Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34907983

It was bound to happen sooner or later. The Russians have apparently been warned about this many times and chose to carry on regardless. It'll be interesting to see how Putin reacts.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

That's if we believe Turkish claims here. Even if they did violate Turkish airspace it seems to be a brief and small incursion. Can't help but think Turkey have overreacted here.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

I don't see what's in it for Turkey to lie about this, especially knowing that the Russians may have incontrovertible proof to the contrary. Mind you things are still confused so I suppose anything's still possible. The Turkish say they warned the pilots and they ignored those warnings.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Russia is claiming the plane was shot down in Syria by ground fire, so they are actively avoiding pointing the finger at Turkey.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

I think we should all agree to this spin and quietly tell Turkey to cool it.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Whatever the truth, maybe Putin's starting to feel that he's already bitten off rather too much to be getting involved in a problem with Turkey/Nato.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

A bit late considering Turkey has been very proudly shouting that they shot this plane down.

This was always going to happen with Turkey a very prominent opponent of Assad and Russia a supporter. That said, until recently they have been strong allies too so this shows what a bit of division of policy can do to diplomatic relations.

Hopefully things wont escalate further, but this needs mediation and some cool heads to get in the middle to stop any retaliation ASAP.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

If that's the way the Russians want to play it then fine. But I suspect it will also be used a pretext to bomb the hell out of Assad's political rivals in that area rather than targetting IS.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

I'm sure there'll be lots of discussions behind the scenes about how to minimise the fallout and any embarrassment from this.

It seems one of the pilots is dead and has been filmed by hostile ground 'troops' celebrating the fact. I wouldn't like to be in the shoes of the other pilot but imagine his fate is sealed.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

The area is inside Syria but is home to ethnic Turks now under Turkish protection. The Turks wanted it to be classed a no-fly zone, but Russia would not cooperate as it would become a haven for anti-Assad fighters.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

The Russians' prime motivation for being in this conflict is to keep Assad in power which means suppressing any ethnic or secular group that might organise themselves against him: Exactly how he's stayed in power to this date.

That means not just IS, but the Syrian Turkmen from the North Western borderlands and are vehemently opposed to Assad. Suppose then for instance that Ankara have become pretty fed up of the Russians making ethnic Turks a legitimate target under the pretense of the fight against IS thus taking the opportunity to down a Russian aircraft near the border knowing full well that the facts will be disputed until the cows come home.

Either way it will be interesting to see how the press spin this one. I doubt that the true facts will be uncovered anytime soon.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Putin being interviewed now and talking about being stabbed in the back and serious consequences for Russia/Turkish relations. Seems they think the jet was shot down by the Turks now as Putin's claiming it was an air to air missile.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Does anyone know what the cut-off age is for Military conscription? Asking for a friend...

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

In which country?

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

The UK although I was (mostly) joking.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

It was 51 during the war. Afterwards the call up was for those aged 17 to 21.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Don't worry, Guardian readers get an automatic exemption on the grounds of highly questionable judgement. :D


;)

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Given Russia aren't going to retaliate against NATO by attacking Turkey directly, even though NATO should have expelled Turkey a while ago, guess who is going to bear the brunt of the retaliation, geniuses?

I doubt chanting 'Allahu Akbar' is going to do much against Russian bombs and rockets.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Has highly questionable judgement stopped them before then? :erm::D

---------- Post added at 15:13 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

The commander of the Turkishmen is incredibly stupid. What if Turkey respond though?

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

If Turkey directly attack Russia, again, Russia can invoke article 51 of the UN Charter, just as France could have when attacked by IS.

Fact is, under the letter of the law, Turkey are the aggressor. Personally I find it astonishing that that nation is within NATO and being considered for the EU, however it can blackmail the EU and has key strategic considerations for NATO.

I strongly suspect Turkey will be told to pack it in. They arbitrarily decided they have a buffer zone 5km into Syria that they claim as their own airspace. They don't have the moral high ground in this one.

Perhaps if the CIA stopped using Turkey to funnel cash and small arms to rebels in Syria that'd help de-escalate things too?

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Shot the pilots as they were parachuting to safety????? Yes well done lads.

To be honest they deserve what's inevitably coming to them. That's no better than the sort of thing IS get up to. You just do not do that.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Several Jobs ago I was in a "Protected occupation":D during the 2nd Gulf War.

---------- Post added at 17:55 ---------- Previous post was at 17:54 ----------

Personally Russia has been calling countries bluff one to many times.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

According to ITN news the Russians also had a rescue helicopter downed in the aftermath.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Still struggling to see any compelling reasons to stay in EU, especially if Turkey get in and join the club too, Cameron & Co must be cringing at the euro timing of destruction given the referendum is around the corner.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

The way things are going, Turkey being a NATO member might turn out to have consequences just as dramatic as them being an EU member.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Turkey caused the end of CENTO by invading Cyprus in 1974 (formed in 1955 by Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Turkey, and the United Kingdom). It was dissolved officially in 1979 by the Iranian revolution.

They only managed to stay within NATO by the skin of their teeth 'cos the US wanted access to Incirlik airfield.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Russia insist they never entered Turkish airspace and gave a completely different flight path and crash site. The turks insist it did fly through Turkish airspace. Either way it's unfavourable for the turks even if it did cross, it worked out as a 17 second excursion if they followed the path the turks claim it did. Doesn't help it was shot down way outside of Turkey either.

The shooting was intentional obviously and I doubt even Turkey are dumb enough to shoot down a jet without it at the very least having strayed into Turkish airspace. It's still an overreaction that the Russian's will be all too happy to milk to their advantage. There's also the case of the co pilot having been killed by people shooting at him whilst parachuting. The Japanese know all too well about that kind of despicable act. I think that'll be the bigger problem for Turkey than just shooting the jet down.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

I assume you mean that's the "bigger" problem? :scratch:

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

I've just checked and the b is right next to the n. so it was a genuine accident :)

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

The Russians are not entirely blameless here. They have been warned on a number of occasions about airspace incursions. The excuse of "navigational error" does not cut it, even in a rickety old crate like an SU24 which still has modern avionics despite the age of the airframe.

Operating that close to the Turkish border, is a recipe for disaster considering primary radar is not entirely accurate.

Let's also not forget the nefarious practice of removing the standard vvs markings from Russian aircraft currently operating in Syria: there is no excuse nor justification for this. That aircraft could have been Syrian or Iranian after visual id for all those Turkish pilots knew not to mention the fact that the Russian pilots did not bother or weren't following the correct RT procedures.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Oh, I don't know, they might have their uses.... Like blocking Russkie ships coming from Crimea.

Putin should think carefully before picking a fight with the Turks as they control access to the Black Sea.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Oh wow. I'm only ever going to use the word Big from now on. I've made typo's but that's a right whopper :dunce:
Thankfully my employment has no relation to typing.

Apologies again all!

Forgot to add. A protocol that doesn't involve trying to get visual contact with the jet is likely to go against Turkey again. The majority of countries and our own in this example tend to follow an 8 step rule involving visual contact, warning shots via tracer rounds and others.

Turkey employed one step and shoot, there's literally no justification for this. Even less so for the touted 17 second incursion.

America needn't have their two cents either. I'm sure we're all aware they trespassed into iranian water's and shot down a civilian airliner that was correctly identified as a civilian plane. After trying step one they blew it up. I'd take anything America says as worthless.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Oh they'll have their uses, the question is whether they outweigh the problems and challenges they create for Nato and the EU. This is all incredibly complex and God only knows where it will end.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

So what if they are syrian, Iranian or anything else, fact is they weren't posing a threat to anyone or anything and shouldn't have been shot down imo

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Except it doesn't happen, it's not Top Gun. Documented cases?

Often the "warning shot" is actually a missle, for example: during Operation Southern Watch Iraqi pilots would often bait a shot from allied aircraft and pull a turn away knowing that they would be able to maneouvre out of range to safety. The pilots of this SU24 acted with a great deal of complacency and suffered the consequences to a degree although this does not excuse the abhorrent actions of the rebels who shot one of the airman as he parachuted to safety.

The Russians themselves take an extremely dim view of airspace violations. Cases in point: the downing of flights KAL 007 and KAL 902 followed by a series of bare faced lies to cover up their own incompetence.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Every single Russian close encounter relatively close to British Airspace in the past few years has been met and resolved using the first two steps, Radio and Visual contact and then escorting said planes away. Turkey decided step one was sufficient for what's touted as 17 seconds of incursion. Do you think the UK would just up and down a Russian jet in it's Airspace without first establishing if there was a threat, definitely not.

There's literally no possible way to justify shooting down and a death of a pilot for 17 seconds of incursion if deemed true. It's even worse given the wreckage is miles into Syria.

The correct response is the response any normal country take to a situation like this, they shadow and escort the plane. We can cite planes being shot down by Americans, Russians or Turks all day but it doesn't make it any more justifiable. We've seen it from the American's and Soviets whom have tried to shrug it off with absolute embarrassment. This wasn't that, this was completely deliberate with absolutely no justifiable reason to shoot it down. Defence? defence from what? It was into Syria before they caught up and inexplicably shot it down without having being attacked.

The Turkish themselves had 2200 airspace violations in 2014 alone. It's relatively impossible to use that argument in their favour.

https://www.rt.com/news/323429-greec...ace-violations

Let's be honest here, I'm no fan of Russia but had this been a UK, US or French jet shot down by Russia/Turkey etc. This would have received world wide criticism from allied countries. It's Russia however so that's off the table.

Better yet, was this jet even downed for a tiny violation or have the Turkish tried to use this to their advantage to send a message to Russia and have some form of excuse to protect them.

I don't think there's any doubt here that Russians at the very least strayed into Turkish airspace. It's the complete farce of a response by Turkey. Even with the shootdowns you've used, the Russian response was more than that of Turkey.

In relation to Korean Airlines and you asking for documented cases, at least half the protocol was followed in your own examples...

It's still an absolute mess with regards to shooting down a 747 that had no weapons to cause any major damage.

Justifiable would be entering deep Turkish Airspace conducting missions or something else relevant. Flying over the tip of Turkey for 17 seconds is something you'd get an ear bashing for given Turkey knew exactly what the Russian SU's were there for and knew without doubt they were never under any threat.

Re: Russian fighter shot down by Turks
 

Syria is an active combat zone (the UK isn't and neither is Greece). The Turks are free to implement whatever rules of engagement they see fit. They will have brought that SU24 down because they fully intended to bring it down. Whether or not there was a political or military motivation behind this incident is wide open for debate.

Have the debate about what's justified and what isn't justified until the cows come home. Let Putin join the debate while he tosses bricks around in his glass house. The person who can actually make sense out of what's happening on the ground today in Syria and what each of the protagonists political goals are is the person who stands the best chance of resolving the conflict.