Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Off to a flying start it would seem.

"The Conservatives have been accused of using “dishonesty as a weapon” after making inaccurate claims that the Government had halved Britain’s deficit.

The claim – contained in the party’s first general election campaign poster – was branded a “fib” and condemned as deceptive even by right-leaning commentators.

What was intended to be the smooth launch of the new year Conservative message on the economy rapidly unravelled just hours after David Cameron had unveiled the poster which is due to go up on billboards across the country.

Under the headline “Let’s stay on the road to a stronger economy”, the poster goes on to list the Government’s achievements of “1.75 million more people in work”, “760,000 more businesses” and “the deficit halved”.

But the final claim was immediately debunked by the normally supportive Spectator magazine."

The indy.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

oh wow, what a shock.
A political party using statistics to show themselves in a better light than the opposition want us to believe.
It will be the other side doing exactly the same next week.

I am bored of this campaign already.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Well the GMB union were happy with the definition, along with the Office for Budget Responsibility.
From GMB Nottingham site

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Nomadking. You neglected to highlight the "Relative to GDP" element from the sentence on the GMB site (which is also the ratio / comparator used by the OBR in the section quoted by the GMB on their site).

That is part of the issue.

From the Independent article:

"I don’t dispute that the ratio is widely accepted and more useful to economists, but a deficit/GDP ratio is different to ‘the deficit’ which is measured in pounds,” Mr Nelson wrote. “If you want to talk about the ratio, you need to say so – otherwise the sentence is a porkie."

On the matter of quoting from the OBRs EFO relevant to the Autumn statement I refer you to an earlier post of mine on the matter from December 5th 2014 here:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/35745138-post5.html

"What very few people have picked up on - aside from perhaps the IFS - is the fact that the EFO (Economic and Fiscal Oultook) report from the OBR (Office for Budgetary Responsibility) which Osborne relied upon and used selectively in his Autumn Statement contained the following statement;

"During the week before publication we produced our final forecast, incorporating the third quarter GDP data released by the ONS on 26 November and the final package of policy measures. We were provided with final details of most major policy decisions with a potential impact on the economy forecast on 25 November.

These were incorporated into our final economy forecast. On 28 November, we were provided Economic and fiscal outlook with details of changes to spending plans in 2015 - 16 – and the Treasury’s assumption for total spending growth from 2016-17 onwards – that would have had an effect on our economy forecast had they been provided in time. This has meant that in this EFO unfortunately our economy and fiscal forecasts are not fully consistent."

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

It was still using the term "deficit". If there are two possible meanings for a term in a particular area, eg economics, then a different term should be used for each meaning, or use of the term is preceded by another word to distinguish its full meaning.

Ed Milliband thinks things should be measured against GDP.
So according to Ed Milliband, not borrowing means ALWAYS borrowing, even when there is a budget surplus.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Pretty sure when referencing the deficit people think of the amount over income we're spending per year.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Admittedly I only had a quick scan through the odious Mr Miliband's speech but I didn't see any reference to GDP as a ratio for measurement in relation to the deficit.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Didn't say it did, but he DOES refer to national debt as a %age of GDP. If GDP goes up, then he is intending to borrow MORE and it will still fulfil his statement. Would people fully understand that? He is happy to measure borrowing & debt against GDP. If GDP went down, would he therefore reduce borrowing and debt? Of course not. Isn't that very misleading?

If the original report had referred to "X deficit", where X distinguishes the meaning and "X" had been left out, then that would have been misleading. The report used the term on its own. Either that was acceptable usage or different term should have been used. Is there a more correct term, consisting of one or two words?

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Where in his speech does he refer to national debt as a percentage of GDP?

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

I did put it in quotes, but here it is again.
If GDP is rising then it will achieve that all by itself.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Sorry, but are "National income" and "GDP" not two different things?

This area is not my forte.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Replace my usage of "GDP" with "National income" and the statements are STILL true.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

That would only lead to more confusion. Your usage of "GDP" and Miliband's non usage of "GDP" are, just like "GDP" and "National income", two different things.

As i said previously, this area is not my forte. We are, however, meandering off the thread subject of the Tories having come in for criticism having launched their campaign manifesto using some apparently questionable figures.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Replace where I have said "GDP" with "National Income" and my statements still hold as I was referring to what he said. As "National Income" goes up, the national debt as a %age of it, will tend to go down. As it varies up and down, it is meaningless to measure things against GDP or National Income. When at some point, National Income actually goes down, would he still reduce the national debt as a %age of it? That would involve massive cutbacks and/or tax rises.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

You said GDP, not Miliband. That was my point.

I'm not that "up" on economics so I can't vouch for or dispute with any degree of self certainty your macro economic analysis.

However, given your assertion "As it varies up and down, it is meaningless to measure things against GDP or National Income" I think it's pointess to hypothesize about what Miliband may or may not do in the circumstances you have outlined.

Best let him give the electorate enough rope to hang him with if his statements don't add up as seems to be the case with the Tories.

Now, back to the topic please.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Well slap me with a wet kipper, Liebour complaining that some one has lied :LOL:

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Well politicians of all parties lie so its nothing new.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Anyone who believes anything that comes out of the mouth of a politician is generally going to be let down.

I find it best to assume they all lie, and all make promises they will never keep.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

:clap:

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Crap poster - they should have used this one.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

It's actually the most important measure. We are rated by our debt to GDP ratio, dependent on GDP, and by the increase or decrease in this ratio.

It would be considered by the financial markets a reduction in our national debt to be running a deficit which is smaller than the level of GDP growth, and hence reducing our overall ratio.

The USA isn't considered bankrupt by credit agencies despite carrying a $17.8 trillion national debt, 7 times ours, thanks to having a GDP 7 times ours.

Doesn't change that deciding to switch measures at the last minute for politically motivated reasons is cynical and deceptive. A bit like a George Osborne budget.

---------- Post added at 13:47 ---------- Previous post was at 13:43 ----------

From what I can gather even a number of Conservative supporters are describing it as deception. To say it's just Labour viewing this dimly isn't really accurate.

You could hardly call Fraser Nelson of The Spectator Labour.

Still if we're going to talk about ratios throughout let's discuss GDP per capita and see how the recovery is going based on that most important measure rather than relying on immigration for 'growth' :)

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Past caring now.

At this stage I'd be surprised if how anyone votes in May would be influenced by the bollocks sprouted forth in the next several months.

Bottom line for me is, I trust the Torys with the economy more than Labour, simple as that.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Well, l cannot wait till election day. Up till then. We are going to see loads of crap and bull from every party going.

Obviously Cameron will say - vote for us, as we have achieved an economy that is on the up (apart from the severe welfare cuts, big bonus's for his mates, cut's into LAS, police and even the armed services, and now using volunteers to save money)

Labour will say, we will invest in the NHS, give this and that.

Nick Farage, will say everything - that the voters WILL believe, ad this is what the voters want.

Me, I will vote for the Monster Raving Looney party

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

'Nick Farage'?

Has someone cross-bred Nigel Farage and Nick Clegg?

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

That would be Frankenstien's potwór.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

I doubt anything would be different with the economy no matter who was in charge, who caused the boom and bust Gordon claimed to have rescued us from for instance, fact is regarding the economy no party offers anything other ideological tampering around the fringes

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Anyone who votes based on the excretia fest we're about to endure deserves what they get as so much twisting of statistics and misrepresentation is heading our way again. Far as the economy is concerned none of them can truly be trusted as the Tories still can't answer the question of how many full time full pay jobs they have actually created. Promise me again George how you'll have the deficit sorted after the next parliamentary session as you were supposed to have done by the time of this election. Sorry that wasn't fair George has been very busy stitching up tax let offs over a very nice lunch and selling stuff off to his mates who've done very nicely out of this coalition. I'm sure there are absolutely no directorships sorted out for this lot when they get the boot and they will be happy to take the same employment opportunity's they have created for so many.

Trouble is there is no one any better to vote for which is why this will be the first general election in my adult life that I won't be voting in and please no one tell me if I don't vote I don't have the right to moan because voting has done so much for us all the only right we truly do have anymore is the one to moan and complain. The last few bunches of jokers posing as politicians have turned so many off its beyond a joke they are only in it for what they can get out of It hardly a genuine public servant left.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

The new, rebalanced economy as promised in 2010.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/01/17.png

Okay perhaps not but 'rebalancing' was a nice buzzword. Should explain why the City still gets its booty kissed by politicians too.

As far as recovery goes, Osborne should be grateful for migration, it saved him from a double-dip recession.

Good reason why we're all not feeling the impact of the 'recovery' too, it's all in the numbers.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2015/01/18.png

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Do these politician think we are idiots, they just change the way they report stats to suit themselves.

That's why people have had enough tbh.

This is comical

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rknk...ature=youtu.be

Glad to see some people have woken up and don't fall for this tosh.

---------- Post added at 12:44 ---------- Previous post was at 12:40 ----------

Tories are the biggest liars out there, just watch this one in action!

Criminals and murderers no other word for them. IDS certainly getting away with murder pardon the pun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4R91...JZAz8o5putrMYw

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

ALL parties will come out with any old crap. Sadly, the Conservatives are after one thing. To save money.

What we have here is that at the present time. And l look at it this way. This country is entitled to a decent living standard.

OAPs are treated in a disgraceful manner, the NHS is in decline. Today Boris has said that he will be making MORE cut bacls to front line servces by 2020 - why.

We have an incease in the amount for Foodbanks, we have people that are made redundant - no fault of there own.
We are going back years as people cannot afford to live, The UK should NOT be in this position. This country is wealthy, yet the residents, are now in poverty.

YET, Cameron is proud that the UK is sending BILLONS of our Tax money to oversea;s countries.

We vote MPs into power. I would NOT trust the Tories, as far as l can spit.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

I am glad you are volunteering to pay more taxes, Arthur, as when the Government spends money, it's your tax money they are spending....

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

If you're in the 40% with a household income high enough and drawings from the state low enough to be making a positive contribution of course.

If in the 60% in practical terms it's other people's money a person is advocating spending.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Hugh, its so nice to hear from you. I want to live in a real world where the government is looking after me and my family.

I do NOT want to live in poverty, we area rich country. But the way we are going, the world be a 'third world' country, Yes, l don't mind paying more tax.

I retire in two years time, l don't want to live on a crap pension. And depend on handouts from Food Banks to survive.

I was brought up in poverty, and want to maintain a good living like l am - do l have money - No. I work in the public sector and my wages are crap. But l still manage.

My Bills go up each month - but my wages don't. Last month, my wife took us to the end (without any presents) on an overdraft leaving just £2.00 before being charged extra money for going over the Overdraft Limit.

And yet, l have been paying tax all my life - been out of work three times, and had to live on benefits, which was lousy.

I am angry at the way Cameron / Clegg is treating us the voters, and what l read in the papers each day. Cameron if he has his way, will take us back to the days of food stamps, and have to pay for GP visits.

While he hands out OUR money to other countries, and prides himself in doing it.

He has no worries about crime on our streets, as his gets 24 hour police protection. So roll on May

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

And it's always easy to advocate spending someone else's money.....

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

The entire issue in a nutshell I feel.

---------- Post added at 20:42 ---------- Previous post was at 20:42 ----------

Isn't it?

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

Quite.

That really is it, isn't it?

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

I want to live in a world where the state has the minimum involvement in the lives of it's citizens where everyone that is able is working in a properly paid job and is able to take care of things for themselves with only those that through no fault of their own are reliant on the state. Back on planet reality I'll settle for politicians that serve the needs and requirements of the nation and it's citizens oh damn I said planet reality :erm:.

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

I want to live in a country where the state looks after those who can't as opposed to those who won't...

Re: Tories accused of lying in campaign poster that claims deficit has halved.
 

l can't disagree with that RK.