Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31580520

Just a week after announcing that young people (18 to 25) will have to work to get their Job Seekers Allowance it highlights the inequality over who is paying for austerity. There is one section of society that has been entirely ring-fenced from the cuts from triple-locked pensions, to not means-testing the benefits as above, to privileged savings rates under-writing from the Government. Meanwhile equivalent benefits have been either completely taken away from the young or subjected to many conditions.

I think it's hard to take the Tories seriously when they talk about the need for austerity when they're protecting their biggest consistency from it's affects. How much moral authority do they have to make the case for it when they're put into power on the back of voters who are immune from it? It's not that I think these benefits should be taken away from the elderly either, they shouldn't, but they need to at least stop being so aggressive in cutting it for the young. Bring back EMA and travel passes for the under-20s. They too rarely earn enough to make these benefits trivial, means-test it if you have too.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

It's a fairly straightforward promise to make, given the potential cost of the means testing would make any saving negligible.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

And it's a pretty standard reply that would be given by all parties..If they said it first.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

That's true of a lot of these cuts though. The amounts are often quite minor in comparison to the overall budget. Most of it seems more about symbolism of doing something against profligate spending rather than a genuine attempt to cut the deficit.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Many a mickle makes a muckle as they say. Save a lot of little bits and then you have a big saving. By the same token make lots of small wasting decisions and suddenly there's a huge deficit.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

So you're happy that pensioners receive these benefits but unhappy that younger people don't get enough in benefits?

The juxtaposition seems irrelevant unless you feel the Cons are robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

I am unhappy that the unequal application of benefit cuts to disproportionately target the young.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

But the young are in a better position to improve themselves and their income. Pensioners have just what they have and are unlikely to be able supplement their income from a job even part time.

They as a group are also less likely to claim benefits they are entitled to if they were means tested.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

EMA is available in the UK where respective Governments have made it a priority from their slice of the pie.

Travel passes - buy a bike, you're young. :D.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Why should pensioners be means tested? They paid into the pot all their lives on the understanding that they would get X amount paid back to them when they retired. It would be unfair to now move the goalposts.
Young people on the other hand, haven't been promised the whole 'cradle to grave' thing :shrug:

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

It all boils down to one simple fact.

The over 65s vote.

The under 25s don't.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

So true.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Iirc the saving from scrapping housing benefit for under 25's wasn't huge in context and the bedroom tax saving were swallowed up by presumably related fraud and error in the housing benefit system going up three times, negligible savings or costs didn't matter then so why doesn't Dave just tell the truth about why he is terrified of upsetting the old folk.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Well, Dave might believe that pensioners deserve their benefits and/or that if a section of the electorate can't be bothered to participate, then they get what they are given.

Perhaps the penny will drop with young people that now they are out of nappies they have responsibilities to fulfil.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Most pensioners do deserve their benefits but to universally give a benefit when it is not needed is a simple way to reduce the bill a bit and would make the changes to the system look fairer even if they weren't. There is a sizeable group of pensioners that do not need the pension they get from the state and wouldn't even miss it if it were gone how can it be right when we're constantly told we need to keep hitting some groups but not others. If the system cannot be universally fair then it needs to be properly reformed this is just the conservative version of using the system for their own ends the very thing that has created the problem in the first place

This whole "welfare reform" act the tories and disgustingly the lib dems have been selling the last five years is a joke it was cost cutting on the most vulnerable and weakest groups in our society and by and large the public have said and done nothing to stop it in fact they got behind it. Safety nets are there not for the planned way you think your life will go but for those times when unplanned disaster strikes and as a so called developed nation we shoud have one but it needs to better then it is and less widely used as it is.

No reasonable person in the UK argues the benefits system is not fulfiling the role it was intended or that for a small number has become a choice rather then the safety net it was always meant to be. But the system is what politicians have made it and as the years and parites have gone by they made changes to the system to better allow them too misuse it as they needed too and then pretend they will sort the problem out which none of them have either the intention or real will to do. We need reform and we need it badly but people have to take off the blinkers look into it and see a con job when it's happening and stop complaining that politicians treat us like idiots when we allow them to get away with it so much.

More people this year will have no party to vote for because they are all a gurgled mess in the centre ground they all spout the same populist rubbish to thier targeted demographic apart from ed milliband and while i never liked him or agree with much of what he says he has raised his head above the cosy little wall and said things that differentiate himself from the rest. This country is in a mess and none of them are interested in really sorting out many of the problems we have because they are not affected by it directly and their own vested interests do not rely on it so no solutions just more hot air for the foreseeable future.

How long will it take the public to stop letting these crooks at westminster play us off against each other and start actually demanding they become the public servants they are supposed to be rather then a bunch of trough swillers looking after themselves and thier friends sometimes we really are more idiotic then they even think.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

not to worry by the time you get to my age you'll have a different opinion

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

This.

Now the under 25s, indeed many under 35s and some over that, need to stop complaining and get working to pay their boomer landlords' buy-to-let mortgages, taxes for retiree welfare and healthcare, and more for goods and services to help plug deficits in pension schemes they couldn't dream of being members of.

---------- Post added at 18:54 ---------- Previous post was at 18:53 ----------

Hopefully he will have more empathy and integrity than that.

---------- Post added at 18:56 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------

There's a total welfare spending cap, which excludes pensions and some unemployment benefits, so some element of robbing Peter to pay Paul with the rest is certainly going to happen.

---------- Post added at 18:58 ---------- Previous post was at 18:56 ----------

Fixed that for you Damien. ;)

---------- Post added at 19:04 ---------- Previous post was at 18:58 ----------

So you'd be against, say, the pension age going up for example, or indeed any kind of welfare cuts?

I mean if it's unfair to move the goal posts for one group surely it's only reasonable that it's unfair to move them for any others? We've all been promised things by politicians after all, then either they haven't delivered them or a subsequent government have taken them away.

There is zero moral case to be made for treating any age groups differently. The manner in which the coalition have conducted themselves is purely about cynical politics - pensioners vote in large numbers and overwhelmingly vote Tory.

This is a problem for the young - they need to vote or they'll get trodden on.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Now let me think.....what simple but effective remedy can there be to this quandary?

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Lets ask Russell Brand...

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Young people don't vote absolutely right and why don't they it's a real puzzle isn't it I mean we have such a good political system and such good people as politicians not as though politics is tainted in anyway with many not just the young feeling disenfranchised and that there is no one deserving of their vote. The problem of young people not voting like many issues is not new and also like many other issues politicians won't resolve it because they have no gaurantee it will benefit them.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Call me old fashioned but a political system tainted by a few is still better than anarchy. I think young people should be encouraged to participate in shaping their future; there has, after all, been bleaker times.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Put yourself in the position of the 18-25 age group right now they are going to be working longer then any previous generation little to no job security and wages not guaranteed and the only time politicians mention you is when they are slamming you not much incentive to engage is it. I'm not gonna be around to claim a pension but worry for my kids and the sort of country they will be adults in and bring children into and the truth is this country is becoming an unpleasant place to be if your not at the top. No one is expecting or asking for an easy ride just the same ride as their parents and grandparents but will be paying for the mistakes and selfishness of previous generations all the time being lectured.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

The problem is that young people have been told that the way to change anything is to whinge about it on the internet rather than actually doing something productive about their situation.

Having no one to vote for is no excuse. There are probably enough willing, passionate youngsters to stand in a fair number of seats on councils and as MPs. Instead, they've gone for the "feck 'em all" attitude because no party wants to give them everything on a plate.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

This.

Missus is subscribed to 38 Degrees, a petitioning website, and she gets pompous emails from them at least twice a week, pushing their latest cause célèbre, always filled with self-important lines like "it's vital that 38 degrees members act now ...". Of course "acting" essentially comes down to sticking their names and email addresses on yet another petition. And as the Internet has made mega-petitions easier to compile, so the attention threshold whenever a petition is presented to el gov gets higher and higher.

We saw something of this in Scotland last year. The not inconsiderable movement of twentysomethings who were such a visible part of the Yes campaign seemed genuinely to think that they were entitled to win it, just because their social media campaign was so visible and so noisy. Many of them seemed genuinely astounded when the result was No. It was as if they had no idea that there are large numbers of people who don't bang on on social media, but who quietly come out and vote when asked.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

That's pretty much it Chris. I can see how youngsters are annoyed, the promised cushy jobs after three years dossing about on a meeja studies/aromatherapy degree haven't materialised, and they're looking for someone to blame. However, sharing facebook pictures isn't really going to do anything to change that.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Both Chris and rhyds make good points RizzyKing but I do understand your natural concern for your children. Kids are more resilient that you think; although their 'lot' is different to ours it does not mean they are doomed. Remember too they have things that we covet - energy, imagination, youth....I'm already starting to feel poorer than them!

For their sake (and yours!) focus on the good things we have in the UK such as health care, freedom and supportive parents. The World is full of kids who don't have any of that.

We don't know what the future holds but I'm sure your kids could be part of the solution not part of the problem but it is up to them.

Sorry, I seem to be suffering from a cliché day :dozey:.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Wonder what they did before that, back before there were no cushy jobs after three years dossing on a crap degree taken at the insistance of Tony Blair and there was no Facebook or whatever to complain on.

This is hardly a new phenomenon.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/02/2.png

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

If you don't believe or have faith in a system your not going to take part in it and as for being candidates themselves as independents they would lose their deposits due in no small part to the attitudes towards them seen on here. They are not going to join mainstream parties because of the disenfranchisement they feel catch 22 for many of them and if they did stand on their own and knocked on the doors of some you it wouldn't be a case of you thinking "good for them trying to improve things" it's more likely to be "this kid is trying to tell me".

We seem to have a situation in the UK right now of if you've made it to a certain social point or have passed a certain age pull up the ladder and sod the rest. Yes people have worked hard mainly to get where they are but factors were in play in the past that are not now it's a different more difficult world for the kids coming up. The decline in society and it's attitudes are there and getting worse fed and encouraged by our current bunch of politicians and the system they have created which is only interested in getting sections of society attacking each other while they look after themselves.

Is it really so bad to expect and want better from the politicians for them to actually do what is best for the country and its people and when did we the public start to let them get away with doing anything less seems to me some people are more interested in defending the system they believe has benefitted them then demanding that it, us and society get better not just fiscally solvent. Oh and my kids being part of the solution rather then the problem they would but are generally too tired after all of them working 50+ hours a week.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

You're entitled to a good old moan as are we all. But what is to be done then? I can't imagine a super rich benefactor coming to the rescue and would that be the answer anyway?

Who knows - perhaps a life without the burden of property and material goods will be more fulfilling? Perhaps kids don't want the commitment that we define as desirable.

With respect, you're pretty adept at identifying the negative, what can be done positively to redress the balance? If you want to change the system it's no good rejecting and ignoring it.

I do empathise with some of what you say but it comes back to the people who want the change, making it happen.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Just as advisors to the Government predicted, these reforms have not only resulted in human misery as, for example, the eviction of disabled people from their (often adapted for them at public expense) homes gathers pace- but their welfare reforms actually cost more.

The first Welsh eviction of a woman (who has had two spinal prolapses and suffers from sciatica of the leg) looks immediately imminent. After starting to pay off her arrears by cutting down on food and turning down her heating, she has been told to pay the remaining £720 or get out.

How on earth has this been allowed to happen?

https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/02/...a-penny-saved/

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

What can we do is easy don't vote if 95% of the UK electorate didnt vote do you honestly think things could continue as they have of course not our politicians are too fond of talking about democracy to be able to ignore that level of public discontent. Votes are important but you don't have to cast one for it to be important and if as you'd have us believe there is empathy in sections then even better because they don't have to do a thing to initiate change. Yes it would cause very short term problems and for once in their career every politician would be rushing to resolve the issue as quickly as possible in order to retain the whole democratic thing they love waffling about. You asked i answered and unless your telling me that the political class could carry on regardless on a 5% turnout it is both a viable and practical way to send the message things need to change and actually get more then hot air done about it.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Just putting these out there, seems relevant.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/60d77d08-b...44feab7de.html

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/799c83e8-b...44feab7de.html

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

But not all the electorate feels the way you do so the Russell Brand don't vote solution won't work.

Can't read the links; a few words of summary would help.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Not this election probably not the one after Kursk but i think there will be dwindling turnouts going forward until things change and hopefully it will be a peaceful change although that will depend on how politicians handle things going forward. People can bang on about opportunities and hard work getting you what you want and in the past that was largely true but for the youth now it isnt true as most of them are good, decent people who are working hard and getting nowhere, still nevermind we can ignore it like so many other issues.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

A view we share. We never stop worrying....

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

You've only got to look at the number of young people sleeping rough to see the results of the cuts, its alright Dave saying they can go home to mum and dad, conveniently ignoring those that can't go home due to violent or abusive parents or those released from care, what are the supposed to do, I did hope some allowances or dispensation had been incorporated into the plan but given the numbers I see each night it would appear not.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

That's been the norm for all of human history apart from a few decades after the last war. We are looking at the situation the we and our parents/grandparents had and are thinking that's how it's always been and should be, but that's not true :shrug:

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

This of course begs the question of why it couldn't have stayed that way.

Shows in other metrics too.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ration-britain

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...02/1.png:large

More own outright than have mortgages, more privately rent than socially, on current trends by 2022 more will privately rent than have mortgages.

The property owning democracy at its finest.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

So, 14 million homes are owned or have a mortgage, and 8 million homes are rented....

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

I believe it's the trends that are more alarming. Fewer and fewer people are buying homes. Since about 2005 it looks as though in net terms no-one has come onto the ladder.

Although given our abysmal tenant protections it's pretty alarming in its own right that we have one of the lowest rates of home ownership in Europe now. Perhaps if landlord Tory MPs hadn't talked out some basic protections this'd be better.

2 million more privately renting, little change in social rent, over a million more owning outright, a million fewer mortgages outstanding.

Well played first and largely Labour whose economic model seemed to focus on house prices and banker fellation via badly set interest rates, misplaced taxation making BTL more attractive, and stubbornly refusing to build houses, then the coalition who made the right noises briefly then settled back into the old formula when they realised it wasn't politically expedient to fix things.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

I wonder what Natalie Bennett thinks about this 'housingy stuff' :erm:.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

Here as well: http://www.economist.com/news/leader...nd-poor-granny

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https://speye.wordpress.com/2015/02/...e-bedroom-tax/

Looks like pensioners will be subject to the Bedroom Tax if Cameron gets re-elected.

The latest eviction of a disabled woman is expected to take place in Wales by the end if this week. She tried to pay the accumulated arrears by cutting down on food and heating, but this wasn't good enough. She has been told to pay £720 or get out of her home (which, incidentally, had been especially adapted for her at taxpayer expense).

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

At the risk of being repetitive: Reducing someone's benefit entitlement, whatever the rights and wrongs of it, is not a 'tax'. It facilitates useful discussion if we deal with issues as they are, as opposed to how opposition politicians prefer us to see them.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

I can't find that story anywhere except the Morning Star (and blogs that quote the Morning Star), but I can't find anything about the house being adapted for her.

Do you have a link, please?

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

You're right. cutting someone's benefit is not a tax.

it's the paying of the bedroom tax that is the tax.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

It's like English, but without the meaning.....:D

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

It's what it has become generally known as, so it makes it easier for most people to refer to it as such. It's similar to the way that the Community Charge became better known as The Poll Tax and was referred to as this even by politicians, councils etc in the end.

Most people know nothing about the Governments decision to reclassify part of Housing Benefit as a Spare Room Subsidy. To those affected all they know and care about is that they are now being asked to pay something towards their rent out of money paid to them for other day to day living expenses.

Apart from the human misery it has caused, it costs more than the status quo and is wasting housing by leaving accomodation empty in some areas.

Re: Cameron: No means testing for pensioner benefits
 

The Community Charge *was* a tax. Big difference.