VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

The three networks have argued that opening up their networks to rivals will increase costs, hinder investment and reduce quality.
Hinder investment - new regulations could reduce the return on existing investments and therefore deter future investments.
Reduce quality - multiple operators tampering with equipment will increase faults.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d03235aa-d...#axzz3VntuBCj0

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

You have to pay to read the article

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Yes. My summary is pretty much what the article says, it's more a news flash than in-depth analysis, the interesting point being the collaboration between VM and BT on this point of mutual interest.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Why are you assuming that I didn't try to find another link? I did. ;) The info is an FT news flash and I've summarised it on your website and doubtless other organisations will do the same in due course. There's not much apart from what I posted at the moment.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Some of the arguments for opening the network can be found here and here

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

So what does everyone here think? Good idea or bad idea?

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Neither of those refer to the actual issue in the article, dark fibre access, they refer to a full structural separation of Openreach from the rest of the group?

---------- Post added at 09:59 ---------- Previous post was at 09:46 ----------

I am very much not in favour of TalkTalk and Sky receiving any kind of access to dark fibre unless it's done very carefully.

They have been awful for the broadband market from my point of view, treating broadband as a freebie or as a retention tool and driving down quality in the case of TalkTalk while feeding the idea that good broadband should cost nothing by subsidising it senseless out of the TV business in the case of Sky.

They are also both slowing the replacement of BT's ageing copper network by clinging on for all they are worth to their own LLU infrastructure. They are far more addicted to copper than BT are, their entire business models depend on it.

Regarding the point made in the post above yours I am entirely in favour of separation of BT however not in the manner that TalkTalk and Sky want, in the hope they'll get at BT's infrastructure on the cheap. I would like to see BT granted the merger of their Wholesale and Openreach operations, as they requested, and for their acquisition of EE to complete unimpeded, however at the cost to them of separating off the rest.

Hence the 'BT Group', currently Global Services, Consumer, Business, Wholesale and Openreach, ends up being split into the merged Wholesale/Openreach entity, with Consumer, Business, Global Services and Mobile/EE entirely separate.

An extra sweetener to come in the form that if BT want to retire copper they may do so. LLU operators will be provided a 'virtual' unbundled solution and can take traffic from BT at the exchange, various national 'metro' handover points, or pay for a full Wholesale solution much as they do now with the current LLU, WBC, and WBMC products.

Sky and TalkTalk would of course jump up and down at this as their ADSL equipment becomes obsolete but times are changing.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

I think I'm largely in agreement with you, Igni. My only point of view that differs is on a lot of BT's network that was subsidised with taxpayer money, however OFCOM already regulates a lot of this so I'm not sure more needs to be opened.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Agreed. The trouble is that both of them have modelled their business on buying the bare minimum of infrastructure. Sky have repeatedly moaned they don't have access to Virgin's cable network, but VM (and the cable cos before it) have spent billions building that network, why *should* they open it up? If Murdoch wanted Sky to have access to Cable TV enough he has the resources to enable Sky to build their own network. They didn't. They spent some money on Satellite facilities, then rented space on a satellite. While Sky will have spent a lot of money on their infrastructure, I'll lay odds it's nowhere near what even Virgin Media have spent, not including what NTL, Telewest and the other cable companies spent.


Do I agree that the existing broadband companies should be required to open their networks even more. No. I don't. It will drive prices down, which is good in the short term for the consumer. It is not, however, good for the ISPs and therefore not good for the consumer in the long term as the ISPs will be forced to cut back investment on infrastructure. Something that while it won't affect headline speeds (because these are a selling point) will affect both reliability and contention on the networks, neither of which are selling points, so while the ISPs have to upgrade their networks to cope with new speeds, there will be nothing stopping them bunging as many customers on the network as possible.

---------- Post added at 12:22 ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 ----------

I'm in two minds about that. I know that BT have replaced a lot of the network since privatisation, but how much does the central infrastructure cost compared to the sheer number of phone lines that were installed before privatisation? Bear in mind that there are millions of them, and in most cases, I suspect the line from the exchange to the premises has not been replaced since privatisation.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

How many FTTC customers choose BT over all the rest of the ISP's ?

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

The last figures I saw put BT Group's market share at more than 2/3rds of the FTTC customer base.

This is, to be fair, in no small part due to the lackadaisical efforts of TalkTalk and Sky, both of whom were until very recently far more concerned with milking the copper to the exchange than trying to sell FTTC.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

As of Feb 2015

BT had over 7.5 million broadband customers with over 2.7 million taking Fibre

The other big ISP's on the Openreach Network , Sky , Talk Talk and EE have over 10 million subscribers yet only around a million take fibre despite all of them actively advertising promotions through their websites , TV and mailings.

Any idea why that is ?

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Sky and TalkTalk have only relatively recently begun pushing the FTTC solutions, preferring to relentlessly milk copper all the way to the exchange to make the most of the equipment they have in BT exchanges.

They can't deliver FTTC for free alongside a phone/TV package and they've managed to condition their customers into thinking that 'broadband' should be either free or cost next to nothing.

BT pushed FTTC hard early on and gained nearly all the sign ups, and their brand Plusnet are essentially delivering FTTC without the added cost of BT Sport so are the 'budget' BT brand.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Hardly Sky Fibre has been advertised on TV , Online and mailings for ages now , its also been discounted for 6 months and at one point 12 months.

Do they make more money from customers on their LLU connections ?

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

18month contract though, where the adsl was free for 12months* and a 12 month contract

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Agreed but that's pretty much the same with many other providers certainly is with BT and Talk Talk.

Sky wrote to me numerous times offering me deals to upgrade to fibre when I had their BB.

In my opinion the fibre market needs some changes not sure what exactly though , its currently not working in favour of the customer.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

I wouldnt want to sign up to fibre cheap for 6 months then get shafted for another 12

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Thats the same with every provider VM , Sky , Talk Talk and Plusnet all offer these kind of discounts. Loyalty doesn't pay anymore.

Generally the loyal ones pay the discounts for those who are sensible enough to swap and change whether we like it or not.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

I said 'relatively' recently.

Delivering LLU broadband costs Sky and TalkTalk very little. They pay BT the same amount for the MPF line rental regardless of whether a customer is on FTTC or ADSL and connect the customer to the same equipment on their side. The only incremental cost supplying a customer ADSL over just a phone line for them is bandwidth and their charging way more for line rental than Openreach charge them covers that.

Sky and TalkTalk have both really wanted to be able to logically unbundle ports in BT's cabinets. They have now gotten their heads around that that isn't going to happen and the best they'll get is a VULA solution.

Sky's 80Mb product is still not available to order online, you have to call them.

http://www.sky.com/shop/broadband-talk/fibre-optic/

It's also £30 a month and requires line rental of £16.40. More expensive than either BT brand.

Their 38Mb unlimited product costs as much as Plusnet's 76Mb.

TalkTalk's customer base is largely people who want to spend as little as possible, so it's no great surprise their fibre take up so far hasn't been amazing.

---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:21 ----------

What in your opinion is wrong with it?

In my opinion things are too cheap, operators too addicted to copper, and it deters investment in genuinely next generation solutions.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Interesting that you fail to mention that BT are offering standard BB from £4.75 a month with free BT Sport and Plusnet are offering free standard unlimited BB for 12 months.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Both of whom also advertise their fibre products far more aggressively than their standard ADSL.

In addition neither of them buy from Openreach, the people who build and manage the fibre network so there're more regulations around what they are paying their providers.

I don't mention either of those two as the most direct comparison to Sky and TalkTalk, if we're talking about impact on infrastructure investment, is BT Wholesale who have to run on regulated pricing.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

The Plusnet website is plastered with its free standard BB offer for 12 months , they are promoting fibre no more or no less than Sky and Talk Talk.

I guess this is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

It's also plastered with references to cut-price fibre broadband and BT Sport.

Highlight their Packages list fibre is on the top - not surprising given their pretty unique offering of a 40Mb/20Mb deal.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/04/26.png

They're evidently doing something given they've more fibre subscribers than either TalkTalk or Sky despite those having a massively higher customer base as a whole.

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

The free plusnet broadband offer is for 18 months, again after 6 months your shafted with full price

Re: VM, BT and KCom write to Ofcom over broadband regulation
 

Its free for 12 months then £9.99 a month for the remaining 6 months.
And yet visiting the Plusnet homepage the first image your presented with is for free 12 months unlimited standard BB , its hidden behind that drop down menu in your screen grab.;)

They are even giving you £50 cash back.

I'm in agreement that Sky and Talk Talk are still advertising ADSL but so are its main competitors (VM being the exception.)