Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

BBC1 HD

BBC2 HD

ITV HD

C4 HD

C5 HD*

* Been told that it's possible that this differs according to franchise area.

I don't have the correct box at the moment to check for myself, so would be grateful if anybody could take their card out and see if the picture remains.

Cheers.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Why is the answer to this question important to you as all Virgin Media customers have appropriate equipment to decrypt any encrypted channel?

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

And of course, removing a Smartcard from TiVo (if there even is one) won't do anything, due to the internal subscription authentication.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I really don't understand why this question has been raised. Does it really matter?

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Not to me it don't.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Didn't realise this happened with the TiVo.

I need this information in connection with some research that i'm doing.

Is anybody able to help? I guess it will have to be a non TiVo customer, unless Ben can find out.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Some research? On who's behalf and for what purpose?

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I wish to know if these particular channels are broadcast FTA or encrypted.

I suspect that they are, because up to press, PSB HD variants are not classed as PSB channels, so VM would be allowed to scramble them, but I want to find out for sure. This is expected to change when the law is changed in preparation for the switch off of the SD PSB variants by 2020.

Is there anybody out there with a non TiVo box that can help?

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

OK, I was bored, so I removed my card from my VHD box and t̶h̶e̶ ̶u̶n̶i̶v̶e̶r̶s̶e̶ ̶i̶m̶p̶l̶o̶d̶e̶d̶ no HD channels.

However there was access to the SD channels 1-5 plus a handful of other channels - Pick, S4C, BBC/Sky News.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Many thanks for going to the trouble of doing that, it's as I expected, so I'm glad it's confirmed.

Channel 5 HD looks to be going FTA shortly, but it looks like the VM policy is to encrypt the PSB HD variants.

It appears unlikely, therefore, that even if/when Channel 5 HD goes FTA on satellite and Freeview, that it will become FTA on VM until the law is changed (VM aren't allowed to encrypt any channels with PSB status as a condition of their franchises).

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I'm really unclear as to why you think this is an issue for Virgin Media customers.

Channel 5 HD is available to all Virgin Media customers, including those with the 'free' TV M.

It matters not that it is encrypted because all Virgin Media customers have equipment to decrypt it.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

You're right, it isn't an issue for VM customers because, as you say, we get it anyway from the lowest package upwards. Non subscribers have to make do with the SD versions.

I wonder if VM pay anything for having the C5 HD variant, as, until very recently, Sky were subsidising the channel eg by letting it sit on one of their satellite transponders.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

As VM is a closed system (in other words you need a supplied set top box and a viewing card) then I personally don't see the point of this query. Unlike freesat/freeview and even sky where you don't need a dedicated connection to the system due to them being EM signals radiated through the open air which means that anyone with the right equipment will receive FTA signals. It wouldn't surprise me if all TV shows were encrypted on the VM network.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Sorry!!!

Who are these non-subscribers?

You seem to be supporting those who steal Virgin Media services.

They have no right to any channels from a non-subscribed Virgin Media connection.

Virgin Media - please encrypt all channels.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Have to admit I was surprised that some channels remained after taking my card out. Can see now why some ex-customers retain their boxes and they crop up on ebay.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Nope, VM broadcast FTA channels too.

These can be accessed by both former subscribers with VM equipment and those who have never subscribed using non VM equipment.

As I explained earlier, VM are not allowed to encrypt some channels and choose not to encrypt others (probably because the channels in question are not worth the costs of scrambling the signal).

VM are aware of this situation as, some time ago, when they bought a shopping channel, they turned off the encryption to improve it's reach.

Non subscribers can be a person who has cancelled and VM didn't require the box back (like the friend of mine below), those who use unauthorised equipment (less likely now that the Pay TV channels are no longer available for free since the introduction of Nagra 3 encryption) and those with cable TV's.

VM probably aren't bothered because it costs them nothing extra, it may end up with a paying TV customer in the future and the service is limited.

I wouldn't get too upset about this, as these people receive less than what is available on Freeview.

Indeed.

A friend of mine had to cancel VM TV due to the cuts in disability benefits, he doesn't have an aerial and isn't allowed to put up a satellite dish.

They didn't want his old SD box back, so now he uses it for Radio 4, BBC1 and BBC News and is perfectly happy.

If the HD PSB channels were available, I was going to suggest he upgrade to an HD box, but now that you have kindly informed me that they aren't, I won't mention this to him :)

He's done this for years, but has been made aware that he may be cut off should VM require the connection in the cabinet for a paying customer.

Unfortunately, Catch Up TV does not work for non subscribers, so if this happens, i'll advise him to get a streaming stick. The costs of this can be recouped by then being able to cancel his TV licence.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Personally don't begrudge him access given his circumstances. More fool VM for not collecting the equipment. Unfortunately looks like he'll need a licence if streaming iPlayer as the govt. are changing the law.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

RichardCoulter, what you are saying is completely wrong.

Only Virgin Media customers have legal right to access the Virgin Media TV service.

You mention non-Virgin Media equipment. It is illegal to connect such equipment to the Virgin Media cable and steal what you are not paying for.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

They haven't collected the box or disconnected him. He's done nothing wrong, VMs incompetence.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Yep, i've read that plans are being mooted to extend the need for a TV licence to catch up services.

AIUI, it's not illegal, but it is against VM t&c's. As non VM customers, these people haven't agreed to any VM terms and conditions.

Even if these were enforceable, my friend has not connected any unauthorised equipment to the VM network- it's as it was left by a VM engineer after installation and since cancellation of VM TV services.

Nothing is being "stolen". The bulk of the channels available either cost nothing for VM to put them there eg BBC1, or they get paid by the broadcaster for being there eg shopping channels.

I repeat what I said earlier, when VM bought a shopping channel years ago, one of the first things they did was make it FTA to increase it's reach and, therefore, any potential sales. This tells me that they are aware of and unconcerned* about non subscribers accessing these channels.

Indeed, I believe that there are/were places in the UK where TV aerials weren't allowed and householders were advised to connect the supplied VM feed directly to their TV set (I'm unsure if this still happens with the advent of digital). This is also the norm for other countries.

* There is a long standing disagreement between those with technical knowledge about such matters, that connecting non VM equipment to the network can push noise back out into the network and thus affect other viewers.

Until this is resolved, I don't condone or recommend that anybody connect anything but an authorised VM STB to the system.

These FTA channels are here for valid reasons to benefit people in various ways, including yourself.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

It may not be illegal, but at the same time Virgin Media are under no obligation to allow it.

Which may be the case for the older V box system. As I've previously said, TiVo now works in a different way and due it's internal and constant requirement to be authorised, you can't do the same with TiVo as you can with a V box.

As the V box platform is retired in favour of TiVo, then so the ability to view channels without an active subscription to Virgin Media will cease. If you wish to view channels subscription free, then there are alternative platforms available in the UK.

It's less likely now that analogue TV is not broadcast over cable, so you don't have people sticking the bare coax cable in the back of the TV, and with the improved encryption of the Smartcard swap out a few years back, and now the internal encryption for TiVo, the ability to connect fully illegal boxes is diminished.

That only applied to analogue, where ntl and Telewest rebroadcast the core terrestrial channels in the range a standard UK TV could tune to. It has never applied to digital cable.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Yes, I've explained to my friend that VM could disconnect him at any time if the connection is needed for a new paying customer. However, he hasn't been disconnected in years, would the fact that he takes broadband from VM mean that he should be OK?

I thought that the V boxes were staying? The (then) CEO said that TiVo software could be dropped onto V boxes (but not the V+).

Thanks for explaining Re: TiVo and analogue.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

They did say years ago about TiVo software going on the VHD; but nothing happened. I wouldn't want TiVo software on the my VHD anyway; its much quicker than TiVos snail pace software.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Ahhh, so maybe they aren't going to do it now.

After asking a contact at VM why the FTA channels exist, I was told:

- Their cable franchises expressly forbid the encryption of channels 1-4 (1-5 in some areas). In practice, VM don't encrypt any of these in their franchise areas.

- If a customer is cut off due to not paying their bill, it would not be right to cut off basic services that have been paid for by their TV licence. It is assumed that all VM customers have a valid TV licence as this is a condition of receiving VM TV.

- If there was a total breakdown of the encryption system, paying customers would at least have something to watch whilst this was sorted out.

- In the event of a national emergency, BBC1 would be taken over by the Government and become the 'Emergency Broadcasting Service'. Essentially, it would provide information and advice in the event of eg a nuclear attack on the country. It's important to note that this service, whilst run by the BBC, would not be independent, it would essentially be a mouthpiece of the Government.

In such an emergency, it would be unthinkable for people to find that they couldn't access Government broadcasts due to encryption.

I also suspect that the shopping channels who pay to be on VM want as wide a reach as possible to tout their wares, other reasons include the belief that it is not worth paying the encryption service provider for the right to encrypt some channels eg Pick- this is FTA on all platforms and consists of repeats.

I hope that this helps to explain to Robo as to why some channels will never be encrypted.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Very interesting Richard.

So the moral of the story is hang on to your TV Box if VM don't take it back. It may be of use in the event of a holocaust, or if the TV aerial blows off your roof ;)

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

😂😂😂😂

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

So no change then ;)

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Omg.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

It looks like VM will still be encrypting Channel 5 HD, even if it goes FTA on other platforms.

VM will have to make their PSB HD channels FTA before about 2020.

This is when the Government want the PSB SD variants closed to free up space on Freeview; so by default, the HD variants will have to be reclassified as PSB channels (which they aren't at the moment).

As such, from the date that the HD channels become PSB services, it would be unlawful for VM to encrypt them.

My friend can then finally upgrade to HD :D

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I would question where this 'unlawful to encrypt' thing comes from. As far as I can see there is a 'must carry' requirement on Virgin Media as part of all subscription levels however that isn't the same thing.

http://www.pedz.uni-mannheim.de/date...-mustcarry.pdf (this is from 2001)
I'm happy to be pointed in the direct of relevant information.

TiVo (which is Virgin Media's currently developed platform) works differently to the V boxes. You cannot have a non-subscription TiVo box, as the authorisation for services is internal to the box. TiVo doesn't rely on the Smartcard, and newly installed TiVo boxes do not come with one. Therefore you can't turn a TiVo box into a 'unencrypted only' box. It either is a subscribed box, or it's explicitly de-authorised.

In fact I'm pretty sure that where a customer is suspended, a permanent unremovable message is displayed over all channels on the TiVo box advising of an issue with the subscription. That's if the box can boot in the first place. It would also end up with box being unable to gain valid data from the TiVo data centre so the box would no longer display any EPG information.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

How can your non-TV subscriber friend upgrade to HD? I'm guessing by buying a new TV which decodes cable, DTC. In which case getting an aerial installed and a cheaper TV without the DTC facility may be a better option.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I was told that the unlawful thing is because FTA carriage of PBS channels is a condition of the cable franchises. Not sure whether the franchises can be inspected by individuals, they may be commercialy sensitive :confused:

I guess his choice of words was poor, maybe unlawful was too strong when it really means being in breach of their franchise agreement. I can't imagine that anybody would be sent to prison, but rather that VM would be told to correct any breaches and if they failed to do so, ultimately they could lose any affected franchise areas.

He already has a V HD box, but it can't currently show HD channels as these are encrypted.

I was hoping that he could start to view the PSB channels in HD (his eyesight is failing), but it seems that he will have to wait.

As he only uses BBC1, BBC News and Radio 4, which are all FTA in SD at no cost to him, he's happy with this arrangement and doesn't have to pay for a new aerial.

He's disabled and the Government have made savage cuts to disability benefits, so Pay TV had to go.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I wish I had the SD version of Radio 4, Richard...! :D

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

IIRC that's exactly what happens. Channels 1-4 or in certain areas 5 are available with the overlay message.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Lol, well the BBC have done some HD radio broadcasts, I think it was Radio 3??

He's never mentioned any problems with anything like that.

When he first had his Pay TV cut off, I do remember him saying that iPlayer wouldn't work and that some messages were appearing on the screen. IIRC he had to press back up or something to get rid of it. I think that he said that he had to clear it everytime he changed channels, which isn't too bad as he only watches BBC1 & BBC News- I don't think that the radio stations had this, so his Radio 4 would be OK.

I guess it's the VM box that's causing this as it's expecting a valid viewing card to give it the ability to descramble the encrypted channels, I wouldn't have thought that non VM equipment would do this because, AFAIK, they can no longer decode the scrambled pay channels.

Yes, it was radio 3 in HD: http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/news/item46

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

It's on TiVo where that happens, not on the V boxes.

But just as the ability to connect a TV to cable without a STB stopped when analogue ceased, the ability to run an de-authorised Virgin Media box won't be possible once the V box platform is withdrawn.

Unless there is any change to the regulations, which I have seen no indication that there will be in any news outlet, you choice once V boxes are withdrawn will either be have a valid Virgin TV subscription (even if there is no specific cost such as TV M), or receive your TV channels via another method.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I guess that he will be ok as long as his V box carries on working. At that stage, he's probably better off getting an Amazon Fire TV stick and using the TV player app. Not HD but if his eyesight is declining as mine is then that will probably not be an issue.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

@BenMcr I wish you would check as AFIAK even Tivo boxes will allow reception of channels 1-4 (or 5) with the overlay message.

I could be wrong though.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Yes, it would be interesting to find out. This is just my curiosity though, as I very much doubt that my friend will be upgraded to TiVo whilst not subscribing to any package at all :D

Well, I originally asked this question as I thought that the more detailed picture that HD offers might be better for my friend with his failing eyesight!

If he loses the TV service, he could probably get by with using his tablet as he has VM broadband. I keep thinking that this is the reason that they haven't yet reused his tap in the cabinet (unless they're completely separate).

So are they definitely going to withdraw the V HD boxes Ben? I remember when TiVo first came out that the CEO said that the TiVo software could be dropped onto the V boxes.

I have seen posts from people who claim to be able to connect digital cable to a TV that has a cable tuner for the FTA channels.

Is TV M still available (I thought i'd read that it had been phased out). My friend is thinking of getting one of those pendants that people put round their neck to alert Social Services in case of an emergency.

This needs a landline, so if he has to have that put back on, could he get the free TV M package? Would it still be 'free' if he has to take a TiVo?

They are coming to replace my V+ box tomorrow, which surprised me, I thought that they'd now be wanting everyone on TiVo (I don't take premium sports or movies).

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Sorry what I meant was that on TiVo the channels will be shown but with the message.

That's because the channel source is currently the same across all STBs

My point was that you can't view them completely in the clear on TiVo as you can on the V boxes as on TiVo you cannot remove the overlay message.

In some respects it's already happening. As from last November you must have at least one TiVo box as part of any core bundle change that includes Virgin TV. So if you don't have TiVo, to make any change to your core bundle you need to take it.

And the older SA V+ HD boxes are currently being swapped out due to change to Sky Premiums HD.

I have no doubt that this sort of change will continue and the swap out activity will increase.

It's the same as happened with analogue. When Digital Cable was first introduced it was demand led i.e for new customers only. But as time went it was pushed deeper into bundles and services until eventually it was a required change in order to keep cable TV.

It may be possible but only because the channels are currently unencrypted.

If / when Virgin Media get to a point where all their customer reception equipment doesn't work without an active subscription and connection there will no need to keep them FTA, as you'll either be able to get them decrypted in your active subscription or the kit won't work.

TV M is only currently available within bundles including broadband as far as I'm aware. And although there is still no specific cost for the channel line up itself, the TiVo fee does technically add £5 the cost - before any bundle calculation.

Fault swaps are still like for like (unless in the case of SD V boxes there aren't any left, in which case a V HD is installed instead)

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Thanks for your advice Ben.

He already has broadband, so if he takes a phone for his social services pendant, he could have TV M for no extra cost (apart from the TiVo £5 fee)??

Do you know how much it will cost? He's on 20 Mbps broadband at the moment, I don't like to ask how much he pays, so don't know, but I can't imagine that it will be that much more with the TV being free and then the bundle discount being factored in.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

The bundle with TV M is the Big Easy http://store.virginmedia.com/big-bun...utmore_bigeasy

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Thanks Ben.

The cheapest broadband only deal on the site is 50Mbps at £30.25.

The bundle that you posted in the link gives phone (Talk Weekends), TV M and the same 50 Mbps for £42.

If he took phone and broadband only, it would cost £37, this looks like the TV is free + the £5 TiVo charge that you mentioned.

If he ends up needing a landline for the Social Services emergency cord anyway, he could have a proper TV service for an extra £5 a month and the two linear TV channels that he watches would be available in HD.

Could he have another type of box to negate the £5 TiVo fee? He's not bothered about recording, he just uses BBC1, BBC News and Radio 4.

If I've got this right, I can let him know the options he has :)

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

In post #40 Ben says that you must have a Tivo now for each TV subscription. :(

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Well, as an existing customer, I still have the V+ only.

My friend is also an existing customer (broadband only), maybe he'll have to have a TiVo as a returning TV customer though.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

However if you make any change to your core bundle, you'll be required to move to TiVo.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Does this downgrades to TV packed? I'm thinking of moving down from XL.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I would say yes.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Thanks- I forgot to include the word include :D

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I thought of these posts today regarding what I was told as to one of the reasons why BBC1 isn't encrypted on VM when I heard about what the Government want to do to the BBC.

I've always thought that, as the BBC is accused of political bias by both the left and the right, that this showed that they have the balance about right.

However, David Cameron has other ideas to make the BBC more Tory friendly:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/20...l#post35827772

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

Curiously, S4C HD is only available on a part time basis to VM customers, whereas it is available 24/7 to non paying viewers off the EPG!

Non customers currently also get access to Fox News and some NDTV asian channels.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

...no sooner had I posted this, S4C HD was removed.

Looks like it was only there in the background for the football.

Re: Are these five channels encrypted on VM?
 

I can confirm that you're correct Ben.

Due to a cock up in changing from a TiVo to a V6, I'm currently only able to receive and record the FTA channels:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/s...702913&page=81

And there is a very annoying message moving around saying I need to ring 150 due to "a problem".

Looks like those using FTA services will need a non TiVo box if they are to avoid this.