upset.

A lot of the work teachers do is reactive to events during contact time. What do you suggest teachers do working for weeks on end with no contact time? They can't plan their lessons for the next year. They can't save their marking up.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Interesting ... missus' SLA contract gives her 4 weeks paid holiday, to be taken as they arise, but not only is she unpaid for the summer break, she's not actually employed during that period. Nevertheless her salary is paid in 12 equal instalments.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Thats exactly how it works, you are paid for 4 weeks of holiday, but your actual payments are spread evenly across the year.

Anyone who says they have 13 weeks paid holiday is wrong, plain and simple.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

There is no holiday entitlement specified in the contract. Teachers are salaried for 12 months ,they get paid during the summer months regardless of whether they are in school or not so all this talk of working unpaid during holidays is quite frankly complete bollocks because as part of the contract they are required to work any reasonable hours even if that means going over the 1265 hrs and looking at the pay scales the wage isn't that bad for 195 days work

---------- Post added at 15:20 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------

As i just posted ,there is no holiday entitlement in a teachers contract because (presumably) they are only contracted for 195 days a year .They will however get statutory days the same as anyone else and they certainly do not do unpaid work

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I presume from that teachers are different then, I can only tell how the school support staff work (locally) since they also have the same "13 weeks" holidays (my other half works in a local school kitchen). Either way, they dont get 13 weeks paid holiday, and thier pay is evenly spread across the year, to avoid a big pay gap in the summer.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

So working outside of contracted time isn't unpaid work.

Makes perfect sense.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

As far as i know they are the only profession without any holiday entitlement written into their contracts,so ,yes , teachers are a special case and i still have to ask the question why is this so .It seems daft to me that we are trying to cram so much stuff into so short a time .

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:27 ----------

And if you read the contract you will see it quite clearly states that a teacher is required to work any reasonable hours to perform their duties ,this is covered in their salary and cannot be scheduled by their employer ,it is up to the teacher to manage that extra time as it is required .

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

When l went to school, yes, over 40 years ago. It was nearly the same as today. The only thing was you needed your brains to sort out questions, instead of computers, with possible answers.

But, we have the Government saying that children need education to go onto further education. Then just change the holiday system.

I simply cannot understand why they six weeks at Summer. Just give them One month, and just add those extra days throughout the year.

Some schools have two weeks Half term - why. Or Easter this year, they had two weeks, why.

I school time was 9am start and finish at 3.45.

Some schools near me start at 8.45 and finish at three

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Yes, well, fear not. The current government are busily ruining the developments in education since then and forcing students to learn via rote rather than learning creative problem solving because, you know, that's key in the workplace now. Rote learning is rigorous.

There's been a fortnight in between terms for ages? You want them to take days out of the summer and add them throughout the year, but are complaining about the length of holidays outside of the summer period?

Part-timer. I was 9-4.

Yet the kids for the most part leave far better educated than we were. Go figure. Less can sometimes be more.

Marty, you're back on my ignore list again so feel free to not waste your time responding. I have better things to do, even when wasting my time on here, than go back and forth with someone as obstinate as yourself. An authority on everything, utterly incapable of even entertaining anyone else's posting is tiresome. Your prodigious intellect is clearly wasted working in construction, you should be Professor of Everything in a red brick university.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

The contract here is somewhat different. Teachers are employed over the summer break by the LA however they are not paid for it. They are paid for the legally mandated minimum period of holidays and anything after those is unpaid.

This is how it's supposed to work in theory. Works quite differently on a day-to-day basis, at least in all the schools my wife has worked.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Summer holidays - that time of the year that parents realise how grossly underpaid teachers are.

Teaching is a job with a great deal of stress and hard work and the best teachers are the ones who put the time in out of hours to do the prep, learn the new stuff and work out how to communicate that. The easier the teacher seems to do their job is usually indicative of all that extra work. Now we live in a "nice" area and most pupils want to learn and most parents are supportive, that is also not always the case.

Teachers need that long summer to both have a holiday themselves (and their families) and also prepare for the next term/year. Not helped by someone central wanting to push more learning and earlier and marking/monitoring it. Pity both teachers and younger kids. Too little time for play and learning the basics in a fun way to accommodate some of the new targets.
===
Our previous primary head would let kids go on holiday during term time (within reason) as she took the view that the holiday would be as beneficial to their learning as being in school. I guess the depended on the child, parents, time, age and destination. So 2 weeks in the Greek islands with an able child and parents that would expose child to local culture would score higher than 2 weeks in Disney resort with a struggling child and parents who just wanted to take advantage of cheap prices. This freedom has now gone. We are taking our 2 out of last couple of days of term this year because it was only way to fit the time into other events. Not going to be a lot of teaching in that period, shame youngest will miss her last days at primary.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

just in case i confuse (dyslexic sometimes i get confused by my posts ;) )

1 I think most good teachers are underpaid and over worked

2 i dont agree that term time holiday are always detrimental and parents should be the ones deciding that

3 i think that messing about with the holidays is daft unless done nationally or at least making sure ALL local schools follow the same days where they are in the catchment stream ( i mean by that the feeder school where younger siblings may be and even the six form or colleges where older ones may be are synced else it makes it much harder for families)

however if we are going to muck about with holidays i would have thought it should involve moving exams to a different time of year when its not so hot the chances of hay fever are lower etc then move the holidays around to take advantage of the warmer weather and have a real discussion with parents and maybe even employers to get times and length to best suit the majority

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I simply read the contract YOU suggested we all read before having the audacity to comment on something nobody but yourself could possibly understand ,it really is quite simple

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

True.
Now, this is where I'll get shouted at by the parents, but I can see the problem the current system was meant to address.

Back when I went to school, some parents were taking their kids out of school 2 or 3 times a year, to go on Holiday. Others were taking their kids on holiday for up to month, In both cases, this was during term time, which may have been having severe negative effects on their kids education.

The current system is far from perfect. I think it could be made a lot better by banning holiday and travel companies from upping their prices during holiday time. After all, the travel industry is the only one that raises it's prices according to demand. You don't pay more for a TV, computer or car at certain times of the year, why should you be expected to pay more for air travel or a hotel?
I think to some extent, the Local Education Authorities have always been free to alter the holidays a little, but not sure how this works now, especially with the Academies which aren't usually LEA controlled.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

The reason you don't tend to pay more for a TV at certain times of the year is that the supply of TV's isn't restricted at those times of year. If there was a sudden large spike in demand for TV's for some weird reason you'd find prices would go up just like prices of HDDs went up when there were supply problems in the Far East a few years ago. As for travel, it's common to pay more for the same travel during peak periods because the same supply/demand argument applies.

During holiday times there is far more demand for the same supply so prices will go up and if companies were prevented from doing I'd have thought they'd have to cover that by increasing their prices for other times of the year.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Well us OAPs would be disadvantaged that's for sure.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

It's not just a case of putting prices up in the summer. They have to put prices down in quieter periods in order to compete for the reduced number of customers. These businesses have fixed costs and they need cash flow throughout the year.

You simply can't legislate to force them to reduce high season prices to match the low season ones. In many cases the low season prices barely cover operating costs.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I grew up in South Africa and while most of the country had 4 term school years, we in the Transvaal had 3 terms. Certainly our terms were longer but so were the holidays such that other provinces' holidays would fit inside ours.

This meant that we could go on holiday to places in the country where the local children would be in school for a couple more weeks, take advantage of cheaper prices and less queueing.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Yes that is very true and with the increasing burden of EU bureaucracy falling upon all and sundry, for small businesses (such as yourselves) particularly those fixed costs are not inconsiderable. In the UK at least, regardless of school, term times, the summer months are always going to attract a premium because good weather is such an important factor.

I'd imagine that the peak summer period is what keeps many a travel/holiday related business afloat in just the same way as retailers often rely on the Christmas period to generate the bulk of their profit for the year.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Great, there'll be an Afrikaaner voice in my head whenever I read your posts now, mon. :D

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

knew i missed something i should have added "as long as its not during exams and it not for more than what was the 10ish days"

i quite agree month long or multiple holidays that would be outside of reasonable ;)

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I believe there is a school in Marlborough, where the pupils still dress in Victorian Dress etc.
They start at 7.30 am each day, and therefore have a longer holiday. BUT. Education in this country has gone to pot. How can you educate kids for approx. 5 hours per day.
I started at 8.45am. First two lessons then a break. Then another two lessons to 12. Lunch break till 1245. Two lessons, then home.

IF. Teachers say its stressful job, why go into it. Teachers are NOT PAID ENOUGH money.
Some teachers, and l know of a few, that have been threatned with harm, or even knives.
My god when l went to school, if you threatened ANY teacher - you got caned.

This is what is wrong with Education today. When you are in school. You do as you are told, or you got punished.

Nowadays, if a pupil gets punished, the parents are into the school complaining about the little perishers.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

Victorian dress? is that maybe one of those museum places people go for a day to experiance how school was?

Scotland Street School in glasgow is like that. A great place for people to go see how schools used to be!

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

I went into teaching because one of my teachers in 6th form said I was a natural..and I loved learning and I wanted to give back to the society I lived in.I really didn't think about the financial side apart from making my grant go far enough.

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

You believe incorrectly - the only private school in Marlborough is Marlborough College (where Kate Wales went), and they were normal school uniform (with longer skirts than most schools).

http://www.marlboroughcollege.org/ne...ffe6db265d52a5

Re: Teachers' union says cutting school holidays a 'recipe for chaos'
 

wow look at all that lead on the roof;)