Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Here's a really good blog that explains the subject:

http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad....ner-bonds.html

Wasting taxpayers' money doesn't sound much like conservatism to me, especially in light of Osborne spending the past 5 years banging on about austerity and waste.

Using taxpayers' money to buy votes from a certain client group, however, sounds like corruption to me?

Subsidising the savings rates of those who are able to invest £20,000 from general taxation also sounds like a transfer of wealth from the taxpayer in general to those who are on the wealthier end of the spectrum.

All in all a despicable policy hiding behind soundbites and the now very much disproven idea that all pensioners are on the brink of starving and/or freezing to death, despite their being the only group who have seen their incomes rise in real terms over the past 5 years, and being the only age-group besides the 55-64 age-group to see home ownership rates increase.

If this were open to everyone then, yeah, maybe. Still regressive but at least not as corrupt. If this were not in existence at all and the government stopped messing with interest rates on savings and borrowing via giving banks cheap cash so that they don't have to pay decent rates of interest on savings, awesome.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Sounds just like every other election year since ever to me ...

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Ah that's alright then.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

No, it isn't. It's just not surprising.

Blair/Brown identified a middle class client group and bought its votes with tax credits. Cameron/Osborne have identified retired boomers and are attempting to buy theirs.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I kinda got the economic point with tax credits - they arrested the GINI increase somewhat and hence ensured there was more money flowing around the economy. This, however, has no economic case I'm aware of that can be made for it.

I welcome education on this matter.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

And do we really think there are half a million pensioners with £20k spare a year around?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Seems that way.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...s-9979409.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...s-website.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...-to-apply.html

So that's NS&I saying they'll sell out, 'financial experts', 'savings rates analysts, Moneyfacts and Savings Champion just from a 5 minute Google.

So, yes, it certainly does appear that there are half a million pensioners with the required capital. Joys of being on the good side of the housing market, final salary pension schemes, etc.

EDIT: Hugh - here's a thought. There are mortgage deals out there that are considerably lower than this 4% rate that the Chancellor is using our taxes to subsidise. If you were a homeowner using equity release or extending your mortgage to invest in this scheme would deliver a profit. A taxpayer subsidised profit. How insane is that?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

It's not working on me.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Can pensioners cash in their pension pots yet? They could do that....

4% is really good though.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Before tax.....

Some ISAs have upped their rates (non-taxable) to compete.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Whole bunch of options. 4% risk free with things as they are right now? Who wouldn't find a way to liquidate some other assets to invest on that basis?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Can I just point out the 4% interest on £20k per year, after tax, is £640 (20% tax rate) and £480 (40% tax rate) - or £12.31 / £9.23 per week.

Wrinkly boomers wouldn't be exactly living high on the hog on that extra income, will they?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Quite - which begs the question of why George Osborne is offering up potentially ~£300 million per year of taxpayers' cash in extra interest costs over the gilt market subsidising it.

Money that should be circulating around the economy will, instead, be subsiding low-risk, subsidised investment in government bonds which makes a bit of a mockery of low interest rates in the name of encouraging riskier investment and increasing the flow of money through the economy.

The Chancellor has never been an economist but always an astute politician and this is another of his policies that is economically illiterate but most definitely a smart political move.

Whether the economy of a nation should be run based on politics rather than economics is another debate, though that's perhaps misusing the word 'debate'.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Interest rates are puny everywhere..I'm very peeved at the Post Office who have just reduced the interest rates on the lump sum I deposited two months ago.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I intend to cash in on some of mine in March, then sponge off the state pension at 65 in the same way that the will not work and have never worked types do with benefits now. I will still have one private,my state and full army pension :D

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

If you still have your private and army pension then won't they take that into account anyway? Also isn't the state pension flat rate now either way? :confused:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Will find out in March when i take advice on my best options :)

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I will save a few quid on that meeting as my advice would consist of 'Thanks for paying 6 figures on other people's state pensions. You're on your own. Please either get private healthcare or die quickly to avoid burdening what's left of the NHS.'.

:)

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I don't begrudge this particular client group from a little bit extra. No more than I begrudged the changes in stamp duty.

Is it that much different to all the other benefits dished out from the public purse such as tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit etc.

I imagine everyone gets a handout of one sort or another; why shouldn't the oldies have a few bob too? They pay/paid into the system.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

:tu:

Its about time those of us that work and pay in get something back.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Bit late for that given the state pension just went flat rate...

---------- Post added at 17:58 ---------- Previous post was at 17:57 ----------

60% of them drew out more than they put in. The idea that every 'oldie', net, paid into the system is a fallacy.

---------- Post added at 18:00 ---------- Previous post was at 17:58 ----------

So none of this client group will have received tax credits, disability allowances, child benefit, or whatever else at some point during their lives?

There seems to be this bizarre view that current and imminent retirees received nothing from 'the system' and purely contributed, drawing from the system apparently being something that only 'the young' do.

That's demonstrably not the case. They received a number of unique benefits from 'the system' during their lifetime, some of which are simply not available now, some of which are being paid for by current taxpayers who aren't going to get them themselves.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Additionally a lot of benefits are being removed from Younger people. EMA was the first to go, tuition fees were increased (in part because of increased numbers however), jobseekers allowance has been raised, housing benefit has been cut, youth services (counselling, advice, centres and medical info) have been decimated and other support networks are gone too. It is largely charities that remain.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I don't know. Do you?

Where does this 'bizarre view' come from? It's not been mentioned here.

But that is a repeating circumstance. Who knows what special deal will be available to you in your retirement? No doubt you're currently receiving a benefit that a pensioner does not qualify for.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

So if you don't know why don't you begrudge them 'a little bit extra'? Does everyone in that case deserve a little bit extra given you can't say whether or not they've, for want of a better phrase, paid their way and received benefits that the current workforce may or may not have? Do they deserve these benefits on account of miraculously reaching 80% of the average lifespan in the UK now?

You said that they pay/paid into the system. I would've thought that'd mean that the current generation of retirees somehow universally paid more into the 'system' than they took out else they wouldn't really have paid into the system.

Just FYI they didn't. The current workforce is paying higher taxes in order to correct a massive underinvestment in the country as a whole by the current retiree and near-retiree cohort, having subsidised that cohort heavily in other ways but hey what are facts when we're dealing with our poor, impoverished pensioners?

I'm more than happy to open up my entire tax affairs, so if you could show me a benefit I receive that a pensioner does not qualify for that'd be appreciated.

Child benefit? Nope - it's no longer universal and I'm not entitled. Tax credits? Nope. Anything else come to mind?

If you'd be good enough to point out a benefit I receive that a pensioner doesn't qualify for that'd be awesome. Good luck with it, mind you, as I'm quite deep into that 40% who do actually pay their way.

Yes, believe it or not some of them are the younger generations, not retirees who apparently, miraculously, paid so much into the system while working that everything they receive in retirement is what they've paid for with no subsidy from today's workforce required.

The single largest reason for the mass immigration during the Labour years is to pay the bills for the current and upcoming cohort of retirees because the politicians of that era ****ed away their one-off windfalls and left the younger generations a massive bill to make up for a lack of investment in infrastructure and a resultant big productivity gap, ignoring the huge healthcare costs said generation will inevitably incur when they near the end of their lives.

Call me cynical but I think older generations have quite enough. Our welfare state is a pile of pap in many ways, it shouldn't be slightly less pap for one group because they vote more. When you think about it that's nothing more than these bonds are - wealthy, or apparently not so wealthy given the bonds look like being oversubscribed, OAP welfare.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I have been lucky and have never been out of work, i have never had tax credits, housing benefit, dole, working tax credits. In fact i don't think i have had any benefits in my time as a working member of society. So i think its time i had something back.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Sorry, I'm not sufficiently motivated for a protracted discussion. I suppose I am just less envious :D.

Besides, it's just a handout like all the other handouts.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Right, clearly I'm just envious, can't be a sense of fairness in there it's all jealousy :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 21:38 ---------- Previous post was at 21:36 ----------

This doesn't necessarily mean that you have made a positive contribution or that you will throughout your life, though. That depends on your household's income, how many kids were in that household, and a few other things.

Nearly all of us get something back in our retirement - we will almost certainly cost the NHS a bomb as we near the end of our lives and retirement is the time when there's some equivalence.

This doesn't justify a bribe from current taxpayers - they really shouldn't be paying to ensure pensioners who can invest £20k a year get taxpayer subsidised interest rates on their savings. This is wrong however you cut it.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Maybe this scheme ought to be means tested in some way but I have no problem with people who've worked hard and managed to save some money doing so and getting slightly better rates. I can't imagine there are that many pensioners who'll be investing £20k a year for very long. That sum might represent someone's entire savings after a lifetime in work and money which they rely upon to supplement the basic state pension. Would it be better/cheaper if they decided to spend it on cars and holidays then claim additional support or free social care?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Difficult to means test as the more wealthy will be the only ones who'd have the cash.

There appear to be a fair amount of pensioners wanting to invest, and there's a nice bolus of people retiring who'll have considerable assets thanks to house price inflation.

Try justifying this to all of the people who are going to be paying twice for retirees and near-retirees' pensions, via taxes and rents on buy to let investments. Thanks to this they also get to subsidise the interest rates their landlords receive on their savings, in between paying them rent, paying taxes for their state pension, and paying for the various tax reliefs they get as a landlord.

What a great deal.

The last sentence is a ridiculous straw man. This isn't a case of either they get subsidised savings rates or they spend all their money on cars and holidays then claim off the taxpayer.

I'm not sure why any small-c conservative would support this policy. It is profoundly not conservative, it's corrupt and it's socialism for a client group.

The conservative solution would be for the government and the BoE to rebalance between savings and borrowing rates via monetary policy rather than constant subsidy. Given our present rate of inflation current savings rates are actually quite appropriate; the government shouldn't be borrowing money at 4% when it could be paying 0.6% to buy votes.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

lol It's not a straw man at all. Just an observation which applies to some and not others. Many of the people who're investing their £20k's will have gone without all sorts of things plenty of us younger folks have and still do take for granted. If they'd lived the way many do today and spent every penny they earned they would have been more reliant on the state throughout their working lives and more so their retirements. Having downsized from a 3 bed semi to a shoebox a few years ago my parents have some savings which they use to supplement the miniscule state pension they're entitled to. My mum went to a grammar school but my father didn't even get an education having been forced to leave at the age of 12-13 and like many of their generation, to get the 3 bed house they wound up owning many years later they did things like scrimp and save for years - no new cars, foreign holidays, no meals out, no smoking, no drinking, second hand clothes and cheap food. By doing this they managed to provide for themselves and qualified for nothing other than child benefit. My dad was self employed so there was no such thing as unemployment benefit for him. Thanks to the artificially low interest rates, their income has dropped significantly and their capital been eroded partly in order to bail out those who borrowed, remortgaged and borrowed some more to fund their relatively lavish lifestyles. If they are now getting some help by way of slightly higher interest rates so be it. There are plenty of things which in my opinion are far more unfair but they're probably best left to other threads.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Mums and Dads have made big sacrifices for us. A little bit of interest for them is nothing in the grand scheme of things. There are so many snouts in the public trough, this one is a curious choice to get worked up about.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I think the issue is that whilst so many other benefits, services and sectors are seeing cuts one sector of the population is not only immune from such cuts but are getting more spending instead. Why should reducing the deficit, which the Conservatives tell us is a necessity, fall disproportionately on certain sectors whilst others are less affected?

It just seems a bit odd for the Conservatives to be saying how important it is to control spending and then doing this for the biggest voting group.

Anyway it's ultimately the fault of young people for not voting. Russell Brand telling people not to vote isn't helping things either. The Government is elected by those who vote.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Ironically it's also elected by those who don't vote.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

A monetary voting ploy by the the Blue Heads to gain more Grey Heads votes. Nothing against the Grey Heads making a few extra quid though.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

That's the way l see it as well Richard.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Well they are the reliable Tory vote unlike Labour's missing students.

Oh the irony

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I think it was introduced here in NI around 2000 by Labour in an attempt to counter electoral fraud. It wasn't without problems though as its introduction resulted in what was considered a net loss of voters in the demographic. I think that may have been why Labour didn't introduce it.

The current policy which is mandatory in England, Scotland and Wales was introduced under the 2012 Act.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

No, it was nonsensical. Anyone who, if the taxpayer weren't going to subsidise the interest rate on their savings, would spend all their money and live off the taxpayer is a lunatic.

Well, yeah, we have iPads, etc. How much did TVs cost in real terms way back when? Queen Elizabeth I didn't have running water, sewage, the Internet, etc. Would you say she deserves consideration because she went without all sorts of things plenty of us 'younger folks' take for granted? Standards of living are supposed to increase generation by generation, however we're now at the stage where this has stalled and will reverse. Stuff like this doesn't help.

That is crap, frankly. 'Many' spend every penny because of high housing costs and high cost of living relative to incomes. This fallacy that suddenly an entire generation came along that were feckless and wasteful is not true. Disposable incomes for the under-30s are dropping rapidly.

This is an easy one. Look at home ownership rates and the manner in which they are falling among younger age groups while rising among the oldest demographic, along with the reliance on the wealth of parents to get onto the housing ladder now. The average first time buyer without parental help is now 36.

Chances are your parents with their equivalent income wouldn't have been on the property ladder full stop today.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/3.jpg

Also not true on the whole though obviously individual households will vary. Some people have borrowed too much for a long time, this isn't some magnificent new thing. Such things were encouraged when markets were liberalised in the 1980s.

I suspect you're thinking of the under-30s with your comments about incomes, at least disposable ones, dropping significantly.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/1.png

The largest increase in disposable income was in the 75+ demographic.

Certainly savers have suffered, sadly many of them, such as those under 30 trying to do the right thing and save for a deposit for their first property in the face of ever-increasing rents and decreasing disposable income, they get to subsidise others to buy votes and get nothing themselves.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:52 ----------

Well, the politicians they elected have certainly left us with one hell of a bill to pick up for, well, pretty much everything for sure, and many of us have and are making sacrifices in return.

What's your point with this, and perhaps more relevantly where's your evidence that this is extraordinary in some way? The largest components of the 'welfare' bill and the health bill are for those over 65, as would be expected. Sacrifices are made both ways.

EDIT: Cue 'They paid into it all their lives' when actually the majority have, even before retirement, drawn more from the system than they put into it. Sorry if I forgot the dogma that when someone retires they automatically paid their way 100% of their life and never drew more in services than they paid in taxes.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

If the majority are taking out more than they put in, it is an unsustainable system.....

The welfare system was designed to help those in need, not to give child tax credits to people earning over £55k (as it used to....).

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Unfortunately the sheeple don't seem to be able to comprehend that. When a politician offers them a utopian prospect they don't ever question who's going to pay for it on the assumption that it will be "The rich"

Buying votes has never been so expensive.:rolleyes:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Well, I can't imagine all the oldies frittering their little "windfall" away on the high life. More likely it will be spent on their kids. Perhaps it is shrewd to pass some of the public purse to the older generation on the basis that they will use it in the manner to which they are accustomed ie with responsibility. And so the circle of economic life completes.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

So why not, you know, just not give it to them but instead simply not have the state tax their kids or borrow more based on their future income to begin with?

This is what would normally be considered a 'conservative' way of thinking.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

It's not just us oldies who "never" contributed anything or pay taxes who benefit from hand outs, have you forgotten help to buy and low mortgage rates ( much lower than I ever paid, I remember it peaking at 15%). I'm still paying my taxes, and to be honest I don't think these bonds are worth bothering with..........get better returns elsewhere.

Plus there have been tax raids on our pension savings by Blair, and interference from Maggie, all whilst looking after their pensions (funded by the taxpayer).

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Hyperbole doesn't actually work, sorry. I was very clear in my comments and didn't for a moment suggest any such thing

Indeed interest rates were higher, with commensurate wage increases, alongside high inflation, the reason for said rates, eroding the real value of the loan rapidly. So while I'm sure it was a shock short-term longer term it was beneficial.

I'm entirely against Help to Buy incidentally, it's another bribe to some electorate alongside being a bung to housebuilders as thanks for their support.

Low mortgage rates I'm also not enthralled by, however these were a function of a rather misguided economic policy continued and exacerbated by the current government. The primary reason for their interference wasn't to bribe a client group of voters, it was to bail out insolvent banks, so more about taking care of the donors.

Indeed. Buy to let is always a good one. Landlord benefit is running at 10 figures a year, then there's the various tax reliefs on it. Majority of landlords are 55+ and loving it. Probably the same grey army who appear pretty much whenever anyone wants to build housing anywhere near their properties. Could both harm the value of their main residence and bring down their rental yield and capital gains.

All of which were horrible policies that have caused grief across the age spectrum. The removal of higher rate pension relief has been a disaster, but wasn't confined to a specific age group.

When a group who, through constant bribery by politicians alongside some good fortune and a bunch of turns of events, continue to receive bribery from said politicians at the expense of a generation who look like they'll be the first one in peace time history to have a lower quality of life than those who came before it seems a fairly good reason to complain about unfairness and more than a little corruption.

That anyone claiming to be a 'conservative' could for a moment support such a policy is beyond comedy. It shows up the Chancellor for what he is - someone whose primary concern is, and always has been, getting re-elected and to hell with actually doing the job he's supposed to be doing. He only actually does that when it's politically expedient.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Also 'Help to Buy' is a scheme designed to prop up artificially high house prices. A better, fairer, scheme would be to dramatically increase the rate of house building in the UK but the Government are wary of increasing the supply too much in case house prices fall.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Or, of course, reducing the number of immigrants flooding in that need to be housed but there's that dastardly EU freedom of movement clause.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Whichever way it's cut, the 'windfall' is just as likely to benefit kids as it is the parents. And it might have more favourable impact as an accumulated benefit.

But, yes, it's politics. I think you have to expect politics from politicians.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

So I have one argument for the policy being that OAPs are in financial strife due to low interest rates, etc, etc, and this is giving something back and another argument that it's cool the money is as likely to be passed on to their kids as it is used by them.

Still not sold but enjoyed the discussion nonetheless.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:43 ----------

Actually even if there were no immigrants coming in at all we'd still not be building enough new houses in England to cope with native population growth and demographic/household size changes but a minor detail.

Perhaps if the chancellor took some cash from his bribery budget and put it back into the housing budget, the one whose budget he swiftly cut by 60%, things would be different, but then his entire economic growth model is based around private debt, much of that being mortgages, hence high house prices.

EDIT: In 1950 the UK was on financial life support and had a population of 50 million yet 300,000 homes a year was achievable.

This kinda thing was a while ago now.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/01/13.jpg

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/01/14.jpg

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Are you really peeved about my generation or are you just arguing for the sake of it?:erm:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Neither. I'm peeved about the thorough shafting under-30s are getting to buy the votes of your generation. A generation that has as I mentioned before had a number of unique successes and benefits that won't be repeated.

As I mentioned in my earlier post also I have enjoyed the discussion but it's probably about done.

Thank you for asking.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

You presented your opinion well and certainly made me think more about it. There may be some solace in the probability that grey votes are not quite so easily purchased :).

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Don't give up..IF those younger than you would get motivated to actually go and vote then maybe they can engineer a change.;)

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

If only. We're in an amazing era where never has it been so difficult for politicians to get away with deception and yet people don't try and be the change, they'd rather whinge online.

Bleh. Back to my freedom of speech work.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Shut your maaaaf.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

No you. :upyours:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

This: I find disturbing, and it's becoming a bit of a mantra now.
What next? Euthanasia for the old so they're not a 'burden'...

I don't normally disagree with ignition but..

I'm reading jealousy? for the older generation (I'm not quite at that stage yet, but in another 20 years I will be)
Why does the younger generation always 'blame' the older for having a better/luckier/nicer deal. It's not like they, any more than you, had any choice about when they were born, or the benefit of any crystal ball to see how things would be better/worse 60 years down the line.
They simply did what everyone in each generation does. They make the best of the situation as it is at that time. It's called Human Nature - don't bitch about them for doing it.

Mr A raised an interesting point. When he pointed out, its as much the people that don't vote that makes the difference, as those who do.

I suggest, instead of getting upset at a whole section of the voting public who actually get up off their arses and vote, you perhaps concentrate your efforts on those 'younger' ones who don't. That way this or any other Government won't see the grey/silver vote as something to be 'bribed' and will focus on another demographic who votes in large numbers instead. Who knows, perhaps it will be your age group next!

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

:clap:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Do read again - I was being sarcastic over what a discussion of my own options would be like.

As far as the rest of your post goes I would point out that I wasn't commenting negatively on them per se but on politicians.

As far as younger generations blaming others go I'd say our younger generations have a right given they're on course to be the first one in recent history, this despite world wars, etc, that'll have a lower quality of life than their parents.

Your reading of jealousy is misplaced.

I don't want 'my' age group to be favoured, I want no age group to be favoured.

I would also question this apparent in-built selfishness between generations. Norway's Sovereign Wealth Fund appears to buck the trend somewhat and there are a number of other countries throughout the world where the inter-generational bond is stronger. The UK is bordering on obsessed with eating its young right now, the selfish 'fatherless males' who whinge about house building near them as it may lower their house price along with those who both buy-to-let and let-to-buy, one largely off the back of house price increases the other entirely, come to mind. However luckily the young are so far blind to it and are just shutting up and paying their landlords' mortgages, pensions (yes even the private ones in many cases as the pension schemes need topping up, which is being done largely via lower wages for existing workers) and tax shortfalls.

If I were in their position I'd probably have a criminal record by now as I would be protesting in a rather more vehement way than expressing irritation on here.

My biggest irritation is their inaction, however given the precarious position many of them are in I understand it to an extent. They are shoved to university to accumulate debt then end up on urine poor wages through an insecure job with uncertain hours paying over the top rents with virtually no security of tenure.

---------- Post added at 15:16 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

Indeed, a great post besides that a good part of it was presumptuous and incorrect. I especially found the comments about jealousy and how it might be my age group next amusing. One assumes I have reason to be jealous, the other that I want to be part of a client group, neither is correct. Any politician that tries bribing me for my vote will be sent away with a fly in their ear :)

Just for clarity as I have said more than once in this and other threads I blame politicians first and last. They are the ones doing the bribery and appeasement of those being unreasonable. It's no surprise that people take advantage of such sycophancy and cowardice.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Aww Well I stand corrected.... but. My point still stands, I've heard it and seen it enough to know that whilst 'you' may not be guilty, there is definitely a tendency, perhaps encouraged tacitly by media that someone other than to politicians is to 'blame' for the current state of affairs. And I'm seeing on forums HYS type things a lot of rhetoric heading towards the 'lets blame the oldies/on benefits people, how dare they live so long, draining our resources... etc

I still believe that the younger generation need to buck up their voting, because it WILL make a difference, I'm also fervently glad I'm not 22 or so now (like my daughter) as I do think it's a horrible time to be young, with house prices being out of reach, comedy car insurance rates, general cost of living etc etc etc.

I'll throw in a left field comment about the Foreign Corruption money - sorry Foreign Aid, that we spend, as it's irking me considerably, I'm sure out of that money, a considerable amount of good could go on something.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Absolutely - couldn't agree more. Another reason I despise Russell Brand, him saying they can achieve nothing.

http://www.if.org.uk/archives/5982/p...-may-bite-back

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I've been voting for 44 years..unfortunately in all that time it's made no difference because those around me haven't wanted a change.I still go out and vote though despite the increasing irritation with those who won't exercise their right.I even vote when I don't really respect any of those who are standing for election. :angel:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Does that mean that you will not be voting?

Don't all politicians say what they believe people want to hear in order to get their votes.

And don't forget, a lot of pensioners pay tax, so the bribe is not at everyone else's expense as you try to claim.

But, beware, you may get what you wish for, so start saving!!;)

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:56 ----------

I suspect a lot of voters feel the same way.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

They should do a 'none of the above' box, so politicians know that people are voting - just not for them, rather than simply not turning up, so its not recorded and assumed to be a 'can't be bothered' voter.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I must be missing the bribes I've received over this Parliament, but I've have a look back through. From what I can see my income tax bill has barely budged, my tax bill as a whole has gone up due to indirect taxation. I receive no payments from the state, receive no subsidies for anything I do.

Regrettably I'm a very boring chap who is paying at least £30k a year, net of all services received both by myself and my daughter, to the government.

The idea that because a lot of pensioners pay tax they aren't getting bribed with other people's money as a cohort is ridiculous. Everyone right down to kids when they purchase some snacks pay indirect taxes. As would be expected the pensioner cohort as a whole are big net recipients of funds. The patterns of receipt from state funds across ages are pretty well established.

I do see your point though - the thread title should've been 'Yet another bribe for OAPs, almost entirely with other people's money'.

I am quite sure I'll get exactly that - by the time I retire the population will be too old, and there won't be enough money to cover the kind of welfare and pensions, public and private, that would be taken for granted now.

The flat rate pension recently introduced ensures that one less thing that would've compensated me for net contributions to the tax man's coffers won't happen. That added to the almost entirely non-contributory nature of the UK's benefit system and the various methods in which the tax and welfare systems punish success make it unsurprising that so much of the UK's population are net recipients.

So if you could point out these bribes I'm apparently getting that'd be appreciated. The past 5 years for me appear to have been 'Take, take, take' and there's nothing that's been announced that indicates the next 5 will be any different.

---------- Post added at 09:57 ---------- Previous post was at 09:56 ----------

They do - spoiled ballots.

I would be very happy with compulsory voting so long as the ability to spoil the ballot were made clear.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Well I've not been bribed either..but when I do get the OAP in May I might just start doing it..after all I've been given BA in the way of bribes from any political since I started voting.Now I'm heading into a fixed income I might just do it.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

So, you're quite well off then really?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Compared to most. Hence jealousy not being my motivation.

I am, quite literally, alright, Jack.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I didn't say that, it was you who chose to talk about "bribes" and pensioners, to the exclusion of all others who are being "bribed".

---------- Post added at 19:25 ---------- Previous post was at 19:23 ----------


Nice to know, so it's OK to attack others in a less fortunate position?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Well, yes, I was discussing a specific policy which was one of the more naked acts of bribery of recent times.

Have a look at a graph I posted earlier. Do compare the under-30s and the over-65s.

Then let's think about the various other wheezes to buy the grey vote.

They have done pretty well, thank you very much, from this Parliament. The numbers speak for themselves. In a time of austerity when cutbacks are being made in various areas the group most protected by direct government cuts has been them.

This is very well documented. Your call if you want to ignore it.

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------

Less fortunate as in having £20,000 to invest?

Try actually reading the thread rather than getting defensive. My vitriol is directed towards largely politicians.

If you have nothing factual to add to the discussion do feel free to add nothing.

EDIT: Just to point out your comment is ridiculous. Many of my comments regard the poor treatment of the under 30s. To say I'm attacking those in a less fortunate position is nonsense.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

I'm so nice I'll even save you some time.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35753234-post38.html

Should be a good start. Look at the % change in disposable income for the 75+ age group, and indeed 65+.

Then look at under-30s.

Home ownership - every cohort bar one seeing their rate dropping, in the case of those under 25 dramatically and those under 35 2nd largest drop, while private tenants passed social ones recently. Over the longer term only 2 demographics saw their rates rise in the 20 year period, the over-55s and over-65s.

Try finding some facts to tell me why it's so unfair that I am annoyed with the contrasting treatment of the two extreme groups, the over 65s and the under 30s and I'll happily change my views.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Point of information - it's not £20k per year, it's £20k in total, with £10k in the 1 year bond, and £10k (maximum) in the 3 year bond.

And also, the comment on your linked stat above It could also suggest a rise in people in that age group blowing their disposable income on other things, like most of the ones in Leeds you can see in trendy bars at the top of Briggate or around the Trinity Arcade/Calls Lane/Corn Exchange on a Thursday/Friday/Saturday night...;)

Some interesting stats here - http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/57...ts-and-graphs/

I found this one informative, as it reflects my own experiences..

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/01/10.jpg

So perhaps we didn't have it as easy as is stated, with mortgage payments over 50% of salary....

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Ah thank you Hugh. My mistake. Amended.

See how that works, bonzoe? I'm given a factual statement that shows I'm incorrect, I accept it and amend accordingly. Please feel free to repeat Hugh's correction with some facts of your own :tu:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I must say I don't know any pensioners who have £20k to invest but I suspect they'll be quite a few former politicians who will fit into that category thanks to their rather generous perks and pensions.

Anyway as beneficiaries of deliberate govt. policy go, I'd say borrowers have had some very favourable treatment at the expense of savers. The savings they've made on their mortgages etc. will be far in excess of anything the pensioners are now entitled to via this scheme.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Those weren't being taken directly out of taxation / added onto borrowing as this is.

They were also not, primarily, for that purpose, but to avoid banks going insolvent and keep the UK's gilt interest rate down.

Not comparable.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

It's being able to get to the position where you can get a mortgage which is one of the biggest issues. House prices are growing much faster than wages and as has been said this is pushing the average age of the first time buyer much higher. It depends where in the country you are of course but it's simply unaffordable for the 'average wage' in a lot of areas.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Y'know ignition, I'm quite happy for the older generation to get something from the public purse. I wouldn't refer to it as a bribe though, I would call it a deserved gift :).

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Would you mind explaining why it is 'deserved'?

I think we've already gone down this route and you were unable to previously, but I'd more than welcome it.

Again, there are a few points of view that are entirely at odds and being used to counter what I've said. I'm genuinely struggling to see any coherent case being put forward but instead emotive arguments that they appear to boil down to that they are deserving because they're older.

---------- Post added at 08:34 ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 ----------

Flipside though is that that graph is skewed heavily by the drop in home ownership rates among younger, and hence less wealthy demographics. Slice off the top 20%+ at one extreme and you inevitably end up with something more flattering.

The jump in percentage of income consumed by mortgage repayments was a brief, one-off event as a result of the disastrous dalliance with the ERM. This had a few effects, it did indeed cause an interest rate spike, which both spiked mortgage payments and, however, eroded the value of principle very quickly.

It's pretty scary looking at that graph, actually. Mortgage rates are about as low as they could be, there're still tons of interest-only mortgages, there are only 1/3rd the number of under-25s and half the number of under-35s on the ladder yet mortgage payments are still 1/3rd of income.

Keeping the interest rates so low is both holding prices high and leaving no real inflation to erode the principle.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Because they have a responsible attitude toward money and can be trusted to use whatever little extra they get wisely. It is only a few bob they're getting in their twilight years; they still won't be as well off as you :D

Have you noticed that although you have put quite a bit of effort into your argument, you've not managed to carry one voice in support? I know that doesn't change your view but it seems to be a minority view both here and in general.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Ah the feckless youth argument, because clearly fecklessness is an entirely new thing over the past.... hang on, older generations have been calling younger ones feckless since time immemorial. How far back are we needing to go?

I'll remind anyone who comments about those who are of working age on welfare that it's just a few quid and they still won't be as well off as those making the comments.

Some more help for those under 30 to help them be more productive in society would still leave most of them not as well off as me; it would however have the bonus that the country would be more successful as a whole. Our young will be propping up the ponzi scheme at some point.

I've noticed that only one poster has actually posted anything substantial in rebuttal - which speaks volumes.

I have actually had support, though in private rather than public.

It seems to be one of those emotive debates where people have sincerely held opinions but no or very little data to actually back those opinions up.

Regrettably I'm a big fan of data. I don't give people huge amounts of kudos for remaining alive, that's a pretty basic human instinct.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

yes, we can agree on somethings, it IS an emotive issue, as are so many things in life. Life is not based on data but emotions, what is love? How is that explained in pure data, it may be possible but it is beyond me.

As you say, each and every generation has called the younger generation feckless, but in my feckless years I did not begrudge the older generation their "benefits".

Perhaps I have a more caring attitude to life than your admitted "I'm alright Jack" stance.:angel:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Not directly comparable but equally unfair to one group of people - which is the point I was making. You may care more about losing £££'s to a 'bribe' than a necessary 'policy' but the financial result is the same for a group of people who've done nothing wrong.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Commenting further would feel like Groundhog Day :dozey:.

There are bigger fish to fry than a small benefit for our mums and dads.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

:tu:

For some reason images of Bliar and Brown come to mind... :D

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Oh I see, so I've gone from being jealous to 'I'm alright Jack' now that it's clear I have no reason to be jealous.

Although if I'm alright it does beg the question of why I'm repeatedly raising the plight of the under-30s.

Anything else you'd care to try in this 'discussion'? So far we've had jealousy and selfishness. What's next on the list? :)

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:22 ----------

A lot of things are unfair. That's life. Intentionally making them more unfair is an entirely different matter.

Maybe you could explain why, if it's been all that bad for those on fixed incomes, the largest increase in disposable income in percentage terms between 2008 and 13 was in the over-75 age group?

Sorry, again, I'm bringing facts into the discussion. I really must stop.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

It would. Thank you for proving my point by, again, being unable to back up your opinion with anything.

If you can actually come up with some decent reasons why they 'deserve' the various bungs they've been given this Parliament while the under-30s see an unprecedented drop in their disposable income, yes the same under-30s who'll be paying for any state-provided healthcare and welfare benefits when we retire, we can certainly revisit.

As it is everyone is entitled to their opinions, I'm entitled to say that I think their opinions are nonsense and ask for something to back them up.

It's all good.

EDIT: The below runs both ways, incidentally. I got something wrong and Hugh picked me up on it :)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2015/01/9.jpg

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I really just don't feel inclined, or see the need, to back up my opinion. I'm happy with the policy; that's as far as it goes for me. You're not visiting your angst upon me Iggy :)

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

That is fair enough! Nothing to work with or disagree with. To each their own and all that.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Pensioner bond scheme to be extended.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-31241867

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Comments on that BBC article if sorted by 'Highest Rated' are interesting.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

The comments are swayed by the analysis unlike here where no-one bit on your anti-parental stance. Leave our oldies alone :p:

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

I agree with Ignitionnet. It's not anti-parental either. It's being against giving one sector of society increased benefits and spending, which is essentially what this is, whilst you're cutting services for others. I don't see the justification giving better than market rate for pensioners' savings when your cutting housing and job seekers allowance for young people.

Labour are often accused of wanting to spend all the time but that's what this is, it's just targeting a different demographic.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Well I don't agree with job seekers allowances, working tax credits, child benefit, housing benefit etc etc but I just have to suck it up. The welfare system has become a lifestyle choice. The £26k cap is more than a lot of people earn. And whilst we're at it all that DLA and the like needs reviewing.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

While giving taxpayers' cash to people who can afford to save to boost their interest rates is fine, welfare in general to help out the poorest in society is bad, and allowances to help the disabled 'need reviewing'.

Not only giving taxpayers' cash to people who can afford to save, of course, but also restricting it to a single age group while attempting to pass it off as encouraging prudence and saving, as presumably a particular demographic need more encouragement.

It's an interesting point of view for sure.

Some might say a rather extreme and intensely unfair one.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

wouldn't be so bad if it was helping the poorest pensioners, what do they get out of this tax payer funded give away?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Some might say pensioners are/have been taxpayers too (and are being 'bribed' with their own money). Some might say there are those who choose not to work and therefore not to contribute but who are heaped with layers of benefit and that that is intensely unfair.

It's a deep rabbit hole.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Understood.

All retiree welfare good as they've all contributed more than their share and it's their own money, all working age welfare bad as none of them have contributed anything. Apart from welfare for the disabled, that needs reviewing as it's potentially bad.

---------- Post added at 08:15 ---------- Previous post was at 08:12 ----------

You may get a kick out of the views of the Conservative MP for Bracknell. Someone else with an 'anti-parental' stance it seems.

This obviously ignoring those oldie-haters on the BBC article.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/02/13.png

They have a great point - the Chancellor is full of it on this one and should be offering this to everyone or, better yet, the Bank of England should quit with the 'emergency' low interest rates and start trying to return us to some semblance of normality a step at a time.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Agreed. In the meantime the benefit from pensioner bonds is a drop in the ocean imho. :)

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Which isn't, in any way, the point. As far as I'm aware never has been so I apologise for the confusion if I did make it.

It may be a 'drop in the ocean' but it's more than the combined savings of reducing the welfare cap from £26k to £23k and removing housing benefit from 18-21 year olds on JSA.

I rarely do this but I go along with the Tory MP on this one as he put his thoughts in a more erudite way than I can. Giving the impression of taking from the young and poor to give to the older and wealthier isn't good.

It seems an odd position to be against welfare for the poor but be fine with welfare for the relatively wealthy, so long as they are the right age, but each to their own.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

But it's not a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul. Unless you feel that as a non-beneficiary of either bonds or benefits, I am being stitched up. Perhaps the MP could argue my case for me...

And how can I politely conclude and withdraw without antagonising you :)?

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

We're all in it together, there's no money left, we need austerity to balance the books, etc, etc. Tuition fees, removal of EMA, welfare cuts and this. It's absurd to suggest there aren't limited resources and the decision was made to allocate them in this way.

The Torygraph hit the nail on the head.

Your withdrawing in any manner you see fit isn't going to antagonise me.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

The bill for handouts to drunks and druggies is more than the interest pensioners can expect. Those who self inflict their own pain can go whistle for all I care.

Re: Osborne's 'Pensioner bonds' - bribing OAPs with everyone else's money
 

Benefits the comfortable to well-off pensioners, but the poor with no savings there is no benefit.