Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/news/...cid=spartanntp

When is this Government going to act. Or are they waiting for every major employer to axe everyone, and go for cheap imports form other countries.

It makes my blood boil when the government doesn't act on this. This country, should be the major manufacturer of major goods to go abroad, or in this country.

But they are buying cheap imports. For example, the recent mine closure, which supplied a main power station NINE MILES AWAY. Instead they are importing coals from thousands of miles away..

It does not make sense. Thousands more British Workforce on the dole. And before people say, that TATA are losing money per week, the government should get involved and reduce various taxes they are placing on companies: mad:

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

The above post typed on a computer/tablet/phone probably assembled in China with parts made in, amongst others, Taiwan.

The fewer taxes companies pay the more we have to pay to make it up. To keep manufacturing within the UK we have to be prepared to pay more for products.

That sound good?

We simply cannot compete with other countries as far as things like coal and steel go. We're far better off pursuing high tech manufacturing, which we to an extent are. There is no mileage in the UK trying to subsidise lower technology industry. We will never be able to compete with countries whose health and safety is banal and whose cost of workforce and energy are a fraction of ours because they don't care about either.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

We can't compete when China is dumping and Redcar could've been saved if the contracts for the mod went to them instead of just after allowing them to go bust giving the job to Sweden, guess they had their reasons though...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34392379

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Britain.html

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I'm not sure about steel, but I know coal is £30 a ton to import or £45 a ton to produce in the UK.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You may not think its right, but it IS cheaper.

What exactly do you expect the Government to do?? Tell them no?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I look at it this way, This Government is pouring out contracts to overseas firms. And out own workforce is being put on the dole.

We have Osborne, Johnson and Cameron going to countries trying to drum up contracts for us. And we are selling our OWN businesses down the river. I think its shameful

Its like where l live, the majority of properties that are being refurbished are employing foreign builders, plumbers etc.

I think its totally wrong - we should be giving out contracts to our own businesses, before anything else

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Do our own businesses offer competitive prices and workmanship?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Minor little detail, but Redcar couldn't actually produce the specialist steel required.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

So foreign workers are willing to work harder for less money. Why would people say no to that.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

the reason to keep it open would be national security though how at this late stage that could be managed is a bit baffling. The skilled workers have been used to bring the plants in the owners country up to speed. And every time there is any kind of excuse the down size here they do so . I am of two minds on this though i lived by steel works most of my life and in Newport where steel production has almost disappeared the air quality is now a lot better no more black specks on cars or washing any more. The jobs would be good but in real terms no mater what government is in unless they start to see it as a need to be able to produce steel for tanks or what ever it will die a slow death over the next decade.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You're obviously not aware of that insiduous potential agreement known as TIPP where the public will have no knowledge of what has transpired or is pending.

"Upon the insistence of the US, the documents are not transmitted any more as electronic or even printed documents. They are only made available in a highly secured room in Brussels or in a number of US embassies in Europe. In all these secured rooms phones or other types of scanning device are forbidden."

"An October 2014 study by Jeronim Capaldo of the Global Development and Environment Institute at Tufts University indicates that there will be losses in terms of net exports, net losses in terms of GDP, loss of labor income, job losses, reduction of the labor share, loss of government revenue and higher financial instability among European countries"

If you want to read more just Goole it.

Scource for quotes - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transa...nt_Partnership

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Yes shockingly enough I did actually read the link before posting it. I also read it well enough to notice that the part you've highlighted is for the vehicles not the ships but thanks anyway. As I said the government has their reasons for all I know it could've cost to much to renovate the plant to secure the ships contract if that was even an issue. I don't like them hiding behind the EU though

http://www.northeastlabour.eu/confir...ved-steelworks

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 01:17 ----------

Iirc we had one steel company producing stuff only one other company in the world could match and the government still refused to save it a few years back

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

The ships need special steel as well.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Yes as stated we don't know how much it would cost for us to be able to provide the prerequisite grade but that's not the point the government has told us throughout due to the EU it wasn't possible for them to intervene, which seemingly is a lie

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

My original hometown, I lived in Port Talbot for close to 35 years, my father worked in the steelworks for 40 years, I'd hazard a guess at more than 99% of the population there know someone who works or worked at the plant and this will have a devastating effect on the community.

He used to tell me stories about during the 70s it employed more than 20,000 people (now around 4000) and it was well known that some people would clock in at the start of a shift then nip off down the pub for a few hours. Others would have a kip in the mess room for a couple of hours on a night shift with people taking turns watching out for the foreman. For years it was badly run like that.

There's not much to brag about in PT, the eastern end at Margam (where the steelworks is mainly situated) always smells of something, usually sulphur but the plant always feels like the heart of the town and in a way that's unlikely to be understood by outsiders the residents have a kind of pride about it.

I understand there's something like 100m tonnes of coal under the steelworks and if TATA was allowed to mine it they would save a fortune on running costs which would go a long way to safeguarding jobs but for some reason permission has constantly been denied. Given what Thatcher did to the town in the 80s regarding the miner's strikes plus Cameron shaking hands with the Chinese for their steel let NOBODY be surprised at how much the Tories are generally hated in and around Port Talbot.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

:confused:
And who added those extra costs?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Well, I guess reality denying and hoping for protectionism to save us all is always a good go-to when bad things happens.

First, for all of your bluster, unemployment is lower in the UK than most of Europe, so we aren't doing that badly as a whole.

Secondly, your post twists and turns so fast I'm not even sure you know what you're saying. If there's too many cheap imports of a certain product, how can we compete without being either cheaper or using subsidy? If we can't go down the first route as it would depress wages, the 2nd would basically make for an even worse race to the bottom as each country like China and the rest of the EU etc dashes to prop up their own industry. We've seen this before, hence current EU rules.

I am a proponent of free markets, as harsh as they can be sometimes. Commodities especially have cycles, and if you ride the highs, you must be prepared for the lows.

As for your taxes argument:

1: Corporation Taxes are already being lowered in this parliament, I don't think a few % points either way is going to do much to an industry that has a massive over-supply problem.

2: The other option, subsidies and bailouts, have to be paid for somehow. Would you back a rise in income tax to pay for a fund that bails out every industry in trouble? Not only will this not fly, it wont actually make our economy any better.

Oh, and the procurement issue is a complete red herring. I'm sure everyone wants to buy British, until it costs us more. Also, if every country did this, many UK companies that DO compete on a international level will find their access to government contracts elsewhere cut off, which will end up with just as many companies screwed as it will help.

In any market, if you face competition you can do 3 things.

1: Be Cheaper
2: Be Better
3: Be Different.

If you can't do any of those things, I don't think going cap in hand to the government should be option number 4.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

It was option #4 that got us screwed in the late 70's. I remember British Steel, as was, costing £3m per DAY! That insanity had to stop before the country was bankrupted however harsh it was to those whose jobs were no longer viable.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Not saying I agree or disagree wherever Arthur was going with that but he has a point when it relates to Port Talbot. The area always has been an unemployment blackspot with little or no prospects of advancement for some. The general 'community feel' to PT means that many people have elderly or disabled relatives living with them so while they may have a job, the option of moving away for new employment is not as straightforward as outsiders may initially think.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Any community relying on a single industry or source of employment is forever in danger if that industry declines.

The key there is for local government to encourage a vibrant mix of business to exist and never rely on one large "good thing", especially for nostalgia reasons as Port Talbot have now found to their detriment.

Again, the answer isn't to try to prop up an industry that has been pummelled, but find uses for the skills this community has in innovative ways that can compete on a local and international level. Not easy, and the pull towards an industry that most of the community knows is strong. One must sometimes break the links with the past to get on and calling to save the woefully outmoded steel plants (Blast furnaces, really. Look at the US for examples of modern steel works that are far more efficient and can be scaled to meet demand, rather than simply be "off" or "on") wont help anyone in the long run.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

There is a polish family near me with disabled twin daughters, they managed to move country's an get their home refitted for the 2 disabled kids. So ya know......... I think some British need a wake up call.

All this "nice politics" bull is getting stupid sometimes you have to roll up your sleeves an get knee deep in crap inorder to get out the crap. Not just sit back being a victim

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Hope this helps your confusion

http://www.northeastlabour.eu/confir...ved-steelworks

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You seem to be the one confused. As I already posted and there is nothing in your link that contradicts it.
The money would have to be for specific things and NOT for keeping the plant open. IIRC one closed plant ran up losses of £300m. That meant the steel they were selling was at BELOW cost, ie DUMPING.

The "extra costs" I referred to, are the climate change ones.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Does this family own their own home or is this social housing you are referring to?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Please that list is so ambiguous it even had temporary renationalisation included in it, the reasons are spurious to, like the area around the plant was contaminated, well that'd be reason to shut it not for the Italian government to step in and save it. More could've been done imo

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Social housing why? So much of the new development I live on had to have social housing on it. People like you are a massive part of what's wrong with this country. Why should it matter if they live in social housing/private rented/home owner??

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You said:

I was curious if they own their own home or if it was provided for them? It matters because if they were allocated social housing which was re-fitted at the tax payers expense for disabled access then this would be ironic since this is exactly what many people on this forum and in the right wing press complain about :) .. and you used it as an example to inspire the residents of Port Talbot to stop whinging.

Inspired ..

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

DC was more worried about corruption in tennis than steel.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You're obsessed with left wing/ right wing, I just want to see people who need being helped and people stealing from those that need help with false claims for help being dealt with. An those that can help themselves doing so!

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Didn't answer the question then ..

You are so wrong: I have worked hard all my life and currently earn enough to be in the upper part of the 10th decile group for income distribution so I pay far more into the system than most.

I am not sure why you are resorting to insults, maybe you feel you have lost the argument?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You're question was you were curious if they own the home or rented it, I stated they owned it. Question answered.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I look at it this way. My father was born in Wales, l have been to various parts of Wales of the years. And they are great people.

I worked in Wales in the time of the Miners strike, where thousands of miners were ripped to pieces on what to do wether to work or go on strike to support there families.

The Mining Industry has been wiped out by Conservative Party, and now we have the steel Inudustry being wiped out by cheap imports. And yet, the Conservative Party are allowing this to happen.

They spent millions saving the banks, and yet they cannot save British Indutries. They are allowing cheap foreign imports to enter the British Market.

I believe what is happening is that Cameron and his puppet Osborne are just selling out to countries to can offer something to the rich, never mind communities.

Many years ago, this Country was the Biggest exporter of major goods. Now we are selling out

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

How are we selling out, an what major goods was this country the biggest exporter of? As for supporting the banks and letting industry die. Where are the millions in the streets protesting against this?

The millions will never go to the streets because they think it means a return to the Labours 70's. That's a fact,

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

That's a very simplistic view of things.

The steel price has been wiped out (Over 50% fall in 12 months) because Iron ore has dropped like a stone. You're quick to blame China for this mess, but they propped up the market for over 10 years by being the biggest new purchaser of commodities by far, raising their prices and thus keeping our (And Europe's) steel industries afloat be keeping prices higher across the board.

Now China has wobbled, they have a massive over supply of iron ore and thus domestic steel production and like us, it is killing them also. The Chinese strategy is to kill off legacy plants and invest in new tech like electric cars and the tech behind that. It's going to be painful for their industries to adapt too, and while the ruling party may be safe there, on the ground there's a painful transition happening.

That and as they know too well, the old coal fired steel plants are literally choking them to death. The government there are acutely sore about the charges their people are levelling against them regarding air quality and frankly, the status quo of producing steel (And other factory products) cheap with no regard of how it is made will not continue.

It's all too easy to look at the superficial reasons for anything. The mining industry was brutally closed because they were dragged on a decade too long and by the time Thatcher closed them they were a messy, old, and more importantly woefully uncompetitive industry. What happened after that is the scandal, as the divide between the areas that received support, and those just left to rot are pretty obvious to this day.

You can believe what you like, but if you look at this graph and tell me this is somehow Cameron and Co's doing, you are delusional. http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/BCOM:IND
Click 1Y on the graph. This is a measure of all commodities in the Bloomberg Index. As a whole, there has been a fall of near 30% since may. This affects everything from energy, to agriculture, to industry. Primary producers, from Iron Ore miners in Australia to dairy farmers here and in NZ are screwed.

Usually, places like PT would actually benefit from lower input prices, but because of our energy prices being too high, and because blast furnace produced steel is among the least efficient, it simply cannot cope with price falls that not only out-strip input cost falls, but with no market to sell their products to with too much steel in the first place.

As I said before, this is brutal, unfair and I feel for those affected, but we cannot support legacy industry just because that is all a community knows. Port Talbot needs targeted support to utilise the workforce and their skills in a way that CAN compete in an international market, not keep going a plant that is not fit for the 21st century.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Devastated.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I wonder how realistic it is for the government to ensure they use only British steel for infrastructure projects?

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Also the image Sajid Javid at a black tie event in Australia doesn't contrast well with the image of Corbyn at the plant in Port Talbot...

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I just deleted my post because this said it far better.

:tu:

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I feel that the latest news of the whole British Steel industry is going to be wiped out. Is a disgrace for the Tories.

They wiped out the Miners, and now they are allowing the Steel Industry to go the same way.

Under the Conservative's MORE companies, and Industries have gone under.

In the Midlands, which was known as the heart of British Industry, this has almost gone under

We are NOT talking of 500 people, being made redundant - we are talking of 15.000, plus the support chain.

What company will invest in the Steel Industry, when it has lost out to cheap Imports.

I can just imagine it. Cameron and Co will have a meeting, and say, what other industry can we destroy.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

*yawn* Your simplistic "its all the tories fault" is becoming very tiresome. Did you even read the excellent post above ?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Paul, if you wish to go down the Polictical route. When Labour was in Government, how many Large Indusries went bust.

Under the Conservatives, we have seen the total wipe out of the Coal Industries, and Now the Steel Industry. We had the Chocolate Industry move abroad with FORIEGN OWNERS, this CADBURY chocolate, is now produced abroad

We have a proud British Work Force in this Country, But all the Tories are doing is ALLOWING foreign companies to move in and PRODUCE goods for the UK market

We have been under a Conservative for well over TEN YEARS, We have also BOMBERDIER, The train company lose a major Contract to overseas company.

I cannot think of anything else.

BUT, this would not be allowed under a Labour government

Can you prove me wrong.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

http://researchbriefings.files.parli...7/CBP-7317.pdf

Page 5 graph shows the British Steel industry output declining by over 40% between 1998 and 2009.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-uk-...-under-labour/

The number of people employed in the British Steel industry declined from 35000 in 1997 to 19000 in 2010, and output halved.

And as you have been informed before, Bombardier is a Canadian company...

Kraft acquired Cadburys under a Labour Government.

The Manufacturing Industry declined from 18% of GDP to 11% of GDP during the Labour governments of 1997-2010.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-lab...manufacturing/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8499853.stm

The Conservatives have been in power (coalition or on their own) for just under 6 years, not well over 10.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Yes. See above.

:rofl:

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Well you have proved me wrong. BUT, at the end of the day, we are talking about thousands of British workers, being made redundant. Which is unfair and wrong.

David Cameron should be doing something to stop this happening. Remember, he said 'we are in this together'

Or is DC going to allow foreign imports, to cripple this country. No matter where you look, we need steel in this country.

There was a report in todays news, that TATA coulsd produce coal from PT. and this would offet the cost.

DC cannor be allowed to let this country go no lower.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Yes of course any job losses are tragic and unfair.

However as has already been stated in the thread, its not the Tories fault. Industry has changed over the years and if its cheaper for companies to import then thats what they will do. You can't stop change.

you may not always agree but if you were the companies getting materials imported which would save you a lot of money to ensure that YOUR business kept running, then you would probably take that option.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Odd how Arthur isn't moaning about the loss of jobs in the oil industry, possibly because he quite likes cheaper petrol and all the things that accompany it...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...iness-34193720

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

lets put it this way. What is the role of the Prime Minister. who we do or nor vote for.

Its to protect and bring out policies that will benefit the British People. And to boost British Industry.

Each time we vote for an MP, its to work for our ward, and to give usthe help we need from an MP.

When we get a Prime Minister, its his job to protect the UNITED KINGDOM, and to give information to the QUEEN,
Its his or job to protect the interest the BRITISH PEOPLE.

That's to protect the WHOLE of the UNITED KINGDOM

At th present time Cameron is failing on all points

Wether its Oil, Coal, steel or anything. Its up to the Prime Minister to protect us.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Make the case for how supporting an uncompetitive steel industry with taxpayers' money benefits the British people and I'll be listening.

By British people I mean all of us, not just those whose jobs may be saved, given we'll all be footing the bill.

I've no idea what you're referring to with oil. Are you suggesting we subsidise North Sea oilfields to compensate them for the low prices?

China produced more steel in the last 2 years than we have since the industrial revolution. To protect our steel industry through intervention would require nationalisation and an open wallet or to go to the EU and try and have trade barriers put up against Chinese steel.

Every time you complain about the taxes you pay it implies you wouldn't be in favour of nationalisation, unless of course the plan is that other people pay, and there's no way we could get the EU machine to aid us quickly enough, so what are the options?

What both protects those who work in the industry and takes account of the interests of those footing the bill Arthur?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

If the steelworks closes then it will destroy Port Talbot. I'll be the first to slag the town off (although I won't let people who have never been there have a go at it for some reason....), I grew up and lived there for 30+ years and it's not the prettiest by any stretch of the imagination but PT without the plant will massively impact what is already an unemployment blackspot. It's estimated 25,000 jobs will go if you also factor in all the companies that rely on the steelworks or have strong business ties to it. Port Talbot has a population of around 35,000.

Re-nationalisation if only temporarily while the place is stabilised long enough to make it viable for a buyer to come along seems the only way forward. The government did it with the banks, why not the steelworks? Ah that's right, PT and the steel industry is too working class.....

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Also because banking was still a viable industry despite the crash and, importantly, because the risk to the rest of the economy from the banking system going under would have dwarfed the effect the collapse of the steel industry will have.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Shipbulding-gone,Coalmining-gone ,Fishing near as damn gone,Steelmaking- going going gone.Governments of all colours have sold us down the river.Never mind britain is good at the service industries i.e.selling chinese made crap in shops,serving pints/meals in pubs,and a tourist destination so people can see how great this country used to be.We used to lead the way, now we are are not even following but lagging way behind.We have sold off all the family silver and have nothing left to pawn.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

The problem is, without another super-cycle in commodities like we have seen with China, it is unlikely PT will ever be viable as it stands.

There's a reason why most of US made steel is now made with methods other than blast furnaces at the start of the process (Info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_a..._United_States) and at least 2 major blast furnace powered sites have shut down in the last decade there.

Newer methods of steel production can be varied due to demand, and idled when supply outstrips demand. Blast Furnaces cannot be idled, and thus, PT has had to continue to produce iron and thus too much material to make steel. Furthermore, blast furnaces are by far the most expensive production method to run, are not exactly environmentally friendly, and unlike newer methods, cannot work with scrap iron and steel.

Basically, the PT blast furnaces are doomed, and whether it gets a stay of execution or not is really besides the point. As we have seen calls for nationalisation, I think a better use of around the money would be to help pay for new, modern furnaces at PT, that can then feed the steelworks and other industry. That way we can keep a vital industry (The steel producing side is very, very much required for manufacturing here), but ditch the part which is causing most of the problems.

Again, like I said before, it'll be painful, as it will mean heavy job losses on the furnace side as modern production methods are leaner and need less manpower, but it will safeguard production here for decades and protect against price shocks like we have seen, rather than punt things down the road and hope that prices don't fall again. I've lost count of the amount of times I hear "Well, once Steel prices rise, we will be fine", but nothing acknowledging that if steel prices fall again after that, we'll be back here.

We cannot stay with the status quo. Govt has a role to play to help transition PT into a 21st century facility, but cannot subsidise a legacy industry just because.

I will never slag off PT, the workers there or the community. It isn't their fault at all and the whole community needs as much assistance as can be granted. However, that means taking brave steps for the long term, and short term, it will hurt.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

^^ This.

I remember when the as then British steel was a nationalised industry in the late 70's and it was costing the tax payer £3million a day! Together with British Leyland, shipbuilding and British coal, all nationalised, they were bleeding the country dry.

It wasn't viable then and it still isn't.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Was in pittsburgh(king steel)usa last year.Nothing left of the huge steel works except a few chimneys left for posterity.What is there now?. A shopping centre of course.Shape of things to come.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

It's not called "The Rust Belt" for nothing.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Too true.

If Brown had let the banking system collapse what would have kept UK PLC running in the aftermath? The effects would have been staggering!

Let's not forget that for every one easy target fat cat banker there are hundreds of ordinary bank workers who have lost their jobs too since the banking crisis. All the banks lost staff, thousands, anyone recall Bradford and Bingley, Northern Rock? No, of course not they were just greedy CITY bankers weren't they. :rolleyes: The financial sector has shed vast numbers of jobs since 2008 and most of them are ordinary, hard working people who had as much to do with the failures of the banking system as Port Talbot steelworkers have to do with the global price of steel. Still I suppose anyone who wears a suit to work is fair game eh?...

Most people will have a lot of sympathy for those who'll lose their jobs and the effects that will have on those communities but surely nobody's going to try to pretend that the state effectively taking on up these uncompetitive industries is going to be cost or pain free, even if it's possible under EU laws. A nice simple quick fix which won't affect anything or anyone else? Yeah right.

People like Arthur want it both ways. In fact they want it any way which doesn't impinge negatively on their lives whilst providing an opportunity to blame someone called a Tory even when his beloved Labour were actually responsible as shown above. They whine about cuts to this, that and the other and demand higher benefits, more/better services, better wages yet at the same time moan when prices, rents and taxes go up as a consequence. Point out the entirely contradictory nature of their demands and gripes and they scuttle off only to reappear a few days later with the same tired old nonsense.

---------- Post added at 10:36 ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 ----------

Exactly... and how many of those mouthing off about saving jobs actually put their cash where their mouths were and bought BL cars as? We were subsidising, for the most part, dodgy British built cars when people wanted to buy better and/or cheaper imported offerings. Odd that eh?...

Someone please tell me who's going to want to buy expensive British made steel knowing they'll have to pass on the extra costs of that to the consumer and end user who in many cases will simply decide to shop elsewhere?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I wondered that, considering steel would be needed for HS2, Crossrail 3, a successor to trident and many other things if the Government would find enough business in it's own infrastructure projects? It may be cheaper to import steel but might not be cheaper once you factor in the cost of losing jobs.

That said they seem to be losing so much money at PT that it may be cheaper to buy steel elsewhere and pay off thousands of workers for life than keep it going. I don't really know.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Pretty much what happened with the coal industry ...

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Well, if PT is losing £1 million a day, the Govt could actually pay £20,000 (In benefits and lost tax revenue) to 15,000 people (Which is what is said to be at stake here in total if PT went under) a year. This would cost £821,917 a day, so would be cheaper than eating the losses at the plant. The losses currently at the plant are staggering and to be honest, 15,000 jobs lost is a doomsday scenario. Just taking the plant and eating that sort of loss is not only fiscally irresponsible anyway, but maybe more expensive than the "worst case" scenario.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

The cost to the local economy, given that the benefits paid to the workers would in many cases be lower than their wages, would be significant. There is also a long-term socio-economic cost associated with long term high levels of unemployment in a community. Abandoning the plant in favour of putting the workers on benefits should be at the bottom of a long list of potential solutions to the problem.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Oh yes, I totally agree, and I didn't mean to say that I supported that idea at all. Closing up shop completely and throwing that many skilled workers onto the scrapheap would be a monumentally stupid idea. So would full nationalisation and putting taxpayers on the hook for the plant would not fly.

However, if a credible, long term plan can be created that takes into account the full economic cycle and potential pitfalls associated with fluctuating commodity prices? The Govt should provide support to realise such a plan. Any plan that boils down to "Lend us some money, you know we'll be good for it when prices rise" should be refused.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

we should do what america does, reward government contracts to uk firms, make the contracts generous enough if needed to single handedly keep the company afloat, if no contracts to give out, then think of some phony thing to order.

Sadly this is way beyond us now, we got our services and financial sectors to worry about. Whilst calling all the redundant manual workers benefit scroungers.

So in this case we approach the steel company, ask them what contract they need to make the plant viable, draw it up.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

EU tariff rules have allowed the flooding of markets with cheaper, inferior quality, Chinese steel. In fact not just allowed, but positively welcomed.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Sorry but that really is as much nonsense as claiming none of them are.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I keep on hearing this, but if Chinese Steel was so much worse, wouldn't customers value the higher quality enough to pay for it? After all, if this steel is so rubbish that it would have a higher TCO than the alternatives, only a fool would buy it.

I suspect that it's all too easy to demonise a competitor by calling them rubbish, while at the same time actual customers of the stuff don't seem to be saying the same thing.

Again, blame China for causing the crash ignores the fact that steel production, iron ore mining etc spiked in the last decade thanks to higher demand and thus prices. The higher demand came from China. So, blame them for the crash sure, thank them for giving the industries 10 years of profits first. Also, this isn't a new thing. Basically Iron/Steel went mad up until 2009, cratered and hasn't recovered since. PT has been losing money for a good while, and the last year has only caused more pain. While Anti-Dumping tariffs would make a dent, it would not make this plant profitable.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Yes that does seem to be rather ironic, especially now.

If there is a significant market for better quality steel made in the UK then maybe HMG could go about specifying its use for govt. contracts etc. especially where quality and longevity would have additional benefits than using cheaper steel. However, forcing private companies to use an over-specified product where a cheaper alternative would clearly suffice simply means the additional costs are just passed on to someone else right down to the guy in the street who hasn't had a decent pay rise for years but winds up paying more in taxes, prices etc.

It's interesting to note how nobody, so far as I can see, seems to be objecting to cheap oil flooding the UK market because they rather like petrol being 2/3 or the price it was not too long ago. Few tears for all the North Sea oil workers and the businesses which depend on them...

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I'm sure anybody buying steel has a solid specification and if the Chinese steel wasn't of good enough quality they wouldn't buy it.

The fact is that China can make, sell and ship steel at a price lower than our cost of production. If it wasn't China it'd be Korea or some other up and coming Asian country and don't forget that Africa has a huge pool of cheap labour and abundant commodities. It might be them next.:erm:

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Not with the Government allowing the likes of Amazon to actively destroy the Retail industry.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

If you look at the graphs in the BBC link, then you can see UK steel production dropped from 17,000tonnes in 1997 to 11,500tonnes by 2005(BEFORE banking problems) and 10,000tonnes by 2010. It recovered a bit in the past few years. The workforce went from around 35,000 in 1997 to less than 20,000 by 2010. Who was in Government during those years?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I was talking globally, but yes, we've been dropping production for a while anyway because of our lack of ability to compete, even in the good times.

I'm not for making this into a political football however, that does a dis-service to those jobs relying on a credible, long term solution for the industry.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

That's another good example of a situation in which large numbers of people care far less about other people's jobs than they do getting their stuff at a good price and delivered efficiently. It's all very well banging on about protecting jobs but when it's our money we're spending we tend to seek out the cheapest option for getting what we want and if that means buying from a massive conglomerate which pays hardly any tax so be it. There's a good deal of hypocrisy about.

---------- Post added at 12:26 ---------- Previous post was at 12:21 ----------

Sadly long-termism hasn't been a feature of many governments I can recall but with the pace of change ramping up ever faster, maybe the days of being able to plan well in advance for the future are over anyway. :shrug:

The trouble is that in the time we're still chewing over what to do about a problem, then going through the inevitable protracted sequence of procedures before doing anything on the ground, the likes of the Chinese have already seen and done it, unhampered by the sort of red tape and legal issues we're always bogged down with. I reckon that we'll have cracked nuclear fusion before the new fission plants are built...

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Shouldn't any long term strategy have started before 2010? UK production fell whilst worldwide demand went up, so what solution could there be?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Ask Tata Steel. They own the plant after all.

The fact that this is now an issue for Govt is because they no longer want to support the Port Talbot plant. In 2010, they did.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Isnt it strange, that some people are sdaying that I want it both ways.

We are talking about 15.000, leading to 20.000 people, with families losing there jobs. And being placed on the Dole. If members, think that funny. Well shame on you.

Wales has already been hit badly, by the destruction of the Mining Industry. Totally wiped out.
Now we have the Steel Industry going the same way.

Its people we are talking about. I doubt very much if there are many jobs going in PT, even in Wales.

What the Government should be doing, is exactly right what someone has already said.

The UK government should be giving Orders to BRITISH companies first and foremost.

Not Foreign Companies.

Its about families at the end of the day. I have been made redundant three times, and its not bloody funny, going to the JC and being told that 'you are to experienced' for a pocksy job at 16 grand a year.

In understand that a Company has said that it will go into talks about buying half the plant, but not the Furnaces

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Nobody thinks it's funny, Arthur - shame on you for saying so.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Indeed its going to be terrible for all the people who are highly likely going to be losing their jobs..

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Hugh, I apologise for the 'shame' bit, but its frustrating. That nothing can be done to save all those jobs.

But l read this on the Beeb, website. Interesting read

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...nment-bail-out

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...71807702753280

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/stat...72990408388608

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

For peeps information "grain orientated steel" is used in electrical transformers of all sizes and is a premium product.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Are China purposefully trying to kill off British steel then?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Given they have a serious over-capacity problem, I suspect they're simply trying to protect their own market. You can't blame them for that. We should be doing the same thing.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

:tu:

And let is not forget that the steel industry was built upon the back of the coal industry, especially in the UK. The sharp decline in the coal industry, especially in regard to it's effect on pollution, has been having a knock-on effect on the steel industry for a few decades at least. Not so in China where coal production and use is still rising.

TATA has been trying to negotiate cheap power prices in the UK which suppliers were refusing to do.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Putting aside the free market logic to the demise of PT, are there not arguemnts where market intervention should be considered?

- when the industry represents a strategic asset/skill set that is in the National interest to retain
- when the market is being artifically manipulated to remove competition with a view to future price increases when the competition is gone
- when the UK, as part of a larger trading block, should consider tarrifs to advantage block suppliers over Chinese ones. Isn't this what the US did to protect its interests: U.S. Calls for 256% Tariff on Imports of Steel From China ?

Are we sure our Government are taking these into due consideration?

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Our Government also has to take EU regulations and guidelines into consideration - it is not a free player in this matter (not saying whether it is a good thing or not, just pointing the fact out).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/articl...nment-bail-out

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-35962358

Oh wait, didn't I say exactly this earlier? May I have a job in consultation for the steel industry please? :)

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

You do have to ask why the UK government vetoed a beefing up of the EUs anti dumping regulations - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/...ur-with-china/

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Tata Steel deal saves 4,400 UK jobs.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...s-4400-uk-jobs

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Greybull actually announced the same investment in December of last year, but as a shareholder.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36073140

And thus the price will rise.... they're not daft are they....

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

US doing the right thing:

US slaps China steel imports with five-fold tax increase

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

In 2014 we imported 687,000 tonnes of steel from China and 4.7 million tonnes from the rest of the EU.

I'll leave that with you.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

My point is the US response to Chinese dumping of steel. Something the EU, led by the UK, should be advocating ..

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

My point is made in the context of this thread's title and topic.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Indeed it is and mine also is: similar action by the EU, led by the UK government, could have helped to preserve the UK steel industry including Port Talbot.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

Although action against the 7 times as much steel imported from the EU may have been even more useful but was impossible due to free trade agreements as part of the EU.

The steel China exported to us was generally cheap and not of especially exceptional quality. The most direct replacements for Port Talbot's higher quality output came from the EU with a couple of specific cases mentioned.

So would it have been a good thing in your mind for us to have trade barriers with the EU to ensure that Port Talbot's output had been purchased by our manufacturers first, with EU and Chinese steel priced high by tariffs?

Seems a bit discriminatory if you think that our home grown producers being undercut by China is bad while their being undercut by EU countries is fine. Port Talbot hurts either way.

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I was reading a number articles that seem to contradict your position e.g.

EU states point finger over Tata Steel and anti-dumping tariffs

Let's agree to differ on this ...

Re: Here we go again - Port Talbot to axe 1,000 steel jobs
 

I didn't actually give a position on that, I merely pointed out that we imported far more from the EU than we did from China in 2014.

My unsubtle implication was that to protect Port Talbot would've required us to have 'trade defence instruments' against the EU.

Unlike the EU I'm bothered by the UK's steel industry. The EU is by definition a single market and couldn't care less where steel is produced as long as it's within the EU. As far as EU-wide institutions go zero poops given regarding UK steel. They would be perfectly content it we didn't have any steel production as long as we import from the EU.

I'd recommend a read of the below from Business Insider UK and the Grauniad. Cutting off Chinese steel overnight still leaves cheaper European steel available for our manufacturers to buy. Guess what they are going to do?

http://uk.businessinsider.com/uk-ste...-prices-2016-3
https://www.theguardian.com/business...steel-industry

A bit of weakness on the part of the pound to make European steel more expensive might be good.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/05/3.png

It also looks as though our issues are far more home-grown given the big drop in our production relative to Germany, Sweden, et al. Noteworthy also is that we buy more steel from Germany or Spain alone than the entire continent of Asia. Fine from the EU perspective, from the UK one not so much.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2016/05/5.jpg

On another note I do love that term 'trade defence instruments'.

On a UK, not EU, level, I'd say rather than making Chinese steel more expensive we would be far better off making our own steel more competitive. Port Talbot doesn't just compete with dumped Chinese steel but with German, Spanish, Swedish, etc, steel.