EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29751124

Outstanding timing from the EU, it's almost as if they want UKIP to do well.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

They must really hate Cameron.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

Because the re-assessment goes all the way back to 1995, Greece is also in line for a surcharge, while Germany is to get a rebate.

Truly ... You Couldn't Make It Up.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

Right, there are 2 possibilities on how this has happened:

1: This is based on a known formula that each country including the UK agreed to. Like a hedge on currencies etc, each country agreed that if their economy falters, they could pay less to the EU, if they do better, they pay more. If this is the case and is a result of a policy that wasn't publicised but UK govt knew about, then tough. If the opposite happened and we got to pay less because our economy was tanking, Cameron would be laughing.

2: If the EU just decided to change the rules without consulting each national govt first, then er...yeah. Considering our Dutch friends are near recession and asked to fork out another £500 too, which is more per capita than we are being asked to pony up I think they will be annoyed too.

From the article: "EU officials say it is a technical not a political decision, and it has been worked out under rules agreed by all member states"

That wording is tricky. It doesn't say that the process was agreed by all member states, just that the framework to do so was agreed. Surely Cameron & co should've been told this was going on. If they were, then they had the chance to veto it, if they didn't, then the extra payment should be refused.

This looks to be akin to your energy company telling you that your meter has been buggered for 20 years and now want the difference back. Technically correct by not exactly morally correct. I think the formula should be used going forward but the payments made historically should be final.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

Farage will be raising a glass to Brussels tonight.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

The French basket case economy (That followed the Labour party spend, spend, spend plan) also gets €1bn of our money :mad:

Truely a gift to UKIP in the forthcoming by-election.

John Redwood said on R4 Today programme this morning that we should simply refuse to pay. Somehow I don't see that level of testicular fortitude from Dave. :(

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

Cameron knew this was coming, they've known for a week at least and probably before that.

I would find it absurd that the EU would put down a 1.7Billion invoice with a 90 days to pay sticker on it. (but you never know)

He's had a while to come up with a response, I'll be very interested to hear what he says.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

Maybe he will say Wonga for the loan!!!:D

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

Maybe this is all a cunning plan to make Cameron look strong ahead of the by-election...

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

I suppose the UK could agree to pay it just as soon as the EU gets its accounts signed off by the auditors.

That should put the matter to bed for the next 25 years or so.

Re: EU demand extra 1.7bn from UK
 

So we get screwed twice.

Not surprised the Germans get a rebate when you see the women.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Cameron's now saying he won't be paying on 1 December as demanded. Here's hoping he doesn't roll over and pay it on 2 December instead. :erm:

If we have to pay this, we should pay it off over 20 years, in recognition that it's a correction to the last 20 years' worth of assessments.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Farage must be delighted. Every time the Europe thing goes a bit quiet some Eurocrat or other pops out of the woodwork to make them look even more out of touch and intransigent.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I think it's great.

it makes politics interesting.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Well Dave and George are always spouting on that our economy is booming so here is their chance to prove it.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

we all know daves going to pay up he just needs to kick up a fuss to look good first

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

He'll put on his fat cross face and say something about he's told them that in no uncertain terms. and the reporter will say did you pay them?

and he'll say yes, but that is not the point!

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Indeed. Angela Merkel has already said he's fine with the amount just upset about the timing.

While not to the sycophantic extremes of Nick Clegg DC is a supporter of the EU project.

This is a no-win for him though however he tries to spin it. It's also a no-win for Labour, they are Europhiles. The Lib Dems we already know would have us in a USE at the earliest opportunity, Labour have tried somewhat to hedge their bets however this will push some more of their support over to the purple side.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Well done EU, you have just made UKIP's day :LOL:

Role on the day we can tell the EU to feck off

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

That's not likely to happen anytime soon old bean.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Den, are you saying we should pay this money as a fine on the success of our economy? How many NHS nurses, doctors and ops could that money purchase?

Trust the EU to reward failure and penalise success.

The answer is simple: Stop writing ALL the cheques and see how long it takes to cow the EU when it looses £8 billion net. We have the winning hand as a major net contributor trust Dave not to play it.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

We are part of the EU club and as such knew this was coming and as such we can't just pick and choose what we want all the time and then not have what does not suit us.

If people don't like it then there is the ballot box but don't expect us to pull out of Europe anytime soon as it simply won't happen as the good majority of people in this country would rather have us in Europe negotiating rather then having certain xenophobic politicians and groups pulling a strop and constantly spouting that we should pull out of Europe as soon as possible.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

The only vote there has ever been was for a common market trading bloc. Not this nonsense.

Roll on a UKIP balance of power holding at the next election and consign the EU mess to the scrap heap of history.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

And how much of it will go down the great sinkhole of EU bureaucracy, waste and extravagance. If Cameron gets back in, then I hope the EU calls our bluff, and he sticks to his guns and offers a fair and honest referendum.

Sadly, I think it WILL be vote Farage, get Miliband - pity we never got alternative vote, as that would have allowed voting for who you really want, and for best chance of defeating who you don't want.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

You are overestimating the influence of UKIP at the coming May General Election as many will opt for either the Conservatives or Labour when in the privacy of the polling booth and as such thankfully the party of racist's and bigot's will be very much on the outside periphery without any influence at all.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Why not? There was I thinking that's what the French have been doing for years...

What exactly is it that we've successfully picked and chosen all the time? Got a nice long list? ;)

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Don't hold your breath waiting for a response m8 ..... :D:D:D:D

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

If you want a real chuckle think of this - Greece are going to have to borrow another E89 million due to their economy overperforming.

---------- Post added at 18:04 ---------- Previous post was at 18:03 ----------

Do you not think it's perhaps a tad bigoted dismissing people who have voted UKIP as bigots?

Sorry and all that but you're coming across as having a bit of a Gordon Brown moment.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I you want us to go back to being Little England and pull out of the EU then this country will be much worse off in the long run as we are much better off being on the inside negotiating rather then being on the outside without a ounce of influence.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I didn't say that. I asked you to justify your comment which you haven't done.
Care to try again?

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

There, corrected for you.;)

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

If you look at most of the people who represent UKIP you will find that many of their views are extremely prejudiced and they also have many links to extreme domestic and foreign right wing parties and although you might find one or two good apples among them sadly they are in the small minority compared to the many prejudiced views of most of their party and sadly parts of the public as well.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Where does this Little England excrement come from?

We are the 6th largest economy in the world, and at a similar level in terms of international trade.

What was left of our 'influence' in the EU will be largely destroyed when QMV kicks in on a number of additional policy areas in a little over a week.

Do you seriously think those EU countries that are net recipients of EU cash could care less about the UK's position on issues? They want their development and solidarity money and vote accordingly in their own national interest.

I find the 'Little England' argument pretty insulting. I entirely see the argument for a free trade bloc in Europe, that makes perfect sense. There is absolutely no argument for the EU as it stands and, in case you hadn't already noticed, all the treaties are geared towards ever increasing integration. There is no negotiation to be had on this point; the constitution of Europe AKA the Lisbon Treaty that Gordon Brown signed in a back room as he was too ashamed of his deception is very clear. The only path as it stands right now to reverse this is to leave.

Pretty ironic that Little Iceland, population less than 330,000, has a free trade agreement with China and the USA.

It seems very clear to me that the UK's influence in the world as a whole, you know that other 7 billion people that aren't a part of the EU, is dramatically diminished by our being inside the EU. The EU is the one trading group whose share of wealth in the world is dropping.

If you want us to tie a Euro-shaped anchor around our necks and jump that's your prerogative. I personally would like the UK population to be presented with the facts and the alternatives rather than being accused of being Little Englanders and bigots then be allowed to make their minds up in a free and fair referendum. Free and fair as in absolutely no EU intrusion, which would be a substantial contrast to the tactics employed in the second Irish referendum on Lisbon after they gave the wrong answer first time around.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Hollande is desperate for more EU cash for France, and his opponents have admitted it (which he won't). So don't expect any support from him.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I would say that describing the UK as 'Little England' and asserting that the 6th largest economy in the world and the Eurozone's largest trading partner would be bereft of influence if it weren't part of the EU is pretty prejudiced as well.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

It's nice being on the 'inside' without any discernible real influence :dozey:

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

not so -its our cheque book their using that means something :)

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

typical Krauts, A German MEP when asked if it made sense to be asking money from Cyprus and Greece whilst Germany gets a rebate, said "the rules are the rules"

spoken like a true concentration camp guard.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Yep, it means that we're the mugs :(

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

And when we stop writing them then they'll come to heel. Nothing else will work. The trading group that really counts these days is BRICKS.

As pointed out we're the sixth biggest world economy and also a member of the UN security committe of five nuclear powers and a leading country in NATO. The EU count for nothing here having muffed the Ukraine issue.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Having known Dave for a while now. I'd say that he'll pay it but give a stern speech to the Great British People (previously Hard Working People) about responsibilities and all that. but he'll say something about rest assured if you vote him back in he'll be more assertive when they come back for more.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

On a rare occasion I find myself in agreement with you. :tu:

But assertive is not a verb that Dave is familiar with. :(

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Why is Cameron even the slightest bit surprised by this ,after all Eurostat are only using figures that HMG provide .It should also be noted that HMG have made quite a few changes in the last few years as to how they work out how the economy is doing ,they have included a lot of things they should have been including for years ,in other words Cameron has been bigging up the UK economy and now it's bit him right up the ass.

You could liken this to someone over stating there taxable allowances on their return and finally getting caught out

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I'll let Dan Hannan, someone I will freely mention I don't agree with on a number of things, give a more erudite and complete answer to this than my earlier post.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/ar...inside-eu.html

I would strongly suggest you read it and perhaps try countering those points rather than simply describing us as Little England and, without supplying any background, claiming that we would be much worse off in the long run than we are tied to this customs union.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Really?? WW2 ended nearly 70 years ago - let it go. ;)

Considering the British invented the concentration camp, quite ironic.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Well the Germans tried to rule Europe twice via war now they will do it via the EU :D

Just had to post that :LOL:

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

You may wish to check Britain's record on trying to rule the world before you condemn Germany ;)

And for a lot of that time, Germany were our allies.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Perhaps on hindsight Little England was a bit OTT but some of the points put by Daniel Hannan l simply don't agree with.

On his first point there are more benefits to staying in the EU rather then being on the outside looking in in my book as pointed out in this article.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...u-9213131.html

Granted London is a great city to visit but its also become very expensive and for many people wanting to get on the housing ladder its simply way too expensive now as even with the living wage its still not enough to get even on the first rung of the ladder.

We are also reducing our Armed Forces at a time when the world is increasingly becoming a dangerous place and we don't even have a Aircraft Carrier until 2020.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ly-matter.html

Most of our sporting events have gone out of the reach of the working man as they have simply become too expensive for people to go to them.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/footba...f-hand-1527715

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Den, what does the cost of living in London, our defence policy and the cost of a ticket to watch the football have to do with the EU? Seriously?

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

You need to add "Grasping at straws" :)

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

And all of that has happened while we're IN the EU hasn't it? It's a rather curious argument for EU membership then... :D God only knows how much worse it'd have been if we'd been in the Euro - that other well known sign of being properly in the 'club'...

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Difference being we were actually good at it. ;)

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Other matters aside what does this have to do with the EU? How does our being in the EU assist with our defence and/or projection of military power?

As far as purely defensive matters go we have nuclear weapons and are a founder member of NATO.

As far as projecting power goes we have airbases throughout the world we can use via bilateral agreements, absolutely nothing to do with the EU.

The total lack of a converged response on things like Ukraine, Ebola and ISIL show how unfit for purpose the EU would be on these things as member states concern themselves with their own national interest first and foremost.

The EU is a collection of states that are too different economically, socially, culturally. The sooner people stop obsessing over trying to homogenise very different states on all these levels the better.

This wasn't actually as much of a problem originally but of course the EU decided to become aggressively expansionist with predictable results.

---------- Post added at 10:52 ---------- Previous post was at 10:43 ----------

Written by a pretty serious Europhile.

It's half a percent of our GDP, but over 1% of our entire tax take, and would plug the funding gap for the NHS.

Same CBI that wanted us to join the Euro and prophesied doom if we didn't. Ya.

We buy more of their goods than they buy of ours. Regardless of whose economy is largest they have more to lose from being tools.

A good part of the rest of the article is operating on the presumption that the EU will, after following basically nothing but dogma for years, suddenly embrace common sense, after following protectionism embrace competition, and after embracing subsidy and 'solidarity' work on competitiveness.

There is absolutely no indication that any of this will happen. The EU occasionally makes the right noises but doesn't budge and remains an example to the rest of the world of how not to do things, which is why nowhere else has. Elsewhere free trade is free trade, not a political union complete with a parliament, a whole bunch of commissioners who propose the laws and who the public never get to vote for, and designs on becoming a superstate.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Look, it's a well known fact that if we leave the EU, the Germans, French, Italians etc. would immediately punish us by refusing to sell us all that lovely stuff they make and keep it all for themselves... :rofl:

As I see it, the EU would be down the UK's net contribution to it and the remaining members would either have to pay more in, take less out or do both.

The EU in its current form is like a giant supertanker sailing off to a destination which doesn't want its cargo. Despite what he's being told, the Captain refuses to accept it and won't change course despite almost reaching the point of no return. Meantime some of the crew, sensing trouble's ahead and they're not gonna get paid, are getting increasingly frustrated and considering jumping ship.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

It's really vital we stay attached to the EU as closely as possible so that we can emulate the success of Italy and France.

No link for France as their grief is well documented.

I would suggest that, rather than remaining in a political and customs union to subsidise their failure, we'd be way better off running towards the exit.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

To me the country has done well off the backs of the poor, stagnant wages, rising costs of goods and services and the huge rise in zero hour contracts.
This money should go back into the local community not for EU bureaucracy.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

It's a measure of their stupidity and lemming like attitude that they appear more willing to 'carry on regardless' than accept any meaningful reform. The reality is that ever closer union doesn't work and that their dream of expansion is fast becoming a nightmare but does this change anything? Maybe one day the EU will be seen as one of the shortest lived 'empires' ever. I just hope it's not too late to unravel this mess without a further meltdown in which everyone's a loser.

---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

I'd rather see that than it go towards further propping up the Euro-bloatocracy.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

If we left the EU and they punished us by not selling their goods to us they would be the losers with lost trade, we buy more from Europe than we export to them.

Our biggest problem is that we sold many of our big companies to European owners. Just look at the huge profits the foreign energy suppliers are making and where does all that profit end up, back in their own countries, we are virtually subsiding the French and German energy industry. There a quite a few European companies getting Green Energy subsidies, which are the highest paid out in Europe, for building wind farms all over the place.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I know that, I was joking, hence the sarcastic :rofl:

;)

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

According to the Times, Cameron's refusing to pay it. We shall see.

I wonder if this could be an excuse for the war the EU was allegedly set up to prevent between member states of Europe? If so, they'll get what they got in WW2 - a sound thrashing! :mad:

One question no-one has answered to my satisfaction: in terms of trading with European countries, why do we 'need' to be part of the EU? The States, Japan et al certainly aren't, and the EU doesn't mind trading with them. Why can't we go it alone?

The entire EU concept doesn't work and never did. The member countries are too different and have different cultures and economies - membership of the EU has not changed that fact in the slightest. The same would be true for the 'world government' so beloved to SF. As long as our culture is driven by the profit motive - the acquisition of wealth at all levels from individual up to government and/or corporations (if there's a difference!) - it can't work. Economic unity and free-trade capitalism are mutually exclusive; trading only works when the two or more parties have different goods to offer each other. If they're all the same, as the EU is trying (and failing, fortunately) to make them, there's no point in trading.

Only in a Star Trek type of world would unity have a chance - and even then we'd have to elect politicians who didn't want the job...because otherwise we'd end up with the harshest tyranny imaginable.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

They don't need to invade, they already control of us.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

That would be so cool if they did.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Bless....

A value-free statement from someone who has never been in the line of fire.

Good of you to be be brave on others behalf....

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

He said I drove whilst taking drugs yesterday, too.

Bless.....

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Well Angela Merkel has backed the EU on this one, and Mr Juncker has said that David Cameron should show 'political coverage' as 'nothing can be done.'.

I'm looking forward to reading The Sunday Times tomorrow.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

So glad we're in the EU and can negotiate these things from inside. :erm:

Oh and for those who wondered what happens if we don't pay, while it's not as bad as Wonga it's not good.

Fines could also be levied up to a maximum of E200 million.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Send in the bailiffs, it's what Dave would want.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

What's the point of doing anything about immigration now, everyone that wants to be here is already here, we going to kick them out, no thought not

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

How about we just don't pay any fines/interest, let them expel us and save us the cost of the referendum... Simples. :D

I think it's time to call a few bluffs and if that doesn't work well I'm sure Merkel won't mind asking her electorate to stump up the extra billions required to make up for the UK's net contribution.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

After selling the debt to a private sector debt collector for pennies on the pound to chase in full, naturally.

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:37 ----------

If that were the case gross immigration would drop dramatically. Not entirely sure I've seen that trend in the stats.

---------- Post added at 12:43 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

Yep that Sunday Times article is as unequivocal as the headline suggested.

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/...cle1476068.ece

I really do get a new appreciation of the influence we have within the EU with every passing day.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I think Merkel is right. Freedom of movement isn't one of the many wonderful aspects of EU membership that have been foisted on us since we joined. It is one of the founding principles. We can't say we didn't know about it and we can't reasonably seek an exemption from it whilst still remaining a member of the EU.

The pathway is now very clear. We cannot remain in the EU; all we can do is invoke Article 50 of the Treaty of Lisbon, announcing our intention to leave and compelling the other member states to negotiate our post-membership relationship with the EU. Only with a bespoke, negotiated associate membership can we hope to regain control of our borders.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

That would get my vote.

I am just waiting for how Dave will word his U turn on not paying the money grab from the EU. We have no choice but to pay it and no matter how he stamps his feet or bangs his hands on tables he will pay it. I think we will have a lot more UKIP Mp's this time next year and a lot less Tory Mp's. :rolleyes:

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I think he's going to 'negotiate a deal' (all prepared in advance) where he'll only pay half. and save us Great British People a load of money. and he'll come out a hero.

a hero ready for the next election. where we can put our EU super hero back into power.
because our fat super hero kicks EU ass.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

One has to listen to what he is actually saying: "We won't pay the money by the end of November"

Leavng the option of some shabby backroom deal that can be kept secret until after the May elections.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Oh we'll pay it. Of that I am in no doubt.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I very much hope Dave pays the political price.

Though I hope Ed and Nick pay an equally high price given that in private they're probably cheering the EU on here being the sycophantic europhiles they are.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Correct, Its the EU that runs this country not our elected Prime Minister :rolleyes:

when the EU give us an order we CANNOT disobey it.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Funny thing though, is that if you want an in/out referendum...if you believe DC will keep his promise......then voting Tory is the only way you'll get it.

Of course his get out clause is if there's another coalition.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

even if the torys keep their promise it will be one small party campaigning for out and pretty much everyone else voting for in.
we saw how dirty the Scottish elections got, i expect an EU one to be much worse.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Absolutely. The entire EU machine can weigh in on the referendum - look at Ireland.

Spending our money campaigning to win a referendum to ensure that they can keep spending our money. There's democracy at work.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

The only thing that does concern me about this whole debacle is what the international bond markets will make of it. We're borrowing so heavily that to simply refuse to pay could lead to some seriously "interesting" movements in that market.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

This thing about the immigrants/freedom of movement is a complete red herring.

Everyone in the EU has the right to come here and look for a job, and we have the same right to do this as well in other EU countries. But there is nothing in EU law that says we have to pay benefits to foreigners from other EU countries who have no intention of working.

Personally, I think there is everything to play for and no need to invoke article 50. The treaties are old and could do with a bit of tweaking while keeping the principle of free movement of workers.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

It wouldn't be considered a default of any kind and wouldn't be indicative of the UK's creditworthiness.

If the bond markets are feeling feisty there are a ton of EU countries they could attack, alongside the USA.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

The Germans are coming at this from a different angle. They feel their "influence" is being eroded by the ever increasing power of Brussels. That's the thing about "ever closer Europe" aka a federal Europe, is that no one country does rule.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

I share your concerns about the different cultures of Europe and would have preferred if the "pace" of European integration were slower, a lot slower.

To answer your point about the benefits of being in the EU, we are part of a single market of 500 million people which is bigger than America and its worth 11 trillion quid. All without trade barriers like customs duties and tariffs. Plus, we broadly have to follow the same rules.

Remember all that guff about Brussels rules dictating that fruit has to be the same size, shape etc. Well, that's simply so that everyone in the EU can trade on the same terms with each other.

---------- Post added at 23:32 ---------- Previous post was at 23:27 ----------

Cameron wasn't surprised, it was all show for the cameras.

What Cameron should have highlighted is the massive rebate we get back from the EU, the one that was negotiated by Thatcher. We pay less into the EU per head of population than anyone else in the EU.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------

It was never explained to our people in the 70s when that vote happened what "Europe" was all about.

It was never just about a common market but a means to integrate countries together (especially France and Germany) that had fought each other in WW2, so that war in Europe never happened again. Churchill was one of main people behind it, and despite her public musings, so was Thatcher. She signed every single European treaty given to her.

:)

Obviously, with this bill we have to pay, the subject of Europe is a thorny one at the moment, but that aside, everything is going our way.

They mostly speak our language in the European parliament and comission. They have adopted our free market way of thinking and much of EU law is based on English law.

The EU is wasteful and their accounts haven't been signed off. But we'll win on all of this. We'll get the number of Eurocrats cut down and even decide on one place where "Europe" should be based, rather than the current nonsense of moving between two different locations with all the vast expense that carries.

And the biggest blinder of all, thanks to Major, we can enjoy all things Europe, without having to pay for many of its problems aka we're not in the Euro - Yay! They, in Europe, hate us for that and envy us at the same time. If the Germans could do it all again, there is no way they would have voted to join the euro.

We have the best of both worlds, lets pay that damn bill and get on with it.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

No we have the best of what Brussels allow us to have anything else is forbidden. I say don't pay the bill and call there bluff. If that ends up with a referendum and us leaving the United States of Europe then that's there loss not ours. I have never been given a chance to vote on being part of a United States of Europe and i do want a vote now.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I was under the impression that being part of the Euro has kept the price of German exports 'artificially' low and hence been a major boost to their economy.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Because we get demonstrably less back per head of population (why did the other countries agree to it otherwise)

As net contributors to the EU your claim that we pay less is a red herring

If we pay £10 in and get £5 back and somebody else pays £15 but gets £20 back, we get a worse deal

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Is this a new precedent? If I get a pay rise, can I refuse to pay more tax?

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

The majority of the EU's 28 members are net recipients from the EU. In 2010 which are the first figures I could find as I'm not going to obsess over it 19 of the member states were net recipients, 9 net donors.

In 2010 our net contribution per capita was E75.26, which of the 9 net donors placed us above Austria and France and at a level virtually identical to Italy.

So rather than paying less in per head than anyone else in Europe we were in 2010 actually 7th out of 28, meaning that not only were we in the top half over the EU28 but we also paid in more than the majority of the Eurozone.

Or were you perhaps going for % of GDP? In which case our net contribution of 0.27% of GDP places us just 0.02% of GDP below Germany, obviously above the vast majority of the member states and they are net recipients, and continues to place us above Austria and France.

The rest of the post is largely a combination of recycled comments alongside outright fantasy. We can't trade with Europe without being in the EU even though Switzerland do, Europe is apparently coming over more to our way of thinking which is beyond comedy given there are veerings towards more socialist ways of thinking after a completely botched austerity spree, Germany regretting Eurozone membership when they've been the main beneficiary, France not opposing any attempts to pull Strasbourg off the gravy train.

A really simple example of how misplaced your optimism is is that David Cameron was, not that long ago, trumpeting how he'd won a reduction in the EU budget.

Here's what's actually rumbling through the EU machine. Overspend from 2013 to be paid for, and indeed actively overspent knowing it will probably be funded as QMV is coming in imminently across more policy areas, reversal of budget cuts for 2015, probably be an overspend in 2014.

Too many nations in receipt of other people's money who of course want to keep that flow going.

Just as well we have this huge amount of influence and are getting our own way...

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I think the referendum, should it go ahead, be on this subject and lets leave the subject of immigrants out of it. For what its worth, I don't want to be part of a federal Europe either, but I would like the chance to hear the arguments either way.

---------- Post added at 16:24 ---------- Previous post was at 16:15 ----------

But it's a double edged sword, isn't it?

When the sovereign debt crisis happened in countries like Greece, yes the Greeks were buying "cheap" German made trains, helping the German economy, but the Germans also had to fork out for bailing the Greeks out of their own mess...

I wish the euro would simply go away, but its the method the Germans and French have decided to integrate Europe together. Lets see how far it will go. Will the European Central Bank start buying up the debt of Greece, Italy etc? ANd will the Germans really transfer wealth from themselves to countries in Southern Europe? I can't see it happening.

---------- Post added at 16:28 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

That's the case now, but when we got the rebate it cost us far less and we got more back.

No idea why the other countries agreed to Thatcher's rebate, I'll look it up.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I'm not sure the Germans do 'double edged swords' which don't suit themselves...

"How Germany benefits from the Euro in economic terms."

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Because the civil service drafted legislation to put before parliament which would have given the British government legal authority to refuse to pay anything towards the budget of the EEC. This draft bill was never published, but its existence was quietly explained to the representatives of all the other member states.

They agreed the rebate because they knew Thatcher was deadly serious about derailing the entire European project if she didn't get it. Cameron should take note, because he won't get any concession worthy of the name out of the EU unless he is similarly prepared to put a bomb under it and wave the detonator under their noses.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

That button is the only thing they understand, I suggest we use it.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...6&d=1414517490

Attachment 25796

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I'll come back to this later, but I should've said we used to pay less into the EU coffers than anyone else, that's before all the Eastern European countries joined the EU. The very same countries we wanted to join the EU in the first place.

Why I am taking a pro-European stance when we've just been landed a nasty bill, I've no idea. I'll slap myself and wake up soon.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

Don't worry I'll come and give you a hard slap myself.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

The EU has approved France's budget for 2015,

It's the very last paragraph that got my attention.........now there's a stroke of luck?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-29810370

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I used to think that common sense could/would one day prevail in Europe. That events would serve to show the Eurocrats their vision was flawed - an illusion doomed to fail. I kidded myself that these people would finally see sense and accept reform - take the good bits and cut out the rest of what has become a grotesque continental cancer fast becoming end stage. I hoped that we could enjoy the benefits of closer trade ties etc. without the absurd straightjacket of a singe currency, unfettered immigration, ever increasing bureaucracy, interference in just about every aspect of our lives and a constant drive for further expansion. I even used to delude myself that these people would respect and accommodate the views of the populations of member nations and reflect them in their decision making. How about that for stupid eh?!

Sadly, these people have shown they're not interested in any of that. They do what they want and refuse to listen to those who have the temerity to disagree. They have learned little or nothing from the chaotic events they've presided over and it's full steam ahead for more of the same so far as I can see.

I used to think that in a referendum I'd be able to vote to stay in because some form of common sense had prevailed and we'd be able to enjoy the best of what the EU could and should have been without sacrificing everything else. I now believe that's just as much a pipe dream as the Eurocrats' vision for Europe. I see no prospect at all of Cameron being able to extract any meaningful concessions from the EU and have no faith whatsoever that, even if he did, they'd actually materialise. I believe any concessions these people offered would not be done so in good faith and that they'd find a way to worm their way out of them if we vote to stay in.

Yes there will be turmoil if we pull out, let nobody think otherwise, but I fear it's the only way we can have any meaningful say in the future direction our nation takes and detach ourselves to any extent from the Euro train wreck. A vote to stay in will be the final nail in the UK's coffin and will be used forevermore by the Eurocrats as a stick to beat us with - an argument for us having to suck up even more of what nonsense they decide to hand us.

It will be damaging and we cannot isolate ourselves from the fallout whatever we do but better to start the process now than let things drag on until there is turmoil and who knows what will stem from that. We may even be beyond the point where anything can be done to prevent a catastrophic meltdown in Europe but IMHO the least worst option is getting out as soon as we can and doing what we can to forge better, more productive links with the rest of the world. Surely irons in many fires has to be better than a deluded reliance on the leadership and vision of people who've shown themselves to be wholly intractable and virtually impervious to reason.

How to achieve the referendum? I see the only realistic possibility being an alliance between UKIP and the Tories after the next election. A vote for Same Old Labour, the Fib-Dems or any combination thereof will see more of the same and worse to come. It'll be interesting to see whether Cameron's so keen to stay in the EU that he would rather lose the election (i.e. refuse any possible coalition with UKIP) if he were unable to come up with anything significant from his 'negotiations'.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

For a UKIP/Tory coalition to be viable, UKIP has to actually win seats. The chances are that it will do well enough to steal votes in most constituencies but not well enough to win more than a handful at best. I know it's becoming a cliche but the way the electoral maths stack up, a vote for UKIP is more likely to result in a Labour plurality in the Commons, if not an outright majority, and the one thing you can be sure of, with Ed Millipede as PM, with or without a Lib Dem coalition, is no renegotiation and no referendum.

Our general elections are designed for a two party system and when people cast their votes for fringe parties based on a narrow range of issues, the outcomes are rarely what anyone intended. Only two men stand any chance of being Prime Minister after next May. The best course of action is to decide which of them best represents your views and outlook, and then vote for the local prospective MP who will support them.

There will be an in/out referendum in 2017 if there is a Tory majority in the commons next January. Cameron has been forced into that position because of UKIP. It was to achieve that, that I have voted UKIP where possible in elections since 2010. But now, the safest way of securing that referendum is not to play Russian roulette with our electoral system, it is simply to vote Tory.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

I agree. For the purposes of ensuring a referendum, voting UKIP ought to be only a consideration in those seats which they can win without defeating a Tory. We may not trust Cameron entirely but we can say with certainty that either voting red or yellow will ensure we don't get one. This is why I believe there could well be a UKIP-Tory pact before the election and Cameron could well cite the extraordinary intransigence of the EU as the reason for any apparent u turn on a deal with UKIP.

Re: EU demand extra £1.7bn from UK
 

The sweetie wife soon to be in charge up here is sticking her oar in. Obviously the 'sovereign will' of the Scottish people in telling her to shut her hole hasn't sunk in yet.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-...itics-29805045

I could see the Tories going along with this as a get out if their hand is forced into actually having a vote on the EU.