VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34325005

Oh dear, I don't suppose this will do much to improve Germany's current public mood. It'll be interesting to see whether this does affect any EU cars and how open VW will be about the extent of the problem and any deception.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Naughty, naughty

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

l wonder how many more car companies could be doing the same thing....

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

i was reading about this apparently its hit their share price by around 18% to since the scandal came to light.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I would think they're all at it. Much easier to apply a techno cheat than to actually clean up an intrinsically mucky diesel. Looks like it'll cost VW dear in the states.

Just the same as the totally fictitious MPG figures that most claim. It's all a con as Which demonstrated.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I think the problem there is that many drivers don't understand that the official figures obtained under controlled conditions are only really there to allow comparative judgements to be made and determine such things as VED bands. It's impossible to provide an accurate figure for any car because so much depends on factors which are beyond the manufacturer's control e.g. weight of right foot...

I do think it ought to be made crystal clear to people that what they can realistically hope to achieve in real world conditions will be within a certain lower-upper range depending on individual circumstances, usage patterns, driving styles etc. Having said that, there'd still be those who refuse to read the effing manual just as there'll always be those who buy Renaults... :)

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

No surprise and l wonder how long it is before other car companies admit to their nefariousness as well.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

A lot of poo is about to hit some fans.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

...and a lot of lawyers will be rubbing their hands with glee.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I can understand how it happened though: Pressure to get test emissions down without affecting on-the-road performance, a brainstroming meeting and a bright spark with some "out of the box" thinking. The actual fixes may only have been known about by the development teams rather than the CEO etc.

I've been in those sorts of meetings where we're steering round patented proceedures and designs with devious firmware / software and tricks.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

How will this pan out for customers though? A full refund would seem to be the only acceptable 'fix' given that a retro fit will result in de-tuning and resale value will drop through the floor. Who'd have thought VW would act like a spiv?

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Not too dissimilar to what went on within the banks (and more recently the charitable sector) I imagine - direct and indirect pressure to hit targets with not enough oversight and questions being asked about how the results (e.g. sales/profits) were being obtained. It suited those at the top to be able to distance themselves from anything dubious. Who wanted to ask tough questions and hear bad news when fat bonuses, bloated pay packets and shiny gongs were at risk? I seem to recall an HBOS executive doing just that before the crash and getting sacked for his diligence and honesty...

I wonder how any executives who might be implicated in this will be treated if found guilty of wrongdoing - will they walk away with pay offs and fat pensions or really be called to account? Time will tell.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

If you bring in targets and tests to meet them, then human nature is to design to beat the test. None of this is actually that surprising when you think about it. Is it really much different than the situation in our classrooms up and down the country, where so much time is put into getting the kids to perform well in SATS or showing off the school in the best possible light when Ofsted pays a visit?

The only way around this is rigorous, external, unannounced examination of the kind inadvertently provided by the researchers who uncovered the VW scandal.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Skoda have admitted to over 1 million of their cars are the same.
and Audi over 2 million.

I wonder if all car manufacturers say they did the same will make it better for VW if not all of them. and it will all shift to the consumer in the way of paying more tax on diesels?

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Seat have VW diesel engines in their cars as well, think it is mainly the 1.6 and 2.0 litre ones.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I had the mick taken out of me when my car had a crack in the turbo pipe and it kicked out black smoke, now its my turn to laugh.

Vehicle lines involved include the Audi A1, A3, A4, A5, A6 and the TT, Q3 and Q5 models.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Apparently the "device" was a software feature of the Bosch diesel injection system to aid *internal* dyno/rolling road testing (by stopping the control system from throwing a wobbly when the front wheels are doing 60mph and the rears 0mph). Bosch apparently told VAG it was not for use in regulatory testing.

The big issue is that Bosch supply a hell of a lot of injection control systems to loads of manufacturers. I doubt that this software feature was limited to the VAG applications.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Dunno. Those two are both owned by VW. As are Seat, another one that owned up to issues.

Looks as though it's across the VW family.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/09...issions_tests/

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Considering most VAG cars share a common platform (including engines) I would expect every brand to be affected aside from Bentley and Porsche, due to fewer (if any) diesels.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Going to be interesting to see which fixit path they use: Either greater emissions or less headline power? Or maybe a bit of both.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

IIRC the VW Group has so far avoided using the eolys additive based systems that other makers (Peugeot/Citroen and Ford) have been using since around 2005. I can see new cars being developed to use these systems. Either that or they will be forced to go for AdBlue, which has been used in HGVs for some time. It all depends on how long the development will take.

The big question is what to do with cars already sold. If the tests have effected CO2 emissions, then there's a taxation question, however if its "just" NOx then I doubt the cars will be recalled.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

VW announce that 1.2m UK vehicles are affected.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34399503

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Given the obvious mis-selling scandal, I would imagine any taxation issues would be managed in the form of a levy paid directly by VW. Trying to increase the VED on consumers who have been misled would be a bit pointless and would inevitably end up in court.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

And how is VW going to compensate for the additional pollution their deception has created I wonder? It'll be interesting to see how the US and EU approach to this differs.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

The big difference is that US NOx emissions targets are much tougher than EU ones (hence the lack of diesels in the US), so its possible that they might squeak through the EU tests.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Are EU diesel emission regulations less stringent because the French and Germans make so many of them or are diesels so common here because the regulations are less onerous?

Off topic I know but emissions regulations could be used as, effectively, a trade barrier could they not?

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

The US ones are tougher because they're trying to limit the import of foreign cars and encourage the buying of American cars.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Yes that's what I was getting at - a means to protect their own industry. But is the EU's policy deliberately assisting primarily German and French diesel car makers by setting emissions limits lower than they would otherwise be?

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

How would we know? Is the US too high or the EU too low? Personally given the EU isn't a stranger to Environmental laws whereas America is less keen I would assume the latter has set them too high. In otherwords I assume the EU is more concerned over the Environment than the American congress.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

From what i recall i think you're wrong on this....

IIRC

NO2 permitted emissions in the US are something like 30ppm in the EU it's 80ppm

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Sorry wrong way around. I meant 'Is the US too low or the EU too high?'

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

The US (And especially California) have always suffered much more from smog than the UK/EU, so that's their main issue. Also, the US introduced items like catalytic converters back in the 1970s, 20 or more years before the UK.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Assuming VAG are selling cars with emission figures roughly equivalent to the competition (Renault, Citroen, Honda, Toyota, etc), are these manufacturers hoping the light is not shone in their direction and are as a result keeping very quiet?

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

A guy at work has one on the list, he's fuming :D

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

As will his car be (after the recall) ;)

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Ouch!!!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34650233

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Oh dear.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-34712435

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Now the can of worms on petrol engine's false MPG and emissions claims from all manufacturers is opened. Time for real world testing by an independent body. Getting manufactures to supply test results is an open invitation for lying and cheating.

Which found on recent tests that some vehicles were 40% LESS economical than claimed.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Real world testing would be a good idea but anyone considering buying a car based on 'economy' really ought to spend a few minutes looking on the internet to get a good idea of the sort of figures other drivers, including professional reviewers, are getting. There are so many variables involved in driving that whatever 'real world' figures are published they'll still be just a guide and there'll be those whose individual circumstances mean they'll never achieve them in practice. One thing's for certain - nobody is ever going to match the figures obtained under controlled conditions in their daily lives but some will get much closer than others.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36796829

If I'd been a VW customer I don't think I'd ever be one again.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I think an independent body does need to be setup to test vehicles and it should have the power to ban the sale of a vehicle and fine company's for false or misleading information I think the best way to do it is to have the various company's release their vehicle the testing body goes to a garage purchases the vehicle then test it. That way there are no specially built vehicles or cherry picked one's to manipulate testing and consumer's could actually have faith in what they have bought.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I'm not that bothered ,my VW and all other VW's would give out the same emissions regardless of what the computer says.The only reason most people are up in arms is because there's a chance of free money because most definitely did not buy the car based on the emissions tests .VW new there was not a chance in hell of getting away without financial compensation in the USA, but here there is a chance because the compensation culture isn't as strong .

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I don't know I know a couple of people who took emissions into account last time they bought a car and it was something that swayed their choice and if the information wasn't honest and deserves compensation in the US it deserves it here. I'm not overly bothered myself if people are that bothered by emissions use public transport but if a company is going to do something in one place they can't be too shocked that the public expect it to apply in all areas. If we want honest company's we have to be able to hit them where it hurts.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Being the cynic I am I would say that the only consideration they had for the emissions was for the road tax bracket not the welfare of the planet.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Oh I agree the two I'm thinking of are only environmentally aware as long as it doesn't cost them money or inconvenience them much like the majority really but if a company gives compensation for something in one country not a shocker people in another country expect equal treatment.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38590197

Given that the EU is committed to imposing fines for pollution levels in the likes of London I wonder whether VW (and others possibly) will be called to account for their contribution to it.


It looks like there are now questions being raised about Chrysler-Fiat:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38600012

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Good.

My car goes in for the fix next Friday morning.

When I booked it in the guy on the phone wanted me to have it serviced at the same time at a normal service cost, but I told him no chance it was only serviced 6 months ago and I have only done 1200 miles since then. Then he wanted me to pay £14.40 for a 32 point check so I said I may ring back before I bring it in because I could use the check next month when I change the car, he wasn't too happy when I said that.

There is a group of lawyers getting together to put a ‘collective actions’ under the Consumer Rights Act, for compensation for car owners in this country and this news is good for them, I joined it 3 months ago.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Will there <cough> be anything in it <cough> for all the people they've <cough> poisoned with their <cough> emissions cheat?

I need to get my hands on some of that compo.

<cough, cough>:mis:

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I'm sure you'll soon start getting the phone calls and texts.

"We'd like to talk to you about your recent accident / ppi claim / VW claim" ......

"We understand you recently came into contact with the emmisions of a VW" ......

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I'd drop VW UK a line about that dealer. They shouldn't be touting for workshop work on top of the recall.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I am going to, don't worry.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I do wish HMG would just make those calls illegal but they'd probably just go offshore. :mad:

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38603723

More detail about how VW went about their subterfuge.

I bet there's more than a few squeaky bottoms amongst the ranks of the car industry's executives because if this was down to the difficulty of meeting the ever more onerous emissions standards at a realistic cost, how many other diesel manufacturers may have done the same thing and what about those who may have suffered because they didn't go down that route?

VW evidently cheated their way to market share and in so doing may have put other honest manufacturers at a huge competitive disadvantage. I wonder if they'll take legal action too.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Jeremy Clarkson About half way down that page.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Have to say i think the yanks have a bit of cheek making such a fuss about car emissions given the things they produce and their record on pollution in general .Are the yanks really that concerned about pollution or do they see this an opportunity to sue someone and stick it to the foreign car makers

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Two wrongs don't make a right. People bought VWs in good faith and were conned. There is a heavy price to pay and the US settlement should only be the start. Nor should VW think it can limit its losses; it will end when it ends including prison sentences and unlimited funds for redress. Preferably at a point when the Company breaks.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Of course the company should be held accountable but i think the amount of money going to compensate people for something they probably didn't even consider when they bought the car is ridiculous and only serves to fuel a compensation culture

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Source

How many other manufacturers are up to cheating one wonders?

While they're investigating this they should also look at the scandalous MPG claims that can never be obtained in practice. Some models claim 40% better than in real driving.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Not wanting to be poisoned is not 'a compensation culture'. People who have never bought a car are being poisoned by this filth and VW have betrayed everyone especially those who have invested in their brand, including their sister companies. The compensation culture is the means to make VW pay for its lies; I'd rather have cleaner air but financial ruination for VW would be the next best thing.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

without a doubt there will be more .

I think this is a much bigger issue than the emissions scandal .People will buy cars based on mpg a lot more than emissions.

A good article here on that very subject

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Are you sure about that? I'd like it put to the test by asking parents which they would choose.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

If people did't want to be poisoned that much they wouldn't buy cars at all .Cars will pollute that is an inescapable fact ,the only variable is how much it will pollute and as far as the average car buyer is concerned the amount that cars can pollute is heavily regulated and enforced once a year through the MOT ,removing their need to concern themselves with it too much .
Instead of filling the pockets of people who in reality couldn't care less about car emissions and weren't inconvenienced at all why not just heavily fine the company ,lock a few of the execs up and force the company to develop less polluting vehicles.

---------- Post added at 12:15 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

speaking as a parent i can state that when i bought my VW van the only thing i was concerned about was mpg and load capacity .I suspect most parents will look at price, mpg,comfort and room inside long before they go into what emissions come out of the back end which will vary on a daily basis

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Isn't that what VWs cheat device is all about? Conning test procedures but resuming its pollution on the road?

They'll care alright when their kids develop the associated respiratory problems. They should be compensated, the execs locked up, the Company heavily fined and stuff the Company.

What you can't see won't hurt you eh? I hope your kids agree.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Not sure it could con a rolling road test with a wand in the tail pipe for an MOT ,i think the software is more designed to con the regulatory bodies in lab testing .

no car manufacturer has ever promised no harmful emissions.Whatever VW said their emissions were supposed to be there will still be harmful emissions ,that is the cost of having cars on the roads .VW really only cheated the various governments who gave them green car allowances and tax reductions based on the emissions ,the general public that bought the cars were still poisoning the atmosphere even if the emissions were correctly reported

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I don't think it's a full rolling road test, just the driven axle like a dynamometer. The "trick" is using the ABS sensors to determine that the undriven wheels are not turning so it must be a test.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Indeed. Can you imagine the furore if we had pulled this trick?

Never said they did but VW actively cheated their way around the parameters regarded as tolerable purely to enhance their profits at the cost of goodness knows how many respiratory related complications and deaths.

It's not just about cheating governments, VW cheated everyone and took them for mugs. I hope they are buried and would encourage everyone, regardless of whether they have one of the cars from their Group, to pursue them until they break.

And that includes you and your dirty van ;).

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I would imagine that Diesel Vehicles will have to pay much more Road Tax in the future... Is our British Government going to sue VW like the Americans.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Vehicle Excise Duty has been revised for 2017. The Exchequer were 'losing out' under the existing system.

I don't think the Government plans to sue; it is being left to owners.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Its not that straightforward. The emissions they were cheating on were NOx (Oxides of Nitrogen), while road tax is only decided on CO2 emissions, I'm not sure how the cheating affected the output of those gases.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Looks like they're still at it:

Source

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

A bit like politicians in that they say they won't do it after they get caught out but alas they still continue to get up to the same dirty deeds unabated afterwards...

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

VW/Audi/Skoda/Seat are on my list of poisonous-junk-I-will-never-buy; I hope more people realise these noxious fumes are probably creating 'asthma' in our kids. :(

It will be a wonderful bonus if leaving the EU makes the import tariff on these cars (even more) unattractive.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Wow . . you really have got strange ideals.

Why don't you go the whole hog and refuse to buy ANY vehicle at all, in fact avoid anything made with steel and plastic, stop using 90% of household cleaners, then move out into the middle of nowhere and live off the land.

There's a heck of a lot more stuff damaging peoples health than a few cars putting out 0.1% more 'poisonous' fumes. :shocked:

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Quite a list l would imagine.;)

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Don't concern yourself with my 'strange ideals' if they confuse you

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I've never understood the "if we can't fix everything, we shouldn't try to fix anything" approach.

Most improvements are incremental, rather than Big Bang.

ymmv

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Do you sell cars for a living by chance?:dozey:

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Likewise. It doesn't make the slightest iota of sense to anyone but refuseniks.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Posts removed.

Behave like adults, or you will be taking a break, you (both) know who you are.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Well, I certainly would not buy a car from VW, Audi, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, SEAT or Škoda or a Ducati motorcycle.

I'd prefer it if manufacturers didn't deliberately cheat emissions rules and the VW group just cannot be trusted.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

And can any other groups be trusted?.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

VW are proven cheats (even by their own German regulators). You can be sure they will have looked hard to share the pain with others.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

British Leyland could always be trusted. The Allegro has never been bettered. Rusty heaps with terrible emissions, but they never pretended otherwise; they actually started sometimes, which was a bonus...

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...-emissions-row

Best include Mercedes-Benz, Honda, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Renault, Nissan, Hyundai, Citroen, Fiat, Volvo and Jeep on that list as well...

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Tesla?

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

On yer bike. :D

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Ha ha but of course :). There are some things that a car is handy for though. A Tesla model 3 is affordable and nice but hard to get at present.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Affordable at £35,000?.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Please don't spoil this - it's delicious!!

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

35000 dollars not pounds, so you and the missus can have one each.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

£35K is prime territory for shifting in great numbers on Lease/PCP or fleet.

My guess is they won't be able to build them fast enough when they come out here.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

Good to see some real action at last.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

The trail of deceit goes on and on..

https://www.theguardian.com/business...alsified-japan

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

They have all been doing this for years and it would be better for the whole automotive industry to just come clean in one single statement representing all manufacturers then this drip drip approach with some companies hoping they can blag it out.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I suppose having been relying on cheating the tests, development on cleaner engines by the German group is behind the curve.

Re: VW accused of 'rigging' emissions tests
 

I remain totally flabbergasted that any VW product has any popularity now in the UK. Those scheming trickster scheisters have knowingly contributed to pollution that is now known to kill people or give them shorter lives.