SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/t...cence-fee.html

In the article above regarding the licence fee, David Elstein stated that 2020 was when Standard Definition and Set Top Boxes would be going.

David Elstein is a former Executive for Sky and ITV.

I wonder how this will affect VM?

- Will TiVo become obsolete and/or cloud based?

- One good thing will be the removal of the general requirement to subscribe to the XL package to receive most non premium HD channels.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Good spot. With no disrespect to Elstein, I would like to see something more formal than a quote from a speech he has given.
If it is the case, at what stage will VM and Sky start proclaiming their PVRs to be 2020 SD switch-off proof?
The future of Tivo must be cloud-based, it's more rights issues than technical issues that will stop this happening tomorrow.
I think VM and Sky would have expected HD fees to be phased out to be replaced by 3D fees but 3D has not taken off so I assume it will just be lumped in at some stage in the future.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I think you're right about the pay broadcasters hopes that, as HD became the norm, 3D would become the next format that they would be able to charge for.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

LG have already talked about this being the way forward, however you still need an interface

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Sky (Now TV) , Netflix , Amazon Prime instant etc already offer a cloud based service without the requirement of a set STB meaning your free to choose from a multitude of devices which is far more flexible in my opinion.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Let's not forget the work Ziggo is doing in the Netherlands. Back in November last year, Broadband TV News reported "Ziggo has been testing the CI+ 1.3 version of its Cloud TV interactivity for the past few months... Starting Wednesday, November 6, STB-less viewers can also access the additional features. It is a worldwide first to offer interactive TV over a common interface."

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2013/...interactivity/

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

True - but one downside is that you are then reliant on the connection and kit being used being up to scratch.

Even if VM and Sky go fully cloud based, I'd expect they would have a 'preferred' access option that they would promote so they retain some control over the experience to improve any fault resolution.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

They support more devices than VM will ever do, and yeah fair point they have to rely on connection when on VM that isn't always possible I suppose.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Absolutely Ben you may very well be correct I'm not stating as fact , my opinion is pay TV will change and potentially offer you access to your content across a multitude of devices. I believe multiroom may eventually become a thing of the past with pay TV operators charging on number of devices for example a standard sub includes 2 devices , with further options for 4,6,8 etc.
Much of the consumer feedback I've read shows people want to access their content on their own devices as opposed to the STB the pay TV operator forces on you.

With cloud based services it allows so much more flexibility like bookmarking , profiles etc.

This is all speculation on my behalf , I guess time will tell how the future pans out.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Not what I meant, but I think you knew that already.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Could the current TiVo boxes be adapted via a software update to become cloud based (as they have a dedicated connection to the internet)?

If not, it would mean replacing the boxes again. Perhaps this is why LG have made no announcement about us moving over to the Horizon box- maybe BOTH will need to be replaced to keep up with technological advances??

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Yes. In fact, all VM boxes could be. If you can do VOD you can do cloud-based TV.

Here's one we made earlier

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Interesting. Would a cloud based system mean us accessing our own recordings that were recorded on a server?

If not, I guess it would in effect be VOD, but every programme would have to be recorded and kept available for a reasonable amount of time.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Am I reading this correctly? By 2020 it is predicted EVERYBODY will be accessing ALL programmes via the internet? Unless there are some phenomenal improvements to broadband in the next 6 years, surely that will lead to disaster? The amount of traffic will be terrifically increased.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Just google the words tivo cloud virgin and read some of the results. I'd even go a step further and say I'd be surprised if some sort of (small scale??) trial hadn't been ongoing for some time. I'm pretty sure that behind the scenes VM will be playing around with all sorts of stuff TV and internet related.

Cheers

Grim

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

It doesn't require any technology that doesn't already exist. But current copyright law may prevent it.

The difference between network PVR and VOD is vague. It's just a matter of whether you or someone else decides what gets recorded.

I don't think they are saying that. But anyway, as long as most people are watching broadcasts rather than on demand content, most of the bandwidth can be shared.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

All programmes are kept - it's just a matter of where and how we would access them. This is in effect the prediction of the demise of linear TV. Live events will simply be available at the time they happen, and accessible from that point onwards.

Even "live" news would simply be updated at intervals through he day, you would just go to the News and view it when you can.

I can't see any practical reason for linear TV to continue. It's a very noisy way to run programming - ie just pushing stuff out when it might not even be looked at.

There will no need to record, as every programme will exist somewhere.

For the record, cloud is just a nice way of saying someone else's computer! :)

How all this is managed, charged, how good is quality, etc, will depend on improvements to come.

As for connection - you're reliant on your cable connection, aerial, satellite, etc. Ok, more could possibly go wrong, but internet reliability is getting better.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

With Tivo if the VOD is down you can still watch programming you've recorded (usually) but if everything is kept on remote servers then that breaks. Also we keep some programmes for a long time (more than a year easily) if they are of special interest to us. There is no way anyone is going to store every programme ever broadcast.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

A few years ago this was my thinking as well, ie linear tv will end and it will all be VOD. Now that Netflix is here and is doing what VM's VOD service never did, ie giving a decent selection of stuff instantly available for a good price, I can see how most people think linear will die off.

Except, after "feasting" on numerous tv boxsets and films on Netflix in recent times, in my household we have gone back to old fashioned telly viewing habits. Where we don't have to choose what we watch all the time, its done for us. And we have to wait a week for the next episode of whatever show we are currently watching, which makes it more interesting than watching several episodes of the same show all in one sitting.

So, in my house at least, linear isn't quite dead yet.

---------- Post added at 21:37 ---------- Previous post was at 21:26 ----------

As for SD and STBs going by 2020, me thinks not. Perhaps on Sky, it could happen as they were the ones that axed analogue first.

I may be wrong on this, but for cloud based tv services, I think you still need some form of stb, ie for encryption?? And as for SD, there will still be many people that will not have HD tvs by 2020, especially those on Freeview. So I don't see the demise of SD yet. What VM and others may do is launch new channels only in HD and start to remove SD+1 channels in favour of HD+1 channels instead. And using six times more bandwith in the process.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Technology can mean an STB is not required. Ziggo in the Netherlands offers a cloud service for customers who have TVs with built-in cable receivers which several do. Encryption is by means of a CI+ card.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Running analogue and digital in parallel doubled Sky's carriage costs, so they had a big incentive to drop analogue quickly (compare with cable where the bandwidth was already paid for so effectively free). They will have to use STBs as long as they stick with satellite delivery because of the intricacies of decoding satellite signals. Will they rebrand as 'Land' eventually?

That will be built into TVs. Smart TVs already have enough DRM capability for the likes of Netflix.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Isn't that why they co-developed SAT>IP , as I understand it the satellite feed comes into a gateway in the house allowing the ability to use any IP device for example tablets/smartphones , games consoles , smart TV's etc.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

But you don't need an HD TV to watch HD channels. They can be viewed on SD sets, but obviously won't be in HD (but, apparently, the picture will be better because the source is of a better quality).

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Although that's dependent on the box having a SCART connection - if they do go purely HD, then all that would be required is an HDMI connection.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

UPC said the next generation Horizion version will roll out in the next 30 to 45 days. It will put the user interface in the Cloud and there are plans to locate the linear channels there too.
http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2014/...-to-the-cloud/

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Perhaps that will eventually replace TiVo and V boxes on VM?

It would make sense for LG to have a unified system for all their markets.

All the benefits of TiVo would be made redundant with the introduction of a cloud based system. Wishlists and suggestions could simply morph into an email/text being sent by the system to say X programme is now available for viewing!

---------- Post added at 03:57 ---------- Previous post was at 03:00 ----------

I can watch HD channels on my SD TV that is connected with a scart lesd, but it won't let me watch HD VOD programmes. I get a message saying that I need an HDMI connection, why does it require this :confused:

If we do go onto a cloud based HD only system, will this mean that my current set up won't work at all?

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Yes, but it's still basically a STB. It has the satellite-specific gubbins that phones and TVs don't have.

But you do need a HD-capable STB.

The content providers require HDCP copy protection on HD content, and this is only available on HDMI.

Yes. But I wouldn't worry about it for a few years.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Legacy STBs may exist for older tech. However, a simple app on a smart TV will provide the interface to "TV" with no additional hardware, just a BB connection.

As for HD / SD - streaming services like Netflix assess the best picture based on internet speed. If your TV can handle HD or higher, then it'll display it. No need for HD or SD channels.

If linear TV needs to exist, then it could simply be a "playlist" of programmes. I think even on demand will release episodes gradually to promote anticipation, discussion and shared viewing.

To tweetiepooh - With regards to storing programmes - every programme is stored somewhere. That's how we get so many repeats! Programme storage isn't necessarily the responsibility of the broadcasters, it's the people who create them. Which then leads again to no need for linear broadcasters - studios who create programming, which is usually bought by a channel, could be made available directly. Bidding wars wouldn't need to exist, so consumers won't get ripped off. It might suit some programme makers to group under a single umbrella provider to make their content available widely.

All of this is simple and doable if the infrastructure is improved and the technology gets cheap. Which it will...

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Yes, I could only get the BBC HD channel (at that time the only HD channel on VM) after getting a V+.

Thanks for the info. Spiderplant, I often wondered why I couldn't access HD VOD content.

My question was academic really, hopefully I should have a new TV by 2020 :D

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Presumably, the viewer's recordings will also be kept in the cloud, resolving the problem of limited recording space on Horizon devices.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

But there would be rights issues to overcome before this could be done. I remember reading something that said that a cable company had already done this a year or two back, but were forced to stop due to complaints from rights holders.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I thought the rather interesting line from that article was that this new service will not currently roll out in places where Horizon is already available. Which leaves pretty much only one place left of substance....

So, in 30-45 days we may see Horizon launch here.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

lol, I think it will probably launch in central Eastern Europe country maybe a small one like the Czech Republic.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

...yeah, you're probably right assuming there are any central Eastern European countries still around by then....

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Indeed. CloudTV runs on low end boxes (it's basically the same system ntl trialled on Pace boxes in 2005), so they'd be crazy to run it anywhere where they have already invested in advanced hardware.

:confused:

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

....Russians...invading other countries....etc

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

2020 before SD gets turned off?? Isnt that a bit quick??? A lot of old people have only just managed to get to grips with digital tv never mind HD! My nan has a non HD tv too. So does that mean she'd need to shell out 300 odd quid just to watch tv after 2020? (Be honest i imagine she wont be alive then anyway but thats not the point...)

Plus wont the introduction of HD only channels mean that some channels will go under due to the expense of HD cameras etc??

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I think that would be surprising. Why would there be any difference to the rights holders whether you held your recordings on the hard drive or in the cloud as long as access was not changed?

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I'd put money on it not happening, but worst case your Nan would only need to get a HD-capable decoder. Similar to how people with analogue-only TVs are able to watch digital TV.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I thought the same, but I read that there were rights issues when one cable company tried to do it in the past.

http://www.v-net.tv/dont-let-content...oud-dvr-parade

This link refers to the past problems associated with this system in the past, but also mentions efforts to appease content right holders so that the system can be utilised.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

It would to normal people, but this is greedy neurotic rights holders we're talking about here, some of whom won't (or want more money for it) allow VM to stream recorded content form Tivo to Tivo in the same house!

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I have no idea whether the copyright issues of having a cloud based system have been resolved or not. But am I the only one who doesn't entirely like the idea of "personal" video recordings being kept on a shared storage system by some company?

What happens when the internet link goes down? How can you access your favourite recordings if the recordings are on some remote server? I am not entirely sure that this "progress" is progress at all.

But, despite my tongue and cheek remarks earlier, it does look like to me that Liberty are preparing to roll out this system here.

---------- Post added at 14:47 ---------- Previous post was at 14:43 ----------

Because the company is supplying you with the recordings, giving you a service, rather than you supplying yourself, that's where the copyright comes into it, I gather.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

What happens if your hard drive gives up the ghost?

If your recordings are in the cloud, you can retrieve them when you get a new box.

---------- Post added at 19:11 ---------- Previous post was at 19:09 ----------

That doesn't make any sense to me. In both scenarios, I choose a programme, record it and then retrieve it. Is this not all semantics?

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

If you can record your own shows onto a server, I don't see what the problem is either and it does seem like semantics. But I think, but cannot recall for certain, that all the arguments were over the fact the the ISP/Cableco does the recording, hence providing a service, and that's where the copyright issue comes from.

As far as I know, Liberty are not (yet) proposing a cloud based pvr system. But if the epg is in the cloud, the "channels" are in the cloud, then one would assume that recordings would be in the cloud too.

Your point about the hard drive dying is a good one and with faster than ever net speeds now, it does make a cloud based system more attractive. I'm just not sure the cloud based system for recordings that we want, is the one that will actually get provided.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Slightly more difficult when they will likely have a SD tv.

Of course, when 2020 arrives it will be cheap enough to have a STB that includes a scaler to downscale HD content to allow it to work with any set.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I too am not keen on using a cloud solution as my only means of storing recordings. I firmly believe that cloud solutions should be used for archiving or backing up data and not for full time access.

For me the advantages of having a cloud only solution are currently outweighed by the reliability of the network and infrastructure used to deliver the content.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

....I am pursuaded that with faster net speeds, cloud based storage does become more viable in the tv world. And as someone pointed out to me yesterday, if your pvr dies, you lose your recordings. Whereas, if they are on a remote server, you've still got them.

But yes, I have reservations not just about cloud based storage but putting the epg etc in the cloud too.

I heard all these arguments in a office I worked in 20 years ago. Which went something like this, lets put all our files, software, applications on the network. Stop buying ever more powerful desktop computers and instead have "slave" machines, or cut down specced computers which can access the network. The network is the place "where it will all happen", we don't need powerful computers anymore etc etc. Some even said get rid of the desktops completely, and have everything directly piped in through the network. All you need is monitors. True cloud like.....

What happened, was things came along like lotus notes, then intranets etc all network based. Yes, the bulk of the stuff was put onto networks which enabled multitasking, but what became obvious was rather than having dumbed down, lower spec, slave machines, we actually needed higher spec, faster, more powerful machines to cope with the ever more powerful applications and content reach stuff pulled off the network.

So, perhaps, stbs may die off, but then the hardware (and I think there will still need to be some either built into tvs, plug in usb sticks etc) will still be needed.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Assuming the technology all works - and why wouldn't it!? ;-)

What if someone told you all you need to do is simply tick a box beside any programme or movie on the TV guide or in On Demand, and you then go to "your shows" and all those programmes were available to you - in HD if you prefer. You may even have an option to say keep until I watch / remove. And what if it was virtually unlimited (subject to VM fair usage policy I would guess).

All we'll need is a smart TV or an HDMI dongle. And if you don't have an HD TV yet, get one!! Stop paying VM for a few months and save up for one! ;-)

I agree, current cloud solutions are great at storing large amounts of data. With the appropriate infrastructure, all they're adding is the means to view that data - in this case video. I don't "see" any difference between on-demand content and my TiVo recordings.

---------- Post added at 13:22 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

PS - Sky are rolling out an update to their HD boxes that will give on-demand equal presence with their TV guide. Another step toward on-demand becoming king.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

The good thing about recordings is that you have actually selected in advance what you want to watch. The problem with On Demand is that you cannot select the programmes in advance in the same way. That means you have to flog through all the programmes each time to see what is available that you fancy watching.

If only you could flag the stuff you wanted to watch on the system, so that you could get a 'My Shows' section in the On Demand selection. That would be a good advance for me. But slotting all the recordings that you've made into the On Demand section would be a nightmare to sort out!

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

But i'm able to watch HD channels on an SD TV today...

That would be a good idea, the TiVo has this in a way with it's historical EPG option.

I said earlier that many advantages of TiVo would be negated by a cloud based system, but if this option were to be discontinued, this would be a loss.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Just found out that Virgin Media Back up & Storage will be closing on 31/5/14 and be replaced by a new cloud service. Affected customers should be receiving notifications shortly.

This shows that VM are taking cloud technology seriously...

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

It's progress, onwards and upwards! I'm all for getting rid of all these ugly STB's, the less hardware cluttering up my living space the better, keep it simple, technology keeps moving apace.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I disagree with him. I base my statement on current technology and am taking in to account the likely improvement in technology. The simple fact is that no current distribution system offers the bandwidth required for *every* channel to go HD. Personally, I do not think that even with the next gen compression systems being touted now that there would be enough bandwidth.

Now, VM have the advantage that they can save bandwidth in an area by temporarily shutting down the broadcast of a channel to an area if no one is watching that channel in that area. Freeview and Sky cannot do this. Also bear in mind that all three companies have a *lot* of infrastructure (at least hundreds of millions, if not billions of pounds worth), so they are not going to change that anytime soon.

I think in the long term, STBs will become cloud based, but not for a long time. Virgin have several million STBs in use. They aren't going to junk them anytime soon.

As for removing the need to subscribe to a particular package to get channels. I doubt that's going anywhere. VM staff can correct me, but I believe the reason they do this is something to do with their billing system. Whatever the reason, I think if they truly wanted to remove the requirement for packages, they would.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

I'm not sure it's really a billing system issue, from a technical sense it wouldn't be difficult to create a package lower than TV M with just the PSB channels and then have everything else as an add on.

However, there is an assumption that it would be cheaper than VM's current packs - personally I would doubt that very much.

Virgin Media list TV XL as containing over 200 channels. Even at 200 that works out at 13p per channel based on the cost if you just have it on top of the landline. There is no way that having them as individual selections would work out that cheap.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Now TV offer 10 pretty popular pay TV channels both live and On Demand for £4.99 , Talk Talk have upped prices and are now starting to include pay channels in the basic TV package. I can see all platforms looking to tweak there offerings going forward.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

So that's 50p per channel.

Virgin Media have been tweaking the line up recently anyway. Quite a lot of channels have moved down into TV M+ over the last year or so.

Oh and TV M+ gives you over 100 channels for £8 a month, which again even at the lowest count is 8p per channel.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Which proves my point there all tweaking packages , £8 is excellent value if you don't require a PVR , the cost per channel is pointless if you don't really require half of those channels plus how many of those are available free on freeview ? I'm presuming the 100 isn't all pay channels.

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Well no, it'll include the PSB channels, but that's why I assumed the lowest figure ;)

Re: SD and STB's to go by 2020 claims David Elstein.
 

Thanks for that it certainly appears there all fighting for the freeview/freesat upgraders or those on a tighter budget and why not because Talk Talk have been pretty successful in this area.