[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Having lied about giving us one, signed away more of our powers to Europe and opposed the notion of an in/out referendum for so very long, Labour are now suddenly in favour apparently. Yes, now they're out of office, they've suddenly decided it's the right thing to do and this change of heart has nothing whatsoever to do with a cynical attempt at face saving.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32863749

Had they won the election, in spite of what Harman claims they 'heard on the doorsteps', I doubt very much they'd have given two hoots for what they now 'accept' the people want but there we are. Say one thing, do another is in their DNA...

Anyway, I just hope this isn't going to turn into a replay of the Scottish referendum. This is a massively important issue and we need good clear information on which to base our decisions. I want to hear the arguments for and against properly articulated, without the sort of pathetic hysteria we've heard from those opposed to change who'd have us believe that life outside the EU could only be catastrophic. Equally I don't want us to be fooled into thinking that leaving would be a panacea for all our ills.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This will be the first of many U turns they will do to try and con there way back into power at the next election.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Unfortunate sign of how cynical we all are about politicians that, when they do give the impression of listening to us, we think they are just changing tack to try and win power.

My biggest issues with Labour revolve around their illiberal 'We know best' attitude and their tendency to think they can change everything for everyone from Westminster.

Their manifesto's commitments to devolution showed some signs that they are slowly but surely 'getting it' as far as democracy in the Internet age goes.

Let's hope that they carry this on. We need strong, effective opposition.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The rise of UKIP has shown the other parties that a lot of the population wants out of the EU, or major reforms, especially when it comes to uncontrolled migration.

So they change their spots to appear to be listening.

I doubt we will get a referendum though, Cameron will just announce that he has been successful in bringing about change in some way or another.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Somewhat the UKIP effect, but probably also realising that the public were quite offended by the arrogance of Labour saying 'We know best, we should stay in the EU, you shouldn't have a referendum.'

Labour's traditional way of operating, changing things at the top, centralised decision making, very much 'we know best' doesn't work any more. Good.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing wrong with them changing your mind as l am sure many of us do in our own lives from time to time as sometimes its important to listen and learn.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Er. Vote Labour!

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

And that's what his whole intention is and was before he promised the referendum.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

True - there is a big problem with politicians saying one thing and doing the other however, especially just before and after elections. They really can't blame people for treating them with incredulity - when they start being honest and consistent they'll get the trust they deserve and they'll have earnt it.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They have not changed my mind at all ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That bears repeating :tu:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Absolutely!

Probably why he announced he would not be standing for a further term.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We will. Cameron has to do the deals to try to appease the voters to vote to stay in. But he committed to the referendum, it will happen.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I agree it will happen but Cameron will lie through his back teeth to ensure 100% that we stay in. As for concessions from our masters in Brussels, they will give us a little bit here and a little bit there but in the end it will costs us far more than it does now.

I already now what i will vote and that's "get us to hell OUT"

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I don't think many people seriously think this referendum isn't now going to happen.

It was a key election pledge which several ministers, including Cameron, have reaffirmed since the election.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's not as easy as the kippers would have us believe and this utopia where we get the best of both worlds like "Norway" is hogwash to, this is the sort of thing we need to have a sensible, adult conversation about in the run up to referendum but sadly it's beyond most politicians.

Another thing is did Dave say we were having a referendum or did he say we'd have one if he couldn't get reforms, I can't remember if he has said both just remember the latter.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Cameron is saying that changes to Tax Credits need to happen. I bet he will come back claiming victory reducing Tax Credits EU citizens can claim here.... after they get slashed by the Chancellor for UK citizens.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My understanding is that Cameron will seek the reforms and then we get to vote on whether we want to remain in the EU with the new conditions in place ,I think if he gets the reforms he wants he will campaign to stay in ,if he doesn't get the reforms he will campaign to leave

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Both. However he will get some reforms. It's not in the EU's interest not to concede at all or at least not to pretend that they've conceded some ground. I think Cameron will win some meaningful concessions over benefits and then they'll dress up existing policies as new. For example a state doesn't have to open themselves to free movement from a newly joined state right away and I can see Cameron coming back with an 'assurance' of a 'waiting period' when the next member joins. I think he will also get another meaningless assurance that we won't have to sign up to the Euro.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I will treat the referendum as I did the election. Ignore all the rubbish in the polls and on telly. I already have a good idea how I will vote and it will take something major to change my mind.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I am thinking the decision is similar to the Scottish independence vote where the voters were offered a choice of a rosy, independant future based on little hard evidence and no guarantees. In the end, they stayed with the devil they know (for now).

Maybe this is a similar choice: the consequences of leaving/staying in need to spelt out clearly and in terms that most people can understand. Can the politicians do this this without falling back on the emotive arguments, probably not.

One this is certain, the EU is dead man walking at the moment. It need radical overhaul to become a reason to stay in. If this is seen to be happening then I think the vote will be a stay in outcome especially if Dave get some concessions on economic migrants.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

We won't get the reforms.

The big one, freedom of movement, is a fundemental principal the EU is founded on.

Anything that requires treaty change will be avoided, because in many other nations that may also trigger a referendum.

No, Cameron will only get small beer.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU has to change and I think Germany knows this. They are scared at the prospect of the UK leaving. France is dragging the EU down and I suspect Germany is getting fed up of underwriting the whole show.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-Britain.html

The above link was in the DM today. I know it's not the most reliable paper for information but it rings true.

David Cameron's hopes of securing changes to the EU's treaties within the next two years were left in tatters this morning after France and Germany stitched up a secret deal bypassing the UK to tighten their grip on Europe.
The Prime Minister held talks with the European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker at Chequers last night – pushing his plan to overhaul Britain's relationship with Brussels before holding an in/our referendum in 2017.
But he was left humiliated after a pact between French President Francois Hollande and German Chancellor Angela Merkel was leaked ruling out the need for EU treaty change – a key plank of Mr Cameron's planned renegotiation.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nothing would surprise me. I really don't see 'negotiations', whether in good faith or not, yielding significant change so the EU will carry on regardless of reality until the whole thing implodes. I don't for one minute believe we will be immune to the fallout but right now I do think we're better getting off a juggernaut heading for disaster than staying on board with our fingers crossed. If it turns out that DC has been misled I think he should be man enough to stand up and tell us rather than perpetuate this sort of duplicity with more weasel words.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The question has been decided! Yes to stay in the EU, No to leave. Essentially the Government has learnt from the Scottish referendum that 'Yes' is a better campaign than 'No' .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Germany is fine with this so long as they can keep overproducing and selling their underpriced exports to the rest of the Eurozone.

#1 beneficiary of the Euro has been Germany by a long way. No EU, no Euro.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well look what Germany is doing with Greece they have them held to ransom, we dont want to be going down that road

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I'm pretty solid on voting "OUT" unless we get more concessions than they are ever likely to give - even though we are a net CONTRIBUTOR - so we should bang that drum mercilessly in pursuit of a deal that works for us!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Same here

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The difference is that, as a populace, we (mostly) don't have a problem paying taxes, so our Government is (again, mostly) funded.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That and we don't share a currency with Germany. :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Mmm,you mean like The Vow?

Vow,what vow,David wherefore art vow !!!

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They could hold the vote today or next year i don't care. I will vote NO whatever.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Just make sure you read the question first. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You realise that the only people who still bang on about that are the ones who were always going to vote Yes anyway? ;)

It's an interesting point though, isn't it. I am going to thoroughly enjoy listening to Wee Nippy Sturgeon and Fat Aleck tying themselves in semantic knots, trying to explain why a parliament in France and a bureaucracy in Belgium is good for Scotland, whereas continuing a three-centuries old union with a parliament at the other end of the A1 is supposedly bad.

Or perhaps the SNP secretly agrees with David Cameron, that continuing membership of the EU must require us to delete the phrase "ever closer union" from the relevant treaties.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

IMHO the drive to 'ever closer union' will result in the exact opposite, but not in any controlled manner.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What ever the question my answer will be to leave.

See below :)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

All you have to do now is get a NO imprint on your face now.;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I read the last one..I do not recall being asked if I wanted to join a federated Europe.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

David Cameron will fail in bid to renegotiate Britain's membership of the EU, predicts former Tory chancellor.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10298853.html

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Didn't you think it rather odd as to why London sent up its troops two days before the referendum,the day before that the YES we're ahead in one of the major polls,then out came Hen Broon with his scare tactics regarding pensioners,ans some clown who couldn't see the Wood for the oil claiming it was about to run dry only for him to retract his claim,then we had the good old warmongers from the OO marching through Edinburgh shouting No Surrender,not forgetting the Blatently Biased Company who are still the same.

Scotland will vote overwhelmingly for the EU,trust me on that.
As for NS ever agreeing with DC,no chance.

---------- Post added at 12:20 ---------- Previous post was at 12:13 ----------

Really?
Last night I was sitting listening to one of my favourite bands,Genesis.
One of the tracks from the album Selling England by the pound was called 'Suppers ready,' by chance the next song was from the Tresspass cd called 'Stagnation,' I found it rather appropriate because this is what is happening right now,the supper isn't ready,i.e.foodbanks,the country is stagnating,i.e.austerity.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes I rather got that impression. ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Stagnation? Times are still tough of course but, compared to large chunks, of Europe the UK's doing rather well it appears to me. That's one reason why there's so much migration from the EU.

The judgement we're all facing is whether the UK is going to do better with or without the confines of EU membership.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Doing rather well you say?

http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes, compared to large parts of the EU. You missed that bit didn't you.

We all know about the huge debt - which is why the cuts are being made. You claimed the UK is 'stagnating' which is nonsense. Tell the hundreds of thousands of migrants who've found jobs here in the last few years that the UK is stagnating and they'll show you Spain, Greece, Portugal, Italy, France...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There's 4 times the amount of migrants in Germany,likewise Italy,3 times France and Holland,Spain has the highest,we need migrant workers in the UK,if a person has a EU passport then they are entitled to live here,you do know that,don't you?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Yes I am well aware thanks lol

You claimed the UK is stagnating and right now we're doing a lot better than a lot of EU countries and not stagnating at all. There aren't too many migrants looking for work in Spain or Greece or France or Portugal right now, they're coming here because we are creating jobs and much of Europe isn't. I've no idea why you've brought entitlement into it - I haven't questioned that, just pointing out the reasons people are still coming here by the hundreds of thousands annually and it isn't because of the stangnation, austerity and food banks you claim are representative of the UK. You do know that don't you?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I sure do,I also know that many parts of the North of England are totally against austerity yet they wonder why the Tories want to continue with the HS2 and 3 project.
It's still not official that the wrecking of the heart of England's countryside will yet take place,hopefully common sense will prevail,I have my doubts.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What parts? Spoken to everyone have you?

I live in the North of England and support austerity measures so far, I also believe in investing in infrastructure. hs2/3, my only complaint is the time it will take to build.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Put the train lines on the back burner for at least 25 years,by that time we may all be financially rich,or maybe poor,most likely the latter,or dead even.:angel:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I remember people saying the same thing about the M25 in the 80's, that it was too expensive and would never be fully utilised.

How's that worked out for them?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The UK might not be stagnating but the wages are, thanks in a large part to those hundreds of thousands of migrants

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

is that the one known as "the road to hell "

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I live in the North and agree 100% with austerity as do a lot of northerners I know,I am also experiencing the best time for well over a decade in construction for the North of England .
Whatever people think of the need for HS2 the project will provide new jobs and will most definitely not "wreck the heart of England" ,my only issue with HS2 is that for best results it should have happened 20 yrs ago.
If we listened to people like you all the time we would still be using horse and carts.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Nope, it's the road to nowehere - you either sit in traffic or go round in circles... :D

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:10 ----------

Now, now, don't go raining on the 'austerity/stagnation/starvation' parade... :D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I know ,listening to some people it's a crime to think things are going well ,and can I point out (to people like Marsbar) that Austerity is all about good management of available money not about punishing people or depriving them of services so naturally all of us 'Northerners' are mostly in favour of good management ,it's mismanagement and waste we hate .

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Strange that you say you're happy with your lot,the reason I say that is because I have relations and friends in Fleetwood,Newcastle,Birningham,and Cornwall and they are unhappy at seeing London get so much jobs the Govt seem to have forgotten the rest of the UK.


Now now,sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It didn't escape you though did it? :D

Yes London's streets are paved with gold. It's not at all the case that some of the UK's most deprived areas are in London but don't let facts trouble your reasoning. London's not immune from all that austerity, stagnation, homelessness, unemployment...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Grrrrr.:D

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I suggest your friends open their eyes and have a look around

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

the reason the snp want to stay in the eu is we them become like the romanians,bulgarians.etc and plead poverty so that our paymasters in Brussels shower us with(bribes) money to keep us in their gang.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They have and they're not happy,the country is falling apart at the seams,Cameron still won't chase after the city tax dodgers,why not?

You mean shower Britain,Scotland is not in the EU,it comes under the UK.
As for bribes,are you saying Romania and Bulgaria give backhanders to Brussels,if so,have you any proof of it?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I couldn't give a toss about London, there are plenty of jobs outside of London.

IMO, only an idiot would want to move to London.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is 1.84 million unemployed in the UK,last month there was 560k jobs available in England,most of them being in London,not everyone can afford to pack their bags and move there,more so as folk are moving out of the city because buying a house there costs a small fortune.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

This is a genuine question, as I quite confused about the number of jobs available statistic.

Back in 2011, when unemployment was at a record level of 2.7 million, it was stated the that there were only around 500k jobs available, but since then the unemployment figures have dropped by nearly 900k, but there are still around 500k vacancies.

It can't just be stats fiddling, as the number of people employed is currently at it's highest figure of over 31 million.....

http://www.theguardian.com/business/...e-growth-rises

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I liked living in London. There's always somewhere to go and something to do. Now I live in a village it's nice but sometimes it is boring and I yearn for the 24hour hustle and bustle of London.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My sister loved living in London but it simply became too expensive for her although she still goes back for daytrips when she can because there is so much to do and see up there she says.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

My wife and daughter were at the Golden Jubilee at Buckie Palace in 2012,the day prior to that they went to the London Eye,it was ****ing down so they bought a rain mac each,in Edinburgh a few years earlier for the street festival parade,again it was ****ing down,again they bought rain macs,it was £1.00 in Edinburgh,it was £12.00 in London.

---------- Post added at 17:34 ---------- Previous post was at 17:30 ----------

My uncle and his wife used to live in Ongar,London,then moved to Harlow,old mill,cracking places,though I heard Old Mill has changed a lot in the past few years.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

IMHO it's not a simple YES or NO answer.

We need to be told in clear simple English the pros and cons of leaving.

Not written in gobbledegook that only 1% can understand.

Only then can I make a proper judgement.

I want us to leave the EU, so we can get rid of undesirable without all this human rights BS. Then terrorist suspects can't use us as a safe haven. Also stop those how come here just to claim our benefits.

---------- Post added at 17:44 ---------- Previous post was at 17:43 ----------

'arlow my home.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The EU and the EU human rights courts are separate entities you don't have to accept one to be in the other

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

How many exactly of the 560k were positioned in London?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The latest vacancies figure I can find is 733k in April (down from 745k From March) - can't find a breakdown by region.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/unit.../job-vacancies

Update - this is just under two years old, but shows a breakdown by region.

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/bus-re...-industry.html

Of the 435k vacancies at that time, 135k were in London, 300k outside.....

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

So no answer then?

Except that there are 200k more jobs than posted. But no one can say how many are based within m25

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

What a surprise.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...e-sack-eu-exit

How very presumptuous for anyone who seriously wanted this referendum to be anything other than a box ticking exercise to assume that the results of negotiations would be positive.

It looks like it's exactly as Carswell said - get a few concessions for political, rather than any practical, reasons, put the appropriate spin on them to portray them as a glorious victory and go full throttle for an 'in' vote.

Pretty much the same kind of BS that was sold to the electorate over the £1.7 billion bill last year.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

He can spin it all he wants, i will be voting to leave the EU. I would hope lots more do as well.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Some will. Many will probably swallow the BS every bit as willingly as they have over the past 5 years.

Add them to the big businesses who make a ton of money out of the corporatist EU, add the idealistic who think we should all be singing around the camp fire singing the EU anthem with free movement of everything and complete open door immigration and I wouldn't rate the chances of winning too highly.

On the upside it does mean you can retire in Malta freely under the free movement rules.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Sadly, but thankfully, the public's 'nose' has been acutely attuned to BS over the last couple of decades. UKIP secured a great many votes despite their perceived lack of other policies and IMHO the referendum could well go against Cameron in spite of all the resources which will no doubt be directed at ensuring we stay in.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I could anyway, my wife and her family are from Malta.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It looks like Cameron's approach is not going doing too well with others in his party.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Not really,

Cameron is well known to be pro-europe.

He is on record as saying he does not want to be remembered as the prime minister that took the UK out of the EU.

He only offered the referendum to head off the UKIP vote.

But at least we will have a referendum. I am definitely in the undecided camp.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Linky

Furious back peddling as he overstepped the mark and risked damaging Tory splits. :D

Cameron will recommend we stay in the EU even if he gets no significant changes but he'll doll it up like something really good. If his lips begin to move be afraid.

Once the millions in North Africal arrive at Calais having been ferried across the med by the royal navy...

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

The best time for a referendum is when the above reaches such a peak even the hardened Liberals who would allow anyone and his brother in will start complaining enough is enough. Maybe around summer next year ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

There is never a limit for them, so you'll be holding off until hell freezes over for that one.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It must go ahead . I will be voting NO.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

They should sack him.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well, if you can't get him voted out...... ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

You won't like it there, full of immigrants, porous borders

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

It will come sooner than you think.
you'll be sitting there eating your sausage, egg and beans. and on the TV there will be 'Breaking News - Cameron Ousted Out!'

it will happen. believe me.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well he is going to retire in 5 years anyway so you will get your wish eventually.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Thatcher got stabbed in the back. I wonder who's queuing up Brutus fashion behind Cameron?

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

One suspects the queue will get longer as we go along.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

Well they do say that Cameron is like Thatchers long lost son.

I say that history is about to repeat itself.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

tbf, your prediction accuracy* rate is quite low, if not non-existent.... :D

*nationwide riots and insurrection
2015 General Election results

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

That's still coming.

Quote:

2015 General Election results

The election was a fix that's why.

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I find Arthur is more accurate than Gary :LOL:

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...1&d=1433790914

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FopyRHHlt3M

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

i think your right i voted ukip and they didn't win before that when i voted con the lib-dems got in and let the cons think they where in charge ;)

re: [Update] The UK votes to leave the EU
 

I think Arthur is more funny than you :LOL:

---------- Post added at 20:32 ---------- Previous post was at 20:31 ----------

And I didn't vote at all :)