Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Well we have/had the bedroom tax, now we have housing benefit cuts for the young - we have 750,000 unemployed young people.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-10004709.html

Whats next!

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Perhaps they should get off their backsides and do the jobs that the eastern europeans are doing instead of expecting the state to provide all the time.

Benefits should be a safety net for the needy, not some top up so you can have the latest iphone as well.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

750,00 sitting on their backsides!

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

l see stereotyping everybody in a certain group has not gone away.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Stereotypes often have a basis in truth. Had those youngsters taken some of the millions of jobs, albeit low paid I accept, created over the last decade they would now be in a better position to provide for their own housing needs instead of expecting the state to subsidise it.

Far too many people have far too high an expectation of what they should be earning and the standard of accomodation that they want. There's nothing wrong with aspiring to own your own place but at the bottom rung you have to accept that you will have to remain with your parents, share with others or even stay in a caravan on site. The immigrants are happy to do so.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

A very good reason to curtail it and expect people to live within their means. If that is sharing so be it.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Share with who exactly? Would you willing to have people move into your house?

---------- Post added at 10:34 ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 ----------

Housing benefit isn't just paid for single occupancy accommodation it also applies to bedsits and shared housing.

So to assume that everyone on it is living in a nice happy one bed flat is very very wrong.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I can see a generation growing up despising all politicians - and the politicians want more young peoples votes.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

If that was what was needed to stay here then yes. People used to take in lodgers to help pay the rent long before the state started its largesse




I'm not, what I AM saying is that expecting ANY state aid for your housing needs is wrong unless there is no way, say for medical reasons, that you can work.

If your pay doesn't meet up with your expectations of lifestyle then get a better job, get more qualifications to help you get a better job. Just don't expect the state to pick up the tab ALL the time.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes will all know that, get a better job with more pay....

Will we have more young people living rough...

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Not if they show some drive and determination. I've known of people living in tents, caravans, wood lodges for a while, picking veg out in the fields until they can improve themselves. What is so wrong about people standing on their own two feet?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

What's so wrong about society helping people do that in the first place?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Expensive when there are so many other calls on the public finances such as the NHS.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Students have been doing it for decades. I really don't understand the sudden moral outrage over the idea of young people sharing a house.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I'm not saying sharing is bad in total, but even if you share a property you might need housing benefit in order to afford it.

Also the expectation for most students is that the shared accommodation is for a set period of time. Historically (and even till quite recently) the state of that shared accommodation has been below a standard most people paying privately would accept.

Students have also had state support in the from of grants or government backed loans

Quite a bit of which is never repaid http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-26688018



---------- Post added at 11:37 ---------- Previous post was at 11:31 ----------

So why is state support for students good but bad for those between 18 - 21 who may want to work?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

... none of which is in any way relevant. Students get maintenance support because following a course of study does not pay a wage. A job does pay a wage.

"State support" (within the bounds of what is affordable) for students who choose to study until the age of 21 is not controversial - any more than "state support" for those in further education between 16 and 18 would be.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes it does, but not always enough to cover all your living costs no matter the arrangments - even sharing.

The issue here is that the scrapping of HB for 18-21 is for everyone of that age, not those who aren't

The coalition already scrapped that http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17139135

Nothing wrong with helping people as long as they are willing to help themselves.
Generally the youth of today want it all without putting any effort into it. (And no I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush just a large number of them)
They think it's big of them to sit back, smoke a bit of weed and then expect a handout every 2 weeks.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

You'll probably find it's actually a small number of them compared to those that do want to make a success of their own lives, just like it is throughout the rest of society.

However, this change to the rules won't care - it removes all support no matter the circumstances.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Ben, really, you should know by now that all today's youth are universally feckless wasters, whereas when posters in this thread were young everyone was working a 60 hour week for really low pay, living off rain water and mud and sleeping in sheds.

TLDR: Don't bother trying to explain modern reality to people who would've probably been entitled to cheap rent in some of the then-plentiful council housing before buying a house at 2.5 - 3.5 times a single income, and were likely in pretty secure jobs which actually had fixed hour contracts and didn't require a degree to earn a little below the average wage.

That the incomes of under-25s have dropped precipitously and will continue to is all their fault, nothing at all to do with outside factors.

---------- Post added at 15:24 ---------- Previous post was at 15:06 ----------

I think Sarah Wollaston has it spot on.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...arah-wollaston

I am increasingly concerned by what these changes are doing to the poorest.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...changes-report

There are way better ways of reducing the housing benefit bill than this.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Well we were. :p:

Not really, but as I recall there was nothing other than dole and you only got that if you'd already worked for a considerable period of time. Majority of my peers lived with their parents and saved up for their first step on the property ladder, often a run down terrace that needed everything done and mostly they did it themselves or from/with mates. Then teenage pregnancy was considered taboo rather than a passport into state paid for housing and benefits.

If employers could have got UK labour in the past then they would not have had to resort to so much migrant labour. That has made a magnet for further influxes resulting in a race to the bottom. The seeds were sown.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2.../housingpolicy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobseek...arlier_history

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I think ignition has it right.

Cons need to be careful, they're demonising huge swathes of the population because they're completely out of touch with Reality, politicians should be made to live in the real word for a bit, they might have more of a clue than those with a private education, ******** degree, perhaps a stint in the military - as an officer..., then back home to the 'family estate' doesn't bode well for the rest of us when it comes to being in touch with the every-man.

No I'm not a labour supporter, but I'm thoroughly disgusted by the 'reforms' done to the most vulnerable.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Our first house in London back in the 80's cost 4-5 times our combined salaries. Thinking back then, our first TV a 24" Hitachi cost almost £400 which was a lot more than I earned in a month. The only reason we could cope financially was because we bought a 2 up 2 down which needed everything doing to it and over the next few years I did nearly all of the work needed myself before we moved on.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

London is always going to a unique case in regards to house prices vs salary

I remember being able to just about afford a studio flat in Lewisham in 1998 on a full time salary of around £14k. Based on some the prices I've seen of rental prices in London today, that might not even get me a shared room.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

After I left the Forces, I lived in shared accommodation for nearly five years - I didn't expect someone else taxes to pay (in part) for a place of my own.

Expectations are higher now, perhaps.....

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes, but that was 1918, before the benefits kicked in. ;)

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

The main problem seems to be young people who are unemployed and living at home, who then suddenly decide to leave home with the taxpayer expected to pay the bill.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Relatively to incomes rents certainly are.

---------- Post added at 18:12 ---------- Previous post was at 18:10 ----------

Now it would likely be 10 times your income, and your mention of a TV at that price does away somewhat with the claims that today's kids throw money away while earlier generations were paragons of responsibility - the price of a TV then would now pay for a TV, an iPad, and a few months of mobile phone contract.

EDIT: There are actually records of the ancient Romans complaining about their feckless youth. It seems pretty churlish of us to pull up the rug on 18-20s, especially over such a small amount of money in the grand scheme. The hardship this will cause really isn't worth the saving.

Here's an idea for George and Dave to reduce the housing benefit bill across the board - follow pretty much everyone else in the developed world and take investment in housing off the books as far as national debt goes, liberalise planning with regards to greenbelt designations, allow housing associations to borrow more freely, and overall build some bloody houses. About 300,000 per year until the end of the decade should do for a start.

Appreciate this may reduce the third of Tory MPs who are landlords' rental yields, and may even harm the plan to keep people feeling a false wealth effect by keeping housing expensive, not to mention it'll make all kinds of people who think the government should be subsidising their house price sulk, but it'll certainly help with the housing, or more accurately landlord, benefit bill.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Does it? It was a wedding present from my wife's parents. Like I said, not only could we not have afforded it but I'd rather have had the cash to do the work I wanted to do.

Unlike many of the kids of today we had that same TV for many years, how often does the average youngster change their phone which is exactly what the big corps everyone whines about want them to do. We put virtually every penny we had spare into our house and have never regretted it.

Come to think of it, when we got married we hired the local scout hall for the reception and did all the catering ourselves for about £300 all in. The wife's wedding dress was handed down and the bridesmaids dresses were made by my sister. I wore a work suit. How many people want to do that today? Many would rather have the big event for a day and pay for it over years. Of course these things wouldn't make up for everything the younger generation have to put up with today but if people thought more about sacrificing some of the things we did, they'd be much closer to being able to get themselves on the ladder.

The truth is that things have changed and people today think nothing of having all sorts of memberships, contracts, subscriptions etc. coming out of their salaries for things we'd never have dreamed of then and for the most part they'd rather have now/pay later.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Right. So what does that say about every other age group up to the age of 54, all of whose home ownership rates have also fallen since 1992?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/3.jpg

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/1.png

I have actually just realised I posted those same graphs to you in another post along similar-ish lines, where you were supporting government cash being used to subsidise the wealthier, not poorer, retirees. Oddly the costs of that policy appear to outweigh the savings of this one but that's fine, right?

I hope for your sake that you have saved adequately for your own retirement and have enough for private healthcare throughout it, as given your willingness to shaft the 'feckless' young we may all find they collectively grow a pair and return the favour to us at some point.

Beyond that I've nothing more to say to you on the matter. There are of course feckless members of the younger generation but, as the Roman texts show, there always have been, and there is absolutely no reason to think this generation is worse than any other beyond the prejudice that members of every generation seem to hold towards the previous one. Sorry to say that your personal experience means nothing. The whole point of progress is to try and give our kids a better life than us, not complain about how feckless and hopeless they are and do what we can to drag them down to what was our level 20 years ago.

Maybe if we treated them better rather than telling them their exams are too easy, they're thick, they're lazy, etc, they would do better.

Maybe if we invest more in them we will all do better.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

What has home ownership to do with this? Under 21, on benefits and able to afford their own home.:shocked:

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Here we go again "feckless and lazy youths" not my experience the young round my town bust a gut trying to get work and usually they are scuppered by the older generation not wanting to even pay minimum wage if they can get an immigrant to do it for less. In the last three years a slew of housing is full of eastern Europeans undercutting local labour who can't undercut back as they have all the bills many migrants don't bother themselves about. Nothing against the eastern europeans id do the same in their position but expecting british youth to compete with them is ridiculous. Have a guess which generation usually says "I won't get out of bed for less then 25k" hint it isn't the young I can't believe how easy it has been for this government to get us all at each others throats at a time when cosy stitch ups have been the norm.

Housing benefit bill has exploded because so many private renters have been allowed to charge stupid rents and rather then anyone telling them to come back to planet earth we hit those who have no other choice great plan.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

It was a direct response to the claim that the young are somehow feckless and it's why they can't get on the housing ladder. I pointed out that every age group from the age of 54 downwards is falling off the ladder as a direct rebuttal.

It could also be asked what a good part of the posts have to do with it but I think it came down to the prejudice that is constantly spouted, almost invariably by those who have relatively little contact with this age group beyond the worst kind, that this generation is a disaster.

That relate to this generation? Nope - it's a quote from Socrates, who died in 399 B.C.E, a mere 2,414 years ago.

As I said, viewing the young with contempt appears to be a long-standing tradition.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

But I (and quite a few others) are not viewing the young with contempt - we are just stating that having a rented place of your own, if you can't afford it, isn't a right.

My son-in-law, after he left Uni, shared a house for two years with four of his friends - because they were all on relatively low wages at the time, they couldn't afford their own (rented) place; so they shared a house.

Not sure what the problem is with doing this?

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

100 Years War, actually.... :D

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

The problem is, Hugh, this will affect young parents and the most vulnerable more than others.

It's too indiscriminate.

I would far rather see a programme of social housing building, you know the kind of housing that Thatcher destroyed to buy votes from her newly created property owning classes, alongside a more contributory form of welfare.

Along with this the welfare cap shouldn't go down. The formula it was calculated on was agreed and had cross-party support.

I would also suggest there's no reason why, if we're cutting housing benefit from the 18-20s, we shouldn't cut it from everyone else.

I appreciate this wouldn't be politically expedient as it wouldn't be a policy whose effect is felt most on groups that don't generally vote for the Conservative party anyway, but we're all in it together and all that.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Ah well they are lowering the benefit cap to pay for new apprenticeships I mean you wouldn't want the company's that will benefit to pay too much far better to hit the vulnerable again and it's always popular as this and many other forums show.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

As I said before I have no issue in house sharing where it's appropriate

But Housing Benefit covers situations where what you are earning isn't enough to cover your housing needs, even if you are working full time and sharing. The blanket removal support where you might need it no matter the circumstances is wrong.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Excellent news :)

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I agree with you - one size fit all simplistic solutions very rarely work.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Good job they don't plan a "blanket removal of support" then isn't it ;).This plan is only aimed at those on JS ,it will not include the disabled or those with children .Having a job has never meant that you can automatically afford housing it has always been tough at the start but that is an encouragement to better oneself instead of sitting on the dole relying on state money

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes cutting the cost of the disabled is taken care of with P.I.P so much cheaper then D.L.A.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

You really do let yourself down sometimes you know. I have merely responded to your persistent attacks on older people which wear a bit thin when you refuse to accept that many of them have only got where they are by forfeiting the sort of things most young people today take for granted - many examples of which I have given. You on the other hand lump all older people into one group and like to tell us all how well off they all are and how they've somehow enjoyed the best of everything only to leave the youth to foot the bill. Sorry but that's patent nonsense. Tell my mum and dad how well off they are after a lifetime of scrimping and saving and taking bugger all out of the system. Nobody helped them, they did it all on their own.

Given that I have two teens I'm hardly likely to want to see them 'shafted' by anyone am I? My youngest will not be able to decide for himself but my eldest has made his own choices, he earns what he does, saves what he does and spends what he does. If he decides to spend his money on clothes, booze and holidays he'll be reliant on us for longer than I'd like. We may or may not fulfil his expectations in that regard. If on the other hand he decides to live at home, save for a deposit etc. we will do our best to help him because doing precisely that is the only reason we have what we do. Yes my lad has a loan and will have to work hard to get on the property ladder but so what? I doubt his life will bear any relation to the life my father in particular endured throughout which if he didn't work we didn't eat.

Luckily I have made provision for the future and one of the reasons for that is that I want to help my kids if at all possible. If I'd had the cars and holidays I could have had, I wouldn't have been able to it. Adequate or not well who knows? Crystal balls are in short supply around these parts but that was my choice. I'm not whining about what I've done, it was my choice and I'm proud that I followed my parents' example and saved for the future. I would hope my eldest does likewise, it's his life however and if he wants the trappings and bling then he won't get much sympathy from me when he tells me he can't afford the mortgage for a flat.

Anyway I sense you're as likely to moderate your views as I am to alter mine so forgive me for not indulging your agenda further. Best of luck with all that bitterness you appear to have.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Especially when so many disabled will suddenly become "able" in the eyes of the government, not worthy of aid, and the budget will go to help "those most in need". One heck of a get-out clause that. :(

Our 23 year old disabled twins are DESPERATE to find work of any kind. They have completed college, plus course after course designed to "enter the workforce", but still nothing.

CV's have NEVER been answered. Jobcentre visits have become pointless, but they still go there and allow themselves to be forced to go through the motions over and over, by a staff that is as bored with it all as they are.

Even voluntary work has dried up completely.

Apprenticeships? Don't make me laugh......

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Wouldn't it be a shame if the Conservative mindset of blanket benefit withdrawal on the most needy, cost them the election. It's surely their most unpopular policy choice, it's certainly pee'd off a large proportion of the populace (no I'm not talking about benefit scroungers living in 5 bed houses etc etc)

IDS really does need taking out back and uhh 'talking' too, he's completely disconnected with reality.

Imagine that, Labour sneak in (with some SNP help) all because of IDS effectively, wow that's a mind ****

---------- Post added at 18:33 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

Yes after all, any savings made are a drop in the Ocean compared to the Foreign Corruption Package we give out each year...

(Ok I know I don't always make the most coherent arguments, but it's so hard to take a Government seriously when they bang on about 'having to make cuts' then they give away so much money in Foreign aid or they suddenly decide people are now 'fit' despite clearly not being - simply to meet a target)

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Therin is the nub of the problem: Too many people on the state teat. Benefits seen as a right rather than a safety net for the most vulnerable. A legacy of the last administrations attempt to get all the popule on state benefits so they all will vote Labour to avoid losing benefits.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

All political colours use and abuse the welfare system when it suits them hence none of them implementing real meaningful reform just piecemeal cost cutting dressed up as reform and swallowed whole by a large selection of the public. We minions spend so much of our time tearing each other apart on the belief of political ideologies that don't really exist anymore no matter what colour the monkey wears scratch the surface and they are all the same. Politics has stopped working in the interests of the people and the state a while ago and now only works for the vested interests that give them the best return, there may be a few genuine ones left but less and less each general election.

As far as able to work is concerned if anyone can say that walking 20 metres even if in pain and not able to repeat everyday of a five day week is fit and able then we really are in trouble . I live across the road from a school and that is over 30 metres away how many people live within 20 metres of their job ?. People need to stop taking the word of politicians on anything and look for themselves as what your told and what's actually happening these days is rarely ever the same.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I wondered how long it would take for this thread to be side tracked with "government attacks on the disabled":rolleyes: ,this policy does not affect the disabled.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

If one party to a couple happens to be disabled and the other party is aged 18-24 and in receipt of JSA and HB then yes, of course, it will adversely affect the disabled in some circumstances as the loss of JB might well render the couple homeless.

This is not a policy aimed solely at single, unattached individuals aged 18 - 24 in receipt of JSA.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes it is ,that is exactly who it is aimed at ,that was just about the only detail that Cameron has given us ,back in september last year when this policy was first revealed .

from last years article on the subject

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-29398907

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I stand partially corrected, based on his statement. A statement which, I hasten to add, I very much doubt he will adhere to.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Well i can't do anything about your refusal to believe what he says .In my opinion if a 19 yr old cannot support him/herself then they should stay at home with their parents

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I haven't refused to believe anything. I simply doubt that he'll adhere to what he supposedly said, if indeed he said it.

You are entitled to your opinion, of course. There are, however, increasingly high numbers of people of that age group who are unable, for various reasons, to live at home with their parents.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

In that case it's pointless even having an opinion if you doubt he said it and doubt he will stick to the policy .If you search for a rerun of the Andrew Marr show then you will see that he did say it and be in no doubt any longer :rolleyes:

Such as ? I can't think off the top of my head of any reason why a single unemployed 19 yr old without disability and without children should be able to leave home and get housed by the state

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

My daughter worked hard to get her qualifications in childcare and has by local standards a well paid job but couldn't afford a place of her own so so joined a friend living together there is nothing wrong with house Sharing but rents are still going up and she has been told her rent will increase by £200 pcm this April and she's worrying about being able to afford it. Most older people never had the difference between their wage and property costs I've got 5 uncles all in their mid to late fifties and they all say its a lot harder for their kids now. Youth of today also do not have the level of job security many older people had when they started out it's simply not fair to compare the two and certainly not fair to label all 19-24 year old the same.

People will say "your daughter will have to move back in with you" and that's always been available to her but she's been living in her own place by her own rules for three years it's another thing that isn't so simple. We have a class of landlords now charging ridiculous rents so high that people can't pay and save condemning them to a life of private rent something just isn't fair about that let alone allowing those landlords to charge so much they keep people locked into the private rent sector. Our kids are being screwed always and it's heartbreaking to be a parent and not be in the position to help them as we should.

Oh as for the no reason any fit, single and 19 year old might not want to move back home couple for you. 1 came from an abusive home or 2 one of the thousands that come out of kids homes every year sure I could think of more but those were the quick one's.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Do you have a link at all? I'm only sceptical because I can find no reference to the supposed quote at all that appears in quotation marks. Every reference I've found thus far is attributed to him but not actually quoted. Aside from that any Hansard or policy briefing I've read on the matter does not give exemption specifics so I'm curious as to when this became "policy" because the age demographic I referenced (18-24) was once the ONS / Government barometer. He (Cameron) appears to now be focused on 18-21 year olds.

EDIT - May have found it, watching now.

I'm sure you can't but the fact is there are tens of thousands of them doing just that.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Then please enlighten me

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

It was indeed the Marr show (28/09/2014) just after 17 minutes in. Thanks.

Quite an ingenious policy.

Essentially he was proposing to bring forward legislation that you can't claim housing benefit if you are single, with no kids and unemployed. Can anyone see an obvious flaw in this cunning plan?

I wonder is that why there is no mention of exemptions for parents in this latest rehash of his proposals?

Domestic violence or family breakdown, will that do for starters?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Are you even reading the links provided .There was a specific exemption for parents mentioned.

Not really ,we are talking about adults here not children.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Or they just don't get married because they can't afford it. They don't have stable accomodation, they have to both work to pay the bills and rent, and hence put off major life events such as marriage until later life.

More data - sorry.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/2.jpg

http://www.parliament.uk/business/pu...s-settle-down/

Interesting how the marital age starts to rise as Thatcher starts to take apart council housing. Correlation != causation, but...

The average ages for a first marriage in the UK at most recent statistics take were 32.1 for the man and 30.0 for the woman.

I do hope you don't consider people over the age of 30 to also be feckless youth?

I'm not going to comment on your latest post, there isn't really much substantive in it to discuss.

EDIT: Apart from this bit:

Per the other thread I'm alright, Jack. :tu:

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

The Tories, will be out soon. But the Tories will cut everything before they go. Its about time Cameron goes after all these big companies, that owe millions in tax.

But, he wont as he knows that these big companies pump money into the Tory party.

There are no jobs worth taking out there for young people. Its not about sitting on there backside. My son, yes he is disabled, but he wants to work. But FOUR agencies have told him that they cannot help him

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

If you're going to provide data, you should probably have a go at reading what it says, rather than what you seem to want it to say.

Age of first birth and age of marriage very clearly, according to that graph, abruptly started to climb about a decade before Thatcher came to power. The right to buy legislation then came into effect a year after her election win, in October 1980. Without having looked up the data, I postulate that any resultant shortage in council stock would have then taken a few years to reach problematic levels.

Availability of housing would be an obvious contributory factor, but it clearly isn't the driving force according to that graph. I would suggest that the boomer generation emerging from the 1960s into full-blown adulthood, with all the usual boomer assumptions about getting things their own way, would be at the root of it.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes Marty, I am reading the links. There was a specific mention of an exemption back in September 2014. Has that been mentioned in the current reportage which the OP linked to or the link in the article to the Telegraph? Not as far as I can see. What is reiterated in both is "Another £120 million would be derived from removing housing benefit from 18 to 21 year olds on Jobseekers' Allowance." and "The rest of the money will be paid for by removing housing benefit from jobless 18 to 21-year-olds."

For the reason stated above I do not think an exemption due to being a parent is workable simply because it will lead to a boom in childbirth in order to qualify and that will put further strains on budgets.

You said "I can't think off the top of my head of any reason why a single unemployed 19 yr old without disability and without children should be able to leave home and get housed by the state " I simply offered you two sets of circumstances which are recorded as legitimate reasons for them to do so.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Then pretty much level out during the 70s and accelerate again from the early 80s onwards and have carried on.

Apologies if my criticism of Thatcher's cynical bribery disguised as housing policy was misplaced. :)

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

How could "right to buy" affected housing availability? Just as much housing was available as if "right to buy" had never happened. It was just a transfer of ownership.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Actually, you will find that it was labour who let the first slew of migrants in saying that we would only get 15 000 and then apologized years later when it turned out that many, many more had come over.Stop talking rubbish. I'm sick and tired of people sounding off about rents and landlords.
Have you done the maths? Have you looked at house prices, looked at buy to let interest rates+solicitors fees+stamp duty+arrangement fees+estate agent fees+capital gains tax. Then looked at what the rent a landlord needs to charge in order to break even on his/her investment?
If you had done the sums (and I have) you would have found that the profit margins on what landlords make are slim (and that's before you take into account the threat of labour getting into power and bringing in rent controlls/another recession dropping house prices and thus rental incomes). Stop your populist whining and join the real world.

---------- Post added at 23:15 ---------- Previous post was at 23:13 ----------

No, that I agree about. It was all about buying votes.
In spite of the fact that you will never get a left wing supporter to never ever admit to the great socialist ideal having had a failure..... :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:15 ----------

:clap:

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Really? Where does it say that? Things like pain and speed and safety are meant to factored in. Eg if you can walk a several hundred metres but can only manage it at half the normal speed, then you are meant to be treated as completely unable to walk.

The same goes for ALL the PIP activities.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Doesn't matter what the notes say, the important words in your statement are "meant to be".
Let me elaborate. I am slightly to the right of Margaret Thatcher but the injustices that I see heaped upon the disabled and infirm by the benefit assesors are awful. There are many disabled people in this country who are denied dla and other benefits because of evil minded assesors who ( I can only assume) are being paid a bonus for each disabled person that they turn down for dla etc....

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Where that is the case, then the person will win at the reconsideration or tribunal appeal stage.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

In an ideal world that's a nice idea but they don't bother going to appeal/tribunal because it's not worth the time and aggro to get nowhere again.
Look. I'm a right wing, self employed, capitalist. Whose birthright was stolen by socialists and whose grandfather was lead off into the forest to be shot by soviet troops simply because he was a educated landowner. I despise left wingers/socialists.
In spite of all that, even I can see that certain sections of our society are being treated in a terrible manner.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Tribunal yes last I heard it was an eighteen month waiting period to get one and there was a huge backlog then who knows what it is now. Even if the tribunal rules in your favour your back in for assessment within a month then back on the tribunal merry go round again thousands are already on it.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Your criticism of Thatcher's attempt to create a socially responsible, property-owing democracy was somewhat misplaced, yes, IMO. ;)

There are all sorts of factors at play here. You have picked one that scratches a particular itch, but you have ignored, for example, the fact that fewer, later marriages, and smaller, later families are widespread phenomena in developed western countries. They are a function of healthcare, career opportunities and increased female participation in the workplace: things that are common across borders, rather than social policies unique to one particular place or time.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I don't understand your refusal to believe what has been written so i'm not to try .The fact is that this policy will only affect childless,single, jobless 18-21yr olds whether you believe it or not ,that is what has been announced and what will go in the manifesto.As for saying the policy will lead to a baby boom because young people will simply go and get pregnant to get a house on the state ,that is already happening and has been happening for some years because we have been to free with housing benefit .

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Maybe on the estate where you live.

I would argue most 18-21 would have higher aspirations than that.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Notwithstanding the fact that the manifesto hasn't been written / published as yet I'm sure you are well aware that manifesto pledges frequently never materialize.

So what is the supposed point of the policy not applying to people with children? If access to housing benefit in the 16-21 year old age group becomes essentially dependant on whether or not they have children what exactly is it about this supposed manifesto policy that fills you with such confidence that there will be a reduction in child birth in that age category and, consequently, a reduction in demand for / entitlement to Housing Benefit for that particular social demographic?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

It is strange that where a young girl has a baby whilst living at home, it requires a council house/flat, whereas if the mother of the girl had the baby it wouldn't. Same amount of room required, but only in one case is a new house/flat needed.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Not necessarily correct.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Too many sub-threads in this thread but it's a fascinating one for sure!

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

I will take 'property-owing' as subconscious rather than simply a mistake.

Had that been the intention alone not preventing councils from replacing stock with the proceeds rather than causing a big crunch in housing supply that we're feeling the effects of even now, with the resultant prodigious debt hang-over, property-owing indeed, might have been a plan. Alongside some quite ill-advised privatisations, with some very sensible ones, there was tons of ideology at work, which is biting more and more.

As it is taxpayers have to subsidise the 'property-owing' democracy to avoid banks going under and the housing benefit bill is through the roof due to a lack of affordable housing as Thatcher cut stock and destroyed ability to supply.

If you do give the benefit of the doubt and say it was an unintentional consequence it was a pretty large one, with the added bonus we're now below the EU-27 average for home ownership rates, that includes those states that didn't gut social housing provision to foster home ownership. :)

Anyway I think I'm out of this, interesting as the thread and its sub-threads are!

---------- Post added at 16:37 ---------- Previous post was at 16:29 ----------

One more.

it destroyed affordable housing availability and going forward wiped out councils' ability to build as they couldn't use proceeds of the sales to build more. How're the queues for social housing looking in your local area?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/1.gif

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

The two are flip-sides of the same coin. If you intend to create a society based on individual property ownership and the sense of personal responsibility that goes with it, you also want to block those with a contrary ideology from snookering your plan by building large numbers of "social" housing at impossibly low rents, subsidised by ratepayers in larger private houses. This is not ideologically-driven spite. It is logically consistent with the policy aims - as was the stipulation that councils had to provide mortgages for those that wished to buy.

"Ability to supply" is not determined by whether or not district councils are allowed to build houses. Ultimately, this is due to a failure to deal with the highly restrictive Town and Country Planning Act 1948, which has turned out to be a Nimby's charter when it comes to the large scale planning and building of new housing estates, coupled with a similarly long-term failure to recognise the dangers of centralising so much in the south east of England.

As above. Deal with the planning constraints and the rest will follow. The market is failing at present, because it is distorted so that supply cannot match demand.

Again, the graph doesn't support the spin you're putting on it. Council house building was in steep decline from about 1975. In fact, at the point when Right to Buy was having its biggest effects, in the early 1980s, the decline in council house building suddenly became far less pronounced. Unfortunately the rate of private house building, having enjoyed a brief renaissance in the first half of the 80s, soon went into reverse.

Anecdotally, I remember that period of time, as there was a lot of building on what was about to become green belt near where we were living. It was generally said that the splurge was taking place as developers tried to get in before the new green belt designations took effect.

Again, assuming that to be true, the issue is one of planning restrictions, not councils being banned from using one specific income stream to build new houses.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I thought P.M. Thatcher prevented councils from spending income from right-to-buy?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Yes - as I said above, if you believe in the creation of a property-owning democracy with a high degree of personal responsibiility, then you're going to try to prevent those who oppose you from undermining that aim by building large numbers of council houses and then letting them at super-low, ratepayer-subsidised rents.

Thatcher moved in an age when the battle between state socialism and private capitalism was live and hot, and the issue of whether or not the state should provide almost everything, and regulate that which it did not provide, was by no means settled. Her determination to not only give people the chance to own their own homes, but also to prevent left-wing metropolitan councils from undermining her aim, should be seen in that overall context.

And, as I also said above, it is far too easy to simply blame Thatcher for our current housing shortage. The blame for that lies in the failure to reform planning legislation, and the willingness of those already on the property ladder to impede the chances of those who aspire to get on it.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

It removes the right for that demographic to qualify for state housing unless they can support themselves.On a side noteI find it ironic that it will be easier to stop that group getting state housing than it will to stop migrants getting the same when neither have payed into the system.


I didn't say it would lead to a reduction in child birth in that category,i said that young girls already use childbirth to get state housing in reply to your assertion that it will lead to a boom in childbirth as people seek to get state housing.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Or unless they have children. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même.

Yes, as you say, a side note.


So, again, plus ça change.....

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Not the same at all .Many of the welfare changes introduced have been as much about changing peoples perception of what the welfare system is for as much as saving money ,this just another example

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I think that is false. Rent payers have probably paid the value of council houses and their maintenance several times over (at least) to the profit of the council, and therefore to "rate payers".

I think that Right to Buy was also not policed properly, if at all. I know of several council houses that were bought and quickly resold for a fat profit. And that was against the rules. A house sold before a certain period meant a refund to the council on a sliding scale.

Large new developments are planned here, including "affordable housing" and "new" council houses. It's a con of course, as the "new" houses are planned to be one-for-one replacements for council houses in poor repair that will be demolished. And they're not the older Victorian and pre-war homes either, but ones that were built in the 60's and 70's!

As for young jobseekers not being allowed Housing Benefit, I agree to some extent, unless the home situation is too dire to contemplate. Assisted Living for some disabled persons is/was axed as it is cheaper to keep them at their parents' home. And parents receiving Carers Allowance receive a pittance compared with "professional" carers (or that least the bosses of the companies).

Plus caring for older people will be drastically reduced if the offspring, still at home, are pushed into being their Carers.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

It is exactly the same.

We're not talking about "Many of the welfare changes" we are talking about this supposed proposal to withdraw Housing Benefit support for 18-21 year olds who are single, unemployed (and without children).

You yourself, on the matter of people currently having children in order to afford themselves housing Benefit funded accomodation, have acknowledged "that is already happening and has been happening for some years because we have been to free with housing benefit .".

Allegedly intending to introduce a policy whereby people within a certain age grouping will be denied Housing benefit if they do not have children (that being mooted as an "exemption") changes nothing.

People in that age grouping threatened with a withdrawl or refusal (I've read somewhere that this proposal is not retrospective in nature) of Housing Benefit will simply seek to meet the qualifying "exemption" criteria.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

The point your missing is that young girls are already doing that because despite the right to housing that current 18-21 yr olds have it is very rare that they make it to the top of the housing list and get accomodation because of the priorities already set by the LA's ,a sudden increase in childbirth is unlikely because those that would do it are already doing it.As i said this policy is not just about saving money it is as much about perception

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

The point you are missing is that they will continue to do what they do in the belief (as evidenced below) that it assists with housing allocation prioritization. Others will follow suit. It's as well it's not just about "saving money" because it doesn't look like it will save any money.

In 2012 Cameron was predicting savings of 2bn which was scoffed at. He changed tact and age grouping in 2013 announcing that all people under 25 not in work or education would have it removed (incidentally, one figure from the conderence that is worthy of note is the fact that single parents make up 40% of Housing Benefit claims of under 25's - are you seeing a pattern yet). Then in September 2014 he announces the age grouping to be 18-21 but that he is "not talking about people with children".

It's a nice soundbite, yes. But that is all it is. It appeals to a certain demographic of the electorate who are excited by silly suggestions when in reality all that is happening in relation to this particular proposal is the equivalent of rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic.

It's not rocket surgery. Tens of thousands of teenagers for years have managed to figure out how to get free housing benefit. You can rest assured that telling them that having a child more or less guarantees the status quo will not have the board of Durex jumping up and down with excitement.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Which is basically what i said in reply to your "it will result in a baby boom" assertion.

All that is changing is that unemployed childless 18-21yr olds will no longer qualify for HB that money will now be used to fund apprentiships ,how succesful it will be i have no idea but it is a move in the right direction imo

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Only those too stupid to see their way round the proposal will no longer qualify for HB and, evidently, I don't share your optimism in that regard.

That said, it's still not a policy as yet. It's still at the aspiration / soundbite stage & very fluid.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

There is that and although i agree with the policy i'm sure there are better ways to fund apprentiships

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Rate payer subsidised rent :confused: unless they're in receipt of some sort of benefit how are they subsidised?

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Prior to the 1980s it was not uncommon for councils to collect less in rent than it cost to maintain their housing stock. The maintenance costs were therefore subsidised by rate payments. There is an argument that this is fair enough, if well-off homeowners are subsidising the rent of those who need social housing because, for whatever reason, they can't afford to rent or buy commercially. However, when renting a council house was de rigeur for an entire swathe of the British working class population, thanks to the large number of council houses that existed, the existence of artificially low rents basically amounted to the large-scale subsidy of council tenants by private homeowners, regardless of whether there was a social need for it (often, there wasn't). Local councils were, in effect, involving themselves in the business of wealth redistribution rather than simply providing socially necessary local services.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Wow the rent must have been cheap if the council couldn't make a profit out of them over the life of the house and you'd think given that they'd have been really well maintained and not in need of the cash from right to buy being unlocked by labour to renovate what remained as they were dilapidated!

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I remember going to one of the local council meetings in the early 1980's, the main topic of a heated discussion was the high levels of rent arrears. The highly subsidised council housing rent at that time made it far cheaper than having a mortgage. It always used to amaze me walking to school in my last year or so seeing council houses with nearly new BMW's etc parked outside, whilst my parents who had a mortgage couldn't afford such luxuries.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

May go some what towards explaining this, along with pensioner bribery.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/02/28.jpg

Not especially clear but Labour polling twice Tory vote in 25-44 age group, over 50% higher in 18-25, Tories well ahead in 65+.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Was out in London last night, the amount of homeless is worse than I've ever seen, on a night like that as well, can only assume how many were there due to cuts

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I think that one of the original aims of Council houses was to provide affordable housing to the poor.

The day that Rent Rebates (Now called Housing Benefit) was introduced, I believe that all subsidies for council houses should have been stopped. My reason being that local taxation subsidised council house rents and income tax (at the time*) funded the Rent Rebate scheme. Why should taxpers pay twice? Why should those on a decent income get a subsidy? Those on a low income no longer needed a subsidised rent when Rent Rebates came into existence as the higher rents were taken into account when calculating assistance for a Rent Rebate.

* The Thatcher Government changed the Housing Benefit subsidy rules; effectively meaning that council tenants who paid their own rent covered the cost of much of the Housing Benefit paid towards the rent accounts of poorer tenants by way of increasing levels of rent to compensate the Housing Revenue Account for the loss of rental income from tenants deemed too poor to pay some or all of their rent.

This is one if the main reasons why council house rents rose so much to, in my opinion, a fairer and more appropriate level in the 1980's onwards.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Social housing rents are set using factors such as local income. A policy was introduced in 2002(ie under LABOUR) to increase the varying social rent levels in area UPWARDS until they were the same.
That 2012 target was extended by this government to 2015/2016, thereby REDUCING the annual rent increases.

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

Our council rent is still going up faster than inflation, and to increase the overall take, they are charging more and more for mandatory "other services" such as communal lighting, cleaning, gardening, garages, parking and "improving the area".

Re: Torys to cut housing benefit of young
 

I thought all rents across the board were going up faster than inflation..:erm: