Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

"Vodafone Group Plc (VOD) is exploring a combination with John Malone’s Liberty Global Plc (LBTYA) that would create Europe’s largest phone, Internet and TV company, worth more than $130 billion, people with knowledge of the matter said."
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...ty-global.html

A combination between LG and Vodafone has logic:
- Complementary cable presence in Germany
- Complementary fixed line positions in the rest of Europe
- Both use Tivo (Spain and UK)

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Someone posted a link earlier that VF may try to buy LG. Lots of rumours floating around recently.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Vodafone's definitely going to be left behind in the market if all the other rumoured acquisitions go ahead and they don't do anything...

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

There are competition issues in Germany, not really complimentary.
They'd need to sell things they just bought recently, according to press reports.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

That's my understanding too, would be a good move though, they could get even more investment for expansion.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

As said many time in multiple threads.

This has been kicked around by the speculators ever since Vodafone Offloaded their stake in Verizon.

If they had moved for Liberty then they could have bought the whole thing for cash.

But they didn't, they've given a load of cash back to shareholders, and committed funding to invest in their network, which is sorely needed.

That means any deal now would have with shares. Which may or may not be attractive to shareholders. Also as Liberty has grown it has accumulated a fair amount of debt, which again may put off shareholders.

Then there is potential competition issues in each country, they may have to sell of bits of Liberty that they've just bought.

I hope this deal doesn't go through as I don't think it would be good for anyone. There is a lot speculation though, especially over the last 24hrs. When you read in to the piece though the opening paragraph sort of lays it out.

The story seems to be based on the premise that Vodafone have had a meeting to discuss whether or not they should bid for Liberty. So still a long way off if at all.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Would Vodafone want/need to buy Virgin's network, when they already own C&W's (ex Bulldog/Pipex) LLU infrastructure?

They can surely reach far more customers over LLU than over Virgin's?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

The only reason to buy Liberty would be so they could offer quad play. But they already have plans to offer a TV package and fixed line broadband over ADSL. But that is in the UK only.

There is potential growth in quad play if you get the offering right. Only about 17% of Virgin customers take all 4 products.

At the moment Virgin are investing in the network, expanding it. I would expect that to stop if Vodafone took over.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

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They would be buying a customer base as well though and that would give them a head start rather than starting from scratch. They are struggling attracting new business in the UK and I think Virgin connected more new mobile customers than Voda in Q3

The challenge they have is that Liberty don't need to sell, however everything has a price.

Not sure why you would expect Network Expansion to stop if they took over, it's clear that to really take on the other big players, they need to be able to make their services available to more homes, whoevers name is over the door?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I think it would be BAU if Vodafone bought liberty global. Whatever virgin is doing it seems to be working so no need to change. Would be nice if virgin mobile dumped EE and went with a supplier who allowed 4g

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Malone seems convinced that as Liberty Global's and Vodafone's cable networks are in different German states, there would not be competition issues in this respect. So a bit like the coming together of Telewest and NTL in the UK. But obviously Vodafone has other businesses in German as well as its Kabel Deutschland business.

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I'm sure EE would "allow" Virgin to use 4G, the question is why Virgin don't currently offer it?

My money would be on cost, perhaps EE won't offer VM rates that they would be prepared to pay?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

No virtual operator on EE used 4g, tesco and gift gaff use 02

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Doesn't surprise me, EE's big selling point is their 4G. It certainly isn't their customer service, allowances or prices.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Indeed, EE has by far the best 4G coverage in the UK and can afford to charge a premium for it, given their considerable lead, VM simply didn't want to pay up.

Nothing about not 'allowing' 4G, Virgin Mobile Business has been giving customers 4G over EE's network for some time. It's simply a pricing issue, business services are more profitable, their consumer services are targeted at the low-end/economy market.

(P.S. EE's 4G allowances are in fact the largest by far of the major networks, and pricing is competitive in some aspects, considering £800 of usage in the US on O2 would be free on EE.)

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

At least we know why the Virgin Media name is absent from the EPG in the latest software change for TIVO....I can easily see VM becoming Vodafone Media, yes.

Vodafone and Liberty have been competing for cable assets, so it makes sense for the two to combine. Malone has been quoted as saying he wants to do one last big deal before retirement, so perhaps this is it.

I've always said on this forum and others, that we'll end up with 3, or perhaps 4 companies all offering tv, broadband, landline phone and mobile and other media too. Perhaps looking something like this:

BT, O2, ITV
Sky, Talktalk, EE
Vodafone, Virgin Media

In related news, Vodafone is looking to buy Tesco's video streaming service Blinkbox:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...V-service.html

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

How would a tie up of Sky , Talk Talk and EE work ? Wouldn't they be the largest ISP by some distance ?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Giff Gaff is just an O2 brand so not a virtual operator.
Virtual networks Asda Mobile, Life Mobile (part of Phones4U but just acquired by EE) and Virgin Mobile do not offer 4G.
But:
BT Mobile is on the EE network and offers 4G. At the moment, it is only available to businesses. We don't know if it will offer 4G to consumers, and I guess the launch of BT Mobile to retail customers may now never happen unless it rebrands an acquistion.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

There is only one network, BT's, which reaches every home in the UK. VM passes around 50% of UK homes. I think Sky/TalkTalk could make an argument that if they build a consumer fibre network of their own, this would put them in a weaker position financially and so need the scale of the merger to make it workable.

I note that on CityFibre's network in York, Sky and TalkTalk are working together with CityFibre and between the three of them are funding the fibre network out to residential consumers there. Perhaps this may be the start of wider cooperation between the companies.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Such a combination would need the approval of the Competition and Markets Authority. Broadband market share would be an issue - Sky has 20%, TalkTalk 15% and EE3%. This would give them a dominant position of 38%. With Vodafone's service not launched and VM only available in half the country, this would create a BT-Sky duopoly in half the country. (Remaining 2014 market shares are BT 31% and VM 20%, others 10%. Per Ofcom http://media.ofcom.org.uk/facts/)

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

If they were to build their own network and only offer their services on that network hence giving up the right to use BT's. Perhaps that would ease competition concerns as it could give another company the opportunity to pick up their FTTC/ASDL2 customers.

I think there needs to be a serious competitor to BT and the only real way that can happen is by using a totally separate network and infrastructure to BT's.

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Anyone know the breakdown of FTTC customers by ISP ?

Personally I'm not convinced competition in this side of the market is working.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I wish someone would buy virgin mobile, as there service / and staff are pure rubbish

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Well Arthur there is a choice out there if you are not happy.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Vodafone are slightly in bed with Sky at the moment with NowTV being offered on their mobiles. Is it a one night stand though?

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What a lovely person you are, would you like to be called pure rubbish?

Seeing as its now integrated into Virgin Media, someone would have to buy the whole thing

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

It would seem Arthur's love for the hard working person, is not for everyone.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Also interesting that it's all the staff rather than the ones he has been in contact with.

Strange that, I needed to speak to them on Friday night and they were great.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Absolutely no chance in hell of that happening.

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

No, beyond that BT have the overwhelming majority of them via the BT Infinity brand, with a large proportion of the remainder belonging to the BT owned Plusnet.

Competition isn't working there because the major competitors, Sky and TalkTalk, have all-copper LLU infrastructure they want to sweat for as long as possible so have been reluctant to get into FTTC while BT have pursued it aggressively.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Giving up the right to use BT's network does not give you carte blanche to over-ride the principles of the Competition & Markets Authority. Not that building another network from scratch would be viable or quick anyway.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I would put the combinations as:
1) BT, EE (Would broadband market share be an issue?)
2) Sky, O2 (Would Sky really want a mobile operator? Can it afford to now after its European expansion? Would Telefonica want a stake in Sky and how would Fox view this?)
3) Three, TalkTalk (Both value-for-money operators)
4) Vodafone, Virgin Media (Vodafone sees the European global cable synergies. Would there be some competition issues? UK mobile? German fixed lines?)

It is entirely possible that Vodafone and Sky won't make any big acquistions, in which case Three might make acquire EE or O2 as a defensive move against BT. Time will tell.

Sky is apparently hiring Lazard as advisers.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/47050522-7...#axzz3KjVspKIv Registration required.)

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I could quite easily see Vodafone buy Talk Talk and tie up a relationship deal with Sky.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I agree , every provider (VM being the exception) selling fixed line fibre BB is hampered by the fact their reliant on the Openreach network. This is an obstacle I'm sure at some stage one provider will look to team up and overcome.

Do they have the funds though ?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

TalkTalk's certainly a lot cheaper than Liberty Global to buy but the two customer bases are at different ends of the market. And Vodafone has a good existing relationship with Sky at the moment. But obviously Vodafone could save money by routing some of TalkTalk's business through its ex-C&W network if it bought the company.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Also, As I understand it - i may be wrong - Talk Talk TV is oneof the better TV products of it's type, and an instant customer base to start from. A tie up with Sky for content and it may stand a chance.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

It's got a YouView receiver and a reasonable range of channels. The issue is that its customers are primarily value-driven customers whilst Vodafone's are service driven. Increase the cost of TalkTalk to be able to offer Vodafone standards of service and you lose TalkTalk's customers. Reduce Vodafone's prices to match TalkTalk's and you have to reduce service standards and you lose Vodafone's customers. Keeping the brands separate is an option though, a bit like BT and PlusNet.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I see Sky has today sold its controlling stake in Sky Bet to allow them to focus on their pay TV operation.

Link

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Interesting. :) More importantly, it gives them £600m cash now, but this is obviously small compared to the value of EE and O2.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

ItI'm not convinced Sky will buy a mobile business however I can see a deal similar to the one VM have with EE that said stranger things have happened.

It'll be interesting to see if any of these moves impact the next EPL rights auction , will BT if it then owns either EE or O2 still have the funds to bid as aggressively ?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

The cash will probably go towards content rights, most likely football.

EE/O2 would be an acquisition through shares with perhaps some cash component but not a large one.

Those of you with premium TV or BT landlines, hope you enjoy paying your football tax :)

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Vodafone deny Liberty bid.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...ty-Global.html

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Good find, thanks for sharing.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Three?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

They have to say that, vodafone share price dropped

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Three doesn't really have a proper 4G network, given their coverage was too poor to even make it onto Ofcom's last analysis, hence why they give it away for free...

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Threes 3g can outperform 4g on other networks

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

It's true that Three's 4G coverage doesn't come close to EE's but at least from my anecdotal evidence, it's about on par with O2's as we were all comparing 4G signals last night. Nobody was on Vodafone so I have no idea where they stand.

Three's 4G annoyingly covers the entire area around my house and where I work. Around it. As in there's a near-perfect circle "gap" covering the two. Still, I can't usually complain about the 3G speeds I get and not having to worry about the data being used is amazing.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Three's 4G coverage is considerably poorer than O2 or Vodafone. This is according to Ofcom, and their own coverage maps.

O2 and Vodafone are practically identical, they share all their 4G masts. EE are nearing 80% population coverage, O2/VF are nearing 50%, even so they are better than EE across pretty much the whole of Scotland. Three are still hovering around 20-30%.

---------- Post added at 20:59 ---------- Previous post was at 20:58 ----------

O2's 3G can outperform Three's 4G too. I can also jump from a plane and survive without a parachute.

It just doesn't happen all that often. None of the above things do.

On average, Three's 3G is four times slower than 4G on other networks.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Bollocks to all of it, I took a 6hr train ride the other day up the east coast of England and Scotland and had 3G for a about a cumulative total of 20 mins.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

With which provider?

I suppose it comes down to what that coverage report is actually measuring - KM covered or population or what? Either way, I'm not disagreeing, the problem with all of the providers is not a single one of them has universal coverage so there will always be someone who's unhappy with any of the providers.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Everyone measures (or publicies) coverage by population. Because by KM covered even the 99% coverage of 2G is is something pathetic like 40% of area. Regardless, O2 has a legal obligation to provide the most coverage, the other networks except 3 all want to voluntarily match it. Yes, there will always be somebody unhappy with something but statistically more people are unhappy with some networks than others.

At the end of the day, three networks (everyone except 3) will have a nationwide 4G network exceeding the coverage of any current 3G network within the next two years. 3 are the only network without a serious 4G rollout strategy (not to mention, two thirds of the places they said they planned to have 4G coverage within 2014 still don't have it, and it's the second week of December...). 3 are planning to spend less than 1/3rd the money on 4G as the other networks - around 0.5 billion - whereas everyone else is spending £1.2-1.8 billion each. A wise decision to not waste money on building a network if you're planning on buying someone else's bigger, better network anyway.

---------- Post added at 03:39 ---------- Previous post was at 03:37 ----------

Seeing as you can go up the entire east coast main line of Scotland in about 3-4 hours and maintain 3G coverage all the way, I suggest your phone is bollocks.

Plus anyone who compares 4G rollout based on 3G has no clue what they're on about.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

In an amusing twist to this story: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...8-percent.html

That would put it in line with the other providers.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Vodafone

---------- Post added at 11:47 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

Well not with Vodafone you can't.

I wasn't comparing, just making a statement.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

It might put it in line with VF/O2 but surely not in line with EE with 80% coverage?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

48% according to their own, skewed figures perhaps, the same figures Ofcom refused to include in the latest national study because they were so inaccurate (i.e. unrealistic). 3 have just been on a giant misleading PR rampage all year wrt. 4G. "No extra cost for 4G" - then increase everyone's bills and increase new customer prices by up to 60%. "4G launching December 2013" - but not actually available to customers until the end of February 2014. "Only network to offer unlimited data on 4G" - and then apply new data limits to everyone, including 3G customers...

Compare their 48% coverage with two 4G transmitters in Aberdeen vs. O2/VF's 48% coverage with 20 4G transmitters in Aberdeen... (Correction: O2/VF are probably closer to 60% now)

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/12/10.png

Their strategy isn't much different across the whole UK - stick one or two transmitters up in a big city where there's lots of people and call it "covered"... Things don't get much better in central Scotland; O2 have more 4G transmitters in Edinburgh alone than 3 have in the entirety of Scotland combined.:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/12/11.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/12/12.png

And it's pretty much the same even at the opposite end of the UK. I'm willing to bet O2 have more 4G transmitters in Scotland (pop: 5 million) than 3 have in the whole of England, Wales, and Northern Ireland (pop: 50 million):
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/12/13.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/12/14.png

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

That's true, Vodafone do have the worst 3G coverage in the UK. But regardless, they are expanding fast, and 4G will result in much improved 3G coverage even on VF.

My apologies. Still, it's a bit counterproductive as there are already so many people mislead into thinking along the lines "why don't they fix 3G first"/"I can't get 3G, 4G is totally irrelevant"/"I can't get 3G so I'll never get 4G" etc.

Most people don't realise that 4G not only covers more area than 3G and is easier/faster to roll out, the combined multi-mode 2G+3G+4G equipment mans all masts are being upgraded to support both 3G and 4G at the same time, even when they have previously been 2G only.

---------- Post added at 14:57 ---------- Previous post was at 14:55 ----------

Not even then - my figures for VF/O2 were a bit outdated, they had already reached 51% in October and are closer to 60% now, a good dozen or so new cities went live in early November.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Virgin mobile will be providing 4G. They currently in a project to move to a "thick MVNO" model, where they'll have more control over the services they can provide, and will effectively only be using EE's RAN, and nothing else.

Won't be for another year though as I understand it, but they working to reduce that.

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No doubt this is marketing PR fluff with massaged figures.

Three aren't the only ones guilty of this, I think they've all raised prices?

This one I know isn't true, as I happened to be in Liverpool quite a lot in December last year (I did used to live there) and got 4G coverage quite a bit. I think there was only 2 or 3 cities that got it though.

I'm on unlimited data? What limits have they imposed, aside from Tethering (which on my contract wasn't allowed anyway).

I can't really comment on this as I don't know enough about it. I'll say that Three's coverage map is bang on, at least in my area.

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Gee, another year? I recall you telling me this was in the works over a year ago.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?ll
 

well when i first told you about the Thick MVNO project it hadn't started yet.

It's now well underway.

I'm not close to the project so don't have any specific details, only what I hear in passing.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

What's so hard about flicking the 4g switch on while the other work is carried out?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Probably money as always and not wanting to pay EE for more capacity than they need to

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Cost. Like I previously said VM already do 4G for their business customers.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

You called that one right! Personally, I thought BT would take O2 back under its wings.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Thanks. 50% chance. :) I thought O2 was more youth-oriented than EE so EE was a better fit. Will be interesting to see how the other players react. Maybe Liberty Global could sell Vodafone its European interests, keep its Latin American interests and the tax losses inherited from VM?

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I think the tax thing is key here actually, and that is what will be attractive to any buyer of Liberty/VM. But I'd imagine the offsetting of the tax losses would stay with VM though. I don't see how Liberty could keep them if VM were sold to someone else.

But as we're playing fantasy who will merge with whom next, I've not seen anyone suggest a Vodafone/Sky combination. So there, I just have, just for fun! But yeah, it is interesting to see what happens next. I've not seen any speculation about Talktalk. I am sure they would not want to miss out on the mobile musical chairs party.

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LibertyGlobal can keep the company and just sell the assets of VM. But there are lots of companies within the VM group so in reality I assume it could sell the operating companies and keep the holding companies which ahve the tax losses in them.
Vodafone/Sky combination is an issue in Germany and ultimately Fox will surely buy Sky so unlikely.
But similar customer profile. Unlike Vodafone/TalkTalk.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Just FYI this has suddenly become somewhat more 'urgent' with the news about BT and EE.

Money seems to be on BT-EE, VM-Vodafone, Sky-Three, TalkTalk-O2.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

You mean LG-Vodafone? or do you think LG will spin off VM?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Indeed, but after this wave after consolidation, then the real mega mergers start, me thinks.

There are the incumbent European telcos for a start, and its interesting that Deutsche Telekom and France Telecom will own a part of BT if the BT buyout of EE goes ahead. Could this be a future signal to a three way tie up between the 3 biggest European telecos as a defensive measure against Murdoch and others?? And there are all the other European telcos too like Telefonica, KPN etc.

Then there are the US majors who can't grow any more in their home markets as they're already as big as they can go, so perhaps they'll be looking for overseas investments. So perhaps we'll see AT&T, Disney, Comcast et all getting involved in the European telco/ISP/mobile/tv markets.

I think in the end brand will be key. Today we see BT as a British telephone company and Sky as a satellite tv company. I think that will all change - it is already and you'll get your favourite brand but whatever methods are available and the lines between ISP, teleco, cable tv, mobile, satellite will just disappear.

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If LG keep the tax losses for themselves, then I'd assume they'd have to keep the debt too, so I think Malone would either sell the whole lot or not.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Vodafone buy LG and sell the bits that don't benefit them going forward. Was just using VM-Vodafone as shorthand.

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Yeah, the German regulators are making a lot of noise about various things. But we are all in the EU, for now, so EU law would override their issues. You can't have a free market, then complain when the free market does what it wants, within reason of course.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Not quite that simple though is it. Vodafone are still saddled with all bits of C&W they didn't want several years after buying them.

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It's a signal that BT don't have £12.5 billion in cash handy and have to finance part of the acquisition in shares.

Telefonica want out of the UK market, that's why they want shot of O2's mobile business having gotten rid of the ISP/landline business. KPN seem to be focusing on retail more and network operations less. Given KPN was recently protected from a hostile takeover by the Dutch government the odds of them giving up the company, it's worth less than £10 billion, as a minority partner in a merger with a larger UK business seem slim.

---------- Post added at 15:40 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

Another option is to spin them off into separate businesses. Not really an option with sections of C&W while cable companies are somewhat more self-contained.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Again I'll caveat this, anything can happen.

But if you look at it sensibly, all this proposed consolidation is mainly UK centric.

Would Vodafone really want to pay £80Billion for Liberty, when all they would reallly be interested in is VM? If they sold off the other parts of of Liberty they didn't want would they find a buyer that returned what they paid for them.

Why risk that kind of money when it's not even been proven that the consumer wants quad play?

Vodafone will be able to compete with BT in regards to quad play with their own mobile network v EE, and fixed line broadband and TV on the same platform as BT (perhaps securing content deals with Sky) without blowing £80b on Liberty.

Likewise,
Liberty can continue across Europe with their cable infrastructure and MVNO model.

I don't see the tie up as being as attractive or inevitable as the city vultures make out.

Buy hey, what do I know?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

...that's what forums are for guessing about things like this on cold winter days!

Personally, I don't think Liberty would want to hive things off. They've stated their policy is to consolidate the European cable industry and then sell it off to a suitable buyer when they think the time is right. It would seem odd that they have gone to the effort of buying separate cable cos and trying to integrate some things together, only to split it all up again.

If Vodafone see continuing growth in what they already do, they won't make a move. But if they believe that "content" aka programming is key, then they will have to morph into a different company than what they are now. Whether that involves Liberty, who knows.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I'd be shocked if Three and Sky end up merging, that doesn't make a huge amount of sense to me but what do I know.

With the EU regulations coming in regarding roaming within the EU, it does make sense for the various telcos to start merging operations into Europe-Wide ones. I'm not really sure how that fits in with the broadband and media sides of things but I suppose having an EU-wide quad-play company could have its uses.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I'm not sold on quad-play either, but then you and I are perhaps not the 'average' punter.

Vodafone wanting to pay out £37 billion and take on £39 billion in return for various cable companies where they have synergy is a tricky one for them to sell to their shareholders, however rumours carry on. Whether anyone will push the button or not is different of course.

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I don't think quad-play bundles have really taken off yet as they've never really been sold correctly until recently. VM have always focussed on offering triple-play with a back seat given to a separate slightly cheaper mobile deal if you are a customer. Only recently have they started doing true quad-play by bundling a SIM in with the Big Bundles.

If VM (or other providers) sold a bundle of TV, BB, landline and mobile all in one then you may get much more interest, especially if you could then add additional discounted mobiles in for family members. Obviously the pricing would have to be right but I and probably many others would consider it if it made economic sense.

Obviously if VM were to be acquired by Vodafone, I would expect mobile to become as much of a selling point as the core triple-play and we may then see some true quad-play offers.

Interesting times ahead!

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I think what would sell quad-play for me would be if there was more of a focus on my household rather than myself as a customer. What I mean is, the broadband and TV is for the house - I may pay for it, but everyone in the house uses it. I'd love for them to have SIM packages that can give everyone in the house a bundle of minutes, texts and data to share. Plus some additional SIM's for our tablets and whatnot.

That would be pretty killer for me, as it would turn 3 or 4 separate contracts into one.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Why would Vodafone want/need to buy Liberty/Virgin Media, when they already own (as part of the C&W acquisition) the ex Bulldog LLU infrastructure?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

That is exactly what I was getting at above Kush and I think if they used that sort of model then quad-play would take off. I, like yourself, would much rather have everything in one contract providing the costs were right.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

And there lies the rub. Even with the discount for existing customers, I don't find Virgin's deals to be particularly competitive. Then again, I really don't care about mins and texts, all I want is data and I find most of the mobile operators are pretty crappy in that regard. That's the only reason I stick with Three - unlimited data.

Now if Virgin was happy to give me 3 or 4 SIMs with a nice big bundle of data (say 8GB) between them, I'd be very interested. Especially if they throw on more data depending on what broadband package I've got.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

The American mobile firms have been doing this kind of thing for years , choose a family plan , then the number of handsets needed and your allowance is shared across all handsets only problem is they don't get the hardware as heavily discounted as traditional contracts here.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

This is true, though I'd hardly call the hardware "discounted" here - often you just about break even at best on the RRP of the hardware (or at least it seems it these days). It's usually cheaper to take out a loan and buy the handset outright, then get a cheapo sim-only deal.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Very true , fair point. Slightly off topic but does anyone think VM will ever allow wholesale access to its BB network ? Openreach seem to take an age with improvements , vectoring being a perfect example.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I'd agree Kush, their mobile contracts on the high end handsets aren't particularly competitive even if you're a VM customer. Their SIM only deals aren't too bad but the downside is there is currently no 4G.

You're right with Three though, they do some really generous data allowances. They've got a really good network too (where I live anyway!) as I used them for a while before I (regrettably) got a contract with O2. I did get a great deal with O2 but for me (and a number of friends/colleagues), the O2 network is shocking. I've never had so many failed calls and data drop outs and will be scurrying back to either Three or EE as soon as my contract is up.

Also, back on topic, the network quality would also be an issue if Vodafone were to buy VM as Vodafone have a notoriously poor network too so I guess even if they did do decent quad-play, would you want it on their network? Guess it would depend where you live as I know the experience of all the networks varies across the country for users.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

I believe that's happened in the past but I'm not sure really what VM has to gain from it. I believe that it has been mused that OFCOM might even force them to do this, but as it is a privately built network I'm not sure how realistic that is.

Every time the debate about which network is best comes up, there's always people that swear one network is tip top and another is dire. Like yourself, I generally get a great signal on three and have had issues with Orange/T-Mobile in the past (have a guess when I switched networks) but I've seen loads of people complain about Three as well. It really does seem to be a postcode lottery.

I'm hoping that 4G will resolve most of that, as each provider got a nice chunk of 800Mhz spectrum which should hopefully mean much better coverage.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

ntl sold wholesale to AOL for a while. AOL were paying absolutely silly money for it, mind :)

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Funny you should say that as ironically the O2 service getting worse in my area coincided with their 4G launch but obviously on the numerous times I've complained about poor service, there is no connection between the two! Hmm! :D

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Funny the number of people who do not understand how things work and jump immediately to this false and illogical conclusion that is completely unsupported by facts.

Hundreds of thousands of tests by multiple independent investigators have found data speeds to have increased by 2x-3x on average across all users, including all existing 3G customers.

---------- Post added at 11:22 ---------- Previous post was at 11:19 ----------

4G will provide much better coverage - yes. However, not all providers got a "nice chunk" of 800Mhz. Only two providers did - and those two providers already hold all the 900Mhz as well, giving them a massive advantage they've so far made little of.

The other two operators (3 and EE) actually have too little 800Mhz to run an effective network on, hence why neither of them have actually used their 800 yet. It will mostly be restricted to VoLTE purposes as it lacks the bandwidth for anything else, at least until the 700Mhz auction ends. The average speeds on 800Mhz alone will be lower than 3G for both those networks, but will carry a big range advantage over 2100Mhz 3G.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Thanks for that qas, your right, I don't know the technicalities of how the mobile signals work. If the 4G has nothing to do with it then O2 must just be crap in my area. As mentioned above had no issues with EE or Three but since joining O2 I've lost count of the number of dropped calls and instances of the data signal dropping down to Edge or GPRS.

I chalk it up to experience and will now always test a PAYG sim if considering changing network and getting new contracts.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

That's the thing, often these days I usually get some signal and decent speed or absolutely nothing. If it's a choice between getting zero signal and getting a partial but very slow signal, I'll take what I can get.

My experiences are worst on trains, whereby I'll usually have a signal then pass through a not-spot. It's only for a few seconds, maybe a couple of minutes but everything just stops dead and all signal is lost - it's quite frustrating.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

In fairness, he is posting from his own experience. It may well be true that his connection got worse at the time O2 launched 4G.

It's also worth pointing out that at least one investigation (conducted on behalf of the BBC's Watchdog programme) concluded that several mobile networks had re-allocated a lot of their 3G bandwidth to the 4G network, so 3G users were noticing slower speeds. This seems logical. The backend network linking the sites has a limited bandwidth. Previously, the 3G users on that site would have had nearly 100% of the bandwidth available to them, as GPRS and voice signals use almost no bandwidth. Now, 4G has come along and can use many times more bandwidth than 3G. Even if the providers aren't specifically reserving bandwidth for 4G (which they may be), 3G phones in busier cells are going to be competing with 4G phones for the limited bandwidth on the cell's data link.

I've personally noticed my own connection (via EE) getting slower since they rolled out 4G, and that is one possible cause. The other is that when I joined T Mobile, it was just before they merged with Orange. When they merged, I had access to T Mobile and Orange cell sites in every cell. So, in most areas, my phone could connect to several cells. EE have spent years closing sites to consolidate the networks. Put simply, they cut the number of sites, but increased the number of customers. So, less bandwidth on each site to each customer.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

And you'll hear just as many people saying the exact same thing about EE.

---------- Post added at 13:28 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

It's possible, though most unlikely. When O2 launches 4G they also massively upgrade the 3G on the same mast. The same applies to Vodafone, but not EE or 3.

That is untrue. Absolutely zero networks reallocated 3G bandwidth to the 4G network. 3G and 4G operate on separate bands that do not overlap and cannot be shared or reallocated.

That's kinda clutching at straws. If there's too many people on a mast then your performance will be slow nomatter what technology they are using. "Signal" uses no bandwidth, traffic does. The only thing 4G does to the backend network is improve it.

4G does not use more backend bandwidth than 3G, actually it uses less. You are dividing the same amount of bandwidth between the same number of people. If those people weren't on 4G, they'd be on 3G and your 3G connection would be even slower.

4G is never introduced to a cell without the cell's data link being improved first. Even if it was, it would not make the difference you're suggesting.

Think about it a bit more, perhaps in "consumer" terms that might be more familiar to you:

You have ten users sharing the Wifi on your broadband connection. When ten users are downloading at the same time via 2.4Ghz, your connection is slow. When ten users are shared across 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz, how is it going to be any slower?

Adding 4G is usually combined with the masts' backhaul being improved by far more than 4G can take on it's own, more than doubling the capacity available to 3G even after 4G is all used up.

This is exactly the sort of misguided thinking I'm talking about. You'd rather jump to blaming 4G, than consider the far more likely fact that 3G users simply use more data (and there are more of them). 3G data usage roughly doubles every year or so, and that has nothing to do with 4G. Smartphone usage has gone up, smartphone ownership has gone up. Less than 15% of people are on 4G. 85% of the usage increase is on 3G.

They cut the number of sites, but massively improved the sites that remain. Thousands of the sites that were removed had 2Mbps or less. The remaining sites were upgraded to 100Mbps or 1000Mbps. In short, they may have removed 33% of sites, but the other 66% were given 5000% more capacity than they removed. So more backend bandwidth on each site to each customer. Backend capacity is largely irrelevant these days, being far more than required. The real problem is spectrum.

But that's just EE. None of the other networks have been removing masts at the same scale, so even if true, the same reasoning does not hold for 75% of networks.

This brings me back to a comment EE's CEO made quite early on - which is completely true, yet the vast majority of people misinterpreted: 4G does not use more data than 3G.

More people with more smartphones doing more things use more data. If it weren't for 4G, those same people would be on 3G and 3G would be even slower. 4G speeds have in fact almost halved over the past year. I suppose you don't have the convenience of 5G to blame for that huh?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

A Vodafone purchase of Sky Plc ?

Story

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

That would be interesting but can't see any other reports on this other than in the Express.

Not sure Sky gives them what they need, all the convergence seems to be with Mobile Operators and companies that have a network infrastructure or vice versa

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

Very interesting....

I don't see why Murdoch would want to sell Sky when he spent years building it up towards his dream was of a global satellite empire. But of course that's before the internet came along and a fast broadband line is far more valuable today than a dish.

If we're going into a "who's going to buy who" talk again, if Murdoch does offload Sky (I still cannot believe it will happen) but if it does, could Murdoch turn his attention to VM and do a deal with arch rival Malone?

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

It's not up to him though. Fox only owns 39% of Sky.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

....but its the largest stake which gives him de facto control. So, yes, it is up to him.

Re: Will VM be short for Vodafone Media?
 

No, it isn't. I may be wrong but based on a vote per share his stake isn't a controlling one. That would require 50% of the voting stock outstanding + 1 share.