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-   -   Superhub : ANYTHING other than SH (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33701987)

MagicMavis 16-12-2015 03:08
ANYTHING other than SH
 
This may have been done to death, but it's late and I can't find the search function on the forum.

I hate the SH. I've now had all four versions (1, 2, 2AC and 3) and hate all of them. I can't stress enough how much I hate all of them. They all manage to be dire for a variety of reasons. I've reached the end of my rope and want to use something else. I don't want to use modem mode with my own router. I want to use my own modem. I'm happy to pay for it. I'll happily hack it to spoof the MAC of the registered SH to try to make it work. I know that VM don't want to allow this though. I need to know if it can be done. Does anyone have experience of this or have an idea where I can start?

I want to be clear, I'm not trying to avoid paying for the service. I'm only too happy to pay for the service. VM offer the best product in my area by an enormous margin, but then hamstring it by forcing use of poor equipment. I just need a way of not using the poor equipment.

Ken W 16-12-2015 05:05
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813044)
This may have been done to death, but it's late and I can't find the search function on the forum.

I hate the SH. I've now had all four versions (1, 2, 2AC and 3) and hate all of them. I can't stress enough how much I hate all of them. They all manage to be dire for a variety of reasons. I've reached the end of my rope and want to use something else. I don't want to use modem mode with my own router. I want to use my own modem. I'm happy to pay for it. I'll happily hack it to spoof the MAC of the registered SH to try to make it work. I know that VM don't want to allow this though. I need to know if it can be done. Does anyone have experience of this or have an idea where I can start?

I want to be clear, I'm not trying to avoid paying for the service. I'm only too happy to pay for the service. VM offer the best product in my area by an enormous margin, but then hamstring it by forcing use of poor equipment. I just need a way of not using the poor equipment.
Virgin Medea will only activate their own supplied modems which is a SH.

Ignitionnet 16-12-2015 07:55
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813044)
I don't want to use modem mode with my own router. I want to use my own modem. I'm happy to pay for it. I'll happily hack it to spoof the MAC of the registered SH to try to make it work. I know that VM don't want to allow this though. I need to know if it can be done. Does anyone have experience of this or have an idea where I can start?
Not going to happen I'm afraid because maths.

MagicMavis 16-12-2015 12:02
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35813054)
Not going to happen I'm afraid because maths.
Sorry, that link is to a software download page. I don't understand.

Gobble 16-12-2015 12:19
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813094)
Sorry, that link is to a software download page. I don't understand.
Links aside. What's wrong with modem mode, except an extra plug and some more space being taken up?

Ignitionnet 16-12-2015 12:25
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813094)
Sorry, that link is to a software download page. I don't understand.
It's a link to a document discussing the security specifications of the technology VM use.

If you are struggling with that you may want to think twice before embarking on this project.

You'll need skills with a soldering iron, and a knowledge of JTAG alongside the requisite components. That's if you're lucky. If you aren't you'll need to learn how to rip data straight off of buses on chipsets.

You'll need knowledge of cable modem operating systems in order to write a bespoke version of the software onto the modem you intend to use.

Essentially you need to rip the RSA certificates and keys from the Superhub 3, place them onto a recipient modem, and program the required software changes to both allow this to be done and to ensure the recipient modem impersonates a Superhub in every conceivable way, as there are many ways besides just the certificates and keys in which a clone may be detected.

Given you're asking on here I'm not convinced you're quite up for that level of investment in time, money and effort :)

Synthetic 16-12-2015 13:10
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I think modem mode with your own router is the obvious answer here OP :)

qasdfdsaq 16-12-2015 13:16
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic (Post 35813101)
I think modem mode with your own router is the obvious answer here OP :)
We all know that but it seems the OP doesn't.

---------- Post added at 14:16 ---------- Previous post was at 14:14 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813044)
I hate the SH.
Join the club.

Quote:
I've reached the end of my rope and want to use something else.
Tough luck. You can't.

Quote:
I don't want to use modem mode with my own router.
Tough luck. Your options are use modem mode, move to the U.S., or lobby the government to change industry regulations.

Quote:
I want to use my own modem.
Tough luck. You can't.

Quote:
I need to know if it can be done.
It can't*

* Not without breaking the law anyway

Stuart 16-12-2015 13:21
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813044)

I want to be clear, I'm not trying to avoid paying for the service. I'm only too happy to pay for the service. VM offer the best product in my area by an enormous margin, but then hamstring it by forcing use of poor equipment. I just need a way of not using the poor equipment.
Let me make this clear. Regardless of whether you wish to pay for services or not, connecting your own equipment to the network is against Virgin's TOS. As such we do not allow discussion of how to do it.

If you have problems with the Superhub, your best option is to switch it to Modem mode and use it with your own router. I already do this, and usually get the 150 meg connection I pay for,

Gavin78 16-12-2015 13:24
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I agree with others just stick the hub into modem mode and use a decent router I don't see the problem?

Is there a reason you don't want to use a router and just have a modem instead?


There are a few things I don't like about the hub 3 but other than that it has been pretty flawless so far and the wifi signal is better than my RT-N56U router and I paid £100 for that about 2 years ago

Stuart 16-12-2015 13:38
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Personally, while I found the Hub to be extremely unreliable as a wireless router (Wifi tended to drop out unless it was rebooted at least once a day), it's fine as a modem.

Ignitionnet 16-12-2015 15:13
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35813105)
Let me make this clear. Regardless of whether you wish to pay for services or not, connecting your own equipment to the network is against Virgin's TOS. As such we do not allow discussion of how to do it.
Thank you for not editing my post.

Anyone who is capable of carrying out those very general, outline steps doesn't need me to tell them that's what they need to do. :)

sollp 16-12-2015 18:34
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Any explanation of what issues your having would benefit the class? Maybe some help could be given

Mr K 16-12-2015 19:11
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Have you at least tried Modem mode OP? I've never had any issues using a Superdud this way. You don't need an expensive router either to get full speed , I've never paid more than £30 - although VM should be paying really as they are incapable of producing a decent router themselves.

MagicMavis 17-12-2015 00:40
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken W (Post 35813048)
Virgin Medea will only activate their own supplied modems which is a SH.
I know that, which is why I was asking if there was a way around it. Otherwise I would just buy my own and use it without needing to ask.

---------- Post added at 23:48 ---------- Previous post was at 23:27 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813096)
Links aside. What's wrong with modem mode, except an extra plug and some more space being taken up?
As mentioned in my original post, I seriously hate all of these things. As hardware they're dire. Utter crap.

My other massive bugbear with these things is the principle. I was an early "lucky recipient" of the SH1. It worked fine as long as I didn't want to use WiFi, especially if - heaven forbid - I wanted to change the SSID, hide it and use my own key. Essentially if I wanted it to actually be a user friendly device in any way.

Naturally, I rang VM-CS to complain about how terrible it was and asking to be sent just a modem. They declined. The reason given was that, and I quote almost directly, VM are sick of having to support 3rd party routers on their network. I naturally pointed out that the equipment they had provided was not fit for purpose. He operator suggested - COMPLETELY MISSING THE IRONY - that if I could just wait a week or two (for the R26 software IIRC) then I would be able to activate modem mode and...use my own router.

So, as a basic recap, I have to use their terrible equipment because VM don't want to support 3rd party kit. Yet they accept that their kit is terrible and offer the solution of using 3rd party kit. I can't be the only one to think this is ridiculous?

---------- Post added 17-12-2015 at 00:17 ---------- Previous post was 16-12-2015 at 23:48 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35813097)
It's a link to a document discussing the security specifications of the technology VM use.

If you are struggling with that you may want to think twice before embarking on this project.

You'll need skills with a soldering iron, and a knowledge of JTAG alongside the requisite components. That's if you're lucky. If you aren't you'll need to learn how to rip data straight off of buses on chipsets.

You'll need knowledge of cable modem operating systems in order to write a bespoke version of the software onto the modem you intend to use.

Essentially you need to rip the RSA certificates and keys from the Superhub 3, place them onto a recipient modem, and program the required software changes to both allow this to be done and to ensure the recipient modem impersonates a Superhub in every conceivable way, as there are many ways besides just the certificates and keys in which a clone may be detected.

Given you're asking on here I'm not convinced you're quite up for that level of investment in time, money and effort :)
I didn't struggle at the information on the page. I saw a flippant answer, briefly looked at the page at the end of the link, and decided to wait for a sensible answer. You then wrote this: "Essentially you need to rip the RSA certificates and keys from the Superhub 3, place them onto a recipient modem, and program the required software changes to both allow this to be done and to ensure the recipient modem impersonates a Superhub in every conceivable way, as there are many ways besides just the certificates and keys in which a clone may be detected" which is exactly the answer I was looking for. Back in the day you only needed to clone MAC addresses - although that was what people wanting to avoid paying did and that is NOT my intention. It seems the game has moved on since then.

Cost isn't an issue, soldering is a skill I already have and I'm confident I could have a decent stab at it given the opportunity to learn the necessary coding skills. It seems that may take an awful amount of effort though, so perhaps it has been made too difficult on an effort/reward basis.

---------- Post added at 00:24 ---------- Previous post was at 00:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic (Post 35813101)
I think modem mode with your own router is the obvious answer here OP :)
Obvious, and massively distasteful. I really dislike that kit. I begrudge doing it too, given that they force the SH on people specifically to avoid supporting people using 3rd party routers.

---------- Post added at 00:30 ---------- Previous post was at 00:24 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35813105)
Let me make this clear. Regardless of whether you wish to pay for services or not, connecting your own equipment to the network is against Virgin's TOS. As such we do not allow discussion of how to do it.
Ah, I was unaware of this rule when I posted. Good job you're not being a smart arse while mentioning this then, eh?

---------- Post added at 00:59 ---------- Previous post was at 00:30 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gavin78 (Post 35813107)
I agree with others just stick the hub into modem mode and use a decent router I don't see the problem?

Is there a reason you don't want to use a router and just have a modem instead?


There are a few things I don't like about the hub 3 but other than that it has been pretty flawless so far and the wifi signal is better than my RT-N56U router and I paid £100 for that about 2 years ago
I already have a very considered internal network setup. It would be cleaner if I could just use a small modem rather than a massive box, exactly as it was back in the days of 20Mb/s. Also their whole excuse for foisting this crap upon me is that they don't want to be in a 'their modem/my router' scenario, so for them to suggest exactly that as the solution to their shoddy kit is woeful.

---------- Post added at 01:19 ---------- Previous post was at 00:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart (Post 35813109)
Personally, while I found the Hub to be extremely unreliable as a wireless router (Wifi tended to drop out unless it was rebooted at least once a day), it's fine as a modem.
I don't want to give up the desk space to something so large, ugly or intrusive. VM previously provided modems and routers. Both were proper pieces of kit. This conjoined kit is nothing like as good as either of the old ones.

---------- Post added at 01:38 ---------- Previous post was at 01:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sollp (Post 35813131)
Any explanation of what issues your having would benefit the class? Maybe some help could be given
My issue is that the SH is awful and I want nothing to do with it. The whole premise of it's existence is negated by it's lack of ability to perform that task. I understand the reason for your post and thank you for it, but I don't need assistance with the SH or with network principles. I have a fixed network pulled to three separate switches for devices which don't move, and APs to cover the whole property for mobile devices.

---------- Post added at 01:40 ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35813135)
Have you at least tried Modem mode OP? I've never had any issues using a Superdud this way. You don't need an expensive router either to get full speed , I've never paid more than £30 - although VM should be paying really as they are incapable of producing a decent router themselves.
As above, the point of the SH is so you don't have a separate modem and router solution. If I'm going to use a modem I want a modem, not an unwieldy P.O.S. switched back to just be a modem.

techguyone 17-12-2015 09:30
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
You're out of luck then, you've discovered now how it can't be done. No one's being smart, especially the bold text (which is moderator talk here)

You have 3 very simple choices given that the gap between 'what you want' & 'what is achievable' is. Not withstanding your intractable attitude.

1. Suck it up
2. go ADSL or similar
3. Have no Internet

Good luck.

Synthetic 17-12-2015 09:56
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
EDIT: Post removed. Decided I don't want to get involved in an argument and your obnoxious comments to some members who are actually trying to help and explain things to you.

ianch99 17-12-2015 10:15
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
What I don't understand here is that if the current Superhub works without a problem in modem mode, which it does as I have first hand experience of this, then how can you tell if you are connecting your router to the VM cable modem or to one that you have fabricated (which ironically is likely to be less reliable, if indeed it works at all)?

heero_yuy 17-12-2015 10:28
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Modem mode is fine on the SH. If you don't like the looks of it you can always hide it away somewhere, even under the floor if that's what you want.

qasdfdsaq 17-12-2015 11:11
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Still uses twice as much power as a standalone CM ;)

SimonB79 17-12-2015 11:36
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35813199)
Still uses twice as much power as a standalone CM ;)
I quite like my superhub2ac, it does everything I want, including full 200mbps via wifi... put my proper linksys router in the cupboard! :angel:

MUD_Wizard 17-12-2015 12:09
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813147)
As above, the point of the SH is so you don't have a separate modem and router solution. If I'm going to use a modem I want a modem, not an unwieldy P.O.S. switched back to just be a modem.
Not that this thread hasn't reached an impasse long ago, but curious what exactly do you imagine is the technical difference between running a Docsis modem and a Superhub in modem mode?

You won't get any better service with a non-VM Docsis modem, even if you could set one up to work on the cable network.

So really the difference comes down to only colour, size (those older modems you might be able to provision are usually larger), orientation (flat vs vertical) and name.

qasdfdsaq 17-12-2015 12:21
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MUD_Wizard (Post 35813205)
[COLOR="DarkRed"]Not that this thread hasn't reached an impasse long ago, but curious what exactly do you imagine is the technical difference between running a Docsis modem and a Superhub in modem mode?
The former doesn't morally contribute to the existence of the "unwieldy P.O.S."

Gobble 17-12-2015 12:33
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813147)
My other massive bugbear with these things is the principle. I was an early "lucky recipient" of the SH1. It worked fine as long as I didn't want to use WiFi, especially if - heaven forbid - I wanted to change the SSID, hide it and use my own key. Essentially if I wanted it to actually be a user friendly device in any way.
Agreed, the Superhub 1 as anything but a modem was useless.

Quote:
Naturally, I rang VM-CS to complain about how terrible it was and asking to be sent just a modem. They declined.
The reason given was that, and I quote almost directly, VM are sick of having to support 3rd party routers on their network. I naturally pointed out that the equipment they had provided was not fit for purpose. He operator suggested - COMPLETELY MISSING THE IRONY - that if I could just wait a week or two (for the R26 software IIRC) then I would be able to activate modem mode and...use my own router.
Funny how you mention irony... You're asking them for a modem, to do what with... My guess is plug it into a router, yet when they say you will be able to put the superhub into modem mode, thus being no less better or worse than a modem (on paper), then you have a problem with it?

Quote:
So, as a basic recap, I have to use their terrible equipment because VM don't want to support 3rd party kit. Yet they accept that their kit is terrible and offer the solution of using 3rd party kit. I can't be the only one to think this is ridiculous?
So VM like a **** ton of other ISP's don't want to spend the money having to train their staff on lots of equipment when they can purchase 3rd party equipment (you didn't think they built it themselves did you?) and put a nice VM logo and stamp on it.

The only logical reason for you argument is having 2 boxes and 2 power supplies in use, which for some is annoying, but other than that, there is no actual benefit what-so-ever of you trying to achieve what you're trying to do. In fact, you'd put yourself into a non-legit setup, now matter which way you try and put it, with less support than you're already moaning about.

If you have some logical reasoning for any of this thread, I'm open to hear it. Otherwise, put it in modem mode, get a router and get on with it.

techguyone 17-12-2015 12:34
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Short answer: He doesn't want two boxes.

Gobble 17-12-2015 12:59
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813211)
Short answer: He doesn't want two boxes.
Short answer: You didn't read what he put.

techguyone 17-12-2015 13:23
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Sure I did, the whole OP's beef is that he hates the Shub (understandably, I hate mine too) and wants a solution that involves one box, so I'll say it again for the benefit of THICK people. OP doesn't want TWO boxes.

ianch99 17-12-2015 13:27
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813222)
Sure I did, the whole OP's beef is that he hates the Shub (understandably, I hate mine too) and wants a solution that involves one box, so I'll say it again for the benefit of THICK people. OP doesn't want TWO boxes.
Can't he tape them together?

heero_yuy 17-12-2015 13:39
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813222)
Sure I did, the whole OP's beef is that he hates the Shub (understandably, I hate mine too) and wants a solution that involves one box, so I'll say it again for the benefit of THICK people. OP doesn't want TWO boxes.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/12/6.jpg

:D

Gobble 17-12-2015 13:56
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813222)
Sure I did, the whole OP's beef is that he hates the Shub (understandably, I hate mine too) and wants a solution that involves one box, so I'll say it again for the benefit of THICK people. OP doesn't want TWO boxes.
Quote:
I don't want to use modem mode with my own router. I want to use my own modem
He wants his own modem... Did he mention that said modem would be a modem router combo? No. So that would mean what... a 2nd box for a router?

Quote:
Naturally, I rang VM-CS to complain about how terrible it was and asking to be sent just a modem.
So he's happy to have a modem that's not the superhub, so once again... what's he plugging that into? No router? No 2nd box. With that logic, what's the difference with just having the superhub in modem mode, negating any need for any 2nd box at all?

Quote:
THICK people
At least he's not the only being ironic, which you should maybe think about before trying to besmirch me in front of your pals :dunce:

techguyone 17-12-2015 14:00
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
They're not my pals, I don't think you get it. VM don't have any modems, its S Hub or nothing. If you don't want the shub, you get a router & use it in modem mode or you don't and have nothing. There isn't a VM supplied modem only solution anymore...

BenMcr 17-12-2015 14:04
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Just to point out that as far as I'm aware general it's not just Virgin Media UK that now only supply the combined router / modem solution. The aim will be that all Liberty Global companies supply the same broadband hardware.

Gobble 17-12-2015 14:06
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813229)
They're not my pals
Figure of speech...

Quote:
I don't think you get it. VM don't have any modems, its S Hub or nothing. If you don't want the shub, you get a router & use it in modem mode or you don't and have nothing. There isn't a VM supplied modem only solution anymore...
Back the point, whilst they don't supply a modem only solution, they provide the option to put the router into a modem only state. What is the difference?

If the sole reason was for having 1 box, like I said in previous posts, I could agree that it'd be nice to be able to do, but heck some space a bit of power isn't worth losing your nut over. However, the OP's problem isn't with that, it's that he in his own words 'begrudges' using a superhub at all.

techguyone 17-12-2015 14:16
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Good point.

Quote:
Back the point, whilst they don't supply a modem only solution, they provide the option to put the router into a modem only state. What is the difference?
Maybe the OP can answer that.

I'd expect it would be because if you want Wi-Fi or more than one device hardwired it's because you need a Wi-Fi enabled ROUTER as well, and lets face it, the number of households these days that only use a single hardwired point must be far & few between.

But Extra router to meet the extra demands of today's technology means box #2
and that's BAD.
Apparently.

Gobble 17-12-2015 14:25
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813236)
But Extra router to meet the extra demands of today's technology means box #2
and that's BAD.
Apparently.
For me it is a bit of a pain, just more cables and more boxes around the TV, so I can feel his pain, but needs must and all that... :P

techguyone 17-12-2015 14:32
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I'll agree that its a very minor inconvenience, I'm still on a shub 1, maybe with the shub 3 the wi-fi's been addressed.
That's really the only reason I bolted on an external router.
Otherwise, both devices have 4 ports (I'm not on a fast enough speed to need a gigabit router) although my PC is capable when I get to that kind of speed, I'd expect us to be on shub 5 by then which will probably all be gigabit ethernet ported anyway.

BenMcr 17-12-2015 14:38
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
All of the D3 Hubs, including the SH1, are Gigabit Ethernet already.

techguyone 17-12-2015 14:50
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Hrmm I thought the Shub1 was only on 1 port (I may be mixing it up with the BT home hub though)

MagicMavis 17-12-2015 15:48
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35813195)
What I don't understand here is that if the current Superhub works without a problem in modem mode, which it does as I have first hand experience of this, then how can you tell if you are connecting your router to the VM cable modem or to one that you have fabricated (which ironically is likely to be less reliable, if indeed it works at all)?
I just want nothing to do with any of the models of Sh1tHub. They've all been nothing but dreadful when I've used them. The reason for the original post was that I didn't know the lengths I would have to go to to make a non-standard work. If it was a simple MAC address fudge that is easy enough to do but it turns out that it's a lot more involved, so I'm looking at other options.

I understand that the reason for the SH in the first place is because VM don't want to support the many varieties of router available. I totally understand that. What I find distasteful is that the CPE they the supply is utter crap, and that their solution is to use...their box as a modem. So, they don't want me to use my own kit, but the offered solution to their kit being terrible is...for me to use my own kit. This leaves them no further forward than me using a modem with my own router, except I would bet real cash money on the SH costing VM considerably more than a clean modem would.

---------- Post added at 16:48 ---------- Previous post was at 16:44 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Synthetic (Post 35813192)
EDIT: Post removed. Decided I don't want to get involved in an argument and your obnoxious comments to some members who are actually trying to help and explain things to you.
"Because Maths" is not trying to help. It's not trying anything. It's successfully being a smart arse. The second answer given by the same person was perfect, which I acknowledged.

Where I'm from, typing in bold is the same as typing in all caps.

techguyone 17-12-2015 15:51
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Cool, let us know your other 'options'

MagicMavis 17-12-2015 15:59
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813190)
You're out of luck then, you've discovered now how it can't be done. No one's being smart, especially the bold text (which is moderator talk here)

You have 3 very simple choices given that the gap between 'what you want' & 'what is achievable' is. Not withstanding your intractable attitude.

1. Suck it up
2. go ADSL or similar
3. Have no Internet

Good luck.
Your mention of attitude is interesting. My attitude in reply has only ever mirrored the attitude of the post I was replying to. Making a 3rd party modem work is definitely achievable, but timeframe and effort make it impractical.

At the moment, I'm exploring a fourth option.

ianch99 17-12-2015 16:03
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813253)
I just want nothing to do with any of the models of Sh1tHub. They've all been nothing but dreadful when I've used them. The reason for the original post was that I didn't know the lengths I would have to go to to make a non-standard work. If it was a simple MAC address fudge that is easy enough to do but it turns out that it's a lot more involved, so I'm looking at other options.

I understand that the reason for the SH in the first place is because VM don't want to support the many varieties of router available. I totally understand that. What I find distasteful is that the CPE they the supply is utter crap, and that their solution is to use...their box as a modem. So, they don't want me to use my own kit, but the offered solution to their kit being terrible is...for me to use my own kit. This leaves them no further forward than me using a modem with my own router, except I would bet real cash money on the SH costing VM considerably more than a clean modem would
but the Superhub works perfectly as a cable modem when in modem mode ...

MagicMavis 17-12-2015 16:30
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35813196)
Modem mode is fine on the SH. If you don't like the looks of it you can always hide it away somewhere, even under the floor if that's what you want.
I'm still suspicious of the SH even in modem mode. They've all been terrible so far. I've considered hiding it away but that makes it harder to get at to reset when it falls over!

---------- Post added at 17:11 ---------- Previous post was at 17:08 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35813258)
but the Superhub works perfectly as a cable modem when in modem mode ...
I'm not so convinced I'm afraid. They've still hiccuped like the old modems never did. The only bother my old modem gave back in the day was when the "you're up to date with your bill" light went out and I had to call and pay!

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:11 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by qasdfdsaq (Post 35813199)
Still uses twice as much power as a standalone CM ;)
This is one of the pile of things that irritates me about the SHs. This thing is on 24/7, so it's a raise in background cost.

---------- Post added at 17:15 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonB79 (Post 35813202)
I quite like my superhub2ac, it does everything I want, including full 200mbps via wifi... put my proper linksys router in the cupboard! :angel:
The 2ac was the best of the bunch, but then that's no compliment! It still needed to be reset far more often than I would have liked.

---------- Post added at 17:30 ---------- Previous post was at 17:15 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by MUD_Wizard (Post 35813205)
Not that this thread hasn't reached an impasse long ago, but curious what exactly do you imagine is the technical difference between running a Docsis modem and a Superhub in modem mode?

You won't get any better service with a non-VM Docsis modem, even if you could set one up to work on the cable network.

So really the difference comes down to only colour, size (those older modems you might be able to provision are usually larger), orientation (flat vs vertical) and name.
You're absolutely right; I had a question and it has been answered excellently. Yes, it is probably possible to make a 3rd party modem work. No, it's not worth the effort of learning to rip/transplant code, for that to then not definitely work.

The biggest difference between the SH and a standalone modem would be getting rid of the bitter taste of having to use the SH at all. After that, the possibility - now debunked - of better reliability ranks high. I disagree that a proper modem would be no more successful than the SH. My opinion may be biased but it truly is the least reliable thing I've ever used, and I used to own a Peugeot 306. The differences are power usage, reliability, size/desk space and general taste in my mouth from using it.

qasdfdsaq 17-12-2015 16:38
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813256)
Your mention of attitude is interesting. My attitude in reply has only ever mirrored the attitude of the post I was replying to. Making a 3rd party modem work is definitely achievable, but timeframe and effort make it impractical.

At the moment, I'm exploring a fourth option.
Impractical isn't the issue. Illegal is the issue, and therefore it cannot be discussed here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813263)
I'm not so convinced I'm afraid. They've still hiccuped like the old modems never did.
ORLY...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813263)
The biggest difference between the SH and a standalone modem would be getting rid of the bitter taste of having to use the SH at all.
Unfortunately your bitter taste was a factor not considered when VM choose what CPE to provide.

heero_yuy 17-12-2015 17:01
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813263)
I'm still suspicious of the SH even in modem mode. They've all been terrible so far. I've considered hiding it away but that makes it harder to get at to reset when it falls over!
Well all I can say is I've thrashed my SH1, modem mode, to death with torrents and it has never faltered or reset even with my net access saturated. From the early days I've used a separate router where I can control things with much better precision than the SH could ever achieve.

General Maximus 17-12-2015 17:07
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35813231)
Just to point out that as far as I'm aware general...
are you talking to me because I haven't made a post in this thread yet?

techguyone 17-12-2015 17:16
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35813284)
Well all I can say is I've thrashed my SH1, modem mode, to death with torrents and it has never faltered or reset even with my net access saturated. From the early days I've used a separate router where I can control things with much better precision than the SH could ever achieve.
Same here I reckon if I reboot mine once a month, i'd be pushing it, it's probably nearer every two.

OP does make me laugh 'Suspicious of his shub' What does he think it's going to do, report him to GCHQ or something?

MagicMavis 17-12-2015 17:43
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813210)
Agreed, the Superhub 1 as anything but a modem was useless.
Absolutely.

Quote:
Funny how you mention irony... You're asking them for a modem, to do what with... My guess is plug it into a router, yet when they say you will be able to put the superhub into modem mode, thus being no less better or worse than a modem (on paper), then you have a problem with it?
I think you've missed my point. The whole issue starts with VM forcing terrible kit on users to avoid supporting diverse equipment, but then actually recommending diverse equipment to overcome the shortcomings of the supplied kit.

Quote:
So VM like a **** ton of other ISP's don't want to spend the money having to train their staff on lots of equipment when they can purchase 3rd party equipment (you didn't think they built it themselves did you?) and put a nice VM logo and stamp on it.
I understand that they don't want to support a ton of different kit, and yes, I realise the SH is built by a 3rd party. Badging it largely makes it 1st party in my eyes.

Quote:
The only logical reason for you argument is having 2 boxes and 2 power supplies in use, which for some is annoying, but other than that, there is no actual benefit what-so-ever of you trying to achieve what you're trying to do. In fact, you'd put yourself into a non-legit setup, now matter which way you try and put it, with less support than you're already moaning about.
That is not the only logical reason, and there is the potential for plenty of benefit as previously mentioned. If you read what I'd previously written properly then you would know that at no stage have I "moaned about support". I don't need support from VM, largely because the field I work in gives me better knowledge of switched/WiFi networking than the script/diagnostic flow their team is forced to work from. When I had to support broadband for my employer I just got on with it no matter which router the customer was using. Google gives you GUI addresses and logins for most routers, then asking the right questions gives you the rest. What I have actually done is complain about equipment which is not fit for purpose, ask for assistance circumventing their terrible choice of kit, state that I don't want to be told to "just use modem mode" (if that was an answer I was happy with then I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place) then reply to the people who suggested just that.

Quote:
If you have some logical reasoning for any of this thread, I'm open to hear it. Otherwise, put it in modem mode, get a router and get on with it.
The logical reason for this thread is that I didn't know if there was a reasonably easy way to circumvent the forced use of the dire kit. That question was properly answered by someone's second reply. Since then I've answered lots of questions posted in response to my initial question. If I wanted to "put it in modem mode, get a router and get on with it" then I wouldn't bother asking the initial question.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813211)
Short answer: He doesn't want two boxes.
To be fair I already have four boxes, if you discount the SH. My point is I do not want the SH. I want a standalone modem because I can trust that to not be *****. From that I can pull a single cable to the firewall/VPN/server I have. That has a single line to the switch, which then has a connection to one other switch, one router - actually supplied by VM as part of their two-box solution years ago - and one wireless AP used to deliver signal where the router can't reach. A simple setup this is not, but it does exactly what I want in exactly the way I want it to.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35813225)
Can't he tape them together?
It was a cheap shot, but still made me laugh! The problem with taping them together is when I set fire to the SH it would also damage my switch ;)

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:25 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy (Post 35813226)
This suffers the same problem as above, except with extra fuel for the fire!

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813229)
They're not my pals, I don't think you get it. VM don't have any modems, its S Hub or nothing. If you don't want the shub, you get a router & use it in modem mode or you don't and have nothing. There isn't a VM supplied modem only solution anymore...
The lack of the modem only solution is the exact issue. As stated previously, I don't need them to support my network. I'd take a fair bet that 95%+ of their staff couldn't if they tried, but that's fine. It is by no means a standard home network.

All I want is a small, efficient, tidy device that I can rely on. None of those things are the SH. I'm prepared to obtain this device at my own financial expense, and to a certain degree with an amount of difficulty and learning thrown in too. The reply which made me more fully aware of the actual difficulty doing this also made me aware that this is probably several bridges too far.

---------- Post added at 18:38 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35813231)
Just to point out that as far as I'm aware general it's not just Virgin Media UK that now only supply the combined router / modem solution. The aim will be that all Liberty Global companies supply the same broadband hardware.
I saw this much in an article a few weeks/months ago on one of the usual suspects online - techradar/Engadget etc. The three is a complete **** take. I tried to manually set the WPA key to one of my choosing and it won't even allow me to save it. I give neither a flying f**k nor rolling doughnut if VM see my password as suitable/safe; it's not obvious but is memorable to friends and family, which is the point. Brilliantly their Twitter lot said the password "has to be up to scratch for me own safety" so I screenshot the option to just turn security off altogether. Strangely, they've not yet answered me on that from over 24 hours ago. If you're going to give me a corporate answer a least don't make it nonsensical.

---------- Post added at 18:43 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813236)
Good point.



Maybe the OP can answer that.

I'd expect it would be because if you want Wi-Fi or more than one device hardwired it's because you need a Wi-Fi enabled ROUTER as well, and lets face it, the number of households these days that only use a single hardwired point must be far & few between.

But Extra router to meet the extra demands of today's technology means box #2
and that's BAD.
Apparently.
You don't need a router to connect more than one hard wired device. My server will happily pick up the DHCP load without noticing so a switch would suffice, but that's me being pedantic.

I'm sorry to give the same basic answer but I just don't want anything to do with any of the SH family. The only reason it is foisted upon us is rendered null and void by it's lack of capability. With that an actual fact, there is no good reason to force it upon us, and plenty of good reasons to not. All I'm asking for is a common sense solution.

ianch99 17-12-2015 17:46
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813293)
Absolutely.



I think you've missed my point. The whole issue starts with VM forcing terrible kit on users to avoid supporting diverse equipment, but then actually recommending diverse equipment to overcome the shortcomings of the supplied kit.



I understand that they don't want to support a ton of different kit, and yes, I realise the SH is built by a 3rd party. Badging it largely makes it 1st party in my eyes.



That is not the only logical reason, and there is the potential for plenty of benefit as previously mentioned. If you read what I'd previously written properly then you would know that at no stage have I "moaned about support". I don't need support from VM, largely because the field I work in gives me better knowledge of switched/WiFi networking than the script/diagnostic flow their team is forced to work from. When I had to support broadband for my employer I just got on with it no matter which router the customer was using. Google gives you GUI addresses and logins for most routers, then asking the right questions gives you the rest. What I have actually done is complain about equipment which is not fit for purpose, ask for assistance circumventing their terrible choice of kit, state that I don't want to be told to "just use modem mode" (if that was an answer I was happy with then I wouldn't be asking the question in the first place) then reply to the people who suggested just that.



The logical reason for this thread is that I didn't know if there was a reasonably easy way to circumvent the forced use of the dire kit. That question was properly answered by someone's second reply. Since then I've answered lots of questions posted in response to my initial question. If I wanted to "put it in modem mode, get a router and get on with it" then I wouldn't bother asking the initial question.

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------



To be fair I already have four boxes, if you discount the SH. My point is I do not want the SH. I want a standalone modem because I can trust that to not be *****. From that I can pull a single cable to the firewall/VPN/server I have. That has a single line to the switch, which then has a connection to one other switch, one router - actually supplied by VM as part of their two-box solution years ago - and one wireless AP used to deliver signal where the router can't reach. A simple setup this is not, but it does exactly what I want in exactly the way I want it to.

---------- Post added at 18:25 ---------- Previous post was at 18:22 ----------



It was a cheap shot, but still made me laugh! The problem with taping them together is when I set fire to the SH it would also damage my switch ;)

---------- Post added at 18:26 ---------- Previous post was at 18:25 ----------



This suffers the same problem as above, except with extra fuel for the fire!

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:26 ----------



The lack of the modem only solution is the exact issue. As stated previously, I don't need them to support my network. I'd take a fair bet that 95%+ of their staff couldn't if they tried, but that's fine. It is by no means a standard home network.

All I want is a small, efficient, tidy device that I can rely on. None of those things are the SH. I'm prepared to obtain this device at my own financial expense, and to a certain degree with an amount of difficulty and learning thrown in too. The reply which made me more fully aware of the actual difficulty doing this also made me aware that this is probably several bridges too far.

---------- Post added at 18:38 ---------- Previous post was at 18:33 ----------



I saw this much in an article a few weeks/months ago on one of the usual suspects online - techradar/Engadget etc. The three is a complete **** take. I tried to manually set the WPA key to one of my choosing and it won't even allow me to save it. I give neither a flying f**k nor rolling doughnut if VM see my password as suitable/safe; it's not obvious but is memorable to friends and family, which is the point. Brilliantly their Twitter lot said the password "has to be up to scratch for me own safety" so I screenshot the option to just turn security off altogether. Strangely, they've not yet answered me on that from over 24 hours ago. If you're going to give me a corporate answer a least don't make it nonsensical.

---------- Post added at 18:43 ---------- Previous post was at 18:38 ----------



You don't need a router to connect more than one hard wired device. My server will happily pick up the DHCP load without noticing so a switch would suffice, but that's me being pedantic.

I'm sorry to give the same basic answer but I just don't want anything to do with any of the SH family. The only reason it is foisted upon us is rendered null and void by it's lack of capability. With that an actual fact, there is no good reason to force it upon us, and plenty of good reasons to not. All I'm asking for is a common sense solution.
I am amazed at the energy you are putting into something you cannot have ..

MagicMavis 17-12-2015 18:00
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813233)
Figure of speech...



Back the point, whilst they don't supply a modem only solution, they provide the option to put the router into a modem only state. What is the difference?

If the sole reason was for having 1 box, like I said in previous posts, I could agree that it'd be nice to be able to do, but heck some space a bit of power isn't worth losing your nut over. However, the OP's problem isn't with that, it's that he in his own words 'begrudges' using a superhub at all.
Look at it from this angle:
Imagine I refused to sell you a car to tow a caravan and forced you to take a camper van instead. Imagine the camper part of it was absolutely terrible. You would complain, wouldn't you? How about I then told you it has a tow bar and you could always sack off the camper part and just tow a caravan with it? You would think that was completely ridiculous would you not?

It's exactly the same situation here. VM don't want to support my router, so they only provide a combined unit which is s**te. They acknowledge this and offer me the ability to use it as a modem only, then expect me to not call them on that? It's senseless. If they can't provide a suitable combined unit, just allow me to use a simple modem.

The difference is that I can find a suitable modem no problem at all. Small, subtle, efficient and reliable. Four things the SH is not.

---------- Post added at 18:57 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813237)
For me it is a bit of a pain, just more cables and more boxes around the TV, so I can feel his pain, but needs must and all that... :P
One cable is no hardship in the pile I already have. Reliability is what I want to see.

---------- Post added at 18:59 ---------- Previous post was at 18:57 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813255)
Cool, let us know your other 'options'
If it works, I may well do that. Although after the number of people getting butthurt because I don't want to use the modem only setting I'm of a mind to just leave them to deal with the SH and all the crap it brings.

---------- Post added at 19:00 ---------- Previous post was at 18:59 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by ianch99 (Post 35813304)
I am amazed at the energy you are putting into something you cannot have ..
I'm just answering questions. Which, to be fair, I had already stated that I had no interest in being asked in my OP.

heero_yuy 17-12-2015 18:15
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Surely you want to go with an ISP that is quite happy to let you connect your own unknown kit to their network?

BTW I'm not aware of such an ISP.

techguyone 17-12-2015 18:32
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
It's not really fair to say that VM 'force you' to use their kit, you do have the choice of not having VM it's not like it's a secret or a surprise what their kit is.

One thing that has occurred to me, from a phone call I had the other day from EE trying to sell me Broadband was their intimation that they could use the VM fibre network under their own ISP (maybe like how ADSL places use BT stuff)
I'm not sure what equipment they provide, or require you to use.

No ones getting butthurt, and I'm sure we'd be interested in seeing a 'solution' I suspect though that reverse engineering a custom modem is extremely dubious if not outright illegal so a non-starter.

I don't normally agree with much of what ianch 99 says but he is right, you're putting in an extraordinary amount of energy to simply avoid having a shub plugged in at all.

vm_tech 17-12-2015 18:35
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
A few points here:

Every ISP provides a hub, which is why VM do it

Look how many issues were had with the SH1, tested by VM and it wasn't great. Now imagine the quantities of unknown kit connected to their network, which the customer could have faults with and be blaming VM for issues.

Unknown kit could send ingress and errors onto the network

One of VM selling points is the free service/repairs it offers, that kind of takes that point away

The OP is the only person I've known to complain the hubs are rubbish in modem mode, when every single other person agrees they work fine.

The config files for speeds on the hubs are written by VM. With your own piece of kit what's preventing you from writing your own config file to add to your kit?

And also that will mean that VM has to provide config files for every single bit of kit that could be released onto the market. Which would involve testing them, which will cost a lot of money.

There are probably a lot more but I can't be bothered

Ken W 17-12-2015 19:13
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 35813321)
A few points here:

Every ISP provides a hub, which is why VM do it

Look how many issues were had with the SH1, tested by VM and it wasn't great. Now imagine the quantities of unknown kit connected to their network, which the customer could have faults with and be blaming VM for issues.

Unknown kit could send ingress and errors onto the network

One of VM selling points is the free service/repairs it offers, that kind of takes that point away

The OP is the only person I've known to complain the hubs are rubbish in modem mode, when every single other person agrees they work fine.

The config files for speeds on the hubs are written by VM. With your own piece of kit what's preventing you from writing your own config file to add to your kit?

And also that will mean that VM has to provide config files for every single bit of kit that could be released onto the market. Which would involve testing them, which will cost a lot of money.

There are probably a lot more but I can't be bothered
The only people that complain about the SH are the ones that are having problems, I had a SH1 for a number of years and after about 3 years it gave problems, VM engineer called the following day and replaced it with a SH2ac at no cost to me which I am very pleased with.

That is good service.

Gobble 18-12-2015 07:08
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMavis (Post 35813309)
Look at it from this angle:
Imagine I refused to sell you a car to tow a caravan and forced you to take a camper van instead. Imagine the camper part of it was absolutely terrible. You would complain, wouldn't you? How about I then told you it has a tow bar and you could always sack off the camper part and just tow a caravan with it? You would think that was completely ridiculous would you not?
On a scale of 1-10 on how fitting an analogy is, you're about 1 and a half lol. You can't use something that means changing physical aspects, when in case of the router, it is not. I mean... how about maybe a washer dryer. You can use it for both, but heck if you don't want to you can use it for drying, you can use a separate drier.

Now that makes a tad more sense, but you see using this analogy, if I'm getting a washer drier (for the same price as a sole washing machine) and works exactly the same as a standard washing machine for this function, then what would my problem be if my sole intention was to use another drier?

I can moan that the drying side of it is not up to standard, sure, if I plan on using it for everything it can do, but as you're not then I'm struggling to understand any of your problem at all.

Quote:
It's exactly the same situation here. VM don't want to support my router, so they only provide a combined unit which is s**te. They acknowledge this and offer me the ability to use it as a modem only, then expect me to not call them on that? It's senseless. If they can't provide a suitable combined unit, just allow me to use a simple modem.
Well, you see I just don't agree with you at all here. Sure, the SH 1 is about as much use as a snooze button on a fire alarm, but the 2 and 2ac perform just fine as a basic router. If you want to do more advanced things, then there's huge market of routers out there for a reason. No single ISP router I've seen has the range of features they do, otherwise there'd be no market for them.

Quote:
The difference is that I can find a suitable modem no problem at all. Small, subtle, efficient and reliable. Four things the SH is not.
Ok, small and subtle is only judged in the eye of the beholder, but how do you efficiency? The SH in modem mode will perform as efficient as the network allows. If you have no network related issues which the Hub has no control over, then I don't know of a single person having any issues at all.

Throughout this thread you've not provided any cases of issues you've had in either router or modem mode. As we're ignoring any of the router sides of this, can you give us any examples of a time you've put your hub into modem mode, used another router and what issues you've come across? Have you even put set it as a modem and tested it, or are you just so naive as to think that as it's not to your standard as a router, as a modem it can't be any better?

Happy to continue to discuss this with you, but not unless you come up with something of substance, I can't even begin to see your point.

horseman 18-12-2015 07:40
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35813097)
It's a link to a document discussing the security specifications of the technology VM use.......
Given you're asking on here I'm not convinced you're quite up for that level of investment in time, money and effort :)
Not wishing to appear to support any attempt to contravene VM's T&C's but while the reasons are obvious to many except those that can't/won't use google/forum searches then it is both intriquing yet exasperating that other DOCIS/HFC ISP's (eg BigPond/BigT in Oz and many in USA) give compatability list for allowable CPE that user can purchase?

Just curious as to how their risk assessment for theft of service etc compares to VM's?
Presumably this amounts to "cost breaks" of volume purchasing, limiting firmware support/models and avoiding costly/potentially intrusive (more frequent) IAS online auditing and expensive punitive enforcement/litigation for rogue devices/users?

BenMcr 18-12-2015 08:59
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I don't think it's just about 'risk of theft'. Cable in the UK comes from a different place than in the US, Australia or even within Europe from both a company and regulatory perspective.

Cable in the UK (barring once small period at the start for Broadband access) has never directly sold kit for either TV or for Broadband Internet - it's always been rented. Because of this VM's network setup is built around the full end to end control of their kit i.e. if it's not their kit you can't use their services.

There is currently no pressing reason for them to change this - and as I said earlier the Hub 3.0 is a Liberty Global bit of kit, so even in other countries across Europe the same access model applies.

pip08456 18-12-2015 09:04
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
There was also no pressing need for ISP's to supply anything other than a modem to access services.

BenMcr 18-12-2015 09:21
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35813399)
There was also no pressing need for ISP's to supply anything other than a modem to access services.
Except that's not true.

The expectation in the UK from at least around 2009 / 2010 is that your ISP would provide kit that would include Wireless.

Just as it's an expectation that TV kit can do HD, and the future expectation is that it'll do 4K.

Even for some customers on cable that joined before then and only had a modem, there was definitely a push for VM to supply them wireless kit for free, rather than they go and buy their own routers because they could always move to a different ISP that was supplying free wireless kit.

So with the expectation of wireless, then why wouldn't VM look to offer the most efficient way of doing that - which is a combined gateway.

Now that they supply that, it is not cost effective to maintain a source of standalone modems for those that do wish to use their own router for whatever reason - which is why modem mode exists.

pip08456 18-12-2015 11:00
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35813401)
Except that's not true.

The expectation in the UK from at least around 2009 / 2010 is that your ISP would provide kit that would include Wireless.

Just as it's an expectation that TV kit can do HD, and the future expectation is that it'll do 4K.

Even for some customers on cable that joined before then and only had a modem, there was definitely a push for VM to supply them wireless kit for free, rather than they go and buy their own routers because they could always move to a different ISP that was supplying free wireless kit.

So with the expectation of wireless, then why wouldn't VM look to offer the most efficient way of doing that - which is a combined gateway.

Now that they supply that, it is not cost effective to maintain a source of standalone modems for those that do wish to use their own router for whatever reason - which is why modem mode exists.
I specifically said ISP's not just VM.

Gobble 18-12-2015 11:08
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35813422)
I specifically said ISP's not just VM.
Well actually you said ISP's had no pressing need to supply anything but a modem. Ben is saying that ISP's were being pressed to supply a modem/router combo, else a potential customer/renewal may seek another supplier that provided such setup?

techguyone 18-12-2015 11:51
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
You need to view it from a business pov

Are the competition doing it? Are We, if not why not. (Customers are fickle)
Streamline support, what's easier /more cost effective - multiple kit or one kit.

Bit of a no-brainer really.

Granted the bit of kit you may end up with may be massively compromised, but the reality is for 99% of Customers, it's just fine, the other .8% stick a router on & shove it in modem mode and are just fine, the other 0.1% like the OP are just pains in the butt, but in the numbers game it's an insignificant amount so of no import.

Mr K 18-12-2015 13:13
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813426)
Granted the bit of kit you may end up with may be massively compromised, but the reality is for 99% of Customers, it's just fine
I don't think the figure is anywhere near 99% - what's the % of customers VM have left to stew on SH1's ? If they've got any sense, or know about Modem mode, they'll use that and their own router - it's the only solution to a crap piece of kit. VM really should have replaced all SH1's as they are not fit for purpose. Even if VM do upgrade the SH, customers now have their own router and things wired up to work that way, so probably won't change from Modem mode ( i know i haven't !)

A lot more are on Modem mode than VM want. I suspect it's delayed/scuppered their plans to turn them all into public Wifi hotpots, but it's of their own doing.

techguyone 18-12-2015 13:27
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Very true, maybe the shub 4,5 or 6 will be the one. (i'm still on a shub1) in modem mode of course.

BenMcr 18-12-2015 13:32
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 35813435)
VM really should have replaced all SH1's as they are not fit for purpose
Existing customers going up to VIVID 150 or VIVID 200 as part of the Speed Upgrades with a SuperHub 1 get a swap out to SuperHub 2AC.

Existing customers going to VIVID 70 stay on the SH1 as it does do ok for that level of service.

Mr K 18-12-2015 14:00
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35813439)
Existing customers going to VIVID 70 stay on the SH1 as it does do ok for that level of service.
As long as they don't do anything stupid like try and use it as a router ;)

pip08456 18-12-2015 15:31
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813423)
Well actually you said ISP's had no pressing need to supply anything but a modem. Ben is saying that ISP's were being pressed to supply a modem/router combo, else a potential customer/renewal may seek another supplier that provided such setup?
That statement proves my point.

If ISP's only supplied the necessary equipment (modem) as required by their T's&C's then they would not be in the position of the "all in one" solution and the problems that follow.

If anything it has caused a bigger support problem and customer frustration.

Gobble 18-12-2015 16:16
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35813469)
That statement proves my point.

If ISP's only supplied the necessary equipment (modem) as required by their T's&C's then they would not be in the position of the "all in one" solution and the problems that follow.

If anything it has caused a bigger support problem and customer frustration.
Well if every company thought like that, we're would the evolution of technology come from? If it's not broke don't fix it method won't make for a large budget at the Xmas party will it?

The facts are technology isn't going to stand still because it works, it's always going to drive forward. Are you still running Windows 3.11?

pip08456 18-12-2015 16:27
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
It has nothing to do with technology. It has everything to do with what service providers are there for.

Provide a service.

techguyone 18-12-2015 16:28
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
It's not tech driven, it's company vs company & Customer perception driven.


It's not like Routers didn't exist before is it.

pip08456 18-12-2015 16:29
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813482)
It's not tech driven, it's company vs company & Customer perception driven.


It's not like Routers didn't exist before is it.

Exactly.

Gobble 18-12-2015 16:42
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
If it's nothing to do with technology, then why bring out new revisions of routers at all? Whether driving the technology forward is by customer demand or to be better than the competition, it's still technology.

techguyone 18-12-2015 16:58
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Are you Captain Pedantic for CF or something?

Give it a rest eh.

Gobble 18-12-2015 17:25
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Oooh, I dunno... With great power comes great responsibility and all that. Maybe I just don't agree with everyone all the time.

pip08456 18-12-2015 18:42
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813485)
If it's nothing to do with technology, then why bring out new revisions of routers at all? Whether driving the technology forward is by customer demand or to be better than the competition, it's still technology.
OK let's go with your premis.

Company A (insert Lynksys, Belkin etc)produces routers for multi use and continue to develop it.

Company B - VM supply a broadband connection.

Gobble 18-12-2015 19:55
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35813501)
OK let's go with your premis.

Company A (insert Lynksys, Belkin etc)produces routers for multi use and continue to develop it.
Ok, here we go again with the crazy comparisons! Yes, because they aren't renting you use of their product, they are in the business to sell you their product and therefore try and market you something better than the average ISP's router. It's been a long time since they were selling a product the mass needed

Quote:
Company B - VM supply a broadband connection.
*sighhhh*

ISP A - Supplies a modem, says it's providing the 'service' it is desired to do. Leaves you to think about your home network.

ISP B - Supplies a device that provides both the modem and something that also happens to be a device that to your average user gives them all the tools they need for their home network, but... Also allows you to use this device to plug in your own router for those that like to do things their own way.

What's the majority going to go for?

I can't believe you think ISP's for home broadband just try to sell you the WAN side of your connection, when they spend so much marketing trying to sell the whole package.. Why did the 2ac come along when the hub 2 had resolved the poor wifi the hub 1 suffered with? Technology moved along and people had devices they wanted to utilise it with and VM's biggest rival just so happened to have an AC router. Would the the majority care about this? No, I guess the company thinks about the future of technology because they don't want to be left behind the curve, or want to be before it. I won't postulate though ;)

nialli 18-12-2015 22:26
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35813439)
Existing customers going up to VIVID 150 or VIVID 200 as part of the Speed Upgrades with a SuperHub 1 get a swap out to SuperHub 2AC.

Existing customers going to VIVID 70 stay on the SH1 as it does do ok for that level of service.
I didn't. I asked for one and was given just a SH2. Wifi dropouts too frequent so I plugged in an Apple Time Capsule. Now perfect. Can I bill VM for the Time Capsule?

(Thought not)

pip08456 19-12-2015 03:11
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813506)
Ok, here we go again with the crazy comparisons! Yes, because they aren't renting you use of their product, they are in the business to sell you their product and therefore try and market you something better than the average ISP's router. It's been a long time since they were selling a product the mass needed



*sighhhh*

ISP A - Supplies a modem, says it's providing the 'service' it is desired to do. Leaves you to think about your home network.

ISP B - Supplies a device that provides both the modem and something that also happens to be a device that to your average user gives them all the tools they need for their home network, but... Also allows you to use this device to plug in your own router for those that like to do things their own way.

What's the majority going to go for?

I can't believe you think ISP's for home broadband just try to sell you the WAN side of your connection, when they spend so much marketing trying to sell the whole package.. Why did the 2ac come along when the hub 2 had resolved the poor wifi the hub 1 suffered with? Technology moved along and people had devices they wanted to utilise it with and VM's biggest rival just so happened to have an AC router. Would the the majority care about this? No, I guess the company thinks about the future of technology because they don't want to be left behind the curve, or want to be before it. I won't postulate though ;)
I can see I'm going to have to be pedantic here as you have appear to have a problem understanding me.

OK I was wrong when I said "Company B" was VM but in relation to my previous posts I would've thought you would put any ISP in there and not take it as VM alone.

Hey-Ho.

Compare this to what you've said above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobble (Post 35813485)
If it's nothing to do with technology, then why bring out new revisions of routers at all? Whether driving the technology forward is by customer demand or to be better than the competition, it's still technology.
Who do you think it is that develops the technology? VM?????

The likes of VM etc take a perfectly good product, rebrand it, lock it down with their own dubious firmware and foist it off onto gullable customers as the next best thing to sliced bread and you are a typical sucker for the hype.

No disrespect intended.

Your argument is based on business devlopment not the advance of technology.

vm_tech 19-12-2015 09:03
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I can't see how using the company a company b comparison can be called crazy by the person who used the camper van/caravan comparison?

Basically the majority of VM customers want something that can be installed and connected to in the simplest quickest way. Vm want the supply that in the cheapest way possible, but still workable. (Discount the sh1). The sh2 onwards satisfy the vast majority of their customers needs. For the say 5% at a push it doesn't, they offer modem mode. Its a simple solution to a simple problem. You are complicating it. The solution to your problem is modem mode with your own router on.

techguyone 19-12-2015 09:36
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I'm starting to think that the OP seems to be one of those who wants the moon on a stick and will complain endlessly until they get it (good luck this time)

And 'Gobble' just wants to argue with... well everyone it would seem...

Merry Christmas!

arcimedes 19-12-2015 10:32
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813548)
I'm starting to think that the OP seems to be one of those who wants the moon on a stick and will complain endlessly until they get it (good luck this time)
And will then complain its too big to fit in house. :D

qasdfdsaq 19-12-2015 17:49
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
tl;dr.

Ignitionnet 19-12-2015 22:07
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/12/4.jpg

Gavin78 19-12-2015 23:37
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
You sure you don't want to program your own modem for sinister means? seems you are paranoid you are being watched/monitored for some reason.

Bedford 20-12-2015 12:07
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Hello
First Posting:
My uncle has received a Secondhand dirty VMDG 480 Superhub for a new contract. He left Virgin last year 2014.
I have telephone virgin and a lady said they send out refurbished hubs.
Is this normal practice, if so will try a fibre system?

I was expecting the Virgin Superhub 485 and we had VoIP issues with the old 480

Anyone else being supplied with old dirty equipment which is out of date?

Martin

Ignitionnet 20-12-2015 12:13
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
It's normal practice across the board to send our refurbished hardware.

Of course that it's dirty does question how 'refurbished' it is.

horseman 20-12-2015 13:12
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35813684)
It's normal practice across the board to send our refurbished hardware.

Of course that it's dirty does question how 'refurbished' it is.
I naively thought VMDG480 being EOL had not been included in refurb program for at least the last year+? Interesting to know how long the VMDG485 refurb programme has been available let alone whether the 18month old VMDG490 is included yet?

Can't believe the latest VMDG505 is included as we're still awaiting for final GA firmware anyway!

BenMcr 20-12-2015 13:24
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bedford (Post 35813682)
Hello
First Posting:
My uncle has received a Secondhand dirty VMDG 480 Superhub for a new contract. He left Virgin last year 2014.
I have telephone virgin and a lady said they send out refurbished hubs.
Is this normal practice, if so will try a fibre system?

I was expecting the Virgin Superhub 485 and we had VoIP issues with the old 480

Anyone else being supplied with old dirty equipment which is out of date?

Martin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35813684)
It's normal practice across the board to send our refurbished hardware.

Of course that it's dirty does question how 'refurbished' it is.
That shouldn't have happened for a new connection. Most new customers should have been sent the VMDG490 i.e SuperHub 2ac. the SuperHub 1 / VMDG480 should only end up being used as a like for like fault replacement for someone that already has a SH1.

Although at some point I'm assuming that all customers will end up getting the Hub 3.0 as it'll be officially launched as the standard kit across all LG group companies.

Ignitionnet 20-12-2015 14:07
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by horseman (Post 35813694)
Can't believe the latest VMDG505 is included as we're still awaiting for final GA firmware anyway!
Neither of us expected them to ship beta / FCS firmware for production units, both of us should've known better.

More ridiculous is that there was no urgent need to send them out until January/February 2016.

I must admit the state of the equipment gives a healthy dose of karma to those who have no issues with their current hardware but think they are always entitled to the latest and greatest so phone customer relations demanding the Touchstone. Happy beta testing, kiddies.

---------- Post added at 15:07 ---------- Previous post was at 15:04 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35813695)
Although at some point I'm assuming that all customers will end up getting the Hub 3.0 as it'll be officially launched as the standard kit across all LG group companies.
I imagine so, with a higher specification device for those subscribed to more expensive, highest end tiers when DOCSIS 3.1 is released. Oh, and those who phone customer relations demanding one even though they're subscribed to the lowest tier and getting big 'loyalty' discounts on that of course :)

cjmillsnun 20-12-2015 19:43
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by techguyone (Post 35813222)
Sure I did, the whole OP's beef is that he hates the Shub (understandably, I hate mine too) and wants a solution that involves one box, so I'll say it again for the benefit of THICK people. OP doesn't want TWO boxes.
That's not what he said. He wants a MODEM to plug his own setup (which is a home network) into. IE plug a modem into a router.

techguyone 20-12-2015 20:13
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
Wheeeeeeeeeeeee and round we go again, we've moved on from that now. That was almost 4 days ago (do try to keep up)

markharding557 02-01-2016 22:33
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
I think the OP is being a bit stubborn regarding the performance of a super hub in modem ode.
They work fine and from personal experience I can vouch even a SB1 performs well as an Ethernet cable router.My set up was SB1 in router mode, wifi disabled with a TV, Xbox and a second router for wifi connected via Ethernet.
This worked without any issues.

General Maximus 03-01-2016 07:34
Re: ANYTHING other than SH
 
why oh why would you use a shub1 in router mode when you can put it in modem mode and use your second router?


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