Will virgin tap into bt?
 

With the rollout of fibre optic cable throughout the country, does anyone know if VM might piggy back onto BT's cable network to serve areas not currently receiving full Virgin services?

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

That would be a no.

It was considered last year. VM's parent company cancelled the project at quite a late stage in favour of expansion of the VM cable network.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Two years ago I think it was last mentioned on here?

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Thank you for this. I am aware that Virgin are expanding into new areas, but this will still leave a lot of people not served at all. I just wondered whether they would be likely to 'infill' using BT fibre optic cables.

Telegraph wires were proposed a while ago now but I've not heard any more about this.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Again, no.

BT do not have any fibre optic telegraph wires.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Maybe it was this ? http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/4...aph-poles.html

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Possibly, but that's a method for VM to make extending their own network cheaper, and nothing to do with BT fibre

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Yep, my mistake.

---------- Post added at 15:41 ---------- Previous post was at 15:21 ----------

Virgin don't really care about those left unserved for right now beyond the Project Lightning areas. They don't seem interested in using BT's infrastructure in any way. They have done trials and haven't progressed them to deliver products for several reasons.

They have recently successfully trialled new ways to deploy their cable and full fat fibre optic networks and will do this where the financial case makes sense. That isn't everywhere, but then BT only did 2/3rds of the country out of their own pocket. VM will have greater coverage than BT's commercial FTTC rollout did, and at considerably higher cost.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Indeed, it was the project ( actually called project fibre) to basically just become another BT reseller same as everyone else. It was quite rightly cancelled as it meant we would be no different than everyone else in this areas. Expanding the cable footprint was/is definitely the right move.


However I think the question is more to with the recent ofcom announcement where it is considering making BT open up its fibre backhaul network.

This would not make difference to VM.

VM already has a very extensive national fibre network, but it doesn't mean it can or will build out from it to new areas.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Indeed. I would imagine proximity to existing backhaul is just one consideration. How close the area is to existing network, whether the hubsite has capacity, the headend if the hubsite doesn't have CMTS / CCAP, and simple civils costs and expected uptake.

Connecting up orphan plant I'm sure helps with the maths too. The £750 per premises passed all in allocated to Lightning is generous.

The BT dark fibre stuff is I suspect more about mobile mast backhaul, with the EE merger likely to go through.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

There is still space for differentiation though.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Yes, but not enough to give a real different proposition to the consumer.

VM can offer something that is totally diverse from the BT/ et al. One. And I think the consumer, lucky enough to have the choice, is better for it.

And, obviously, if you're lucky enough to be able to access services from another party so much the better.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

I think the problem is that the key differentiator Virgin currently has - broadband speed - would be the same as anyone else. Virgin could potentially offer IPTV that would thrash the competition since they already have those deals set up but I'm not sure that'd be worth the tradeoff in confusing customers between Virgin Cable and what used to be called Virgin national. I knew quite a few people on Virgin national who had no idea that it wasn't fibre-optic.

If they wanted to have another "national" style service, they'd be far better off doing it under another brand (like BT and PlusNet), but is it worth it? I'm guessing they've decided that they're better off spending their money on fibre.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

;);):) spot onhttp://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...ons/icon12.gif

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Totally agree. I always thought that rebranding Virgin National to NTL or similar and offering a TalkTalk/PlusNet price point could be a winner. BT with PlusNet and Sky with Now TV both tap the lower pay TV market successfully but VM does not.
One possible expansion of the VM network could be seen if Liberty Global and Vodafone collaborate as mentioned in this recent news article. http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2015/...vodafone-deal/

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

VM built the infrastructure to deploy using BT's FTTC network, Liberty pulled it.

Liberty have no interest in expanding using BT's access network. Vodafone have the Cable and Wireless LLU network however by the time VM have completed the Lightning build they'll pass the vast majority of that footprint too.

Vodafone's LLU network passes about 16 million premises. VM's network will pass about 17 million premises once Lightning is done.

The 'budget' end of the market is seriously congested now. There's no real value in someone like VM joining in. TalkTalk have the benefit of scale, a big customer base, and a big LLU network; Plusnet have the benefits of being part of BT; Sky have their DBS TV and use phone and broadband as a retention tool for that.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

True, there'd be no point VM offering a standalone broadband product over BT's infrastructure but everybody's raging about quad-play these days driving higher ARPU. It'd give VM some additional coverage there (assuming IPTV works properly of course), as the other quad-play product (Mobile) is not limited to VM's cabled areas either.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Thing is the only option to expand coverage past the existing areas would either be to pay TalkTalk Wholesale, who are unlikely to want to deal with VM, or BT Wholesale.

Both are expensive per Mbit/s.

VM's cable network usage is running at about twice the average BT Wholesale punter. No way they could pay the bills with that level of usage on an off-net product.

IPTV does work but you need a CPE that support multicast and if you're paying BT Wholesale you have to pay extra per stream to them. When you think about how many channels VM may want to throw down it gets a bit... ugh.

Really not worth it. Covering 70% of the country profitably way better than 90% with the last 20% being a pain in the arse.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

BT have plenty of fibre running from telephone poles.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Not really.

I'm not 100% on the BT network I'll admit but I do not believe they have much in the way of aerial fibre.

The last drop is still twisted pair UG or from poles, and I'm pretty certain they don't have trunk/core fibre on poles.

Unless you can show me examples of where they do?

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

About 100,000 homes passed at most out of over 25.5 million active lines are fibre on poles.

The core network fibre and fibre feeding the cabinets is all underground.

BT have, in total, about 160,000 premises with fibre to the home/premises available to them.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

They don't have to pay either TalkTalk or BT Wholesale, after all, the point of putting their own equipment in exchanges was to bypass exactly that. Vodafone are doing the same now, going straight to the Openreach handover point so they can deliver IPTV have to pay BT Wholesale zilch. You'd still have to pay OR line rental but as that's just a dumb ethernet pipe VM wouldn't have to pay BT for any for multicast or data usage.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Yeah I didn't give a figure! Of course I know about the underground network, I work on it! I just used the vague term "plenty" which is correct. I come across a fair bit of overhead fibre. I've seen a lot of mobile masts fed with overhead fibre, businesses too.

Why do you need examples?! You'll just have to trust me I'm afraid.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Just once, I'd love it if this forum didn't descend into an argument on semantics.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Vodafone bought Cable and Wireless. Cable and Wireless had a presence in 936 exchanges and have sold LLU wholesale to parties including Virgin.

Give the initial project was canned it's reasonable to assume another VM unbundling project isn't likely.

---------- Post added at 17:47 ---------- Previous post was at 17:44 ----------

Pretty sure you were responding to a comment that mentioned 'telegraph wires' though.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Yes, I know. But the fact that it was started at all in the first place, suggests someone at some point thought it was feasible.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Because I have a bullpoo radar that goes off every time I sense it.

I'm sensing it now.


But you can always prove me wrong, with "examples"

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

That's a strange reply, not quite sure what your problem is. Or why you think you know more than me about the network. But you've annoyed me now and I hate caving in to people like you but here's a mobile mast fed via overhead fibre

http://goo.gl/maps/5euH3

Here's another one:
http://goo.gl/maps/EN5LA

You can see the "caution overhead fibre" labels on the poles that feed them.

What on earth made you think they don't use overhead fibre to feed mobile masts? That Vodafone one next to the Shell garage I linked to has two overhead fibres to it. I have no idea why they didn't just run ducts to it. I can also show you a business park fed with overhead fibre? No doubt your bullpoo radar is going off about that also, cheeky effort.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

It would be nice..Beats me why everyone has to be so aggressive,argumentative and unable to agree to disagree.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

I agree. But it's also frustrating the way you have to provide proof everytime you say something. If you don't produce proof you are basically accused of lying. Aside from the fact it would be pretty bizarre for me to make up facts about overhead fibre! Who would someone even do that?

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

I don't have any problem, and I don't think I know more than you.

I just have a heathy scepticism on taking things at face face value, especially on a forum such as this, from people I do not know.

Sorry I annoyed you.

Those links to google maps, I went on street view and tbh i can't see any mobile masts of any type at either garage, sorry if I'm being blind.


I'm not being awkward I'm genuinely interested as it's not something you see usually.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

I couldn't work out how to link directly to the street view images from my iPhone but those links should get you close. If you have the Shell garage on your left the Vodafone mast is about 100 yards further down the road. The telephone poles in front of the Shell garage feed it with overhead fibre. You can see the little yellow warning stickers on the bottom of them. It goes overhead to be telephone pole next to the mast and then dives underground into a small BT pavement pit where it links into the cabinet for the mast.

In the other link the Vodafone mast is up on the hill next to the car dealership (in the car park). It is fed by overhead fibre which then goes underground briefly as it has to go under the old railway bridge. It then goes overhead again to a telephone pole that's actually in the car park of the car dealership where it then goes underground again to link into the mast's cabinet.

It's more common than you'd imagine. I feel if I was a mobile network I'd want to insist my masts were fed with purely underground fibre, a falling tree would knock the whole thing off.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

That's not even a Vodafone mast. It's a CTIL mast, built by O2.

That's not a Vodafone mast either. In fact, it's not even a mobile mast. It's a railway mast fed by underground fibre from the railway line.

All mobile networks are using Virgin Media feeds going forwards, not BT.

---------- Post added at 18:52 ---------- Previous post was at 18:41 ----------

Mine's starting to go off now too.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Not sure that's accurate. They have the EE contract alright, but O2 inked a new contract with BT in 2013 that's still ongoing and Vodafone going forward are using their ex-Cable and Wireless assets where possible. I have no idea about Three.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Not entirely accurate, no. But then, was I any less accurate than MrIca claiming a Network Rail GSM-R mast was a Vodafone mast with BT "fibre" telegraph wires? :p:

The EE deal is managed by MBNL and includes Three:

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news/in...with-MBNL.aspx

O2 do indeed have deals in place with both BT and VM. Both are for 10 years from 2013.

http://www.mobiletoday.co.uk/news/in...Media-bid.aspx

I forgot about Vodafone, indeed they're the odd ones out using their own ex-C&W network where available, but still sharing backhauls with O2 elsewhere.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Ah I give up with you lot!

Im pretty sure the one by Shell says Vodafone on the front of the cabinet! But who gives a crap if it's Vodafone or O2. Does it matter?! Jesus I'll drive up there tomorrow and have a closer look if you like?! You guys are infuriating!

As for your "all masts are fed by Virgin Media". No they bloody well aren't!

I really wish the mods would warn people like you about your behaviour. That mast by the dealership is Vodafone or O2, I even saw a planning application for it recently. Whether it is Vodafone, O2 or Network Rail the BT poles DEFINITELY feed it with fibre!

---------- Post added at 22:42 ---------- Previous post was at 22:33 ----------

http://www.wirral.gov.uk/planning/DC...ystemkey=91034

There's your so called a Network Rail mast qasdfdsaq. You're a know it all and you should apologise. Like the other guy did. What is it with you lot absolutely being determined to prove people wrong. You're trolls actually.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

If you had the slightest clue you would know the difference, which you clearly don't...

Would sure help if you didn't post inaccurate links and descriptions to start off with. Seeing as the first mast found in YOUR link in the car park YOU described is quite clearly a Network Rail mast:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.34...3tbm_-06HQ!2e0

The CTIL mast is further along, not in the car park, and practically invisible from Street View:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.34...IeejkRnEYA!2e0

The planning application you link to also clearly states the mast is connected to the national network via an underground link. Perhaps you should check your own information before calling others trolls.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

You are infuriating! You make a point of trying to catch people out! No wonder you've been banned by other forums! It IS connected via an underground cable into a BT joint box in the car park, the joint box is then fed via the overhead fibre cable. See the BT pole in the middle of the car park (it's not just there for a laugh!). It has a cable running down it into the joint box which then goes underground for about 20 metres and into the cabinet for the mast.

You are correct about the masts you are linking to, that one with the planning application is the one I'm referring to (it is at the very edge of the car park btw, look at the planning application there's a bloody car parked next to it in one of the photos!), whether it is in the car park or just a metre off the property is a very minor detail but you do seem to absolutely obsess over those to catch people out.

I've never even noticed the Network Rail one you linked to. You ARE a troll I stand by that. Everything I have said about the overhead fibre cables is correct. I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Feel free to try and educate me on a network you clearly don't work on. Maybe you have more knowledge about mobile masts than me, but I was talking about the cables feeding them.

Ask yourself this, why on earth would I make this up? I'd clearly be strange if I went on a forum and started prattling on about overhead fibre cables if I didn't know that's what they were. It'd be a very odd thing to lie about! Before accusing someone of making something up you should ask why they might make it up.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Funny how you make that up, while ranting about not making things up.

Fair dos.
Please re-read my post once you've calmed down.
Fair dos.
If you say so.
I think you're doing that well enough yourself, thanks. You seem to be learning quite a lot every time you change your story.

P.S. If you're so confident about your own knowledge, how come you get so agitated when you get caught out? Because that's three different people you've had a problem with now in one thread.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

I've not changed my story though! I've added much more detail, I had to describe everything in boring minuscule detail because you accused me of making it all up! I'm sure the other people in this thread didn't want or need me to go into so much detail but you forced it when you started trying to prove me wrong.

You are obsessing about things like who the mast belongs to, but that's not really relevant to my point. I've already explained I had trouble with the Google Streetview links. I provided two links which I thought would show what I was seeing on my iPhone, unfortunately not, so I had to try and describe where the masts were.

There was then a bit of confusion about the second one because you spotted a Network Rail mast which I've never noticed. Fair enough, but I wasn't wrong in what I originally put.

Both masts are technically fed underground but only the last 10-20 metres, after the initial overhead spans. The fibre cable has to go underground for the last section, how would it get into the cabinet otherwise?

The other person in the thread I had a run in with was also implying I was making this up. Hopefully I've now explained enough about how those masts are fed that everyone can see that they are mostly fed via overhead fibre. Just thought it was interesting that's all, it's not worth you picking holes in every tiny point, it doesn't make for a nice forum.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Got a chance to drive past this mast today by the Shell garage. Oddly enough there's a Vodafone sticker on the cabinet.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Not odd at all, like I said it's a CTIL mast built by O2.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

I can't help but think you're being deliberately obscure.

The slightly more informative version of that post might be something along the lines of, "That mast belongs to Cornerstone Telecommunications Infrastructure Ltd, which is a joint venture between Vodafone and O2."

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Given the user's moaned about two other members already and even tried to challenge the fact MBNL exists in the face of the networks' own press releases, it's hard to see why I should bother.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Come on man behave yourself! ;) You're just being deliberately pedantic!

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Says the guy again trying to bring up an argument he lost three weeks ago...

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

Are you talking about me there? When did I challenge the fact than MBNL exists?

Haha. Well you would say that! But I think you lost that argument 3 weeks ago and plenty agree if I take a look at my PMs.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

... And blocked.

Re: Will virgin tap into bt?
 

He's a strange character. People can make their own minds up anyway.