VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Right now I can discuss this as it's out in the open, VM appear to be doing a fairly substantial FTTP trial in Papworth Evarard.

People in the area are reporting seeing microducts appearing at the edge of their properties.

There is no phone service available, presumably due to the cost of the battery back up required to meet the service obligations on telephony, however broadband at higher rates than delivered over the standard cable network and TV should be available.

Onward and upward for VM I hope. Makes a ton of sense to build new FTTP areas and good to see them taking serious steps to trial both potential versions of the technology they can use.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Oh good! It's about time we started seeing more FTTP, especially from Virgin. Of course it being a trial could mean anything.

Also this is the only real source I could find on the matter: http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...lage-fttp.html

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Good news.

Igni, when you mention micro ducts outside the home, do you know if these will be linked to the actual home by more fibre or another way?

EDIT: I noticed on roadworks there's a few areas around me that state VM are installing new chambers, I know the title states papworth but wonder if they're starting to install for this elsewhere too?

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The microducts are what carry the fibre, Synthetic.

VM are doing at least one other trial of it, however if you're near an existing network area you're probably getting a normal CATV extension build.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

My area is covered by CATV so I dunno if they're just adding more chambers for... more customers or something.

I meant how does the fibre get from those microducts to the home? Is it going to be coax again or more fibre / some kind of cat6 to a box on the house?

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

There is probably no fibre in those microducts yet. When a person orders they attach another duct to that one leading to the property and then get the fibre into the duct.

What is on the end depends on which 'variety' of FTTP they are using.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

That makes sense, thanks for the explanation.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

I'll have to look into it.

I think it may similar to the build that was done in Haborough and Stallingborough in North East Lincs.

I think it's RFoG. No telco, but that would come later with voice over cable.

Obviously if desired it can be upgraded to GPON in the future.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Wow, perhaps this will see the UK *finally* getting a naked broadband service that doesn't require a phone line.

Then again VM's been claiming that on their DOCSIS cable for years, then charging people more to leave the phone line out...

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

It's something I've always thought Virgin was stupid for doing. Why bother forcing the addition of the phone line? They could make a killing targeting those that don't need it and undercut most ADSL providers because people don't have to then fork £15 on top of their broadband cost.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Line rental subsidises broadband and/or increases its profit margin.

Telco line rental is pretty profitable for VM, though they will be wanting rid at some point to migrate to VoIP.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

I can't genuinely see any way a broadband connection and a phone line can cost less to provide than the same broadband connection on it's own. At the very least it requires additional powered equipment and more time for installation techs to actually install.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Any "non line rental" deal will simply be like the "non standing charge" electricity tariffs available. You still pay a standing charge, but its added to the cost of the electricity used.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Most of the telco equipment is already there, and has been for years. If someone isn't connected to it, then it's sat there costing money to maintain without any return.

Even where a property hasn't had services before, I'd expect the cost of installing a master socket is pretty low in the grand scheme of network costs.

---------- Post added at 09:27 ---------- Previous post was at 09:26 ----------

Anyway, the standalone broadband costs on VM are cheaper than BB + Telco, just not the full difference, as the pricing will be done partly to encourage people to take more services.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Perhaps, but it still takes extra time, nomatter how small. In my case it took the engineers an extra hour of going back and forth because of some technical problems connecting the line, even though I told them to leave it since I'd never use it anyway, they refused to leave until it was working. At the very least, it couldn't be done without an engineer visit while the broadband could easily have been a self-install. The cost of installing a phone line might be relatively small in the grand scheme of things, but so is flipping a couple of bits in computer memory to activate someone's service but they feel the need to levy a £49.95 "activation charge" to do it... 50Mb broadband on it's own: £26.50 per month + £49.95 activation charge = £367.95 over the year 50Mb broadband + phone: £10 per month, plus £12 for phone (with line rental saver) = £264 over the year, over £100 cheaper. And if you take cashback deals, e.g. Quidco, the difference is even bigger - since you get £30 cashback on the BB+Phone and only £20 on BB alone.

£103.95 more over the course of 12 months for standalone BB is just ridiculous.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Fair enough, I wasn't counting the introductory offers, but the standard pricing, as people aren't always going to have those.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The ofcom battery rule is outdated. Everyone has a mobile phone for emergencies or should if they are vunrable.

A
If this was changed I'm sure virgin would go voip and be done with the outdated copper network

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The real question here is, will Virgin actually end up doing any sort of large scale roll out of FTTP if this is successful?

Also I assume virgin is at quite the disadvantage if BT can essentially roll out FTTP to any FTTC enabled houses (capacity dependant) essentially overnight?

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

BT have absolutely no interest in rolling out FTTP to FTTC enabled houses overnight or over months or years without being paid a load of money.

I'm sure VM will, however it won't be overbuilding their existing cabled areas for the foreseeable.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Sounds like we wont be seeing any FTTP competition any time soon then. :(

Say if Virgin wanted to turn an existing cabled area into an FTTP area roughly how much work would that require? Can they use much of the existing network or is it a case of completely rebuilding the network?

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

docsis 3.1 is cheaper than going fibre, cant see it changing for a long time

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The problem is those emergency support systems, like what elderly and disabled people have. You know, the panic button or the "I've fallen over and can't get up and/or might be dying" devices. They rely on the phone line. That's the reason the phone line is treated as critical infrastructure.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

I guess those who need it could keep the existing copper, but I guess a system like that could work on 3g

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

You have faster than FTTC speeds already - there are no prospects of VM upgrading areas when they could deliver the speeds that BT are with FTTP right now, 300Mb down, 30Mb up via upgrades of existing network.

Turning an existing area into FTTP would ideally use existing ducts and some existing fibre. Would probably need some more fibre, and each home covered by FTTP would need new CPE.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

At the start of this year my area was hit a *very* large storm (Red Met Office warning and bits of people's houses flying off). We lost *all* mobile phone networks within an hour of the storm starting and they were off for at least a day, and they didn't come back all at once, so some networks were off for even longer.

The landline phone network didn't have any downtime (except lines physically downed by a falling trees etc). The local exchange UPS kept everything going with no issues. The real issue was with some homeowners who couldn't make or receive any calls because their home electricity supply was off and they only had cordless phones (our local electricity network operator was handing out pound shop corded phones to anyone who needed one).

The fact is that mobile phone networks simply aren't designed with the same resilience as even a domestic phone line. Its very, very rare you'll get a "network busy" or "no free lines" type fault on a landline, but its easily done with mobiles.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Well the elderly and disabled people who need panic buttons and such devices probably aren't the target market for superfast pure-fibre broadband... BT still have a universal service obligation to provide copper whether or not VM also roll out FTTP in any given area.

---------- Post added at 14:29 ---------- Previous post was at 14:23 ----------

Sounds like a pretty poorly run area. Mobile can be inherently more reliable than fixed-line copper for a number of reasons, particularly if a mast is fed with underground fibre. On the other hand if an area is remote and accessible only via microwave relays, then it tends to be a lot worse when the weather comes in.

It's rare to get 'Network busy' on a fixed line a) because hardly anyone uses them anybore and b) because they're still running off archaic circuit-switched systems. Plus you don't get 100,000+ people all taking their landlines into the city centre at once at the weekends when they go shopping thus shifting an entire city's worth of load into one tiny area.

Nonetheless mobile can frequently be more resilient than fixed-line. Not always, certainly not with consumer networks, but the 'real' industrial TETRA and GSM-R networks are rock solid. Furthermore if mobile was inherently unreliable, the government wouldn't be seeking to replace the emergency services' dedicated network with rented capacity on public LTE services in future.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

None the less, if Virgin wants to supply phone lines, they have to do it within the regulations that OFCOM specify.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The reason I said "very, very unlikely" is that in the last 10 years the exchange serving my parents house (rural area with no mobile coverage) has lost its external connection at least twice (both times the main BT fibre was hit by digging works). I believe our local mobile mast is probably fed via a microwave link and that could be why it went down (at one point during the storm we were losing BBC radio stations due to the local high power mast's uplink failing during particularly strong gusts).

I really wouldn't put it past any government to downgrade the resiliency of even emergency comms in order to save a few quid and I can't see any reason to remove the requirement for phone lines to work during power cuts.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

As I say microwave linked masts are subject to weather constraints just like microwave linked phone lines - that said most mobile masts are also quite capable of working during a power cut, as is BT Infinity and similar Openreach FTTC services. Some mobile masts are even run off wind and solar power thus not needing mains electricity at all, but then they'll be microwaved which kinda defeats any benefit.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Hello,

I kicked off the thread on the VM forums and then it was picked up by the ISP review site. Still working going on, pavements being dug and trailers with cable reels parked up.

No word from VM themselves yet on whats going on, when I hear or see more I'll post up.

Guess I may need to change my forum name soon.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Well it won't strictly be cable, so still appropriate:)

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

:tu:

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Fibre optic cable is still... cable.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

VM still digging up roads and putting in boxes. Don't thing there is anything in the boxes yet, still no word from VM about whats happening but they are certainly spending a lot of money doing all the ground works.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

It FTTH RFoG solution.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

VM have a press release

Gigabit connections trial:
http://about.virginmedia.com/press-r...eshire-village
:)

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Nice. They say people will be able to get 152Mbit as well, I wonder if that's standard DOCSIS or if that's still full fibre.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

DOCSIS. There's a trial area of ~100 properties that are FTTP and the rest are HFC.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The system being installed can serve 512 homes.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

This isn't accurate.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

I don't know how many properties there are in Papworth Everard.

But I do know that the network being built can support, initially, 512 properties, and can be increased to 1024 simply by installing another bit of kit into the infrastructure that is built.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Have VM coming around this evening to give me the details, although he seemed a bit unsure about the gigabit trial.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Do let us know how that goes! Bit odd that they're sending someone out, that never happens normally so it must definitely be trial related.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Indeed let us know if you could. I hope you get to be part of the Gigabit trial if that's what you want. For sure it'll be impressive and as it is FTTP it should be a very decent experience indeed.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Well that was brief....

I have a grey Virgin Media street box and also a new floorbox close to my house but the Virgin rep was expecting there to be some small plastic tubes ready for the cable however I don't have this nor do my neighbours or the other 30+ houses around me I just checked. However I was definitely on his spreadsheet of houses that should be getting VM services. I bloody should be I've campaigned for it for about 4 years!

Other house a few streets away have these little tubes, with these in place he said connection is two days away:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2014/10/8.jpg

He is going to take some photos and call his boss and will get back to me tomorrow, looks like someone has cocked up!

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Update on this....

We are good to go as there is underground ducting in place hence why we are not seeing the pavements up to the house dug up and for me as I have a long driveway there is a pipe already in place under the drive and we found the end next to the house buried under some gravel.

As for pricing cause there is no phone for the 152mb service and XL TV its £74.49, free installation and £100 credit on your bill. Seems quite expensive as I have to keep paying BT £15 a month as well although I'm consider moving to Vonage.

The gigabit trial probably wont kick off until the new year now.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Install is tomorrow, I now have one of those green small tubes pulled through the duct down my drive ready for the fibre to be pushed down.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Good luck.

£75pm seems quite expensive but I'm guessing you'll be paying that when you get the Gigabit trial start too?

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

I hope so (if I get selected for the trial). I did add up the costs from BT and Sky for our current TV and broadband and virgin is slightly cheaper.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Nice! I'm looking forward to seeing your TBB graph :)

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

No Idea what a TBB graph is.

Install done.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2014/10/1.png

Fibre to the house and into a RFoG box where it coverts to coax for the Tivo and SuperHub. VM engineer tells me the gigabit trial will be fibre straight into a new router and coax still for the Tivo. Thinks realistically Q1 for the gigabit trial.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

The TBB monitor won't be any different from a normal one, guys.

Grossly simplifying the last bit of coax has been replaced with fibre. The kit either side is the same, works the same way, and produces the same latency.

The monitor may show less jitter depending on how many premises are on the upstreams. To be honest you'd probably find the statistics from the Superhub more interesting viewing incase there are 4 upstreams or whatever.

When the 1Gb trial goes live, however, latency will be lower than cable services.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Wait if the last bit of coax has been replaced with fibre and it's still using a standard Superhub, where exactly is the fibre <-> coax medium changer placed now? Or have they shoved an optical transceiver into a Superhub?

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

It's one of these:

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...31-10-2014.png

It's really good for measuring the quality of your connection, beyond just the speed of it. You should set one up, it's free and is a great way to know when your line quality has dropped - http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Lol I fail at reading. Thanks Ben.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

See below.

Re: VM FTTP trial Papworth Everard
 

It actually looks worse than usual.