Multiple shootings in California
 

There appears to be a major incident in which, according to CNN, 3 separate shooters are involved and there are multiple victims. There's speculation of a terrorist attack but that's probably premature.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34987697

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Has anyone said what the shooters look like?

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I'm sure they're just regular patriotic Americans, keen to exercise their constitutional rights.

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Statistically that's by far the most likely eventuality. :(

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and to ensure the "domestic tranquility of our beloved nation" :)

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People are likely dying there - let's save the snark until we have more facts, eh?

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12 confirmed dead, 20 is the given number total including injuries. Schools in San Bernardino city placed on lockdown.

This is an active shooter and is ongoing.

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Terrible, terrible news.

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NOT Confirmed

^ In case of a sudden debate or witch hunt before facts become clearer

Source: Police Scanner, see how the three have suddenly changed. Unless there's multiple shooters.

Appear to be going with Multiple shooters, fled in an SUV, police checking the area for IED's. No accurate description as of yet.

Upwards of 14 dead and upwards of 14 injured :(

FBI Can't comment on whether this is or isn't a terrorist incident. What defines a terrorist incident? Isn't this exactly that? Regardless of race.

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------

Multiple suspects confirmed, armed with long guns (Rifles etc) now currently suspected to be on the run, major outlets like Schools, public buildings/Government buildings are in lockdown.

Plenty of sightings on the police scanner but nothing concrete. Police are working on the basis of 3 shooters at the minute.

Live streams from choppers have Police pretty much stopping every SUV in sight.

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

As is usually the case in situations such as these, the 'facts' will probably change a good number of times before everything becomes clear. That's why I wrote that the speculation regarding terrorism is probably premature, albeit understandable given what happened in France a few weeks ago.

I think we all need to spare a thought for the victims and their loved ones.

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Yeah I think the better term is Domestic Terrorism, it's clear this was highly organised and carried out with high-powered weapons with an escape already planned out with it. From the heli's it looks like AR-15's yet again. Assault rifle's you can legally own, absolute madness, 14 people have lost their life so far to an absolutely ridiculous law allowing average joe's to own military grade weapons!

- Update: Bear ARV's placed at vulnerable points throughout the area for precautionary reasons. Next official police update will be on the hour unless something significant happens.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:10 ----------

Pursuit in progress, SUV apparently located and police are in pursuit. Could have the wrong guy and he has other reasons for running.

- Source once again is the police radio feed.

- Edit: Shots fired from SUV. One arrested (Not sure if related). Shots still being fired from the SUV.

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:06 ----------

Bearcat SWAT vehicle just joined the pursuit, it appears this might be the suspects.

- Stand off in progress, multiple swat units and police officers in a stand off with the now stopped SUV

- Wow. the SUV is riddled with bullets, 2 suspects down (1 definitely down just laying in the street), one left (unclear where yet)
Swat approaching vehicle now. Second suspect reportedly down in the vehicle with Assault rifle on his person, Police are taking no chances with the SUV whether it's empty or not. Pipe bomb threat reported at separate address. SWAT ready to clear SUV with equipment.

- Thankfully there's no more Civilian deaths, wounded up to 17.

- Houses near 'Pipe Bomb' evacuated (Not sure if related to active shootings)

- 2nd suspect (presumably dead) pulled from SUV.

- 25-30 police vehicles on site, think that confirms this is the shooters from earlier.

- Police confirm 2 suspects down, one possibly outstanding. The officer down isn't life threatening.

- Swat surrounding houses in pursuit of possible third suspect. Hopefully this is the start of the end of this horrible incident.

It was a targeted attack at a Social services centre, despicable attack, disgusting human being, I hope they at least get one to get him a slow death penalty.

- Just seen a graphic shot from the chopper that shows the deceased suspect, it was speculated that at least one is female, the reporter is speculating both deceased suspects are female, the image I just saw from the chopper appears to show this too.

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Suspects were 1 male, 1 female.

Assuming these two were involved I can see a few assumptions being made on motives purely by their names.

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Can't really make a comment on what's happened yet. It could swing both ways but it's more likely a personal matter turned domestic terrorism. Suspect was at the venue and left only to return with the female suspect and open fire. Sounds like a gripe until you bring in IEDs, Assault rifles, handguns and tactical equipment. I think that's why the FBI haven't ruled it either way due to the nature of the pair having all this gear ready and waiting. Again could just be something that's built up for while and been pre planned. I'd probably swing more toward a domestic attack for now though.

Either way. The availability of an Assault rifle and military grade equipment in the US is a joke. Land of the free etc. Pointless trying to reason.

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From what I've seen so far it does seem to be a personal thing primarily but other tensions, resentments or sensitivities (including religious ones) could easily have played a part I suppose.

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What assumptions exactly? Look how many murders happen a year in the USA and look at the names of those who commit them. You're going to be busy making your "assumptions" for a while.

Let's just hear the facts before people start injecting their poison!

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What time is the NRA press conference???

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I wonder if the Republican politicians who said last weeks Planned Parenthood shootings were due to mental health issues will follow the same line with this one...

On a related note, the Guardian provides some statistics about the 994 mass shootings in 1004 days (up to October 1st 2015) - http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/n...a-gun-violence

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

'Your assumptions'

At what point did he make any. In fact given what I've already seen thus far in relation to this. Exactly this has happened. If anything he made the assumption other people would implicate them as Islamic terrorists, which has quickly happened.

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

Seeing as the wife was involved, makes it a lot less likely to be a personal vendetta or "going postal".

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There's plenty of unanswered questions that suggest it was more than an employee gripe etc. At the same time unanswered being the key word.

Their relatives were awfully quick to come out and say they were devout Muslims though. I'd love to know what possessed them to dive straight into that. So far that's been enough to warrant the usual Islamic hate from places.

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Why?

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Why would the wife get involved with a personal work vendetta?

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Why wouldn't she?

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Sandy Hook Senator Just Summed Up the Reality of Sending "Thoughts and Prayers"

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Bombs and bomb-making equipment plus a lot of ammunition fund at their home.

Not looking like "just a couple going postal" any more.

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Was already known they had explosives, unsure what actually happened to the majority of the 'pipe bombs' as they were quoted to have on their person. Reports of explosions but nothing concrete.

- The third suspect was unrelated, wrong place at the wrong time.

The actual facts thus far then:

-Evidence found at the scene being taken to Washington for analysis -States they do not know the motive at this time. -FBI says when you look at the pre-planning that went into this, there was definitely a motive. -Won't confirm any communications with domestic or foreign terrorists. -Confirms male suspect made foreign trips and came back with his wife in 2014. -Confirms he went to Pakistan at some point, unwilling to confirm he went to Saudi Arabia. -States there was some level of sophistication to the IED -Won't confirm that law enforcement found an Al-Qaeda Inspire magazine at the scene.

Now it is starting to swing the way of terrorism given the planning, explosives and ammunition ranging in the thousands. Again though I'd wait for the motive/reason before we get to a conclusion. Although it seems likely the target was chosen because he knew it well, the fact is 14 people needlessly lost their lives. So forget about Islamic Terrorism and forget about domestic terrorism, these 4 firearms were legally owned, the assault rifles weren't even purchased by him, it gets even more silly then.

So the more disturbing matter is whether you're ISIS or Islamic terrorists, madmen or just both then you needn't take your AK to the US, they'll supply you with an assault rifle.. If you're a madman then you can just up and buy one anyway.

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Horrible stats. The NRA are a joke, trying to justify needing an assault rifle for whatever reason, just no.

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Do you mean like this guy or this guy?

btw, only in America can they say something like this with a straight face... "only"!!

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Yeah the 'only' thing is pretty ridiculous but the second point being there's only been 8 mass shootings with more than one shooter... what about the rest with lone gunmen. :rolleyes:

Hopeless.

---------- Post added at 21:52 ---------- Previous post was at 21:48 ----------

Seems Farook was on the FBI list and under investigation.

Theories thus far have him showing up at the shooting location, returning home to pick up the equipment and rental vehicle, carrying out the attack but also returning home again to pick up further equipment and carry out another attack. He didn't expect to be fingered as a suspect as early as he was and Police tried to approach the SUV at his house upon which the pursuit started.

Again, theory. Plausible though given the amount of ammo and bombs he had stored. Also suggests the police response prevented an even worse scenario.

It's just a shame neither will stand trial and face the long death penalty.

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My thoughts are that the couple were planning to carry out a jihadi type attack but got 'wound up' by their colleagues at the meal and decided to go postal on them instead.

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That sounds quite plausible to me. Sounds like something unexpected happened that day to spark things off. I guess it's quite possible that whatever else they were planning could have been far worse too...

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Claims the female pledged her allegiance to ISIS via a social media account. Still waiting for all of this to reveal something concrete and end this.

Anyway, I watched something earlier that was truly remarkable and I actually still can't believe it happened. The Police are apparently done with the house and apparently released it back to the landlord. Not a word of a lie, he instantly called on all major news outlets to rush the house and caused a media frenzy, they literally bulldozed the front door down to make their way in, easily 10+ and cameramen all rummaging through the house, wardrobes, tipping items all over the place.

:confused: I have never seen something so unprofessional or downright stupid. I seriously hope the Police were actually done because a potential crime scene was just trashed. Absolute mad reporters, no respect and downright ignorant. The absolute dire state of the media worldwide mind you, not just there is on full show.

https://i.imgur.com/9DjgldP.png
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CVZiuPiWwAUUKi-.jpg

Images taken from news sources showing personal ID's

Absolute farce, most of the news outlets involved have now admitted to paying the Landlord upwards of $1000 for entry. Now they've figured out what they've done was seriously wrong and are all backtracking.

Update: Landlord escorted away by unmarked police officer.

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I despair with my US Facebook friends how think more guns will solve the problem, I agree with what Russell Howard has been saying, but I cannot say it here :(

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That does sound particularly idiotic but there's always a media feeding frenzy.

As regards the ISIS thing, even if it's true I wouldn't give it too much credibility at this stage. It could just have been a last minute attempt to claim some justification for what was to come. If it turns out these people had been planning something for ages and the event on the day wasn't initially part of the plan, then the ISIS thing would be more credible IMHO.

Having said that:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35006404

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

For some reason, the female is supposed to have posted her support for ISIS on a different account (not the one in her real name).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35006404

I wonder how she removed it, what with being dead and all...

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

Looking awfully similar to the Boston Marathon bombing now, no direct relation to ISIS at all but carrying out an attack in their name. Similar to the way the Boston bombers had no direct relation to Islamic extremists but did it using that as their mantle.

If that's wrong and they were in fact 'recruited' then it's sending a very dangerous message around the US. Assault rifles ready made for action, handguns galore, enough equipment to make home made bombs. America have created a terrorists paradise.

Regardless of the two scenarios, I still can't see what possesses a pair of individuals that were supposed normal every day working people to just commit an atrocity like this. They've ruined 14 families, scarred 17 others, they've brought fear to their own family and friends who will now carry this around with them.

Is there anything better than despicable, disgusting and cowardly? Takes a right pair of hard nuts to gun down people that can't fight back.

---------- Post added at 20:19 ---------- Previous post was at 20:10 ----------

It's incredible isn't it? I have people that say the exact same thing. I've seen respected media men also make ludicrous claims that arming every citizen in the US would wipe out crime rates :confused::erm:

Absolute madmen, what an absolute mess of a country.

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

How we should stop drunk driving - make everyone drink more and drive...

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The argument was only 2 weeks beforehand. So in that 2 weeks they "built up a head of steam", made plans, got guns and lots of ammo, and made bombs? He had stopped going to the Mosque 3 weeks before, so a week or so before the argument he was showing signs.

While increased gun ownership wouldn't solve anything, restricting or banning won't work, as it will just concentrate gun ownership in the wrong hands. You can't uninvent them.

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No, but you can regulate them, as stated in the 2nd amendment.

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But if they did that what would all the empty trauma centres do?

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There has to be options somewhere, it's already been said that it's far too late to disarm the nation, the amount of firearms available would make outlawing them pointless, there'd still be hundreds of thousands in circulation easily.

Just to shed some light on what is readily available to the average joe in the US and let us all take a step back to consider this for a moment.

2x .223 Remington AR-15 variants. A military styled assault rifle which is legal, Typically a 30rd STANAG magazine. They can be used with a drum magazine that holds up to 100 rounds. An AR-15 is basically a continued spinoff of the widely used m16 assault rifle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_...chool_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Aurora_shooting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_County_massacre

Naturally there's more with different or the same Assault rifles. This is why I haven't bother mentioning handguns. You want to be starting with the most lethal of their arsenal. No civilian should be allowed to legally own an assault rifle. Bullets kill regardless of their size and what they come out of. But allowing people to arm themselves with .223 rounds is absolutely mad. Weapons of absolute accuracy and maximum damage.

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The numbers involved are quite staggering for a non war zone:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-34996604

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

Now imagine if for some reason a civil war broke out. The loss of life would be far greater than that of an already war torn country quite easily. They've already lost far more people to guns in the US than they have on their crusade in Iraq.

You see that first tan colored rifle. That again is a military grade state of the art Assault Rifle that comes in so many different variations for all purposes. It's a Remington ACR (Military) or a Bushmaster ACR (Civilian)
It's even been adapted into a sub machine gun a 'Personal defence weapon' (Bushmaster PDW) Not even joking. The ACR PDW has next to no recoil and in cases can be incredibly silent even without a suppressor, making it one of the more dangerous guns to ever appeal to a normal person.

A very good stat from your article there:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/12/17.png

They're worried about terrorism?

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You can hope this is a turning point:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-35013443

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

Here's hoping.

The American psyche won't allow banning of guns, but even if there was some more regulation (no semi-automatics, no extra-large magazines, tracking of personal sales, basic training and insurance required), that would surely help.

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New York Times may have made a editorial but it is a left-leaning paper and will be viewed with suspicion amongst those that need to be convinced. If Fox News came out for it then we might be seeing the beginning of a change but I would assume the NYT would have always been for stricter gun control.

I am wondering though when these actions stop becoming the actions of a madman and come into the definition of terrorism? As far as I currently know these people claim to have been 'inspired' by ISIS but aside from that there, yet, appears to be no evidence of contact with any other ISIS-inspired group or history of islamic radicalism. They may claim to be inspired by ISIS but they might as well have said they were inspired by the Catcher in the Rye for all it seems to have actually done?

Anyway maybe the alleged terror link will be a turning point because if these people were ever on a watch list or under suspicion then the fact they could legally buy guys might finally cede some concessions from Republicans. Even they will struggle to reconcile the notion of freedom with the right for terrorists to bear arms.

That said this is a country which in the aftermath of the murder of 20 children under the age of 10 still decided not to do anything.

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There are rules in place and even a complete ban wouldn't have stopped them getting hold of guns. Which shops sell pipe bombs which they had?

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Perhaps if civilians weren't allowed to buy AR style rifles, and stockpile thousands of rounds of ammo (by tracking sales of weapons and ammo), it may have mitigated the situation.

btw, 'rules in place' - the NRA got their puppets in Congress to vote down stopping people on the terrorist no-fly list being allowed to buy guns. They need stronger, more effective rules in place, with mandatory training and insurance - they have it for driving, why not for gun-owning.

btw2, you are utilising the NRA play-book when you mention 'a complete ban', when I said this wasn't going to happen...

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

They still could have bought them from somewhere. There already large numbers of those weapons out there. They had a large amount of handgun ammo, so banning rifles wouldn't solve everything.

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So if you can't fix everything, you shouldn't fix anything?

Why can't gun owners be subject to the same rules as car owners?

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

How would it make a difference? Guns are banned in this country, but gun crime still exists even though we didn't have much of a gun culture before the ban.

Restricting ownership would need to be on a clear cut set of rules. Otherwise decisions would be continually challenged. That is why gun ownership in this country was based upon the principle of allowing it, unless there was a clear identified reason not to allow it.

A lot of attacks are "out of the blue", so there tends not to have been a clear reason for banning gun ownership. Also the attacker may not be the owner of the guns used, it might be the parent. In one case the attacker used the parents guns with which they had been trained to use, so training doesn't exactly help.

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Not nothing. I'm sure that there were "thoughts and prayers"...

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in one case...

Out of over a thousand in three years.

Bringing in drink driving laws reduced drink driving, bringing in seat belt laws reduced deaths and injuries caused without seat belts, smoking restriction have reduced the number of people affected by smoking related sicknesses, but somehow bringing in gun control laws won't reduce gun crime. Just because drink-driving laws, and the punishments attached, haven't completely eradicated drink driving, should we abolish those laws?

Re gun control laws, Australia's example proves they can make a positive difference..

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

The much maligned Piers Morgan has some good points:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/p...debate-6945202

Apparently, in the US, you cannot buy a Kinder Egg as it is too dangerous but you can, however, buy an assault rifle ..

https://twitter.com/piersmorgan/stat...00912586424321

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As for Donald Trumps input saying that if we all carried guns and somebody came into our building we could shoot them first... What if Mr Trump somebody actually in the building (not an outside perpetrator) for instance was to go off the rails and started killing people.... Trump you twit.

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Nail and head, this is the point we've all made. Time after time we keep hearing about these shooters just being a normal neighbor that was quite pleasant and so forth.

As put, it can be absolutely anyone that for whatever reason decides to go postal.

We're all debating here but we're all right on the same thing. There really isn't an easy solution. There has to be a way to make some form of progress agreed but as already said, there is far too many firearms in circulation to make an instant impact and that's the result of some pretty questionable governing choices.

I'm glad I live in the UK, I'm glad I can go to sleep at night without having to wonder if someone in my street is going to just go crazy and pull out an Assualt rifle, enough ammo to cover a small skirmish and a handgun just in case and then start shooting up the street. It's not foolproof here at all (See: Derek Bird 2010) but it's a shed load safer.

Re: Multiple shootings in California
 

This piece tells you everything that's wrong with the American gun loving culture.

http://i100.independent.co.uk/articl...ns--ZkuBrNlv9g