Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Reading this article and this article do you think Openreach have been a little shortsighted with its FTTC decision ?

It seems more and more stories are popping up of FTTH trials like this for instance.

Liberty Global are also spending considerable amounts of money on network upgrades and expansion and they already offer greater download speeds than BT with DOCSIS 3.1 expected to arrive at some stage in the future.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

FTTC is a perfectly good "stepping stone" technology for the UK phone network. Remember most copper phone lines haven't been upgraded (or even inspected) since they were first put in. The FTTC work is running fibre (and more importantly ducting) out to local Cabinets/Nodes.

If Openreach decide to go FTTH in the future then rolling out FTTC will have made that job much, much easier. Openreach have to take a much wider view than Virgin Media and Sky when it comes to services roll-out, due to the universal service obligation.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Short sighted? Not really. 80Mb will be sufficient for most light users for ages to come and building out from zero to a network footprint 33% larger than VM's in the space of a few years was never going to happen with FTTH.

I'd rather have 80Mb now and FTTH in 10 years than 6Mb now and FTTH in 8 years.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

^ What they said.

The UK phone system has been in place for decades. It would be madness to try and tear it up and rebuild it in one massive job. Especially when for the last few years IIRC all the infrastructure would have to go underground, which would mean totally rebuilding a lot of rural installations from the ground up (my folks' place is fed from two miles of overhead line).

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Nope. Overhead plant is allowed.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Has it changed recently? Either way, FTTC is still a massive upgrade of the infrastructure, especially in villages like ours with no cabinets at all.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

The USO applies to a single copper line costing a maximum of £3,400. Nothing at all to do with fibre.

---------- Post added at 00:10 ---------- Previous post was at 00:05 ----------

How exactly do you think the e-sides got to the PCPs without ducting?

The work Openreach did was unblocking existing ducts and deploying new ducts to connect the new cabinet with the PCP. They weren't running miles of new ducting out to cabinets.

The total spend on FTTC doesn't make FTTP much easier, Openreach did FTTC at a bargain basement £80-90 per home passed thanks to being able to use so much existing infrastructure.

They still aren't planning FTTP as their next step, it'll be FTTdp, DSLAMs on top of poles or at the end of streets. The deployment of FTTC will save them about £600 million on the cost of FTTdp, or if you like considerably less than 10%, to their commercial areas. To be honest the saving will probably be more like 2.5% - 5%. Getting fibre to PCPs is easy, hence why they were able to cover 18 million homes spending less than £1.5 billion.

Fun fact - VM spend more per home passed upgrading their existing network in 3-4 years than BT spent on this 'massive' infrastructure upgrade per home passed.

If I order FTTP on demand the fibre isn't coming from the cabinet, it's coming from an aggregation node nearly a mile away.

---------- Post added at 00:13 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

If you are fed from a distant cabinet you aren't getting a new one. The upgrade to you will be worth precisely nothing if FTTC is deployed.

That's the wonders of this massive upgrade of the infrastructure, if you're fed from a cabinet in the next village FTTC is worthless to you.

If you're fed directly from the exchange and it's close you may get a cabinet deployed just outside the exchange.

You may even receive FTTP - as densely packed villages and urban areas should have from the start if BT weren't more interested in spending money on football rights than their network. Anything you get will be largely funded by the tax payer, naturally.

---------- Post added at 00:18 ---------- Previous post was at 00:13 ----------

Openreach know they were shortsighted running with FTTC and so little FTTP. They have already been thoroughly shown up by the BT TV Multiroom product requiring 34Mb, putting it out of reach of 25% of the BT Infinity customer base as their super whizzy fast broadband isn't fast enough.

They won't do a thing about it until it starts hurting their pocket. The barn door is open and the competition are beginning to take a look around it.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Competition is good for the consumer :)

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

The line I was describing wasn't supplied from a cabinet in the next village, its a direct exchange line running two miles overhead. The local BDUK/Superfast Cymru rollout is seeing brand new ducting and new cabinets going in, many in areas where there are no cabinets at present.

FTTH is of course the best technology available, but your not going to be able to rip out 40+ years worth of copper infrastructure overnight. As you mention FTTC work is clearing old ducting and installing new one, so that fibre that would be running your FTTH could easily run through it.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

How do you plan on the FTTH/P getting to the home? See the Milton Keynes rollout for the fun they had there, with pre-existing ducting.

No-one is talking about ripping out the copper and that would be impossible.

Where is the cabinet going in? There have, as yet, been exactly no cases of new cabinets being put anywhere besides directly outside of exchanges. FTTRN has been mooted but not deployed as yet.

If you receive a new cabinet outside the exchange FTTC will give you quite literally nothing as VDSL performs worse at that distance than ADSL.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

One's gone in to the centre of Gwyddelwern (green cab, 240v warning sticker, air vents, signs of the ducting to it having been rebuilt). The exchange is about 3 miles away.

And there's space for one marked out in Bala town centre (not near the exchange), which is having tubing put in for the new fibre ducts (along with my village 5 miles away on a different exchange) at the moment.

I would supply streetview links, but as these are recent developments and streetview in these areas is about four years old there's not much point. I might take some pics next time I'm in the areas concerned.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Bit more info from York FTTP venture

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php...rogresses.html

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

I'm referring to new PCPs, not new FTTC cabinets. There have been a few cases of SCPs being converted to PCPs but no totally new PCPs beyond conversion of exchange-only lines.

I'm aware of new FTTC cabinets, I'm typing this through one, they are planned to be within 50m of existing PCPs, maxing out at 100m.

If you have any cases of completely new PCP being built alongside new FTTC cabinet that'd be more interesting.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

I've just been to properly inspect the fibre works in Bala (next town along the road from mine) and to see these markings (in the attached pics)

Now there isn't a cabinet anywhere nearby that I know of, and from what I gather the exchange building is a fair way further on down the high street.

If my guessing is correct, then there'll be a new duct from the grey concrete covers, under the road, to where the new cab will be installed.

I could be wrong of course...

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

You need ducts to get copper from new cabinet to old one. Do you have a street name for these works?

Bala is getting a new street cabinet outside the exchange:

O S PLAS YR ACRE, STREET SIDE DSLAM CAB NMCKXF, TEGID STREET, BALA, LL23 7EN

This probably isn't what you are referring to though.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

No, Tegid Street is about 3-400yds down the main road.

This is located on the B4391 near its junction with the A494. There is a proper cabinet and FTTC cabinet pairing about 150yds down the B4391 which is now accepting orders.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

The one accepting orders is cabinet 6.

STREET SIDE DSLAM CAB NMBXYN, YR HAFAN, BALA, LL23 7AU on Exchange BALA is served by Cabinet 6

Closer to the exchange is cab 7 - also enabled.

Some properties in the are are also served by cabinet 1.

Will do this in full at some time but the postcodes in this area all seem to belong to the already enabled 6 and 7 and some on 1. None are exchange only.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Jesus Bala has fibre?

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Yes. Yes it does.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

I used to live in Gellilydan just outside of Blaenau. We was served from the Maentwrog exchange. I am quite shocked to see this has fibre soon to.

Wow. It only has some 500 lines or so.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Your taxpayers' money at work.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Yep, its the welsh equivalent of the BDUK rollout. Dolgellau went live last year/earlier this year.

Llanuwchllyn is, as far as I can tell, due to get a cab outside the exchange this year. OR have been pulling new tubing through the ducts for fibre, and other contractors have run a red electricity flexible duct outside the exchange.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Read this with interest , could someone tell me whether this could be an improvement over the current FTTC (upto 80mb) ?

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Yes it could - fibre is closer to premises so just like ADSL with less distance to travel the VDSL signals that these part-fibre deployments use can run faster.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Not entirely accurate. If that were the case all of the underground lines would still be paper insulated and actually they are all polyethylene grease filled cables.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Doesn't look like OR are interested in upgrading the lines either, the line from the joint box at the end of my street (about 50m away) to my dp (pole) is aluminium so from OR able to get 58/20 there, it degrades so much I only see 40/5 at my property, and of cause OR say they aren't going to replace it :rolleyes:

FTTdp would be very useful for me as the pole is right opposite my house but I doubt we'll see that for a long time yet

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

My initial Max attainable download speed was around 130mb owing to crosstalk this has now dropped to around 97mb whilst its not a massive issue as I'm still receiving over BT's maximum fibre speed I do feel for those further from the cab.

When are Openreach going to finally deal with this issue ?

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

They're in no rush.

It'll happen when they feel ready, and may not even be nationwide - the big drive will be to use it to achieve the BDUK-required percentages of speeds above 24 or 30Mb.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

I read this today not sure if it will happen but interesting.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Funny how they say "Mobile operators rely on BT to link their masts together" when the majority of mobile networks actually chose to use VM fibre for their masts... So much for 'monopoly'

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Of course it depends where you are. There's no VM presence here for them to use and Vodafone now of course own Cable and Wireless.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Sure VM don't have complete nationwide coverage and have to subcontract to BT in some areas but regardless their own fibre footprint reaches over 50% of the population so it's hardly a monopoly when most of the country's mobile services are provided without touching BT at all.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

They use both though, they use VM in areas where they have a presence (mostly their cabled areas). Most transmitters still rely solely on BT fibre though.

What it's trying to say is that Virgin Media and Vodafone (ex C&W) rely on linking back on to BT's fibre network at some point anyway.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Garbage, will never happen and written by some one that obviously doesn't know the sector.

Vodafone (C&W) arguably has a bigger Core Fibre Network than BT and Virgin Media's isn't too shabby either.

Dark Fibre, or wholesale of fibre is freely undertaken between operators on commercial terms and is in no way equivalent to the access to the " last mile" which is what open reach was all about.

---------- Post added at 20:40 ---------- Previous post was at 20:39 ----------

There's fibre speed.

---------- Post added at 21:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:40 ----------

That's incorrect. MBNL uses VM small bits will use BT tails but the vast majority is VM

Vodafone used to use NTL (VM) then they moved to Global Crossing (level 3) then they bought C&W

VM has a vast nationwide network, yes they only provide broadband services to their " cabled" areas where they have Access Network but their core fibre network is huge.

It's actually the other way around, VM and Vodafone will use the odd BT tail but only a few, and they use them to link into their own fibre networks not BT's

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

I don't know how you can claim this though. I live in an urban area but I only see Virgin Media jointbox covers in about 60% of that area (I am including their core network and you're right I've seen Nynex ducting on main roads in areas they don't serve with the cable network.

Same can be said for Vodafone, I only see their jointbox covers and ducting in about half of the areas I work in (the jointbox covers are labelled Cable and Wireless, Norweb Comms, Scottish Telecom, Mercury-the list goes on but I know it is all Voda's now).

They MUST be using BT fibre in these areas unless Voda and VM have invisible ducting! For example, somewhere like North Wales-you only see BT ducting, it doesn't matter where you go.

As for them having a larger core network than BT's. Are you actually having a laugh? I can only assume you work in an office somewhere and have never been out in the field. BT have a vast, vast network of ducts that they can use to run fibre anywhere. You wouldn't believe how much fibre is in the BT network and has been for many years.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Unless you know the routes the core network takes then stumbling upon the chambers is unlikely.

Same as above, Vodafone and it predecessors, don't have access networks so they don't have chambers on every corner everywhere. Just on their Core routes. Also in the case of C&W you missed off Energis, which like Norweb has the vast majority of its fibre overhead on its electricity pylon network.

Also everybody, except BT, already share their infrastructure. VM has fibre in Vodafone ducts, Level 3 ducts etc and vice- versa and have done for decades, they also lease dark fibres to each other on a commercial basis.

I didn't say they didn't but it's a lot less than you might think, and it's not BTs core network they would use if at all possible but fibre tails in their access ducts.

Many remote masts are connected by micro wave links and not cables.

Other examples I can give are Cumbria for example, there's mobile masts fed in remote parts of Cumbria where the fibre is run along the west coast mainline, then a dig of a couple km to the mast.

Fed completely independent of BT. You only would see a few VM chambers, if they weren't grown over.

Other instances similar instances are masts fed from core fibre run along canal towpaths.

There are loads of solutions to feed masts without having to go to BT, and if you had a wide knowledge of the sector you would know that without going to the default " it must be BT " stance.

You assume wrong, I've built and maintained VM's ( and forebears) networks for nigh on 20 years. I have intimate knowledge of its and other carriers fibre footprint.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Sky Seeks Code Powers to Support New UK PIA and SLU Broadband Trials

Info

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

^^ This. Half* the fibre in this city is strung through two pairs of SSE pylons running up the A90

* Probably an exaggeration

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Regarding manhole covers I saw one marked "Bangor University Computer Servce" on a public street in Menai Brige. IIRC this is for the connection to Bangor Uni's Anglesey campus.

In other news Bala has now gone live for fibre orders. What's odd is that Bala has totally avoided getting ADSL2+. The speeds available are ADSLMax or FTTC.

As for my line, they've started digging out the new duct for the new cabinet outside the exchange.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Interesting post I'll grant you that. Could you explain what you mean by "fibre tails in BT's access ducts". Surely if they have BT fibre connected to the mobile masts then it'll be going back to a BT exchange? (as they don't share ducts). Do you mean that at the exchange it then switches to another provider's core network?

I take your points though, but it is just strange as round here is very built up, VM have a cable network and ducting everywhere. There's C&W ducting right up the A-Road. However, I can think of a Vodafone mast that is fed by two overhead fibre cables from BT. There's another mast that's off the main road and also fed by overhead BT fibre. I can't fathom why they aren't just using C&W for these masts.

On the industrial estate near VM's hubsite a new duct was dug 100m or so to the nearest MBNL mast so I'm assuming they've now abandoned BT's fibre at that site at least.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

You have an "interconnect" or "meet-me" chambers where you have a handover. Virgin Media run a fibre to this chamber then it is jointed onto a BT fibre and run to wherever, a mast or an exchange. These tails are generally less than a km or two in length.

So the traffic doesn't go via the BT Core but straight onto the VM Core.

But there are other combinations as you suggest. In really outlawing areas where there is absolutely no way of getting onto any VM fibre, then the traffic can be taken back to the BT exchange and VM can pick it up from there.

There can be lots of reasons, but just because there is BT fibre running into that mast doesn't mean that BT are the sole carrier serving that site. There may be other fibres running into there.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

That's interesting. I thought I had noticed these "meet me" chambers and could follow the fibre tubes that looked like they then ended up in a VM chamber from the BT one but had no way of knowing for sure. Well if BT are doing that, then how would it help the industry if they just completely opened up their ducts? Surely it's a similar thing already?

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

I know this is an ancient thread resurrection, but there's been some developments up at my folks' village.

Background: This village is pole fed from the next village that's two miles down the valley (which houses the telephone exchange). There are no cabinets or ducting at present.

In the last week or so, a subcontractor has installed a number of BT branded concrete manhole covers in the village. One at the foot of a "main" pole near an electricity supply pole and the others alongside a road verge heading up towards the outlying houses.

The contractor (Eastern European) mentioned to my (non technical) Mother that it was apparently fibre preparation works.

My question is, considering the current copper lines are all overhead, will the ducting installed be suitable to run all these lines underground plus fibre, or will they simply run microbore ducting for the fibre only?

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

They will run fibre to the premises using the existing poles and overhead lines.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Its fibre to the cab, not premises.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Interesting one. I initially thought well maybe they are installing additional cabinets in your village and they will fit fibre cabinets alongside the new ones. But you'd really need to get those copper lines underground before passing them through a cabinet. I can't think where that has ever been done.

Are you absolutely sure that all of the current copper lines to your village run overhead? Are there less than 50 homes in the village?

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Definitely sure. There's no BT/Openreach manhole covers on the only road up the valley and every time an accident took out a pole everyone lost their phone service. It is a small village (probably 50-60 homes) but stretched up a narrow valley. There are no cabinets as far as I can see either in my folks' village or in the next one down where the exchange is located.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Okay. If you're sure on that the only option is something called FTTRN, where they intercept the lines coming into the village and install a pole-mounted mini-DSLAM to serve you.

They won't do anything with existing copper lines apart from intercept them to deliver to the mini-DSLAM - fibre to the cabinet means just that.

Essentially rather than a street cabinet you get the equivalent on a pole.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

FTTRN sounds like the only possibility for a village fed entirely by overhead lines. I'd agree with that.

It's never been done yet as far as I know. Keep us up to date with developments in your village it sounds interesting.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

It's being trialled in a few places.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Indeed it is, mostly Yorkshire as far as I knew though.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

No. They know exactly what they are doing. They'll be milking us taxpayers senseless for money to upgrade from FTTC to FTTS or FTTH/P by the end of the decade.

In the interim they'll tell us FTTC is good enough, and for the majority of the country we'll have no choice but to accept it as we've no alternative.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

If you want FTTP the solution seems to be to either be in a flat or live out in the sticks and get it on the taxpayer's tab.

I think we must be the only country in the developed world where the majority of the incument telco's FTTP is in rural/semi-rural areas.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/11/25.png

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Well same could be said for Germany's LTE coverage.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Really?

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/11/24.png

Seems fairly extensive to me. Built up areas obviously present different challenges but that's surely about the laws of physics, not which towns and cities have been upgraded? If they're running LTE at one of the higher frequency bands it'll be impeded more by walls, etc, for sure. Doesn't change that the cell density is still probably higher in the towns and cities or that they have LTE there.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

That map illustrates the point completely - masses of rural coverage yet fairly little around some of the biggest built up areas.

In case you forgot that's the way it was intended to be, the government forced them to provide extensive rural coverage before they could begin covering cities. The same sort of regulatory incentive we have here with public funding for rural build-out and not urban hotspots which the providers are already clamoring to cover among themselves.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Okay, although looking at a map of Germany that shows Dusseldorf, Munich, Dresden, Hanover, Stuttgart, Berlin etc covered by the purple on that map while the south-west of the country with no large cities is somewhat empty confuses.

How about https://www.telefonica.de/fixed/news...re-on-air.html ?

Those well-known rural areas Munich, Berlin, Frankfurt, Cologne, Nuremberg, Leipzig, and Düsseldorf being the first covered by Telefonica.

I can't say I know the regulatory background to Deutsche Telekom's LTE deployment beyond that because they didn't **** all their money away at the start of the century they didn't end up having to sell their mobile arm to not go bankrupt and have spent a fair chunk of change on LTE. Their VDSL rollout covered less of Germany than BT covered and I believe LTE was in part a replacement for fixed services.

A completely different scenario to the UK and FTTP where we just have a telco that would rather spend money on football rights than infrastructure and is probably best having the retail unit spun off from the rest so that they can set about trying to be Sky without handing Wayne Rooney et al the network repair and upgrade cash.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

OK, lets take a look at that map again, here highlighting the 7 biggest cities and metropolitan areas, basically the same as your list substituting Dresden which was 11th with Stuttgart which is 6th, of those large urban areas every one except Hamburg actually has fairly patchy coverage, noting in particular the Dusseldorf-Köln-Duisburg region, one of the largest urban conurbations in Europe, is also fairly patchy overall:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/11/22.png

That aside comparing the rural coverage above with the rural LTE coverage of D-T's (joint) operations in the UK:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/11/23.png

Note the almost complete lack of any coverage outside of the major urban areas. Compare with the map of Germany's coverage above - and then consider that Telekom Germany and EE UK have almost the same coverage, population wise: both in the mid 70%'s.


Ermm, I wouldn't have expected you to make such a huge mistake but Telefonica launched LTE three years ago, starting with rural areas first:

https://www.telegeography.com/produc...lte-on-1-july/

Your article is dated mid-2013, two full years later...

Presuming you're referring to BT Cellnet/O2 vs. D-T yes, that's correct, however note since the launch of VDSL and LTE there are no operators in the UK with nationwide mobile and wireline operations, so comparing operations of two separate companies in different sectors vs. one that does both isn't exactly indicative.

Well no, it's the same principles at stake (particularly if you look at the UK vs. Germany LTE coverage above). The UK LTE market has proceeded much the opposite way of that in Germany, with practically zero regulation and coverage/rollout defined purely by commercial/capitalist influences. We've ended up with practically complete urban LTE coverage with barely any rural rollout to speak of while they've had government headed incentive to provide rural coverage thus ending up with almost the entire country covered with urban areas coming last. That same government incentive is what's given us more rural FTTP than urban like you mention. Both have solely occurred as a result of the government saying 'we want rural' and would not have occurred without it.

Re: Could FTTC prove to be a mistake ?
 

Looking at the effort you went to there I sadly do not have as much time on my hands to prove people wrong on the Internet, so thank you for the correction.

The rural LTE there seems to be a completely different story from the LTE deployed here. It was a condition of the spectrum licenses to use it initially for rural areas where there was no fixed line broadband service.

If you could find me the regulatory equivalent that required BT to downgrade their FTTP plans from ~25% of their initial 2/3rds purely commercial deployment to virtually zero outside of trial areas that'd be great.