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-   -   April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33700091)

Ignitionnet 12-02-2015 07:16
April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Times - Paywalled

Quote:
Millions of houses would be “given away” to low-paid workers under Tory plans to reward people who come off benefits.

Iain Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, is pushing for a pledge to “gift” tenants their council home after a year in work to be included in the Tory manifesto.

Such tenants would cease to be eligible for housing benefit and would have to pay 35 per cent of the sale proceeds in tax if they sold their property within three years, according to one model under discussion. In later years, the amount of tax paid would fall.

All money raised would be ploughed back into the housing market. Proponents argue that the saving in housing benefit and the sales tax receipts, boosted by house inflation, would almost outweigh the cost.

The plan is one of several being considered by senior Tory strategists looking for an “eye-catching” proposal to appeal to working-class voters who might otherwise be tempted to switch to Ukip. They also want to boost home ownership and reward those in work.

If many of the 4.5 million existing social homes were transferred to tenants, the scale of home ownership among poorer groups could be transformed in a matter of years.

Housing associations — private, non profit-making organisations that provide low-cost social housing — would lose a huge chunk of income under the giveaway scheme. They dismissed it as “bonkers”.

David Orr, chief executive of the National Housing Federation, said: “You can’t just give away homes without it costing a huge amount of money. It makes no sense at all.” He said that housing associations were collectively borrowing £50 billion to build homes and would be unable to pay back their debts if the policy were pursued.

Another idea being floated is to extend the Right to Buy programme to the 2.5 million homes owned by housing associations.

Mr Duncan Smith has been pushing for the Right to Buy scheme — which gives homebuyers generous discounts of up to £100,000 — to be extended. It is confined to two million houses owned by councils.
Can't wait to see what my bribe to vote Conservative will be!

Sirius 12-02-2015 07:37
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35758793)
Times - Paywalled



Can't wait to see what my bribe to vote Conservative will be!
Well i know one of mine.

I am 55 in April and i have 4 private pensions plus my Army pension. My Army pension will start paying out in full from April, 2 of my pensions i will keep putting money into until i retire. The other 2 of them i will call on as lump sums in April and i can go buy a Lamborghini and pay off my mortgage. :)

alanbjames 12-02-2015 07:39
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
All good for giving them a council house but how would so called low paid workers be able to afford to keep it?

They would still have to pay council tax and other bills and maintenence on the property. What will happen is that there will be a huge amount of evictions taking place which then would put a huge amount of pressure again on social housing.

Ignitionnet 12-02-2015 08:38
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
They will have no mortgage or rent to pay. How are they going to be evicted when they have no mortgage or rent?

Tax credits would top up their income. If they were unable to pay basic bills before not having to pay anything towards rent they would be really stuffed now.

You think it's 'all good' to give social housing stock away for free, but are worried about pressure on social housing.

Priceless.

Gary L 12-02-2015 08:39
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Just remember what your Grandad told you. never vote for Conservatives. all they care about is the rich. and will say whatever it takes to stay in power. and then tell you it was all a bluff after they tricked you into voting for them.

don't let Grandad down.

Taf 12-02-2015 10:02
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Council houses given away. They must realise that maintenance costs are going to rise above rental incomes, so best to dump them now and put costs on the new owners. Hmmm.. the same as water, gas, electricity and phones services a few years ago....


Meanwhile in Wales even Right To Buy is being stopped, after having a menial discount compared to England (after they had been "revalued" by around 400%).

tweetiepooh 12-02-2015 11:12
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
I remember what my dad tells me that Labour only care about themselves and will do and say whatever it takes to remain in power. And if you disagree they'll call a strike and no-one can work but it's not their fault.

There is a difference between what you can sell a house for and what it costs. Look at your insurance, rebuild value is usually well below sale value. So while it seems that they are giving away a £120k house, all they are really giving is £50k (made up figures). If the recipient sells in those early years the tax is £37k so £13k short, plus reduction in benefits and costs on the property. This assumes no price rises in housing. Current values are 10% (England) so in 3 years the house could be worth in excess of £150k -> £47k tax.

TheDaddy 12-02-2015 12:04
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 35758799)
All good for giving them a council house but how would so called low paid workers be able to afford to keep it?

They would still have to pay council tax and other bills and maintenence on the property. What will happen is that there will be a huge amount of evictions taking place which then would put a huge amount of pressure again on social housing.
That's what happened in the eighties give away

Paul 12-02-2015 13:44
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 35758826)
Look at your insurance, rebuild value is usually well below sale value.
Huh ? Not for my house, its the other way round.

Ignitionnet 12-02-2015 13:54
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 35758826)
I remember what my dad tells me that Labour only care about themselves and will do and say whatever it takes to remain in power. And if you disagree they'll call a strike and no-one can work but it's not their fault.

There is a difference between what you can sell a house for and what it costs. Look at your insurance, rebuild value is usually well below sale value. So while it seems that they are giving away a £120k house, all they are really giving is £50k (made up figures). If the recipient sells in those early years the tax is £37k so £13k short, plus reduction in benefits and costs on the property. This assumes no price rises in housing. Current values are 10% (England) so in 3 years the house could be worth in excess of £150k -> £47k tax.
The land the property is built on isn't free, which explains the difference. As a general rule houses come with the freehold for the land, flats the leasehold unless a group come together to purchase the freehold for the entire complex.

Both of these have value, both make up the difference between rebuild cost and sale cost, and either would be included in the sale, hence what is given away is open market sale cost.

Either way it's incredibly stupid and will ram the housing benefit bill up the backside as it further depletes social housing by shifting more stock to the private rental sector. It happened with right to buy, it would happen with this.

If you gave me a council house for free the first thing I'd do is remortgage it and use the proceeds to buy a smaller buy-to-let property, or use the equity as deposit on a private purchase home and rent the ex-council property on the private market.

nashville 12-02-2015 15:00
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 35758799)
All good for giving them a council house but how would so called low paid workers be able to afford to keep it?

They would still have to pay council tax and other bills and maintenence on the property. What will happen is that there will be a huge amount of evictions taking place which then would put a huge amount of pressure again on social housing.
Well said ;)

Sirius 12-02-2015 15:04
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweetiepooh (Post 35758826)
I remember what my dad tells me that Labour only care about themselves and will do and say whatever it takes to remain in power. And if you disagree they'll call a strike and no-one can work but it's not their fault.
My Dad said something similar. :tu:

---------- Post added at 16:04 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 35758799)

They would still have to pay council tax and other bills and maintenence on the property.
That's why both myself and my wife WORK all hours so we can look after our family and our house, i don't get a penny in help from the Government and never have :rolleyes:

Damien 12-02-2015 17:33
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35758798)
Well i know one of mine.

I am 55 in April and i have 4 private pensions plus my Army pension. My Army pension will start paying out in full from April, 2 of my pensions i will keep putting money into until i retire. The other 2 of them i will call on as lump sums in April and i can go buy a Lamborghini and pay off my mortgage. :)
Not really a bribe as such however. That's your own money.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35758879)

That's why both myself and my wife WORK all hours so we can look after our family and our house, i don't get a penny in help from the Government and never have :rolleyes:
Education, NHS, roads, police etc. Most of us will receive more from the Government than we paid in. Especially if we live long enough to receive a few years of the state pension. Pensions in fact account for more than out of work or disability benefits as does education and the NHS. It's just that everyone expects, rightly, to have a decent state pension, healthcare and education so it's less popular to view those as Government handouts and instead we call them entitlements that we've paid for (even though most of us haven't).

Escapee 12-02-2015 21:20
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35758912)
Not really a bribe as such however. That's your own money.



Education, NHS, roads, police etc. Most of us will receive more from the Government than we paid in. Especially if we live long enough to receive a few years of the state pension. Pensions in fact account for more than out of work or disability benefits as does education and the NHS. It's just that everyone expects, rightly, to have a decent state pension, healthcare and education so it's less popular to view those as Government handouts and instead we call them entitlements that we've paid for (even though most of us haven't).
Not true in all cases, since leaving school at 16 I have not received any free education, have not been in hospital, I pay road tax on more than one vehicle, my council tax funds the police and I have had a private pension since the age of 20, and I'm paying in the maximum amount I can. I don't consider myself to be that well paid, but I have spent the last 15 years either close to or in the 40% tax bracket, my earnings over my 32 year working life has exceeded £600k so the tax I have paid must be approaching £200k, so it will be more than a few years of pension before I have taken out more than I have put in:erm:

RizzyKing 14-02-2015 03:19
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
This is a real IDS idea short term populism medium to long term high cost on an already inflated housing sector and after only one year seriously the man is a complete part and the sooner he's gone the better. Sadly there is little to no alternative :(.

alanbjames 14-02-2015 05:59
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35758879)
My Dad said something similar. :tu:

---------- Post added at 16:04 ---------- Previous post was at 16:02 ----------



That's why both myself and my wife WORK all hours so we can look after our family and our house, i don't get a penny in help from the Government and never have :rolleyes:
Sirus i worked for over 40 years and its only since last summer is the first time ever for me to claim anything from the government in the way of benefits.

Last summer i had a stroke and just before Christmas a smaller stroke. I am unable to drive so my job went out the window and im 2 years from retiring.

I am unable to walk because the stroke has affected my right side of my body, i can no longer hold a pen, my son has to shave me because i no longer have good hand to eye coordination + i get spasms in my right arm and while holding a razor its not a good idea.

Some of the posts in the past on here when i have said i have bought something new have been downright discusting because im on benefit now.

Sirius 14-02-2015 06:50
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanbjames (Post 35759207)
Sirus i worked for over 40 years and its only since last summer is the first time ever for me to claim anything from the government in the way of benefits.

Last summer i had a stroke and just before Christmas a smaller stroke. I am unable to drive so my job went out the window and im 2 years from retiring.

I am unable to walk because the stroke has affected my right side of my body, i can no longer hold a pen, my son has to shave me because i no longer have good hand to eye coordination + i get spasms in my right arm and while holding a razor its not a good idea.

Some of the posts in the past on here when i have said i have bought something new have been downright discusting because im on benefit now.
My post was not aimed at you personally. I lost my father to a stroke so i know how it is affecting you.

The benefits system is designed for those in your position, you have worked all your life and now you need that support from the benefits system. Sadly there are those in this country who think the benefits system is there pay check for life and have never worked and have no intention of ever working.

Osem 14-02-2015 09:15
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 35758959)
Not true in all cases, since leaving school at 16 I have not received any free education, have not been in hospital, I pay road tax on more than one vehicle, my council tax funds the police and I have had a private pension since the age of 20, and I'm paying in the maximum amount I can. I don't consider myself to be that well paid, but I have spent the last 15 years either close to or in the 40% tax bracket, my earnings over my 32 year working life has exceeded £600k so the tax I have paid must be approaching £200k, so it will be more than a few years of pension before I have taken out more than I have put in:erm:
:tu:

Damien 14-02-2015 15:19
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Escapee (Post 35758959)
Not true in all cases, since leaving school at 16 I have not received any free education, have not been in hospital, I pay road tax on more than one vehicle, my council tax funds the police and I have had a private pension since the age of 20, and I'm paying in the maximum amount I can. I don't consider myself to be that well paid, but I have spent the last 15 years either close to or in the 40% tax bracket, my earnings over my 32 year working life has exceeded £600k so the tax I have paid must be approaching £200k, so it will be more than a few years of pension before I have taken out more than I have put in:erm:
Nope not true in all cases. As I mentioned there are a few contributors to the state but most of us are not among them. After all we're also running a deficit.

If you look at the average person then they'll have the cost of education to 16, around 12 years of free education. Then the state pension until they die. That's if they never use NHS services and never receive any state benefits (outside of the pension).

I tried to look up what the cost of schooling for an average person is but it's quite hard as it varies a lot. Still it appears it costs, on average, around £4,284 for each pupil per year in a primary school and they're there for about 6 years. So about £25,700 for that. Secondary schools, on average, is around £5,200 a year for 5 years so £26,000. The average cost to bring a child though the basic education system in the UK is £51,700. That excludes the two years of college.

As for a pension then if you were to receive it at 67 and live until the average life expectancy of the UK (81) then at £113 a week you would receive around £82,200.

It's too hard to work out these numbers for any specific individual as inflation, where and when they went to school, how long they'll live, what services they've used, what they've paid in etc is all too complicated to work out.

Still you can see how easy it is to be a net recipient from the state. There we can easily run up costs well in excess of £100,000 from only the state pension and education. You estimate to have paid over £200,000 from taxes but to be near the 40% mark you're some way above the average national wage (£26,500). I would also say the average person will use the NHS at some point at which time costs are also incurred.

I should point out I am not saying there is anything wrong with being in this situation. Most of us are. It's just worth remembering that when people say they've paid in and never get anything out then most of them are wrong. There aren't many people in the UK who can genuinely claim they're subsidising other people via the tax and benefit system. Also remember the biggest budget items are the NHS, Education and pensions. As an example the NHS is £97 billion a year, Pensions £74 billion a year, Education is £51 billion a year whilst Jobseekers allowance is £5 billion a year. Even the cost of debt interest is £48 billion year.

I should also point out that it's gets more complicated when you factor in VAT, working which can help increase GDP and generate more wealth etc.

richard s 14-02-2015 19:07
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 35759202)
This is a real IDS idea short term populism medium to long term high cost on an already inflated housing sector and after only one year seriously the man is a complete part and the sooner he's gone the better. Sadly there is little to no alternative :(.
Here here... well said.

Escapee 19-02-2015 15:43
Re: April 1st already? Get a free council house for coming off benefits
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35759307)
Nope not true in all cases. As I mentioned there are a few contributors to the state but most of us are not among them. After all we're also running a deficit.

If you look at the average person then they'll have the cost of education to 16, around 12 years of free education. Then the state pension until they die. That's if they never use NHS services and never receive any state benefits (outside of the pension).

I tried to look up what the cost of schooling for an average person is but it's quite hard as it varies a lot. Still it appears it costs, on average, around £4,284 for each pupil per year in a primary school and they're there for about 6 years. So about £25,700 for that. Secondary schools, on average, is around £5,200 a year for 5 years so £26,000. The average cost to bring a child though the basic education system in the UK is £51,700. That excludes the two years of college.

As for a pension then if you were to receive it at 67 and live until the average life expectancy of the UK (81) then at £113 a week you would receive around £82,200.

It's too hard to work out these numbers for any specific individual as inflation, where and when they went to school, how long they'll live, what services they've used, what they've paid in etc is all too complicated to work out.

Still you can see how easy it is to be a net recipient from the state. There we can easily run up costs well in excess of £100,000 from only the state pension and education. You estimate to have paid over £200,000 from taxes but to be near the 40% mark you're some way above the average national wage (£26,500). I would also say the average person will use the NHS at some point at which time costs are also incurred.

I should point out I am not saying there is anything wrong with being in this situation. Most of us are. It's just worth remembering that when people say they've paid in and never get anything out then most of them are wrong. There aren't many people in the UK who can genuinely claim they're subsidising other people via the tax and benefit system. Also remember the biggest budget items are the NHS, Education and pensions. As an example the NHS is £97 billion a year, Pensions £74 billion a year, Education is £51 billion a year whilst Jobseekers allowance is £5 billion a year. Even the cost of debt interest is £48 billion year.

I should also point out that it's gets more complicated when you factor in VAT, working which can help increase GDP and generate more wealth etc.
As I have no children, have private health insurance and pay maximum into my pension scheme to be responsible for my future I think without even considering all the taxation I pay beside Tax and NI it will take many years of pension when I retire at 67 (If I can afford to) to refund what I have paid in. In comparison those career benefit claimants who have made no contributions and have no worries about funding their retirement.

The national average is a catch all meaningless figure ranging from minimum age workers to CEO's. I am earning well above the £26500 national average, when I started work in 1983 the national average was about £10000 and my wages were less than £2500. The interesting bit is that the current starting figure for recently qualified Engineering Graduates is about the same as the national average of £26500 and they usually get good wage rises for the three years on a graduate scheme.

Although graduates have higher qualifications, my 32 years experience means I am obviously earning considerably more than they are.


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