Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-35918844

I dare say there's going to be more than a few red faces and sweaty palms amongst the elite.

---------- Post added at 19:26 ---------- Previous post was at 19:20 ----------

Unsurprisingly, Putin associates appear to be amongst those engaged in dubious activity:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-35918845

I wonder who's really behind all this.

Re: Tax havens exposed in law firm leak
 

Massive leak and it will be interesting to see who else is implicated. It seems the data is so large the German newspaper who received it has spread it out across the many media organisations around the world. Here it's The Guardian and the BBC.

The Guardian is leading with Putin: http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016...idden-offshore

I assume no senior politicians in the UK are implicated otherwise that would surely have been the lead.

Re: Tax havens exposed in law firm leak
 

Maybe they're just not rich (or bent) enough to feature highly in the list... ;)

God I'm praying there'll be loads of Eurocrats named and shamed... :D

Re: Tax havens exposed in law firm leak
 

Well true. These are the super rich so the amount of politicians on there would be low...

I wonder if any active US politicians are on there?

Re: Tax havens exposed in law firm leak
 

... and whether that has anything to do with the timing...

Re: Tax havens exposed in law firm leak
 

Actually maybe not. Apparently not a single US name is on the list which is odd....

Lots of football players though and also FIFA! Now, if you can't trust FIFA who can you trust.

Re: Tax havens exposed in law firm leak
 

Very odd I'd say. As odd as a republican twit being a serious contender.

Anyway, if we can't have UK politicians, Eurocrats or potential US presidents please, please, please can we have some hypocrite musicians, actors and celebrity luvvies who lecture everyone else on morality... :D

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Footage has come out showing the moment the tax haven was confronted about the secret, illegal, accounts: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpjX4q5ZWQc

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I've always said everyone lives for money. everything they do is for money and how they can get loads of it all for themselves.
people in power are corrupt when it comes to money. they'd kill their granny for money.
they want thousands to turn into millions, and then they want billions.

I wonder how many UK and in government are corrupt. it's all going on behind the scenes. they're turning their thousands into millions, and hopefully into billions.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Are they illegal though?

see if I pick a UK bank that offers low tax & good rates I'm 'clever' and applauded, if I do the same with an offshore one, I'm a cheater, illegal or immoral, makes no sense. Surely my money, I do what I want with it, just like you can if you wish.

I hear so much champing about 'its illegal' and 'youre sooooo badd'

Then, when the red mist clears, it turns out , it's not actually illegal at all, then some chump goes on about 'well it's immorallll'

Putting your money in a place that best serves your purpose isn't anything but smart - provided it's not illegal, people should get over that.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I just riles me that the less well off have to pay their share of taxes, whilst those with wealth can find ways not to.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Well from what I've read some of what's alleged appears to be illegal.

Tax avoidance, of course, isn't illegal whilst morality is subjective so you'd expect differing opinions on that. There is also the question of hypocrisy on the part of those who, for example, don't mind telling others to pay their taxes but do their utmost to either avoid or even evade their paying their own dues.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Not being smart here, but does declaring false income to HMRC (Grossly less than you earn) while routing money off-shore avoiding tax on things like capital gains etc by using shell companies etc count?

That's basically what this company specialised in, going as far as to inventing these shell companies for their clients. There's tax avoidance, which is legal and frankly nearly everyone would "optimise" their tax given the chance, and there's evasion, which I'm going to guess this company veered into, lots.

Doing your best to fool the tax offices of your home country and run off with the cash isn't just immoral, but illegal and those of us on PAYE etc have a right to ask for any UK evaders to be chased and charged with any wrongdoing.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Oh dear, how embarrassing:

Fund run by David Cameron’s father avoided paying UK tax

"David Cameron’s father ran an offshore fund that avoided ever having to pay tax in Britain by hiring a small army of Bahamas residents – including a part-time bishop – to sign its paperwork."

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Great, another opportunity for po-faced lefty hypocrisy:

http://order-order.com/2016/04/04/me...fshore-havens/

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

From the Telegraph:

Live Panama Papers: Tory peers, former MPs and party donors implicated in tax haven leak as David Cameron told to take 'real action'

Happier?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

How is this all that different from the likes of Mick Jagger, Bono, and Sting funnelling their money from intellectual property rights into Dutch companies? They are avoiding tax. Which means that the Dutch based company has more cash to invest elsewhere. The money those investments earn then have Dutch tax applied to them. If money from the company is then transferred to the person, then they pay tax on it. IIRC Sting transferred a chunk from his Dutch company in 2010 in to avoid the Labour tax increase from 45% to 50%.

Companies like hedge funds will also use the same principle but with tax havens. The income that is generated internally by the company is tax free, but once any income is sent out to the shareholders it is then taxed at the appropriate rate for that person. Money originally invested in the hedge fund is likely to have been taxed already.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Not at all. They all need a good kicking. However, watching the Grauniad tutting and shaking its head over all this leaves a sour taste in my mouth.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Love the way the Guardian are covering their asses on this one - "we'll make it sound bad, but will stress that nothing illegal can be proved". Some quotes from the Guardian article

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Totally agree.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

The reason it is embarrassing for Cameron is the "all in it together bit". If he had just said:

.. then fair enough ..

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

You're missing my point - they cannot find anything illegal in the Blairmore link, so they are covering their asses with the caveats I highlighted (whilst overlooking that Guardian Media Group has between £300 and £500 million in assets in Cayman Islands accounts - a tad hypocritical of them, I think...).

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I agree but I am not suggesting anything is illegal here ..

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

So if there is nothing illegal, why is the Guardian making such a fuss over Blairmore?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Sadly it has been happening since the year dot and will continue to happen well after we are gone as well.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Well, here's hoping the information is given to various tax authorities (including HMRC and IRS), so if illegal activities have occurred, the individuals/companies can be traced, fined, and prosecuted.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

To highlight the hypocrisy and to illuminate the levels of tax avoidance during a period when the majority of the population, who have no choice but to pay the tax demanded of them, are asked to undergo Austerity cuts ..

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Not holding my breath on that..it's going to take years to untangle all the complexities of the info and to get to any form of prosecution..probably end up paying a derisory fine/tax bill and no jail time going by previous cases.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Then why didn't they highlight the hypocrisy of the Guardian Media Group having hundreds of millions of pounds in offshore Cayman Island bank accounts at the same time?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Best ask them that but whether they did or didn't, it does not change the reality of the information they are presenting. Even if you don't like the messenger, the message still remains ..

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Oh dear I used to think the Guardian campaigned against this sort of thing... :confused:

... on reflection, though, maybe they just campaigned about others doing this sort of thing...

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

So?That doesn't imply innocence..it just means they haven't been caught before.

I also am not surprised as Private eye have been writing endlessly about how useless TPTB are at actually checking out whom is doing what through shell companies and offshore tax havens.. etc,ect.

Oh dear!

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I don't think a message to the effect 'move along now, there's nothing to see here' is entirely convincing.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

But if the messenger is being selective in the information they present, that taints the message...

And you raised the point of David Cameron being hypocritical about "all in it together" when his father was involved in this, but you seem loath to condemn the Guardian when they are equally hypocritical regarding offshore tax havens.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Did you see post 20?

Also, are they being selective? What are they not reporting?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

There is a marked difference, I don't know how much you own or earn, so I could be way off, but I suspect the tax you pay each year amounts to maybe a few thousand pounds. Maybe in the low tens of thousands. A lot for you, but not a lot in terms of Government expenditure. So, if you evaded tax, the government would lose maybe half the annual salary of a junior teacher.

The amount of tax that would be owed by some of the people on that list had they not evaded it would be in the high hundreds of millions.. Certainly enough to pay for (say) several schools or a hospital to be built.

This is one reason people get angry. Another is that there is an increasing perception that the Government is favouring the rich (and in particular, the super rich) while making those who aren't rich feel the effects of austerity more severely and claiming "we are all in this together". There may be some truth to this, as it does seem that the Government is doing little to fight tax evasion, actively reducing taxes for the rich who do pay their taxes, and paying for these cuts in tax by cutting services and benefits for the poor.

Another reason is an increasing perception that they are being soft on the wealthy. There may be some truth in this as well. Look at Google. They potentially owe billions of pounds in tax, yet the government negotiated with them, and proudly boasted of getting hundreds of millions of pounds. If you or I held back our taxes, then attempted to negotiate with the government, we'd be in court and possibly bankrupted within the month.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Good summary, nicely put.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

:tu:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Very well put :tu:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Frequently aggressive tax avoidance schemes are deemed not legal, HMRC win 80% of the cases they bring to court but what does that matter when shysters like this company can hide behind cries of its not illegal and drag out court cases for years.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

This all goes down to one thing - greed. If you think, Millionaires will do anything to avoid paying a lot of Tax.

It would not surprise me if another lot of names are leaked.

If that was Joe Bloggs, in the street. They would get hammered. Didn't one Tory MP, who got named. Was also shamed of going into Parliament, for an hour or so. And claimed his £300.00 for the day.

The whole thing stinks, of the Rich. And will DC, do anything - NO, some of the donors pour money into the Tory banks

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

You're confusing the House of Lords Daily Attendance Allowance with House of Commons MPs expenses, Arthur.

And of course, Bernie Ecclestone and Lord Sainsbury never donated to the Labour Party, and the Financial Sector wasn't the second biggest cash donor to the Labour Party last year...

https://www.thebureauinvestigates.co...n-trade-union/

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Point taken Hugh.
I still believe that there are a lot of crooks out, and this leak will prove a problem, with some people.

It may even involve DC, like father, like son

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Or it may not - but let's not let facts (or lack thereof) spoil a good smear...

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Or you could judge people by the company they keep, if you think hiding your cash with Putin and assad's ill gotten gains is okay then you've got to expect what's coming

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

However DC's childhood may not have been so comfortable if his father had paid his fair share of taxes. :erm:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Let's also not get hung up on the messenger (one of 109 media organisations given access to these files)

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Well, considering his father got paid £12,400 per year for his directorship, probably not that much...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...-panama-geneva

The same story from the Guardian* 4 years ago.

*to show I'm not hung up on the messenger.. :D

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Massive amount of data to leak, wonder who leaked it. Disgruntled employee?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

You accidently missed off the next sentence:

If you suspend disbelief and pretend he just earnt £12,400 p.a., he could have earned more working at Tesco :) No need for all that Company Director shenanigans ..

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Seems it was a security breach of their email server. Terrabytes of data apparently...

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

So no one knows, but guilty until proved innocent, eh?

Or, he could have earned the money where he worked for most of his career, Panmure Gordon and NCL Investments

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obit...n-Cameron.html

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Some what strange.... David Cameron in a clip, say he has no shares, just a savings account and a house.

Surely he must mean offshore shares?

Unless he got rid of them to ensure no accusations of insider trading as PM.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

First casualty falls on his sword:

Linky

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

And if anybody in high office from any political party is found to have done the same then they should resign as well..

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

If they were honorable. However of recent times how many of our politicians have we seen virtually dragged from office after major misdemeanors with their fingernails screeching on the ground?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

That's the problem though as quite a few are not honourable and will do anything to hide their impropriety and misdemeanours although its important not to tar everybody with the same brush don't you think.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

True. But there's an awful lot of snake oil salesmen amongst them.:(

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

DC wont do anything about stopping this loop hole. Several of the tycoons mentioned in the leak report - are Tory donors.

It appears to me that l pay my taxes each week, even my pension is taxed. If l was found out to be a 'cheat' as that is what it is - not paying taxes.

I would be brought before a court and possible jailed.

IF, these peoples, whether MPs or the rich, they should be jailed.

Well don't to who ever, had brought this out.

And the biggest item l can think of is, DC knew of his fathers Tax Haven. and he claims he didn't know about it. He must think we are fools.

---------- Post added at 20:08 ---------- Previous post was at 20:07 ----------

DC also stated today, that he rents out his regular home, as he lives at Downing Street. I bet he rents it out at a nice little earner - does he pay tax on that income ?

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Arthur one suspects there are some politicians from all political parties who are probably not paying their full whack of tax so this is a problem that not just affects the party of government but is across all political divides one suspects and the same sentiment applies to parts of society as well as it ain't just the rich who fiddle their taxes as its also one suspects some people down the lower social ladder as well who fiddle their taxes as well.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Well, since it is in the The Register of Members' Financial Interests, I would imagine so...

http://www.publications.parliament.u...eron_david.htm

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

But you wouldn't know that you were hiding your cash alongside theirs since the offshore financial sector is somewhat secretive. The organization you use to do it through isn't going to tell you :dunce:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Oh what, you think it's a majority of decent honest people that become these organisations customers then

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Lots of Self employment tax fiddling happens.

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/c...case-1-5731343

This guy here was a 'hero' for taxi drivers in the North East. Everyone knew him, just see the only comment on the article. This is only one case, I'm not exaggerating when I say this bloke has helped hundreds of Taxi drives fiddle their books. This incident caused a massive mess for the bloke that had to take over. He actually failed to report any of the discrepancies though and just had people rectify their books rather than bring them up on it. Thus setting the company on the straight but failing to actually report the countless dodgy returns he had in his possession.

Source: Article, Family owned taxi company in Tyne & Wear and actually seen the guy on numerous occasions in his own office in Sunderland regarding his dodgy advice to drivers about Taxi plates from Berwick being cheaper than the ones in Sunderland but somehow valid in Sunderland which continuously caused problems, the guy is a con artist. I've done work for the Bewick guy listed in there too but had no idea he was dodging tax. I knew about the SIA discrepancies though, wouldn't be the first or last. I have plenty of stories about the utter crap that actually went on regarding the 2012 Olympics and G4S, SIA Discrepancies at so many companies and how the likes of Bewick ended up getting paid a fortune for the 2012 Olympics too. Not the topic though but what happened at Stadiums and Arena's around the UK was conveniently swept under the rug. If anyone's interested, under this Doshi bloke I'd give you a figure of about 7/10 Taxi drivers in Sunderland fiddling their books with him. How does one come to such a figure? They're very open about it, almost bragging about it. I'm no accountant and luckily I'm PAYE taxed and always have been but I have heard one of the methods they're told to use, again someone else will need to shed light on what they're actually doing. It involves filling up at the end of the shift but doing it twice? Fueling > Stop > Pay and get receipt > Properly fill up. I think that's what I got told anyway. Something involving two receipts or filling up twice.

So in summary you're not wrong but in a lot of cases, they go a lot further than just tax dodging in some workplaces. In my industry I've seen pages ripped out of SIA logbooks (Illegal) Black people, yep just the black lads told to pull a 48 hour shift. I could swear they've fiddled with payslips and tax too. Way past that now though into something completely legit and well paying.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I'm saying that someone who uses one of these offshore entities won't know if they are using the same one as Putin or Assad. In addition, are these entities illegal? You may not like tax avoidance but it is legal. Are they doing anything illegal? :confused:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-27372841

To sum up the differences between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

That's the distinction a lot of people miss. This tax avoidance, whether done by an individual or organisation is legal, whether it is morally right or morally wrong. As such, the people doing it won't go to jail for doing it, purely because you cannot be jailed for doing something that is legal.

They do need to close whatever loopholes in the law that allow this kind of act to be legal, but bearing in mind the people doing this can probably afford better lawyers than the government can (these lawyers do find loopholes faster than they can be closed), and bearing in mind that they are frequently taking advantage of loopholes in the laws of many countries, or even international law, it's going to take the Government time to close any loopholes.

I am not excusing anyone, or saying tax avoidance is right. It is not.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I'm not going to defend evasion or indeed avoidance which deliberately pushes at the boundaries or what's legal however I wonder how many people wouldn't do exactly the same thing if they were in the position to do so. In my experience wealth doesn't make people happier to pay tax and it doesn't matter whether they're from a aristocratic/privileged background or lottery winners from a council estate. Tax evasion is rife, the only differences are scale and the means by which it's done - undeclared cash in hand or off shore tax havens.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

If you stopped and thought about it for a second you'd know and yes 80% of the time aggressive tax avoidance is found to be not legal in court, makes me chuckle having this discussion, I await with baited breath for someone to come along and compare it to having an isa like usual

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

tbf, most of the "aggressive tax avoidance" schemes which are found illegal tend to be on-shore, rather than off-shore.

http://www.professionaladviser.com/p...n-hmrcs-sights

However, HMG and other governments are working together to stop BEPS http://www.oecd.org/tax/aggressive/

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

That's the whole point though ,at the time the loophole was used it was legal ,only after being challenged and a costly court battle is it decided that it was illegal .You really can't blame people for doing something that was legal

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Yup, lots of things which were once legal have become illegal due, for example, to public pressure and subsequent changes in the rules or more stringent interpretation of them. The tax regime is an area in which 'legality' is being challenged and reviewed constantly and like all changes in the law, it takes time.

I notice Labour have been banging on about tax havens but I don't recall them sorting it out when they were in power either...

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Seems George is now getting some awkward questions:

Panama Papers: George Osborne evades questions about family's tax affairs as David Cameron comes under more pressure

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Seems that if you are rich or even slightly well off you must be bent :rolleyes:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Actually when these loopholes are found they know exactly how dubious they are and that the courts will almost certainly find against them when tested but then they also know that the cost of the case and likely settlement will be less than the tax due in the first place

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Nope, for some folks you just have to be a Tory. These same people don't usually like to comment on the rose tinted avoiders and evaders...

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

As far as l am concerned it does not matter which politician from which party is doing it or whether its the rich or less well off doing it as the main thing is to stop as much tax avoidance as we possibly can and if that means we have to have much sterner laws and punishments to crack down on these people then that's what we have to have as currently there are too many loopholes for my liking.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Plenty of people who do cash-in-hand jobs too. Seem thing ethically speaking. Although I guess there is the perception, which might well be true, that the rich have enough influence to legalise their loopholes or avoid illegal ones whereas the cash-in-hand guy sets the full weight of the law chucked at them.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Not everyone is like that..

OK. in my experience, most people don't like paying tax, whatever their wealth. I don't, but I accept that it is necessary. I'd like to think that if I should become wealthy, I'd still feel the same, and not squirrel away large sums of money in a Tax Haven.

i have two cousins. One is married to someone very high up in a retail chain, and the other earns a similar wage to his brother-in-law in another job, working for a friend's company. Both of them are well into the higher rate of income tax.

My cousin is only here every 90 days or say as he claims he cannot afford to stay here for longer due to the tax payable. His brother-in-law says that not only can he afford to live in this country and pay the higher rate of tax (even after tax, they do have a very nice, and expensive, lifestyle), but that he feels that the country has contributed a lot to him during his life, even helping him when things weren't so good, so he owes his country.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting everyone is like that but I do believe there's a good degree of hypocrisy amongst the population who don't mind their various fiddles but whine when someone else is found to be doing it. Certain groups are easy targets and it sometimes makes me laugh that those who complain about being unfairly targeted for some reason often indulge in the very same thing.

Let's face it, it's not usually wealthy people who create complicated tax avoidance or even evasion schemes, it's their so called 'professional' lawyers and accountants who sell these schemes to their clients and I don't suppose they openly admit they're highly dubious.

Are those who employ the services of legal experts to get them off charges (for say drunk driving) on technicalities any better, worse, less immoral than people who avoid or evade tax? They'd argue the letter of the law (as opposed to the spirit) is what matters in justifying how they avoided justice. By that argument a good deal of tax avoidance is also perfectly ok.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Actually, if they lose, they have to pay the tax that was due, plus interest, and usually a fine.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Like Vodafone, who iirc paid less than the tax due in settlement and held onto the money for five years whilst the case dragged on

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Exactly.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

http://i.imgur.com/L3kfW2D.jpg

Britain's Prime minister of course. From Blair and Brown to Cameron. Clowns.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

tbf, you mentioned 'the courts', which is what I was referring to - Vodafone never went to court...

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

:rofl:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

That is true and a fair comment :tu:

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

I thought that HMRC were moving to a position where a tax haven \ avoidance scheme had to be proved legal BEFORE it could be used?

Continually trying to close the stable door after the horse has bolted is a losers game.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

So you support legal highs then?

Same sort of thing. Some of these schemes are usually based on schemes that are illegal, only modified to not be caught in current rules. HMRC usually find these schemes and have to then show they actually break the intention of the rules. This is exactly the same MO of those making legal highs, take a (usually illegal) drug, change it chemically a bit, presto, legal.

As heero yuy has said, the only way to have HMRC able to enforce the tax rules as they are intended is to have a system where any new "Tax optimisation" scheme has to be cleared before use. Alas I'm not even sure that's allowed.

As for Osem's comments, I agree. Don't hate the player, hate the game. I cannot blame anyone for taking every measure to protect their money. Nobody likes the taxman, but we need fairness when it comes to paying your dues. if there was a loophole to PAYE not only would many people exploit it, but you'd likely see a harsh clampdown on it too. There's a perception that the richer you are, the softer HMRC seems to be.

The message to the masses (Likely all of us included) is this: "You WILL pay your taxes, be it PAYE or via Self Assessment".

The message to the elite and rich seems to be: "Please pay your taxes, pretty please" and while HMRC are getting tougher, leaks like this show it's way to easy for those with money to make sure they do not contribute their dues to this country as they should. We need a tax system that makes sure ALL have the same tax regime, with clear, and fair tax optimisation schemes that promote investment coming into the country instead of allowing money to escape.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

That is not even close to being a valid comparison .Beer ,wine, coffee are all legal highs,Cannabis is getting ever closer to being legal ,the point is that legislation changes and evolves as society changes and evolves .
The biggest problem that HMRC have is that past court cases have set precedents that cannot simply be ignored .The government has spent a lot of time setting up GAAR legislation to counteract these precedents set by courts

such as these judgements


These judgements have been used for over 70 yrs and only recently have the GAAR regulations set them aside

A worthwhile read

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

This doesn't look good for Mr Cameron.

It may be a 'private' matter for some, though Jimmy Carr didn't get the same luxury of pleading privacy, but not for the Prime Minister, especially given his rhetoric in public. Needs to come clean and, as those who are fine with the government rifling through our private communications are fond of saying, he should have nothing to fear if he's nothing to hide.

The extremely carefully worded statements seem to indicate there is something to hide. This ignoring that his Chancellor gave the appearance of defensiveness when pressed on the matter.

If we were as democratic as we like to think we are the political careers of these two would both be in serious jeopardy.

Trusting these two with tax reform is like trusting the cast of Benefits Street with welfare reform.

In other news bears excrete in woods and the London property market is influenced by laundered cash.

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

It's a perfectly reasonable comparison if you actually make the comparison intended.

The presumption in law is, or at least will be, that all psychoactive substances are banned unless explicitly permitted.

If the government can operate on that premise for those it seems fair to ask why they can't state that all tax 'efficiencies' are illegal unless explicitly stated otherwise and to ask how someone can support the apparent discrepancy in the treatment of the two.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Yes it is valid, and I don't understand why you disagree with that? What you wrote doesn't contradict but provide an example of it. If the law is constantly evolving, it is because people are always trying to find ways to go around, rather than break it. Tax law is an especially good example.

I fully support the right of people to optimise their tax affairs in a legal, transparent manner. I cannot support those who invent blatantly illegal schemes that are only "legal" because of a change of a formally illegal scheme to avoid the bit they got caught for last time.

Funnily enough, most of the problems in this leak are money laundering, conflicts of interest and sanctions evasion. None of those things are going to fly and need looking at. The Tax avoiding bits to be fair look like standard and well used methods and while a debate on tax havens is a legitimate one, it is a separate one.

However, while you are indeed right in saying people have the right to manage their tax affairs without meddling, they do not have the right to lie to HMRC. While the likes of Google, the Guardian, Starbucks etc are aggressive tax avoiders, they are also relatively simple to see what they're doing, whether you like the schemes or not is another matter. A millionaire declaring an income of a pittance and paying little tax, while operating a company provided by Mossack Fonseca (And not declaring ownership to HMRC) is getting rather close to tax evasion, especially if it's used to evade CGT.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

No it's not ,we are talking about tax law not matters of health in society .It's ridiculous to suggest that the application of law deciding what will or will not harm society is remotely the same as tax law.

---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:23 ----------

No it's not,i will elaborate.

In reply to my statement of ".You really can't blame people for doing something that was legal"

Hero replied "Exactly"

You then commented "so you approve of legal highs then".

In the context of this thread abiding by tax law is all that matters, morality has no bearing .If it is legal then anybody can avail themselves of the benefits of abiding by the law ,only when it has been determined that a certain scheme is illegal do people have to stop using it .

If we where discussing the pros and cons of drug abuse then your comment would have validity.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

It can be argued that going around tax law costs billions and that directly affects the health of our finances, and because the NHS is paid for by tax, the health of our society as well.

So yes, they are comparable, even with your bizarre bar of comparison. Frankly, I did not consider, nor care for such an arbitrary point. On a legal basis, both ideas, whether to evade tax (Again, not bona-fide, accepted tax avoidance scheme) or to evade drugs laws, the outcome is the same. Exploiting a loop-hole with the knowledge that you're likely going to find it closed is questionable ethically and legally, whether you think the impact of society is. Tax evasion is not a victimless crime.No, I was making the point that if you support "Legal until proven otherwise", you must support ALL other examples of this, including legal highs etc. It also means that you support the letter, rather than the spirit of the law. While that is a legitimate point of view, and a totally fine one to hold, it is not one I agree with. People wanting to exploit the law will only be encouraged to do so if everyone thought that as long as they can get off on a technicality, then their actions can go unpunished.

As Osem pointed out, there are lawyers who specialise in this for things like drink driving, and I find that reprehensible that you can break the law, and get away with it thanks to a clever lawyer. This is similar. If you can show that you are exploiting a technicality, unintended for tax evasion but not envisaged as such then you're no better than those who evade tax outright.

One of the biggest "things" the Tories correctly pointed out under the Labour Govt, was the amount and length of legislation passed by Labour over their rule of the country. This is because people saw the "letter of the law" as a target of exploitation, rather than the intentions of the law behind it. The pledge to "reduce red tape" was thus pretty much abandoned when the Tories got into power because for each layer of red tape to remove, there was someone ready to jump into the loopholes left. A sad situation to be in but reflects the reality of how our nation is governed. If it's not written down in cast iron, someone will use that, even if it's obviously not intended to be legal.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Now your just being ridiculous and scrabbling to justify an inane comment and reading the above you are getting confused between avoidance and evasion.You can't evade tax by using loopholes .Evading tax is illegal full stop ,it is not a question of morals or loopholes it is illegal.Avoidance is the legal use of tax laws to reduce one's tax burden

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

They have - it came into effect late last year.

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...blishing-3.pdf

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

No, and you're deliberately being obtuse.

Creations of schemes that are tax evasion and only count as avoidance because nobody thought of the scheme in question when writing a tax law is still evasion. It just hasn't been found out until someone finds the loophole.

It is the same as the creation of legal highs, one chemical (or in this case, tax scheme) is closed, and you can be assured there will be people writing the next one. it's a game of cat and mouse.

Again, for the umpteenth time. Tax avoidance, that is intended under the law is fine. Creating ways to get around the intention, if not the letter of the law is not. How many times must I say this? Your assertion that you cannot evade tax by using loopholes is ridiculous as we have seen examples time and time again of this occurring. Example: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...-loophole.html
Oh, that's good then. I thought that would've never got through.

Re: Tax havens exposed in huge law firm leak
 

Do you mean support or agree with .We all have to support and abide by laws ,we don't necessarily have to agree with them .Your premise that i must support everything that is legal until proven otherwise is correct ,i don't have to agree with it ,Heero doesn't have to agree with legal highs but he does have to support peoples right to use them .People using loopholes in tax law are free to do so until the hole is closed regardless of who agrees and who does not .It is the basis of our legal system