London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

So after much delay and prevarication to avoid upset at the last election for so many Tory supporting areas, the airports commission has come out in favour of a third runway to be built on the north side of Heathrow:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33340565

Inevitably many local campaigners, MPs, current London Mayor Boris Johnson, and others are all saying it's wrong. But many others, especially the business lobby support Heathrow expansion.

In my view you wouldn't build a new airport at Heathrow today, but the world was a different place when it started as a few tents in the 1950s. London Suburbs have expanded, and as Heathrow grew, so did the housing and other infrastructure that both supports and relies on it.

Heathrow is arguably better connected by road, and rail than the perceived alternative of Gatwick. But Gatwick expansion would be cheaper, and probably cause less disturbance to many. Expansion of either airports still warrants improved local transport.

Gatwick is the worlds busiest single runway airport. It and Heathrow are very close to capacity. In reality both airports are in need of expansion for different reasons. Indeed I think both airports should have an added runway, Heathrow so the much lauded hub status can be maintained, but Gatwick so that some of the Heathrow disturbance and capacity can be alleviated and spread around.

Re: London's New Runway
 

They should just bite the bullet and do both, you all know in another few years they'll be doing it again.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Something needs to be done but this report is probably just the end of the beginning, nothing more. It'll be many years before a single sod is turned. On balance ,Heathrow does seem to offer the most benefits overall but extending Gatwick and Stansted would also have benefits and help distribute the load. Something clearly needs to be done but as we've seen with our power generating infrastructure, these things tend to take decades to sort out in the UK. God only knows what sort of impact any of these options will have on the M25 which itself seems to be running near, at or over capacity much of the time.

Re: London's New Runway
 

All in all l am for it as it is badly needed.

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The Government is already playing down the recommendation and stalling on the decision. I think they're going to go with Gatwick.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Why can't they just bloody well get on with it.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Cameron catagorically ruled out Heathrow as an 2009 election promise. Doubt he'd want another U Turn on his record.

Linky

On the other hand he's quite duplicitous, must be that time being in hock to the Lib-Dems.

Personally I like Boris Island: Hong Kong built a whole new airport 18 miles out of the city with all the high speed infrastructure links. Just think hydrofoil links on the Thames to the city could whisk businessmen to the square mile faster than most other ways.

Shows what you CAN do if you really want to.

Wiki

Re: London's New Runway
 

According to Mary Creagh on the Daily Politics just now, any such development in the Thames estuary would have serious implications for flooding in London.

The problem we have is lack of space coupled with the sort of planning law which gives the opponents of any major schemes great power to delay them. I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but in places like China, Turkey, Dubai etc. they just ship people out (if that's required) and send in the bulldozers.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Presumably claimed with no factual backup. Thames barrier works whether there is a new island in the estuary or not.

Hence the attraction of a green field, well brown water, site. Oodles of extra space for more runways without tearing people from their homes. The Dutch are experts in building islands in estruries to reclaim land and have the kit on hand.

Re: London's New Runway
 

I don't know, she didn't explain but it was an immediate response when the subject of Boris Island came up. Given the timescales involved, maybe she's referring to the TB no longer being up to the job if an airport was built in the estuary.

Update:


Just reading up a little I found this which mentions the project and the inclusion of a new flood barrier.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thames_Estuary_Airport

My preference would be for a whole new airport but it's not going to happen.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Probably more like she's got her heart set on Heathrow and is just finding fatuous excuses. If there's a new island there must be less water as it's partially blocked the estuary. That would help the barrier surely?

Re: London's New Runway
 

Apparently it was designed to 'float' above the water not displace it so I'm confused too.

The TB is going to have to be replaced at some point so at least Boris's scheme would include this.

Anyway, why have a nice bright shiny new airport with plenty of capacity when we can bolt another bit onto Heathrow and find ourselves short of capacity again a couple of decades later?

Re: London's New Runway
 

Don't think that's a goer. Like I say the Dutch have been making new land for centuries and have got it cracked, look at the extensions to the port of Rotterdam.

Yep kill two birds with one stone, proper forward looking.

It'll look like the cheapest option but will end up being short of capacity, late and over budget mainly because of vociferous objection groups endless legal challenges.

Re: London's New Runway
 

The Thames Estuary provides a sort of reservoir into which all that tidal water being pushed around the English Channel and North Sea can be held without it all having to squeeze into the ever more restricted funnel of the Thames itself. Take away a large area of the estuary by building on or in it and that reduces the reservoir capacity potentially meaning the bottlenecked water will be more of a problem with a possible increase volume being pushed up towards London.

The real issue though is whether we, as a country, want to accept that we need communication and transport infrastructure to suit a modern economy. Air transport is here to stay whatever the environmentalists may say. Just as road transport has become more efficient, so has air transport. But it will never, in our lifetime, be green.

Our planning laws for major projects have become so convoluted and restrictive that doing anything takes forever. Inevitably these add a burdens significant costs through all the enquiries and other paraphanalia. We only have to look at HS2 which was talked about before the last parliament and still isn't close to construction starting.

So despite the need for more airport capacity, by the time that we manage to agree any new runway location, we'll already need a further runway. As a country we risk becoming so isolated that most of us will be doing short hops to Amsterdam, Paris or wherever has grown, before we can do the long haul stuff.

Re: London's New Runway
 

An interesting observation:

Source and additional info

IIRC some time ago experimental jet airliners based on current engine designs were being run on Hydrogen and fuel celled cars are just around the corner. If we can produce the Hydrogen using green energy we can still fly.

A major issue in such a crowded island.

Too true.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Why aren't we considering a new airport somewhere further north?

Re: London's New Runway
 

Perhaps because the ones that are elsewhere - Midlands, Manchester, etc have spare capacity and not enough demand? You'd need both airlines, passengers, and cargo hauliers to want to use other areas. With the high density of population in the South East, airports in demand will be those close to this location.

A major part of the problem is the need for interconnectivity between airlines. The smaller regional airports don't have the passenger flow to fill sufficient planes for the long haul stuff, excluding the once a week charters which obviously don't suit business. The regional airports thus have small feeder routes into the larger airports. Heathrow provides the hub connectivity and due to the capacity of Heathrow, Gatwick also has some hub offerings. We either allow that hub capacity to grow, by expansion, or we see our own airlines like BA start to falter as the regular traveller moves to Emirates or whoever.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Bit of a necro post but as the results due today...

This also made interesting reading.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33285659

Re: London's New Runway
 

No doubt Boris will be the hypocrite he usually is..

Re: London's New Runway
 

Yes, let's just have a prejudiced rant, so much easier than reading what's actually going on.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016...xpected-to-gi/

Re: London's New Runway
 

So are they:

- Going to build it at Heathrow?
- Going to build it at Gatwick?
- Build one at both!
- Kick the decision further into the long grass?

I am going with the last option. I am hoping for the third option.

Re: London's New Runway
 

The bbc link has shown that historically it's being endlessly kicked around. The obvious and sensible solution is one at both, we'll have to wait and see.

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Build one at Heathrow with a fudge about moving flights to Gatwick that will eventually be quietly shelved.

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Nothing prejudiced or political as he talks about making a success of Brexit and yes he opposes something that would help this country in the long run as Heathrow currently is bulging at the seams and needs extra capacity badly.

And it is not the first time he has been hypocritical as when he was mayor of London he was contradicting himself and there have been many other things as well.

http://www.getwestlondon.co.uk/news/...after-10604771

Re: London's New Runway
 

Looks like it's Heathrow according to the BBC.

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Shocking

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Boris has never opposed extra capacity. In fact he wants more capacity than can be delivered at LHR. He has long favoured an entirely new airport to the east of the city.

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I liked the idea of a new airport but we 'decided' on a new runway in 2003 and now it will be another year before a Parliamentary vote at which point the 10 year process of building the runway can begin before being stopped by a million lawsuits. We'll be lucky to see it built by 2030. Can you imagine how long an airport would have taken?

Re: London's New Runway
 

Obviously Heathrow has now been given the go ahead this morning but as we know there is a awful long way to go sadly as and l am certainly not against building capacity elsewhere either as l think we need it in quite a few places whether its at airports we already have and by building new ones in new areas of London and other big cities.

Re: London's New Runway
 

I liked the idea as well. Moving all the noise and pollution out of the capital and releasing the land at Heathrow for housing to help finance it. Would have been a win-win in my books. Hong Kong managed it in seven years including building a new island from the tops of three mountains and the connecting services.

Wiki

Shows what can be done if fingers are pulled out.

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Lawsuits brought by "local" protest groups which are actually a front for all the usual soap-dodging suspects, who, once they have had their day in court and lost, will then resort to building tree houses and protest tunnels all over the site while the authorities stand back and let them get on wth it. Having allowed crusty to get himself well dug in, the government will then apply to the courts to have him removed, and when the court has reserved judgment for a few months and then decided crusty has to go, then heard the appeal, then heard the last minute emergency severe hardship appeal because Ms crusty has just given birth while attached to her lock-in, the whole pantomime of digging him out can get underway.

Only then can any runway-building actually happen. Except it can't, because that's when a rare population of great crested newts is discovered right in the middle of the site.

I'd say 2030 is optimistic.

Re: London's New Runway
 

I think there will be lots of NIMBYism lawsuits as well. And now a by-election from Goldsmith.

---------- Post added at 12:10 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Goldsmith has now resigned. By-election. Be interesting if he stands as an independent against a Tory candidate. It's a safe seat but not that safe. It's an area which the Lib Dems might seek a shock win if the Tory vote is split.

Re: London's New Runway
 

So why not increase capacity somewhere else in the country? Why only Gatwick or Heathrow..Spread the chance of profits across the country. Who wouldn't rather use their local airport rather than travel halfway across the country towards London?

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Because London is where the additional capacity is needed. The airport is meeting the demand, not causing it.

Business travelers are more likely to want to go to London, there will be more connecting flights from London as well for Heathrow to be a hub. The demand isn't being caused by people going on holiday.

Re: London's New Runway
 

Because Heathrow operates a hub and spoke model. Long haul destinations are served from there. It is inefficient, in most cases, to operate long haul flights to the same destination from multiple airports that are located close together. That's why it has to be Heathrow; the infrastructure and services are already there, and the new runway can be built more quickly than Boris Island could be put into the Thames estuary. Every day we have delayed this, other airports (Schiphol, Paris CDG) have been working hard to steal business. They, too, are hub-and-spoke airports, and they are located close enough to LHR that their competition could result in flights shifting there.

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I thought they might put it of to avoid the by election, quite impressed they put the countries needs above their own self interest, unless of course they've done a deal with zach where he won't stand as an indy because I doubt they'd keep the seat if he did

Re: London's New Runway
 

Or the Tories let him run uncontested. Might be worth a shot. They probably wouldn't win so it's a choice between Goldsmith as an Independent who'll vote with them 99% of the time or risking a Lib Dem who'll vote against them. Not to mention the headache of Liberal Democrats picking up seats from them in Remain areas.

Re: London's New Runway
 

[INTERNAL SWEAR FILTER OFF]

[RANT ON]
I can't say want I truley belive because the swear filter would explode and I'd get a pemanet ban.

I personal think Stansted should have been chosen, had it happened I would not have lost my job because the company I worked for then decided to move to Belgium making nearly 100 Brits redundants.

The blame was 1000000% the NIMBYs who moved next to a major airport and protest.

IMHO they should have been told to go forth an multiply, they have no rights or say if they moved next to a airport within the last 20 years.

With regards to Heathrow the govenment need to grow a pair of balls and build ASAP, the MPs should back or quit (and my NOT pro Tory).

I have nothing but contempt for the NIMBY **** that don't care about jobs and think they have more rights than the tens of thounds that rely on their local airport for work, be it working there or in companies that support the airport and businesses in and around the airport

[RANT OFF]

[INTERNAL SWEAR FILTER ON]

Re: London's New Runway
 

Stansted need to address the amount of passengers they already have before they can be considered for another runway. That probably held them back as well. I had to travel a lot from Stansted this year, at one point weekly, and it's the most packed airport i've flown from in the UK. Long lines for check in, for security and packed terminal. They need another terminal if they increase their flights imo.

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The Liberal Democrats have won the seat overturning a massive majority:

That backfired for Goldsmith somewhat. Many Labour voters also wanted further retribution for the way he ran his Mayoral campaign.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Terrible shame ;) Zac's not a bad man but his mayoral campaign was disgraceful.

How much is this is to do with Heathrow and how much the way the Govt. is cack handingly Brexiting is hard to say. Probably a combination of both. Don't think this is any great new love for the Lib Dems; they're still in single figures in the national polls.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Too many issues for this to be indicative of anything. Of course, that grasping windbag Farron will say it's about brexit (and wraith-like Old Nick was in attendance to associate himself with a libdem 'victory'). Sad really.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Wow, upper/middle class constituency which voted against Brexit in the referendum votes the same way in a token bye election. Clearly HMG must change tack!

:rolleyes:

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

The Lib Dems have been out performing the national polls so it's hard to know what is happening. For them though this is about some semblance of recovery, they'll be delighted to get back to even half of where they were.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

In a low turn out with no Tory candidate a toothy mum with minimal experience in politics had a cup of tea to celebrate that she is a resident of Richmond. Oh ya. :sleep:.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

I agree with Damien, I think Lib Dems will pick up spectacularly in the next GE, given how tired much of the country is with Conservatives & the complete absence of credibility from Labour, I'd say they are in a fantastic position moving forward.

(I'm not a lib dem supporter btw)

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

To be clear I think they'll aim for 30-40 seats.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

I think it will take longer then one election for the country to forget what sellouts the lib dems were when they had a sniff of power and the rabid pro EU stance will also be a turnoff. Labour are and will continue being a joke as long as corbyn and his ilk are around but rather then swathes of traditional labour voters going over to the lib dems or ukip they will just stay home and not vote at all. Despite all his effort Farron comes across to me personally as untrustworthy and false and he hasn't won back the few lib dem voters i know but time will tell.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

sniff of power was about right, lets be honest here, given the power dynamic they didn't really have much more than a sniff of power in the coalition, don't talk like they ran the show.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

It won't be a turnoff to those who'll vote Lib Dem. 48% of people voted Remain. They can do nicely out of that. They're not aiming to win an election but regain some seats.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

I may be wrong but weren't you wrong about about Scottish independence, wrong about brexit and wrong about President Trump's election? I think we can be assured this prediction shouldn't yet be carved on a stone slab.

Now don't get uppitty, it's just a little bit of fun :D

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

A good judge of it will be if we have several more by-elections and then one might be able to see if there is a recovery of their core vote.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Yeah not sure we're going to see a general election for now

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

If the remoaners manage to scupper Brexit or it ends up as a dogs dinner of half way out things may well change.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Tbh if the government continues to hint towards a EEA bespoke deal then Remainers may well hold back and think fair enough.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

I never said or hinted they ran the show hence my use of the phrase "sniff of power" they reported a few compromises they got but we all knew they didn't amount to much and they sold out on a couple of their election pledges, so calm down and don't read more into something then is there.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Bye-election results are rarely reflected in a General Election.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Yeah how many times have people talked about surges or a rising support for a party after a by election victory it's never happened in general elections and i don't think lib dems should get their hopes up over this.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Outstanding viewpoint - if you don't get what you want, it's someone else's fault, and all Brexiteers have nothing to do with it.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

It works for remain supporters.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

You forgot to say "they did it first" or "a big boy did it, and ran away..."... ;)

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

She's already delivered her first car-crash interview, complete with storming off halfway through: http://order-order.com/2016/12/02/sa...or-intervenes/

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

That interview was hilarious and the way she wimped out of it must make her constituent's have great faith in her ability.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

She's going to have some media training booked in this week I reckon.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Mind you she was unequivocal in accepting the total legitimacy the vote which got her elected. Odd that eh? The public evidently didn't know what 'do you want to leave the EU' means but they knew exactly what they were doing when they voted for her. Another quality politician on the payroll...

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Oh yeah she's obviously the new breed of politician my vote was absolutely fine but the vote we wanted to win but didn't that should be redone so people can vote the right way.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! :D

Poor thing; it's not fair to ask Libdems questions; they have no answers to anything :bigcry:

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

We should also be diligent in pointing out that if this by election was another referendum on Brexit (as the lib dems repeatedly claimed during their campaign), then the election result delivered a more than 20-point swing to Leave in one of the most remainiac constituencies in Britain. :D

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

There is a good piece here on the result: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-richmond-park

This isn't going to impact on Brexit but it is a further sign of Liberal Democrat recovery. Something I obviously welcome. I think we need a strong liberal party more than ever, the government has passed a bill allowing the government, and many public organisations, to see a years worth of Internet history without a warrant.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

In their current state i hope the lib dems don't recover they are so ridiculously pro EU that they fail to recognise anything but their view, it's also worth remembering how much trouble we'd have been in if the lib dems got what they wanted by being in the single currency and a lot deeper into the EU then we were. I don't know exactly what it is but i cannot stand farron just a gut feeling that he is not to be trusted or believed too much and i know that applies to nearly all politicians these days but he really induces intensity in me far more then the rest of them.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

You're not alone, I cannot stand Fallon, I was not a fan of Clegg either. The Lib Dems will not get anywhere where they once where not with their Pro-EU stance.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

I did enjoy that.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

I like China's method of construction.

They would just build the runway and if the NIBYs don't like it tough.

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Yes, China are such a good example to follow...

https://www.theguardian.com/environm...china-one-year [quote]

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

ah that's the iphone factory workers on their way to work for another 20hr shift ;)

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Well they have form with other construction projects:

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/05/19/as...a-nail-houses/

Cheers

Grim

Re: London's New Runway - Zac Goldsmith loses seat to Liberals
 

Yes I don't want to sound like a moaning libtard but companies really should look at their workplace practices when so many of their staff decide suicide is the preferable option to completing another shift