How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Interesting.

"Atheists and humanists are increasingly being targeted as distinct minorities in “hate campaigns” across the globe, according to a new report which found that religious and political leaders are ratcheting up rhetoric against those who believe there is no God.


The report claims that the “hate speech” against atheists does not come exclusively from reactionary or radical religious leaders, but increasingly from political leaders, including heads of state."


Indy.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

What a bonkers planet we live on.... and what a bonkers planet religious people live on.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

More.

In 13 sovereign states where the religion of peace reigns supreme it's a capital offence to not be a Muslim.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I swear. it's got to be something they're eating.

I just hope for their sakes that someone comes up with an antidote.

For the record. there is no God. you've eaten something that has made you ill. that's all :)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Yes Taf what a bonkers planet with live on. I thought the Nazis were dead and buried. Religious nutters every where!

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Or NOT eating. I don't trust anyone who doesn't like bacon:D

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Deny me bacon and beer and I'm likely to go a bit mad and set about jihad.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

i think God is mans worst invention :(

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Another slow news day.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

It seems to be Muslims being against all non-Muslim beliefs or non-beliefs. The only mention of a non Muslim faith is Christianity, where I'm sure that the use of the word "fight" is not meant in the violent sense.

The thread title is wrong. It is NOT the right to deny the existence of God that is under threat, but the denial of Allah.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Amen to that.

death everywhere.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

oh my buddah

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Which one? At last count there are upwards of 3,000 of them to choose from :p:

---------- Post added at 09:03 ---------- Previous post was at 08:58 ----------

Oh dear.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Right, so:

- "across the globe" is actually a selection of the usual Islamic suspects.
- The "report" is a campaigning document written by a lobby group with an obvious self interest, the International Humanist and Ethical Union.
- The Indy is very happy to promulgate the notion that an intellectual, philosophical or evangelical attack on a belief or a set of ideas, is to be equated with the denial of rights.
- The IHEU appears to have tried to use Scotland as a fig leaf to avoid a charge of Islamophobia. Does it really see a moral equivalence between faith schools in Scotland and the denial of identity documents, forced adoptions and executions of atheists in certain Islamic states?

Apart from that, top marks.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

There you go. that's how silly it is. all 3,000 of them silly.

my niece was doing her homework the other day. she had to fill in the blanks from a list of words provided on a separate page.
it was about Mohammed and Mecca.

apart from her noticing that Mohammed was also spelt as Muhammed on the page. she asked how come they call God something else when his name is God?

I told her about God being like Father Xmas and the tooth fairy.
she's gonna love telling everybody that there's over 3,000 Gods when I tell her now.

and a lot more confused than she naturally is with being blonde.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

^ :D

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

LOL
I've just sent it to her on her ipad :)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Good to see you read the report before you judged it.

Oh wait, no you didn't. Had you done so you'd have noted criticisms of varying degrees leveled against states throughout the world, with Scotland and the UK stuck in mid-table obscurity, and with no 'campaign aim' other than secularism - the equal treatment of all regardless of belief with special privilege for none.

Gee how very wicked and selfish. Can't have those horrid atheists / Christians / Muslims / Buddhists / Hindus delete as appropriate having the same rights and privileges as those Christians / Muslims / Buddhists / Hindus / delete as appropriate the state favours.

As far as this comment goes:

I'm not going to respond to in any depth as a considerable proportion of said reply would be caught by the swear filter.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Do get off your high horse Carl. The OP quoted a newspaper article. I replied to him, including his quote and his thread title, in which the ludicrous phrase "right to deny the existence of God" features prominently.

I have better things to do with my time than to study the special pleading of evangelical humanists. But I'm not the first person to criticise someone else's beliefs without bothering to read the source text first, am I?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Read this forum and you'll see how there is no 'global threat' to the right to deny the existence of God.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

when exactly did this forum start to represent a world view of anything

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Is there any threat on here? On other forums? Out in the street? At your work? If not then I don't consider it a 'global threat'.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

For a minute there. I thought that we on this forum were the global brain and control centre.

Religion is global.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

But the 'threat' to the right to deny God is not.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

So those with a naturalistic leaning are threatened (not right)? Yet many are still determined to enforce that faith position on all and sundry without censure.

All faith positions should be able to safely state and promote their views. And that would include in schools and government. No single faith position should use the tools of rule to deny rights to those of another faith position.

This is the separation of state and "church" that the US founding fathers wanted. What has happened is that those of "no faith" insist that you can't express any other "faith" in "public" jobs and organisations and use the separation clause as their right to so demand.

I'd back anyone to follow whatever faith they want (within the bounds of "common" law - child sacrifice is out) and the right to evangelise. After all I want that right to tell others about Jesus.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

but what if we don't want to told about Jesus?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Are we referring to many here as a fixed number or a large proportion of those with a 'naturalistic leaning'? If a fixed number then it depends what you define as 'many'. If a large proportion I'd say that's nonsense and you're conflating it with secularism. The two are very different. The view that no-one should believe in God and those who do should have atheism 'enforced' on them is one I'm not actually aware of anyone holding. I'm sure there are some nutters who think people should be forced into atheism however they are precisely that - nutters.

The intro to the report, despite its obvious focus on those without faith, makes precisely that point.

I'm not aware of secularists complaining about such promotion of views in the UK. More when a privileged place is given to such views that there become issues - such as reserved places for bishops in the Lords - or when religion is influencing public policy. So long as it's kept in the appropriate place, religious education, it's all good.

Secularism does not entail the banning of religion in any way, shape or form. That would be some hideous authoritarian atheist state which no right-minded person would want.

The UK is not the USA and was not founded on secular principles. I can't speak for any other country.

Agreed - of course.

Really?

The amendment specifically mentions 'respecting an establishment of religion'. Not only preventing negatives for those of different faiths by 'prohibiting the free exercise thereof', but any positives for those of the appropriate faith.

All of us? Really? Expression of faith and making laws based on it are very different things. I'm indifferent to the first unless it threatens the second. In actual fact objections arise when a single faith is promoted over others. This causes issues in the USA for obvious reasons - Christianity is by far the most observed faith.

It's relatively recently, in fact, that the belief that the USA is a Christian nation has come about. The Treaty of Tripoli is unequivocal.

A breach of this principle was remedied not by removal of the Christian aspect but by permitting other faiths to add their own - equal treatment for different faiths, something you are in favour of.

People in public positions in the USA express faith all the time. Non-stop. However the law keeps this out of schools to avoid breaking the 'respecting an establishment of religion' phrase.

Again I refer you to the below, this time from the BHA:

There is nothing in there that says that people in public life should not discuss their religious beliefs, quite the opposite it specifically mentions a society with a pluralism of religious ways of life.

This is a national charity representing the non-religious. I'm sure you can find people who shout down religion, I can find people who think I'm going to burn in hell for blasphemy, there are extremes on both sides.

I would have a read of the Jefferson Bible. It's fascinating and presents an interesting viewpoint on one of the founding fathers' opinions of evangelism.

I couldn't care less and you are more than welcome to evangelise to me all you want. There have been ~3,000 deities that we know about, all followed by those confident that theirs is the right one, and nearly all followed by those who wish to evangelise.

We're all atheists to 3,000-ish gods, I just have an extra one on my score. I'm sure we can all get along regardless so long as we're not being Richards to one another, and I do love our chats, tweetie. :)

---------- Post added at 13:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:49 ----------

You ignore it or politely ask the person telling you to either talk about something else or go elsewhere.

We all have people talking at us about things we've no interest in from time to time, some extremely enthusiastically. Many companies have people who actually have 'evangelist' in their job titles for example. :)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

It comes down to degree: when you have people coming uninvited into your personal space then that is over the line, for example, knocking on your door to promote their specific faith.

Everyone should be entitled to declare their faith or non-faith in a respectful way and in an appropriate context. Of course, there is no consensus on what is respectful and appropriate and therein lies the rub ..

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Indeed.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

You are currently inviting them (and anyone else) to come to your door.

If you place a sign on your gate, door etc removing the implied right to access then you can have them prosecuted. That should be enough for you I imagine.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

so now there's a right to god bother people in their own home

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Unless you put a sign on your property removing the implied right to access, people can come to your door. This why salespeople, canvassers, leaflet-droppers etc are allowed to do so, as well as evangelicals.

Putting up such a signs then leaves them liable to prosecution if they ignore it.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

GOD BOTHERERS WILL BE SHOT -is that the sort of thing you mean ;)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

The issue is not whether they can, it is whether they should. I think that most people would not want them to knock on their door. In the same way, most people do not want (number withheld) telephone cold callers to ring them.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

You're not allowed to shoot them.
the copper told me.

A thing I've always wondered is.
are these "God botherers" aware that they could be knocking on. and bothering a fellow "God botherer"?

Why do they feel that everyone besides themselves have never heard of Jesus? and assume that you haven't let him into your heart already?

Why do they come out at Xmas time?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Try it and see.

Do you have any statistics for that or does it just fit in with your view?

---------- Post added at 20:13 ---------- Previous post was at 20:12 ----------

There you go, things to ask them the next time they come 'bothering' you.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

They work me out straight away. I never get anything out of them.

Not being funny. but when you ask if he's got a mobile or an email address I can get him on. they tell me in their own special way. that it's all done by telepathy.

the man needs to move with the times and get internet access or an iphone.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

An opinion: the majority of people are against cold calling.

If you like strangers knocking on your door or ringing your phone and trying to sell you something that:

a) you have not asked for
b) do not want

then good for you but I believe that most people do not.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

but if their on my property and i feel under threat[ globally]as an atheist ,i can use proportional force to defend myself .

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

If shooting them is proportional, I wouldn't want to see you when you are angry :)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

The force has to be proportional to that threatened against you. If Christians or JWs come to your door, you're going to have to restrict yourself to trying to smile them to death. Admittedly it seems the law would allow you to deploy a suicide vest if you came face to face with an Islamonutcase Jihadi.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

In other words it just fits in with your view, fair enough.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

please tell me they don't do house calls ;)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I've posted on here many times that we have JW that call round regularly. Very nice people, they pass over the Watch Tower and Awake and we have a general chit chat. They leave happy, I don't mind, and I have jolly good chuckle reading the literature they gave me.

There's no need for confrontation or to be rude.

As was mentioned, if I didn't want them to bother me I could put a big sign ion the door, or indeed ask them at there next visit not to bother.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Seeing as there is no 'global threat', at least not in the UK you'd have to explain why you had a gun in your house.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

target practice and pest control ;)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Best way to deal with JW or Church of the Latter Day Saints is to not answer the door OR to just shut the door on them.. No need for any confrontation.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Nice and polite, the best of British to you!

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

and many, many others ... except you. Maybe every one else can chip in: who likes cold callers and who does not?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

We used to get them at our door until I stuck a sign up. Not heard from them since.... Thank God! :D

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Cable Forum isn't anywhere near an accurate representation of "everyone", and I've not said I like having cold callers - you're just being defensive now. I'm just asking whether you have any facts to back up your claim or it merely fits in with your opinion.

As a point of interest in a previous job I used to "cold call" people by phone a good few years back but not in the way you'd think. It was social research by the government which is something that nobody is permitted to opt-out from (even ex-directory or TPS-registered people) but are allowed to not participate in once we told them what it was about. I can't produce figures from back then but of all the calls I made I'd estimate a good 90% or more gave no indication of disliking us, hostility, disapproval, aggressiveness etc.

---------- Post added at 08:31 ---------- Previous post was at 08:30 ----------

That's exactly what I do, I also have a sticker on my door saying "No junk mail, flyers or menus".

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

There is an important difference between most of the cold callers and the religious ones and that is that it is personal: the evangelists that will knock on your door are there because they have decided you need "saving". They have judged you (in your absence) and found you wanting. The arrogance is beyond belief ..

---------- Post added at 09:22 ---------- Previous post was at 09:12 ----------

I'd like you to repeat that exercise but working for an TPS ignoring offshore company that rings people more than once a day, using pre-recorded messages selling insurance, etc. or that have foreign call centres employing staff who you find hard to understand what they are saying plus they are ringing you during antisocial hours using telephone lines where the number is withheld so you cannot ring back and complain.

Then ask if they like you ...

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

That goes with what I said. a lot of them think they're an authority on it all. an authority on something that a lot of people believe is just in your imagination. something that you want to be true. but really isn't.

and by you not using your imagination and 'believing' that something that isn't real. is infact real. are being 'globally' looked upon as a bad sport.

play the game or we kill you.

Lord show thouself!
maketh all men believers.
donteth test us.
your test is getting people in their miilions maimed and killed.
put an end to mans evil. and stop the killing in your name by showing yourself!

Amen.

P.S.
Why create the life of a baby. and taketh that life away within seconds?
what was the point of that?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

[QUOTE=Russ;35746551]Cable Forum isn't anywhere near an accurate representation of "everyone", and I've not said I like having cold callers - you're just being defensive now. I'm just asking whether you have any facts to back up your claim or it merely fits in with your opinion.

it was when it suited
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ
Read this forum and you'll see how there is no 'global threat' to the right to deny the existence of God.

---------- Post added at 09:36 ---------- Previous post was at 09:33 ----------

hate em-their at the door or on the phone all the time :mad:

---------- Post added at 09:38 ---------- Previous post was at 09:36 ----------

I DON'TETH COS I DON'TETH EXISTETH wooooooooeth woooooooooeth ;)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Aa opposed to the arrogance of Virgin Media sales people who have decided you "need" their service rather than Sky?

I'm sure they won't; however you said 'cold callers', I wasn't aware that you cherry-pick the ones you don't mind as much.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Did you tell them you have to listen to me. or was they allowed to shut you off before you finished your script?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Sorry but they have created the confrontation by knocking on my door. I have a sign on my gate telling them not to call but sadly they cannot read or chose to have a confrontation with me.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

If people ignore a sign on your property then they're clearly in the wrong however if it's worded correctly (ie stating you are removing all implied rights to access) it should tell them they are risking prosecution by breaching it.

I'm sure the next line from some would be "But why should I have to go to all the effort of writing out a sign etc", in which case bear in mind it would also apply to bailiffs (without a court order) and TV licences inspectors (also without a warrant).

In fact the only people who are exempt from such a notice would be the postman, emergency service personnel or someone executing a court order.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

that's because like all book thumpers they totally disrespect you and your wishes ,they are going to get their point across if it kills them, they can't help it though they are programmed from birth to seek out none believers and inflict religion into their lives if they want it or not .

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Hand on heart that has to be the most comical post I've ever seen on Cable Forum.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I am not cherry picking .. these are the type that ring me. VM and Sky, to quote your examples, do not ...

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Were you not talking about evangelicals knocking on your door?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Yes together with other cold callers ..

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

OK, so I'm talking about the Virgin Media ones who try to convert people from Sky, Free view etc?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I'm afraid this thread has gone onto another existential plane...........

Helter skelter, helter skelter ..........wibble

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Some people are saying that when a baby dies. it's God's will.

when the sexual predator who was convicted of the sexual battery of a nine-year-old boy who won $3 million (£1.9 million) on the lottery. is also God's will.

and that is why people should be allowed to not believe in God. and his wills. and not be globally victimised for doing so.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

And others have breathtaking ignorance of what people truly believe so just make it up as they go along.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Some people say that God can't be watching everything.
he's too busy watching people suffering, dying and being murdered.
the "test" thing.

When that baby dies. we feel comfort. knowing that it is Gods will.

and that is why people should be allowed to not believe in God. his wills and his tests. and not be globally victimised for doing so.

What is the test with the sexual predator who won the lottery?
do we present forgiveness in the form of a cheque.
do we love thou fellow man and pat him on the back.
would it be frowned upon by God himself to punch him in the nose and say no you can't have the money?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Nobody is being globally victimised for not believing in any deity, and indeed neither should they be.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

there's lots of those places around the globe :(

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

That's like saying because some men rape women there are lots of rapists around the world.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

is it ?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Yes. The fact there are places around the globe does not make it 'global' in the way that because some men rape women does not make men 'rapists'.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

is that so ?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Just 'some' men.
and globally is spread around the globe. not every street and alleyway.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

And just 'some' countries.

Are people being shot or tortured in the UK for being atheist as opposed to not following one particular faith?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Not yet.

but that doesn't cancel out the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.

just because there's no shootings or tortures in the UK.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

:ninja::clap::clap::clap:

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Well...yes it does. It's not 'global'. In some countries people are being tortured or killed for not following a certain belief, that much is true and certainly disturbing. However it's a big leap from saying the right to deny a deity is "under threat" globally. I don't follow the same beliefs as the people carrying out the attacks so I'd be just as at risk as you.

Those are just emotive words used to create a world-wide "anti-atheist" attitude that just doesn't exist.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

You're using death and torture as a basis for your argument.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

don't forget rape we've had a bout of that thrown in as-well

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Thanks, I wasn't sure about that for a while :erm:

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Roll on Xmas.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

The only problem i have with all religions are NONE of them can prove its true, these books where written YEARS ago and nothing too prove there is god has happened since.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

now lets not start bashing religion this is about the right to deny the existence of god :)

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

The most sense you've made in this thread. It is not the usual "This is why I don't believe" stuff.

Oh wait hang on, am I threatening the right to deny God???? :shocked:

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

i'm starting to think my postings are threatening your right to post sarcastic drivel

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I agree. and I've always said I am willing to believe if there were proof in the form of God saying Hi, it's me.

he and Jesus. and all the other magical characters had no problem showing themselves long before intelligence came along.

same can be said about witches, giants, ghosts and fairies.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Semantics would say that the global right to state non-existence of God being under threat is true. It is not true to say that that threat is global.

----
People who don't believe God are not likely to accept any proof that He does exist, just as people who do believe will not accept proofs that He doesn't. As a Christian we believe that God did turn up, state He was God many times through history (culminating in Jesus really turning up) but people love their own way more so denied or ignored those times to preserve their own way.

Aristotle was aound centuries BEFORE Jesus. People accept him as intelligent. So Jesus was around after "intelligence" came along?!

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Proof is proof. you can't dismiss proof.

it's the one thing that's missing. the one thing that keeps it going.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

What proof have you that God doesn't exist?

My proofs are universal (creation, stars, "nature"), history (when nations obey God they succeed, when the don't they don't), personal (Jesus is real to me, lives in me, encounter) and believing the reports of others (miracles and so on). But you don't accept those proofs. C.S.Lewis in miracles stated that if you don't believe in miracles, even if you experience one you would still not believe.

You want to "limit" God by demanding how He would proove Himself. But I'd guess that even if God did act as you desired you would still explain it away. And then where does faith come in?

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

None.
yet.

I said I would accept the proof. there's no reason why I wouldn't or shouldn't.

It comes with Christianity. it's the belief of an existance.

Christianity isn't based on proof as such. it's based on faith and belief.
hence the term 'believers'

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

That's nonsense.

Most who don't believe it don't believe it because there's no reliable evidence. They made the rational decision, and whatever you may think it's a perfectly rational decision, that there is no evidence to point to there being a God.

Present them, like me, with something beyond the Bible and I will rethink. You are projecting your own thoughts on this matter, that there is nothing that would convince you to change your mind, onto them and indeed me.

Aristotle apparently also believed in dualism, which you would presumably disagree with. Many of his era believed in the pantheon of Greek gods. Presumably you would agree that despite their being intelligent they were probably mistaken. There are plenty of intelligent people who, generally due to upbringing, believe in religious events when they would not for a moment countenance such fantastic things with such a lack of proof otherwise.

What is, however, beyond dispute is that there is an inverse correlation between intelligence and religious beliefs, so unsure what your point is on that one beyond answering a weak point with an equally weak one.

That is an abysmal argument. It is impossible to prove a negative. You can't prove that I don't have the largest manhood in the world. Clearly there is no evidence for it and the balance of probabilities is vastly against it, so you have either go with that or disregard it.

I refer you to Bertrand Russell

That isn't a proof of anything. You see God's work in a star; I see a giant, ancient nuclear fusion reactor that is taking simple elements that have existed since almost the beginning of the universe and is converting them into the elements of life. I know that star was formed by gravitational forces pulling largely hydrogen together up until the point where the pressure in the centre of that giant ball was sufficient to raise the temperature of the hydrogen until it began to fuse. This merely is proof of nuclear fusion and gravity, not of God.

Nature is something we understand a ton about, hence why we refer to things as natural processes and forces of nature. The whole point of these is that God is not required. If we were to accept the apparently supernatural without skepticism we wouldn't progress.

Creation - we don't know, however this becomes the whole circular thing that in order to create something as complex as the universe a more complex creator was required. In that case who created the creator? If the creator were eternal why couldn't the universe be? A circular argument done to death however drawing on creation as proof for a God is a fallacy, and even more so when using it as proof of a specific God.

I'll ignore the 'history' comment as it's simply not factual, and the 'personal' proofs as it's not my place to judge those.

I'm just interested in why a God that felt the need to demand worship in the past is so desperate to hide themselves now and has for so long. Incidentally trying to explain things away isn't a bad thing, it's how we gain knowledge. If we simply accepted everything we don't understand without trying to understand it we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Where does faith come in indeed? For me as little as possible as it has in the past clouded my judgement. I stick with the balance of probabilities based on the evidence I have where possible. Your mileage may vary.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Wow! I wonder how all the people below bluffed their way through.....

Wiki

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I would, proper tangible evidence that stands scrutiny. I would accept it.

There is lots of evidence of UFOs, but none that stands up to scrutiny.

There is lots of evidence to support a theory of ancient aliens, but none that stands up to scrutiny.

Just thought I'd chip in on that point, the rest of the thread is nuts.

---------- Post added at 22:24 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

You've got to do better than that, and you know it.

Now I know the argument is what do you base your proof against, I.e. Why should I provide scientific evidence, when I don't believe science holds the answers and don't believe my faith should answer to science.

Well it doesn't have to be total science, just the balance of probabilities based on the accumulated knowledge of the society at the time. But as a world, I believe we accept "accepted science" so that is the base line

non of which stands up to scrutiny

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

I said back to the topic. Infractions are next.

Re: How the right to deny the existence of God is under threat globally.
 

Mmmhm. There are a ton of factors that skew that, not least of which is what the baseline is. If the population were 90% Christian and only 70% of Nobel Prize winners identified themselves as Christian that would be a reverse correlation. Now look at surveys of education versus 'religiousity', Hugh.

From your link.

There are a ton of social reasons why, even up until recently, atheists and agnostics especially in the US though to a lesser extent here also, may have identified themselves as Christian.

With that in mind I will absolutely stand by my remark - the more educated a population are the lower the percentage of those who are religious. This isn't besmirching those who are religious, it's merely suggesting that non-belief is a perfectly rational point of view and one that can only be based on two things - rationalism or ignorance and it's a reach to think that the better educated are more ignorant than those less educated.

---------- Post added at 22:57 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Sorry - was a rebuttal to an earlier post. Will stop on that line now.