Amount stated in contract
 

Hi - I'm after a bit of advice if anyone has been in similar situation please.

I took a loyalty discount to sign up for another contract (Ive been with VM for 8 years) but the amount on the contract (emailed and sent through the post) is ten pounds less than what they are actually taking on DD from my account. They are saying their systems say the higher amount but surely If I have a written contract stating a lower amount, they have to honour that??

I would be grateful for any advice please!

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

I signed up for the big Kahuna a few months ago as it was £4 per month cheaper than my current payment. It took me two calls to 150 to sort it out so I was paying the correct amount. My problem was that I had a V+ box which was free as the when I got a Tivo it didn't do everything and I had a perpetually free Talk 08 bundle. The people I talked to agreed that was correct, it just took a while (2 month) before the billing was straitened out. In my case though the printed contract was wrong but higher than what I should have been paying.

But it wasn't a loyalty discount. However they should have a copy of the contract they sent to you. I would advise phoning again and be sure to talk nicely with them.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

I'm mid signing up for a swap to VM, install is arranged.

The contract states about £8 more than agreed & for a longer period.

I had to ring & check that it's on the system how much I will pay& the period, I was advised that I can just write on the contract the correct terms - I have done this.

Lets see what happens when I return it.
NO way am I going to be beholden to a contract that has a higher fee & period than I agreed to.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

LOL, let's see how that stands-up in court!

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

OH My lord.

I think I know why, this Feb the services go up in price, but however if you got a contract previous to the changes and then they have to honour that for 18 months.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Any price can be subject to change even if it's under a minimum term.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Those changes may however render the minimum term null and void.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Oh them companies who look for anyway to find a loophole to kill a contract in their favour.

If the cases were ever taking to court, which they wouldn't anyway, the court would find in favour of the customer since they didn't break the contract.

Why do companies think they can do that... it is a bit bad they get let off to do so.

For me the old saying is true, a contract is a contract is a contract, if both parties agreed upon a price for services over certain time frame then... legally they should not be allowed to change that until the contract is over.

Wonder how they would feel if we phoned them up and asked them for a fee for changing the contract, cause they do it all the time for people leaving their services even if the services they provide was extremely bad. It is like they are hypocrites

/end rant lol

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

I absolutely agree with you but you need to read the Virgin Media contract.

It categorically states that they can increase the charges during the contract period and, in return, the customer has the right to cancel the contract with no penalty.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

I did think of mentioning it - but considering it's in the T&Cs, it comes up every time the cable prices change, and it's on the price change communications themselves I assumed it was common knowledge by now!

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

While true, it somewhat makes a VM contract not worth the paper is it written on, frankly.

A contract should be honoured by both sides. We have to stick to our side of the deal but VM can basically tear it up whenever they like. The mobile operators got in bother for this before, and thus now have to stick to RPI to calculate any prices increases yet VM and Sky seem to have got away with being able to stick it to their customers whenever they like, even with a signed contract.

Saying "We have the right to screw you" in your T&C agreement doesn't make it any better when you guys do, repeatedly.

Edit: I thought you only had 30 days to disagree with a price change otherwise the contract still stood? If upon a price rise it was torn up there and then I would have much less of a complaint.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

I don't think that's what happened really. OFCOM changed the guidance to say that if you get a price rise on a mobile contract on which you weren't already aware you got the same exit without penalty as fixed services.

Because for Pay Monthly with an included phone it potentially means trying to recover mobile equipment that's worth up to £600 or more then most providers have opted to advise that your contract included a guaranteed price change around the same amount as RPI as part of the contract you sign, rather than a potential price change and a no-penalty exit.
That's correct - there is window to which you can object otherwise you legally accepted the notified changes.

I believe this is standard contract law rather than being specific to Virgin Media.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Yes but then so is the bit about how you can get out of the contract without penalty if prices rise too much.

The window is a fairly widespread facet where in general if you don't object to something within ~30 days you are assumed to have accepted it. The same goes to items you buy, receive, trade, etc.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

It's also why O2 now split the bills so the phone is a fixed cost, and does not get affected by price rises, and the "Airtime" contract is subject to RPI. In real terms during the course of the contract the price of the contract is the same, which I can accept.

Again, it's not "around" RPI, it is RPI as stated in the contracts of O2 and likely all mobile operators now.

Anyway, call me old fashioned but I just feel like when it comes to fixed contracts, that it isn't good enough to give the 30 day window, even if that's all that is legally required. If I broke contract I would be liable to pay the remaining contract, no matter when I did it, and I have no right to do anything about it, yet VM reserves the right to re-write their end of the deal and 30 days later, bang, I'm locked down again.

Legal it may be, shady as hell it is too.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

It's not why O2 did that to be honest.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

What, you expect a weak little consumer and giant corporation with expensive lawyers to be on the same legal footing? Pfft.

Contracts are almost always biased one way or another. The reality in the business world is the bigger you are the more s*** you can get away with. In some industries it's pretty much the norm for bigger companies to routinely breach contracts and screw over small suppliers on a daily basis. Because they can.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

But is it legal?

I could put anything in a TOS etc and do it, doesn't mean it is legal though.

And that is the thing, is their ability to change prices on the fly even mid contract actually legal for them to do so? Probably not which is why they give you the option to leave without paying a fee when they do.

---------- Post added at 09:23 ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 ----------

I didn't even know this, not like its plastered everywhere for people to know.

VM being sneaky again?

Don't remember that being said on any letter or email about price changes that you have 30 days while in a contract to not agree but carry on with the contract.

Hmmm. Need to dig out the letter and check.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

These were the two parts in the letter:

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

"• If you are on a promotional offer we will honour it. Some of your increase may therefore happen at the end of your promotional offer. Visit virginmedia.com/better to find out more."

I was told the opposite by VM CS, that my increase of near £6 a month would apply on top of my 12 month promotional offer when I signed up to VM last May. I rang up specifically to ask about this and was one of my reasons to complain.

I'm now seriously confused.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Depends on the offer what happens.

For instance:

If you're on a half price offer, that continues but it'll be half of the new price, not the old one
If you're on a fixed price offer e.g. £5 for six months, than that won't change until the end of the six months.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Ah, I was told something different.

I was told my offer of 12 months half price would stand, but the extra £5.xx would apply on top of that, and would not be half of the new price like above.

I even said on the phone if the situation you described above applied I would be fine but was told the half price offer was an absolute monetary value and wouldn't increase along with any price rises.

As I wont get another bill for a few weeks I can't say for sure what's going to happen but some clarification on how these rises actually affect those on introductory offers and promotions would be very welcome.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Ben was talking about the 30 days to disagree with the price increase but to carry on with the current price of the contract that is still running.

Not the how to leave without paying a fee.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

That doesn't exist, and that wasn't what I was talking about.

Your legal options during the 30 days are to cancel without penalty or not. That's it.

Virgin Media may offer you a new price to stay but that's their own choice not a legal right. And if you do accept a new price, it's a new contract which may then shorten your exit options (new contracts are subject to 14 days right to cancel which would supersede any remaining part of the 30 days)

Section J3 of the terms and conditions, which is the same section which gives you your cancellation rights:

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Everything is legal unless there's actually a specific law against it.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Well there is, is there not, to stop companies from making TOS that is very one sided and in favour to them only.

Or perhaps it is most them don't actually hold up in court if that is the course of action someone takes.

I can't remember exactly, but in Scotland there is a Unfair Contract Terms Act that stops this kind of thing.

---------- Post added at 19:50 ---------- Previous post was at 19:49 ----------

Oh was just going on what was said to you and what you replied earlier in this thread.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

No.

Unfair contract terms legislation does not stop this kind of thing because it is not unfair. Unfair contract terms legislation is actually what led to the creation of these terms in the first place.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Just checked up more on it, there has been court cases where contracts were unfairly heavy for the business and not for the customer, so wasn't balanced.

And the customer has won most of the cases.

But that's in Scotland, not sure about the rest of the UK though.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Different contracts are different. Go figure.

Allowing a customer to leave without penalty is not 'unfairly heavy for the business'.

The Consumer Contracts Regulations (and its predecessors) are UK-wide implementation of EU directives, they are not specific to Scotland.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

But it can be seen as unfair if they can change prices you originally agreed upon for a set time frame.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Not by the courts it can't.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Show me that is not the case in courts. Surely if you have said that you must have proof of this?

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

I think the proof is the other way around i.e. you'd have to win a case that proves a contract is unfair.

So I assume you have a court case that proves that?

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:34 ----------

Remember that OFCOM didn't stop price changes completely - just said those that weren't already known about that didn't then allow a no-penalty exit shouldn't continue.

So the principle of a no-exit penalty if there is a price change that wasn't defined at the start of the contract is fair in OFCOMs view.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

It's in a PDF from the very peeps themselves - http://lawcommission.justice.gov.uk/...cts_issues.pdf

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

It is indeed:

The main reference to an unfair price term is:

That doesn't apply to cable as you can cancel for a price change, and doesn't apply to mobile because you are aware of the guaranteed change when you take out the contract.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Many = All ;)

But also I believe there was more to that than that quote you used.

Section 8 has a lot of contract changes listed. Especially examples.

I have no qualms about people not paying a fee if prices change, but there is instances with court proceedings that have gone against a company that have done this mid contract in favour of the customer.

But I think the main thing that annoys most people is VM's control of the contract, if you get sub par service and choose to leave you have to pay a fee, which is wrong, since Sales of Goods Act also covers services provided by a business.. and the contract even though worded in a way to protect VM, cannot over power law, and thusly a sub par service for a long time would annul the contract... but yet VM try to get fees for it.

But anything else that would require them to foot a cost, technically I am legally entitled to say to VM if you change the contract I can charge you a £25 fee for doing so, to set up my new direct debit etc... but yet they would rather you just kill the contract and dump services than go through that, which makes them a hypocrite of sorts.

So yeah... the contract is unfair imho and in favour mostly to the provider being VM.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Pity you ruin your argument with the above statement. It doesn't cost you anything to change a direct debit , the whole point being that the company has control of the direct debit so you don't have to do anything unless they do something wrong.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

And I bet you none of them involved contracts at all relevant to the discussion in this thread, i.e. contracts that already allowed customers to cancel without charge or penalty.

You mean the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982

I agree with arcimedes here, this is total rubbish and in fact makes you a hypocrite.

Regulations forbid companies from charging penalty fees that are disproportionate to the actual time, effort, and costs involved in actioning something. Since changing a direct debit amount takes zero time, and requires absolutely no effort at all on your part, you would be entitled to charge absolutely £0. Any attempt to charge more than £0 for you doing absolutely nothing whatsoever would be deemed an unfair, likely a penalty clause and legally unenforceable.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Was being sarcastic at their charges for what they do to cancel your account which cost nothing either :) Just a few clicks :P

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:11 ----------

Not many are in examples, it is the basis which is relevant.

Nope Sale of Goods Act (may have added that extra s in before) also deals with goods and services to the consumer and how it is provided and what you receive in promised quality.

Supply of Goods and Services Act is the act of transferring the goods in reasonable care and condition.


Like I said in the last post, it was sarcasm to show what VM does to cancel your account is worth nothing also. So you can do what they do in Rome and charge them for nothing.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

If you close your account outside of a minimum term, or during the exit period allowed for a price change, Virgin Media do not charge for closing the account.

Within a minium term, Early Disconnection Fees are not charged to cover the cost of the work required to close the account.

Re: Amount stated in contract
 

Indeed, yet their competitors (BT) do.