Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

http://news.sky.com/story/1595110/sh...-corbyn-letter

Corbyn is a total joke, Because he cannot get the full commitment from his own shadow cabinet to back his decision NOT to go to war against ISIS. He has decided to go to the membership for there assistance

He is a total joke, He selected his shadow cabinet, to back him. They have made there voices heard.

And because they wont support him, he goes to the membership that elected him.

I give him to January, before he has to resign. Him become PM you must be joking

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Pretty much cementing what people already knew. Labour is decimated.

However! Something Damien mentioned in another thread has me worried and no doubt has others wondering, what if Labour persist with the current course until the Tories reach the point they're so unpopular that people actually vote Labour in with the current ideologies :erm:

At the same time, people could just continue to press Tories knowing there's a bigger devil in the wings.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Yeah what a joke he is, fancy asking the members what they think before supporting something as serious as war, it's almost as if he doesn't realise politics is all about telling people what to do rather than asking them what to do, just imagine if bliar had done the same, it might have saved a lot of British families a lot of heartache

---------- Post added at 23:53 ---------- Previous post was at 23:51 ----------

That's not a what if it's a when. Opposition rarely win an election it's more a case of the incumbents losing them.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I see that point, I completely agree, it's just a bit different with Syria overall, I don't think any of us would support boots on the ground in Syria, speaking for myself a bit there though. It's pretty much going to be a Drone/Fighter striking operation with no troops as far as infantry goes. I'd be happy to speak out against man power on the ground. Air strikes and drone strikes are something I can live with though (More about cost than lives lost in that case)

Again though, I don't think there's any doubting your point about Blair sticking us in the deep end. If we're being superheroes and fighting ISIS then fair game, if we have ulterior or bogus motives such as Blair and the whole Iraq nonsense then I'd rather have no part in it.

It's a bit annoying to see Hollande goading us into it though. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-34945224)

Again though, I can support an operation with minimal to no loss of British life. I can't support another Afghanistan/Iraq in which we send troops and inevitably have casualties for what? Democracy in a country that has no interest in it.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

What do you think the RAF can achieve with next to no planes that the United States, Russian and french airforces couldn't do with loads? It's hard enough to fight an ideal on the ground let alone from the air, all air strikes will achieve is to radicalise more Muslims, Dave himself said it can't be done from the air alone and is relying on 70000 moderate Syrians to do the fighting and dying for us, problem is where are they and why haven't they done anything yet? Going to war on more dodgy intelligence and what happens when they don't show up

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6750161.html

Or worse sell their weapons to isis

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ry?id=25539314

The more I see and hear the more I think we should have nothing to do with it and am grateful to corbyn for asking the questions no one else bothered to in their rush to war but to be fair why would politicians wait, precious few have combat experience and it won't be their children coming home in body bags. Wasn't it Einstein who said something like the surest sign of insanity was to repeat the same mistakes over and over without learning anything.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Corbyn has already said he wouldn't back air strikes. His e-mail asking for thoughts is designed to pressure the PLP into backing him but the PLP is not the Parliamentary representatives of Labour members, they represent their constituents.


There usually needs to be a credible opposition party to take advantage though, people thought that in 1992 but didn't trust Kinnock.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Corbyn will undoubtedly let his MP's have a 'free' vote and things will wobble along until the next differing of party opinions (I kept it short and sweet as too many Laboury type supporters have a flouncy turn if you say bad stuff about their party)

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

If Corbyn is a joke I can't wait for the punchline. :D

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

So my cunning plan worked! :)

---------- Post added at 10:09 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

^This ..

The air stike option seems more a political response than a military one. Cameron's problem will come when one of our jets are shot down and the pilots captured by ISIS. Noone is talking about this scenario ..

UK energies are better spent in helping the Kurds and the Iraq army fight ISIS. More importantly, the UK can have more impact on the war by working on UN sanctions for Saudi Arabia and Iran who finance the conflict. They can also go after the **** who are buying the ISIS oil and close these operations down.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

^^

This would be far more effective than lobbing bombs about in Syria and killing yet more innocent civilians.

To say that ISIS in Syria is a threat to the UK is as plausible as the WMD in 45 mins from the last time.

Our own streets would be immeasurably safer if the hate preachers were rounded up and chucked out or imprisoned and the radical mosques and madrassahs in our own towns closed. IMHO.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Spot on. Which is the better ISIS propaganda headline to the gullible and weak minded:

a) Cowardly Christian crusaders kill innocent Muslim women and children
b) ISIS fighters engaged in fierce fighting with Kurd and Iraq forces

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Personally i think ISIS already have fighters here thanks to the ability to cross Europe with absolutely NO checks what so ever. Then they pass through the tunnel along with all the migrants wanting to enter the free bank of the United kingdom, we then fund them with payouts whilst they plan there attacks. I would love some apologist to try and say that could not be happening right now.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

To that extent Hollande and France are reaping some of what they sowed. France has long been a prime driver of EU policy including open borders and it's clear that the warnings that this could happen were ignored in typical EU 'we know better' fashion. Suddenly, now the ramifications of that policy are clear for all to see, it's become a very bad idea. Pity they didn't listen to those who could see the obvious in the first place eh?...

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Here we go ..

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Go where i have said what i wanted to say.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

From today's Times.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1639136.ece

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

We do seem to have got around from Corbyn and bombing Syria to immigration pretty quickly..with refugees being terrorists thrown in for good measure..and they really aren't the topic at the moment.:rolleyes:

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Thank you so much :)

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

My point is you can bomb them all you want but the reality is there already here. Bombs in Syria will not stop the attacks here. Think I will leave this forum well alone as there are far to many straw man posters here who wet them selves if someone posts something they do not agree with. Sad really as it was good here at one time.

re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

l think the problem is with some posters is they like to give it out but they don't like it when someone comes back the other way with a opposite viewpoint.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

What are these "straw man posts"? Let's discuss them ..

BTW, if I had posted what you had, there would be someone coming along to tell me to "get my big boy pants on" so watch out!

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

What's annoying me is that the discussion has become about Corbyn and his decision/so called failures rather that what are we going to be doing about this issue. The fact that the HOC is so split about it seems to have been completely forgotten.

What is so different from the last time we were in a discussion about bombing Syria? Then we were for bombing Assad's forces.Now we are bombing who? Is it Isis or Assad's opponents?

Personally I don't like this..and my husband agrees with me..which is quite significant in this household.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

We're in between a rock and a hard place. Sometimes allies and enemies change in the course of a conflict (my enemy's enemy is my friend and all that...) but, one thing's for certain IMHO, that if we don't deal with these people they will deal with us and our way of life. Doing that isn't going to be easy or simple. It will take years during which there will be mistakes and quite possibly changes in who we see as our 'friends' and 'enemies' but getting rid of ISIL has to be a priority. Sitting back and letting things unfold is not a sensible option. We tried that in the run up to WWII and look what happened. The best option left open to us is only the least worst option.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

And the lessons of 2003? I can see that something has to be done but it seems to me everyone is going off at half cock about it..We really need to be working in unison and at the moment too many countries are bombing too many groups..it's a mess..Joining in just because everyone else is doing so seems like a very poor reason to do it..

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

The lessons of 2003 revolve around cynical lies concerning WMD's and the failure to have any realistic exit strategy so far as I can see. Joining in because everyone is doing so has rarely been the UK's policy - we've tended to be the first ones in alongside the US with the other EU nations dithering. I don't think there's any danger of this situation being a case of that - unlike Hussein's non existent WMD's, ISIL is real and poses a growing threat to us right now both within the UK and without.

I really don't think there are any 'mess' free answers to the situation the world is now in and that may well have been the case 10 years ago even though we didn't realise it. In just the same way that gardeners will never win the war against pests, the best we can do is hope to weaken the likes of ISIL and prevent them, or their successors from doing too much harm. The notion that we can somehow wipe them out and create lasting peace in their place is naïve.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

There is several points that l thinks members have missed.

IF, it is agreed that this country goes to war against ISIL. Corbyn has asked his members for give a decision, he is not prepared to except his team of MPs decisions. He wants party members to give there answers too. What do we have here, a joker who believes that he can take on the Tories and win. What a joker. He is not fit to be Leader.

Secondly, With the many thousands of migrants that have come over here, due to lack of border controls. How many ISILs terrorists have come into THIS country, and are just waiting for the nod.

We have David Cameron saying yes, we will take thousands of migrants here in the UK. How many are ISIL members.

Only the other day, there were 100 migrants landed in Scotland. How many could be ISIL members.

We simply don't know. As they were just allowed in WITHOUT papers.

IF, we go to war against ISIL, And ISIL have already threatened war against ANY country that goes to try and defeat them.

I am not saying that all migrants are terrorists, but l was due to take my family out xmas shopping - they wont go on the tube, or on the bus. This is how scared people are.

We simply don't know - and that's the scary part

I bet countries are now worried about letting migrants in now.

Only recently, an ISIL terrorist claimed he went through several countries WITHOUT being stopped

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Exactly, we simply don't know. None of them could be terrorists!

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Which terrorist was that?

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Congratulations - they've won....

Arthur, 1700+ people were killed last year in road accidents - has it stopped you driving? Over 30 people drown in their bath each year - have you stopped bathing?

Here's a handy hint - if you don't want to be so so scared, stop reading the Mail, Express, or the Sun...

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

We've already taken action against ISIL/ISIS/IS/Daesh/the-group-formerly-known-as-al-Qaeda-in-Iraq.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

They were taken from refugee camps in Lebanon and Iraq as part of the Vulnerable Persons Resettlement Programme, not simply allowed in. They were all vetted. None are men travelling on their own.

They must have lived a very frightened existence when the IRA were doing their thing in Great Britain.

I think you'll find that this is how scared they are. 'People' are getting on with their lives because that's what people do, and is the best way for us commoners to respond to Cystisis.

As Hugh said stop reading the Mail, Express and Sun. The first two are full of xenophobic scaremongery and just thinking about the other is harming my ability to think rationally. If your family are being fed on a diet of that bullcrap it's no wonder they are scared.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Exactly, we are being led by the nose into war based on dodgy intelligence by a spiv in a flash suit with no idea what to do in the aftermath or if things escalate further.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

The disagreements within Labour are certainly escalating.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6753846.html

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

This is a multi faceted issue, with multiple layers of complexity that go well beyond the scope of the thread.

Certainly not helped by an at times disastrous immigration policy, nor by a huge failure of integration. Over successive & different governments. (anytime you get a people that describe themselves by their culture/religion first & Country second you have lost it)

EU's frankly bizarre policy making is also aiding the enemy without to become the enemy within...

Getting back to the topic itself, it's not entirely fair to draw parallels with the 1930's & the Nazi build up. This at least had the benefit of one united & clearly defined 'enemy' & state you could oppose.

Iraq/Syria doesn't have that luxury, it's made up of many factions, whose allegiance probably changes daily, compounded by the fact that even amongst the 'Western forces' we're at odds as to who 'the enemy' is, we should take the lessons learnt from recent history and leave well alone

Air & drone strikes only take us so far...
We never have any real idea what to do after we've rolled in & taken out the military (the easy bit - relatively) we should leave well alone, it's an arabic country - in the middle of other arab countries, perhaps it wouldn't be too much to expect for them to clean House. We wouldn't expect Iran to come in and fix stuff if <Insert Western Country of your choice> started getting uppity.

I don't suppose this will happen as we'll blink first, and we'll end up rolling in as some sort of coalition, thus creating another generation of resentment and so it will continue on and on.

I think on reflection I prefered the Cold War at least we knew who the 'enemy' was, they were there, we were here, and it was scary but known.

The ongoing warm brush conflicts are far worse and seemingly unwinnable unless the West drastically does something new & different on many levels.

Interesting times we live in.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Something Mr Corbyn said in the Andrew Marr show yesterday The MPs may have been selected by the members of the Labour Party, but they were voted in by the electorate, who vastly outnumber the Labour Party members - when will their voices be listened to.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Could the Tories really have wished for a more ineffectual opposition? After seeing off the inept Miliband, they must have thought 'things can only get harder'... Labour were clearly deemed economically inept before the last election, now they're seen to be politically inept as well. I hope there is a split. Labour would do well to get shot of their loony contingent and their policies once and for all. There's plenty of room for sensible middle ground opposition.

You'd have thought they might just have learned a lesson from their utter demise in Scotland but Corbyn seems to have decided to plough on regardless of what the man in the street thinks.

---------- Post added at 10:17 ---------- Previous post was at 09:42 ----------

Having lived through the IRA bombing period like many people here I can confirm that I won't be altering my behaviour due to some unknown terrorist threat or another. I reckon I'm far more likely to get run over whilst my mind is preoccupied with thoughts of gunmen or suicide bombers than be a victim of crazed terrorists. What I will do is be careful just like I am when I use an ATM. I don't shield my PIN because I think everyone else is a threat, I do so because some people are. I lock my front door for the same reason. It's sensible. We don't need to stop doing/using this, that or the other, we just need to be aware, not paranoid. I'd argue that tightening our border controls and screening processes is entirely sensible not because 'all bloody foreigners are lunatics' but because some are. Given that quite a few Brits have shown themselves to have terrorist sympathies I'd happily accept that other countries might want to screen me a bit more carefully than they might previously have done too. I'd expect them to do so and not whine about being picked upon. If I were a genuine refugee who turned up on a border somewhere I'd also expect my prospective hosts to want to screen me for all sorts of reasons. Why wouldn't they do that?

Nothing we can do is going to be a panacea for all our potential terrorist ills but it's still sensible to take more precautions that we currently are. I reckon if we all worried less about being 'offended' and applied proportionate common sense precautions to such matters things would be a whole lot better for everyone.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

The really annoying part to all this is that there no no actual discussion in the media about bombing Syria.It's all about the dissent in the Labour party..

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

There's a couple of good articles in today's Times (behind paywall).

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/u...cle4627546.ece

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/p...cle4625275.ece

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/p...cle4625240.ece

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I don't take the times..as it's owned by News Corp and ultimately Murdoch and I won't pay..;)

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I read this in a Downton Abbey esque voice (well what i think it would sound like :D)

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Interesting article on the Labourlist website.

http://labourlist.org/2015/11/labour...tion-on-syria/ The email was sent out after it had been agreed nothing would happen until the Shadow Cabinet meeting today, and then the results are released an hour before the meeting.

Update - apparently, there will be a free vote for Labour MPs on the issue, and Mr Corbyn has requested a two day debate on the issue, with the vote being taken on Thursday (the day of the Oldham by-election).

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Not really. I'm as common as muck..:)

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Oh look as expected.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34967024

Free vote

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

So according to Mr Corbyn's policy consultation, 75% opposed air strikes on Syria.

Strange how a YouGov poll a week ago gave these figures. Some differing viewpoints reported in the Telegraph

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

THIS WILL CLEAR EVERYTHING UP FOR YOU .

​
A highly restricted briefing document on Syria....


President Assad ( who is bad ) is a nasty guy who got so nasty his people rebelled and the Rebels ( who are good ) started winning ( Hurrah!).

But then some of the rebels turned a bit nasty and are now called Islamic State ( who are definitely bad!) and some continued to support democracy ( who are still good.)

So the Americans ( who are good ) started bombing Islamic State ( who are bad ) and giving arms to the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) so they could fight Assad ( who is still bad ) which was good.

By the way, there is a breakaway state in the north run by the Kurds who want to fight IS ( which is a good thing ) but the Turkish authorities think they are bad, so we have to say they are bad whilst secretly thinking they're good and giving them guns to fight IS (which is good) but that is another matter.

Getting back to Syria.

So President Putin ( who is bad, cos he invaded Crimea and the Ukraine and killed lots of folks including that nice Russian man in London with polonium poisoned sushi ) has decided to back Assad ( who is still bad ) by attacking IS ( who are also bad ) which is sort of a good thing?

But Putin ( still bad ) thinks the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) are also bad, and so he bombs them too, much to the annoyance of the Americans ( who are good ) who are busy backing and arming the rebels ( who are also good).

Now Iran ( who used to be bad, but now they have agreed not to build any nuclear weapons and bomb Israel are now good ) are going to provide ground troops to support Assad ( still bad ) as are the Russians ( bad ) who now have ground troops and aircraft in Syria.

So a Coalition of Assad ( still bad ) Putin ( extra bad ) and the Iranians ( good, but in a bad sort of way ) are going to attack IS ( who are bad ) which is a good thing, but also the Syrian Rebels ( who are good ) which is bad.

Now the British ( obviously good, except that nice Mr Corbyn in the corduroy jacket, who is probably bad ) and the Americans ( also good ) cannot attack Assad ( still bad ) for fear of upsetting Putin ( bad ) and Iran ( good / bad) and now they have to accept that Assad might not be that bad after all compared to IS ( who are super bad).

So Assad ( bad ) is now probably good, being better than IS ( but let’s face it, drinking your own wee is better than IS so no real choice there ) and since Putin and Iran are also fighting IS that may now make them Good. America ( still Good ) will find it hard to arm a group of rebels being attacked by the Russians for fear of upsetting Mr Putin ( now good ) and that nice mad Ayatollah in Iran ( also Good ) and so they may be forced to say that the Rebels are now Bad, or at the very least abandon them to their fate. This will lead most of them to flee to Turkey and on to Europe or join IS ( still the only constantly bad group).

To Sunni Muslims, an attack by Shia Muslims ( Assad and Iran ) backed by Russians will be seen as something of a Holy War, and the ranks of IS will now be seen by the Sunnis as the only Jihadis fighting in the Holy War and hence many Muslims will now see IS as Good ( Doh!.)

Sunni Muslims will also see the lack of action by Britain and America in support of their Sunni rebel brothers as something of a betrayal ( mmm.might have a point.) and hence we will be seen as Bad.

So now we have America ( now bad ) and Britain ( also bad ) providing limited support to Sunni Rebels ( bad ) many of whom are looking to IS ( Good / bad ) for support against Assad ( now good ) who, along with Iran ( also Good) and Putin ( also, now, unbelievably, Good ) are attempting to retake the country Assad used to run before all this started?

So, now you fully understand everything, all your questions are answered!!!!

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I like it.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I don't think it's a great surprise that Diane Abbott's views aren't based in reality.

I don't think it's a great leap to suggest that there's a big element of self-selection in Corbyn's policy consultation.

His new kind of politics appears to be authoritarianism based around him and his inner circle dictating, with him seeking confirmation from elements of the membership when it suits his agenda. This alongside his apparent disdain for the responsibilities of MPs to reflect their constituencies, not just his supporters, lowers my opinion of him yet further.

Not entirely sure what's new about his groupies spitting venom at anyone who disagrees with him, or a union boss threatening MPs who dare to express dissent.

Beyond comedy, deeply into the realms of tragedy. The illiberal views expressed both by Corbyn and, more virulently, his supports sicken me.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Looks like the SNP stance has not gone down well with a lot of Scotish folk, a few comments about opposing the government rather than doing the right thing for the country

http://www.scotsman.com/news/nicola-...ikes-1-3957659

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Why is bombing Syria "the right thing for the country"?


I can't stand Sturgeon, but I think she has a point here:

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

There are at least 4 groups involved in Syria. They are all fighting for their OWN supremacy and dictatorship. How could there be any agreement between them, when they all want the same thing but in different ways and mostly to the detriment of the other groups?

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Some good points made here I think

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/index.php/...r-war-on-syria

I particularly liked point 1 and 7

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

:tu:

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Strangely enough I agree, it's not like there's any shortage of bombs being dropped, and it means another step closer to getting sucked into (yet another) 'war' we can't really win, have no idea what to do at the end of it, and don't even have the benefit of two clearly defined sides.

Why are they not cutting off supplies, fuel, money. Lets face it Daesh are not actually doing anything productive that a state/country does, it has no economy beyond what it's stolen.

If you must bomb something then bomb all the oil producing bits, let any receiving country know that there will be grave sanctions for anyone found to be receiving Deash oil.

See how they like being a state with no food or money.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

For me doing nothing is not an option, even if we may wish it was. The only question is what we do and certainly bombing ISIL supply routes, weapons dumps, oil storage facilities etc. is already being done. Whatever else happens this will continue and likely increase as will targeted attacks on leading members of the group.

This is a battle we must fight but isn't one we can win in the traditional sense because the warped ideology which underpins ISIL doesn't require vast manpower, military/financial resources to spread. The genie is out of the bottle and isn't going back in but I think we must do much more to reduce the spread of ISIL's evil message and its widespread targeting of impressionable young people via social media in particular.

Whatever is done won't have the desired result quickly or have an ideal outcome and we need to accept that. This isn't going to be a conventional war, it's going to be a very long term battle of ideologies fought as much in the minds of certain sections of society as in bombed out towns and villages in places like Syria and Libya.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I don't especially care. We're already using airstrikes in Iraq with a limited number of aircraft and this will extend it to Syria. We know that airstrikes from American forces have succeeded in limiting ISIS gains since Summer of last year but at the same time they're probably not going to be that much more use beyond that.

The amount of attention and disagreement that is being generated by this decision seems totally out of proportion to the decision itself. We're not really gearing up for war, we're not really radically changing our approach to the conflict and we're not committing too many more resources.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

ISIS is an idea, an ideology born out of hard Islam and you don't stop that by killing the followers. Have we learned nothing since the Romans persecuted the followers of Christianity?

It was mentioned on the Today programme this morning on R4 that the reason the USA are only doing 7 missions a day is that they have no targets so us joining in is symbolic at best.

If we really want to be safer on our streets then the ISIS 5th columnists and their sympathisers in our midst must be watched and arrested if needs be. At least funding for extra spooks is now forthcoming.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Well heaven forbid if we lose any planes or pilots if we do go ahead..I wonder how long the resolve will last after that...

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I agree. Dave is crossing his fingers here. If ISIS parade a captured British pilot then things will get awkward for him especially if the public see no apparant benefits from extending the bombing to Syria.

He is not presenting a holistic approach to this ISIS issue: he should be detailing to the House a complete plan, one that involves economic sanctions on countries funding these groups, actions taken against individuals and companies handling the ISIS oil, prosecution of the banks who must be laundering the ISIS funds, deploying NATO troops to help Turkey close down the ISIS supply lines in and out of it's territory, what/who will be installed after ISIS is pushed back from its current territory, etc.

Only when the bombing can be shown to have a rational place in a coherent strategy would it make sense and so far, I see no such thing presented to the public or the House ..

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

We lost plenty in Iraq, Afghanistan and before that the Falklands. I can't see this episode going that far however. It was the deaths in Paris served to change France's resolve and strengthen it, hitherto they'd largely kept out of the 'war'. I don't see the deaths of a few pilots changing that any time soon.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

We never lost any that were put in a cage and set on fire and I see 1 pilots death like that changing everything

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I think that would just increase support for taking ISIS on.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Me too. We lost troops who were burned and mutilated in Iraq/Afghanistan, not quite in ISIL production quality but nonetheless true. Soldiers blown to bits, gunned down by supposed 'allies', burned alive in helicopters, personnel carriers and the like. It didn't make any difference. Furthermore we've seen everything nasty ISIL can do to their defenceless victims time and time again, whether it's beheading volunteers, drowning prisoners or mowing down unarmed people in ditches. As sad as it may be, the fate of any captured pilots won't make the slightest difference. In fact it'd probably make more difference to our policy if they were kept alive and used as bargaining chips.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Shot on sight in some cases.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Unless they're attacking Corbyn, in which case I'm sure he'd want the security forces to task them nicely not to and then try to wound them...

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Really, there'd be anger and a desire for revenge but that would soon subside. This country and our allies have already proven twice that we don't have the apatite for a long, attritional war, they'll just melt away and wait us out like in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

This isn't that kind of war though. I just think the country has shown before that actions against Britain or British personnel only increases the appetite for action. ISIS have already killed British citizens which just served to increase the desire for us to go after them, people approved of the killing of the Jihadi John.

The counterpoint to the argument about how this action will be perceived in the aftermath of an attack is what happens if we vote No and ISIS attack London? That will probably be retrospectively judged as a bad move.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

ISIS really aren't going to start targeting the UK and its citizens because we start bombing Syria. They're already targeting the UK and its citizens. There have been numerous attacks planned (and fortunately prevented by our security forces) already and it's only a matter of time before one or maybe several succeed. Be under no illusions that this will continue whatever we do so the notion that we'll be safe if we avoid taking this action is IMHO fatally flawed.

---------- Post added at 10:34 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------

Lot's of noise being made about Cameron's 'terrorist sympathisers' remark with some Labour MP's apparently claiming it will change how they vote. Well as annoyed as they might be, which I can understand, surely no insult should change what I'm sure they'll all want to claim is a vote based on conviction. As much as this is a blunder by the PM, those who publicly change the way they vote because of it will ,IMHO, be making an even bigger one and allowing personal feelings of anger to cloud their judgement.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I'm more concerned about mission creep as we edge ever closer to another boots on the ground scenario. We never have an exit strategy worth ****, which is how this whole mess started to begin with. Unpalatable as it may seem, when we keep toppling over (or encouraging) the dictators to fall, we simply fail to realise that bad as they are, they keep a tight lid on much worse things. We never learn; Yugoslavia the balkans, Iraq, Libya, Syria... As far as adventures in foreign climes go it is a Muslim problem, and should be dealt with by the Muslim neighbours.

Lets see how long it takes before we go from Airstrikes to other more direct forms of warfare.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Given they're inclined towards moral outrage, Corbyn might want to consider the widespread 'bullying' and intimidation his side of the argument appear to be engaged in during what he promised would be a free vote.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...n-labour-ranks

It all sounds very nasty and there was I thinking nastiness was a Tory preserve...

---------- Post added at 11:16 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

I don't see what sort of credible exit strategy we can have in such complicated and uncertain circumstances. :shrug: Even if we had one, the chances are that it'd fairly soon be rendered dubious for one reason or another as the situation changes and ISIS change their tactics. I really do think we're going to have to accept that there's no easy way out of this and what we're already involved in isn't going to end in the sense that a traditional conflict would do with a defined victory.

Incidentally I do think that whatever else happens, we need to be taking out as many of the weapons dumps, supply compounds, oil depots etc. as possible before ISIS decide to start filling them with civilians. We're already fighting with one arm tied behind our backs due to the need to minimise civilian casualties so how much harder would that be if ISIS change their tactics.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Watching the current debates and he still wants diplomatic talks to solve the IS problem. I suggest we should drop him by parachute into the middle of IS territory and let him talk to them :tu:

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Just another example of how completely out of touch he is I'm afraid. ISIS would respect 'diplomatic talks' (if you can have such talks with a disparate organisation like them) with the same level of respect the Japanese usually treated surrendering allied troops.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Err does he want to talk to ISIS or does he want to sort out Assad FIRST.The fact is that ISIS is supported throughout the Middle east by all sorts of groups and these are the people we need to stop supplying arms and money to ISIS.That's the talks we need to be having..

---------- Post added at 14:06 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015...ukhpmg00000001

So I guess I'm one too..

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

By his definition, an awful lot of people are. Shows how ill-judged his remark was. Bad judgement: not what you want from a PM at this moment in time ..

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

It was a utterly dreadful remark and one unbecoming of someone in high office whatever political colour they may be.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Agreed

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

IIRC he didn't call everyone who intends to vote against the air strikes a 'terrorist sympathiser', he implied some of them are terrorist sympathisers, based on their previous comments I believe. It wasn't the first time he'd done so either:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/british-pub...attack-1523040

and I don't recall the same level of 'outrage' then...

It was still unnecessary, however, and a major distraction from a hugely important issue however, since it would obviously be used as a stick to beat HMG with.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Its going to have to be that kind of war, who else will fight it, Dave's magical 70000 moderates? Corbyn just said

Seems like a fair comment to me

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

How can there be a diplomatic settlement for Syrian settlement when ISIS don't want to take part?

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Assuming Isis a diplomatic settlement was to happen and Isis take part, what do you think Isis would want as thier part of the settlement? For them to be allowed continue doing what they are doing?

Or do you think they will be happy with an area they can border off and have as their state? An within that state they will of course all be happy and never want to harm other country's or states. They wouldn't preach hate,

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Give ISIS an inch and they'll take a million miles. These people aren't looking for a nice little homeland somewhere safe where they can carry on subjugating, abusing, maiming and killing those who dare to disagree with them. They're committed to the destruction of our way of life.

Does anyone really believe that any 'agreement' supposedly reached with whoever's supposed to be in charge of ISIS would endure? I don't.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

After we've beaten them perhaps or it could be to stop the flow of oil and weapons from our allies in the region flowing in and out. Annonymous have achieved more than us turning more of syrian desert to glass will

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/hackers-rep...prozac-1530385

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...d-scott-terban

And someone who has actually been inside a isis thinks we're making a mistake to

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-n...-state-6938997

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

In the same way there can be a free vote on this matter within the Labour party?

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Yup, Dave has put his foot in it. He apparantly didn't imply anything, he called Corbyn and the MP's who might vote No, "terrorist sympathisers":

Senior Tory tries to dampen row over Cameron's terrorist sympathisers 'slur'

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

The "You should not be walking through the lobbies with Jeremy Corbyn and a bunch of terrorist sympathisers" bit, explicitly implies that there are "Jeremy Corbyn and a bunch of terrorist sympathisers"(which cannot really be denied) and the OTHERS(ie NOT terrorist sympathisers) who might be thinking going in that side of the lobbies.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Don't rule out ground war says Billy Hague

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...round-war.html

Who apart from Damien couldn't see that coming, it be laughable if it weren't so serious

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

"forward" he cried from the rear. And the front rank died. :(

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

The decision having now been made I think we all need to think of the personnel tasked with the job and their families. For them there's a whole lot more riding on this than any politician who examined their conscience (or not) and walked through a lobby...

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Indeed. The skies above my house in North Wales are a hell of a lot quieter now. I'm not sure if that's because the weather's terrible or because the usual RAF training runs have been swapped out for the real thing.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

I don't envy the politicians either though, having to actually make the decision must carry a lot more weight than just having an opinion. We can afford to shrug it off if we're wrong.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Well, that didn't take long...

Sky News Ken Livingstone believes in democracy, as along as you agree with him.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Airstrikes are already in place against IS/ISIS/ISIL (Whatever their latest name is) in Iraq, is there any intelligence/proof that shows it has caused a significant dent in their capability? Recent events would suggest not.

So what exactly will airstrikes against Syria achieve? apart from the usual loss of life to innocent civilians

This is an 'organisation' which employ guerilla/terrorist tactics to meet their objectives, an enemy that has clearly demonstrated they hold no fear with regards to their own deaths.

In the sixties the 'greatest nation on the planet' were made to look very silly by the VC/NVA surely people must see some similarities between the two ?

Finally, If (and it's a big if) IS/ISIS/ISIL were to be defeated by this campaign, whats to stop another radical/extremist group stepping in to fill the vacuum and carrying on despicable barbaric acts. Let us not forget it is the coalition that must be held to account for the rise of IS/ISIS/ISIL in the first place, for their complete and utter lack of planning and forethought of GW1/2 etc.

You cannot defeat an ideology with bunker bombs or tomahawk missiles.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

He's always been the same and that's what you get when you put people like him in power. He tries to dress up his views and actions but at the end of the day he's just as extreme as many of those he decries.

---------- Post added at 11:18 ---------- Previous post was at 11:13 ----------

We haven't defeated Nazism either, does that mean that fighting WWII was the wrong thing to do? Where would we be now if we hadn't?

There is no victory (in the conventional sense) to be had here. Those days are long gone. The best we can do is stop them amassing more weapons, money, supplies etc. and try to contain them. Whatever we do we cannot erase their ideology. We're fighting now to achieve the least worst outcome, not a victory, and we're going to be dealing with the resulting terrorism forever more.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

WWII isn't comparable to this you're right in terms of the ideology behind Nazism this conflict as i said is more comparable to the Vietnam war.

The part above which I've bolded is spot on and excellently put and I think the first thing in a while that we've agreed on !!

The problem is the general British public will not see it this way the politicians will try and sell this as an out and out victory which as you've already said isn't achievable.

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Speaking of democracy

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/01...elow-majority/

---------- Post added at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------

Considering isis are now digging tunnels I'd say comparisons to the nva being prepared to wait it out and accept massive casualties in a war of attrition that their enamy isn't prepared to endure don't now end there

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:47 ----------

Isn't that what corbyn was saying, go after the oil sales and arms rather than this tokenist show of solidarity that will achieve nothing

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Just been listening to John Mann on The Daily Politics. He likened much of what's been going on behind the scenes of Corbyn's supposed new warm and friendly politics is straight out of "Militant's"* handbook way back in the 1970's and 80's. Of course some of us recall those nasty hate filled days which is why what's going on now resonates...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milita...otskyist_group)

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

So it would be "democratic" to listen to the 31% who opposed air strikes, against the 48% who supported them?

And if we are going to run the country/our political parties by polling, it doesn't look very good for Mr Corbyn (from the Times article linked to in your link).

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Cameron will wish he never used the phrase 'terrorist sympathisers'

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/12/14.jpg

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Why?

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Why not?

Re: Shadow Cabinet Anger Over Shock Corbyn Letter
 

Mentioning it once or twice is ok but it got absurd. Labour went from looking reasonable to a bunch of people complaining that their feelings were hurt rather than Syria.