(Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Hi All,

Would just like your thoughts and feedback on BT Infinity vs Virgin Media.

I have had problems in the last 18 months with Virgin Media and congestion. Last year my ping time and speeds were awful due to high utilisation on my cable segment. Ping times would range from 15ms off peak to 900ms peak. Took them around 9 months to fix it and now the forum team are telling me that my cable segment once again is almost breaching limits and they are trying to raise it with networks.

In short I have had enough with Virgin Media and I get the feeling they are a long time off fixing these issues with congestion in my area. I already have 8DS channels and 2 up and congestion is still a serious issue. Although ping times average around 20ms peak at the moment but I do have constant pings shooting up to 40-50ms sometimes even 60ms. Speeds are also dipping from 120mb during the day to around 70mb in the evening. I know how bad high utilisation can become as last year my 60mb connection would dip to 5mb in the evening with a 1mb upload.

So this brings me to BT Infinity which went live 50m away from me back in December. I know BT will cost me a little more but I can add BT Sport to my Sky tv package which to subscribe would cost me around £15p/m. BT estimate I can get the 76mb with 20mb upload. I would expect more around 70/15mb that would be fine by me. I game a lot so would need a stable ping time. This is where I do not know how Infinity compares and I know each area will differ. (I know no body in my area who has it so can't look into that).

So with Virgin Media I guess my utilisation is going to continue to give me issues. Internet starts to feel a little sluggish in the evenings, nothing major bad yet but I know it will soon fall over completely. What can I expect from BT Infinity if I move over to it?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

BT Infinity has always had far more consistent pings than VM (sometimes up to 80x better). If stable pings are what you're looking for there is no better option in the country.

They're also a lot better than VM in overall congestion, though of course you do sacrifice some download speed.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Most services are a bit of a lottery in terms of what your area is like. Generally, though, BT (And Sky and most other DSL providers) are a much safer bet than Virgin are, the catch is that distance is a factor. Virgin seem to have improved a lot lately, but there's still plenty of congested areas in which you seem to be part of one. And since BT have given you a really good estimate, I think you'd be mad not to try them out.

Given that your area has been congested for ages, I wouldn't give Virgin the time of day and switch over to BT. Or possibly even Sky Fibre, if it's available? I don't know if that would work out much cheaper for you but the quality of the service should be comparable to BT.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Many thanks for your replies.

The bigger factor that has drawn me towards BT Infinity is getting BT Sport 1,2 and ESPN included and added to my sky for nothing. I think that would cost me £15pm if added on top of sky fibre. That is why I am leaning towards this deal.

What do you think of that? (I am addicted to watching football).

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

^ This!!!!

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

This is my TBB chart for yesterday on Plusnet FTTC. I've been messing with my network today so there are some outages. The big yellow spikes will probably be the SamKnows speed tests. In the main jitter is negligible.

http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...10-01-2014.png

With cable congestion varies from area to area; with FTTC there isn't really any congestion yet sfaik but if/when it does come along it will be by ISP rather than area. IMO that makes it a lot less likely that there will be significant congestion as ISPs offering an inferior service will risk losing customers.

This is my SamKnows average daily download from when I got their box to now. As it happens the VM congestion in my area seems to have been fixed around the time I gave up on them and ordered FTTC on 3 December. I think you'll spot both that and my move on 19 December too which was predicted at 66Mbps but came in at around 70Mbps. Upstream for me is 17Mbps.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/01/45.jpg

The red line along the bottom is because SamKnows have incorrectly classified me as ADSL2+ upto 20Mbps.

I chose PN over BT as their support is UK based. Unfortunately it's also badlt overloaded right now but they are setting up a new call centre in Sheffield.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Hi again guys,

First off thanks for all the feedback so far.

I have an ASUS RT N66U router - Now I know the HH5 is what BT send by default BUT of course I prefer my own 3rd party router which I have been using with my VM SH2 in Modem mode. I have asked live chat with BT if I can have an Openreach Modem instead and she said I can request one instead of the HH5. Is this true? I do not want to sign up then be told I can't request one.

Also, does anyone know the performance of the openreach standalone modem?

Thanks in advance,

EDIT - It appears after the lady checking with her supervisor they do not give a modem if requested - that is a shame. So would one off ebay work fine on a 80/20 package? can anyone help. She is telling me it has to be the HH5 only.. mm...

(Just do not want stuck on BT's DNS - I prefer google and opendns).

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

The Huawei EchoLife HG612 is the standard Openreach issue modem and there are always some on eBay. Why they are there is a little problematic - I don't see anybody saying "I've bought a Firitzbox or a HH5 so this is redundant" so just why are they being sold - were they replaced? stolen? simply redundant as FTTC was cancelled?

If you don't want the BT HH5 and want a modem instead then the simplest option is to go to one of the other FTTC resellers and see what you get from them. It will probably save you a few pennies too.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

There are lots of people buying their own modem/router combos, mainly Drayteks and hence the HG612 is redundant. And of course yes, cancellations too.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I would rather opt for Infinity as I will get BT Sport free on my sky tv package.

Can I just buy one of these modems and use it with my ASUS router or will I encounter problems?

Can someone link me to one on ebay if all should work fine with Infinity?

Also I have heard people mention about unlocked modems, can someone kindly explain this also please :)

P.S. Can I just buy one anyway and stick it in with a 80/20mb connection?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I've had infinity for around a month now and it's been fantastic. I've downloaded 7TB (yes, TB!) this month as a test. It's been a consistent 68Mbps (I can get 75Mbps but my download source is topping out at 68Mbps) with no drops, no throttling, no letters. It's been rock solid the whole time.

The HH5 is a bit basic but it does the job perfectly. I'd say go for it if you're unhappy with Virgin.

The unlocked modems basically allows you to get your connection stats. The HH5 gives you all you'll need if you have that though most of it is hidden on a help page.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

802.11ac + 450Mbps 802.11n is "basic"?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I guess my biggest reason for asking if an Openreach modem would still be ok if purchased from ebay is because I do not want tied down with the HH5 having fixed DNS and not being allowed to alter things.

Unless anyone knows different? I like being flexible with devices and not being tied down.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Openreach modem will be fine if purchased off eBay.

Openreach allow just about any VDSL2 capable modem to be used, although they don't condone it, they don't prevent you using any modem you want.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I can confirm the above. My friend bought a HH5 and a spare stand alone VDSL modem off ebay and both work just fine.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

So I no need to ask about BT bandwidth and speed.

So if one gets 80/20 with BT what will peak times be like. Again I know each every differs but what is BT infinity like in general in this department?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Peak seems unnoticable for me but I think this will vary per cab more than anything. Each cab can hold 288 and a maximum of 5x1Gbps pipes (from what I have read). Even if each one maxes out that's still 50Mbps+ each. Any congestion you will get will probably be at the exchange end or their overall backhaul.

Doing my 6TB+ I haven't seen any signs of congestion and pings seem to be consistent. I'd set up a TBB graph but my IP is dynamic.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Don't switch your modem/router off and you should keep the same IP more or less indefinitely.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Thanks guys you are very helpful.

Can someone please link me to the exact openreach modem I would require for Infinity 2 (80/20). I have seen some different white openreach modems and am concerned I would buy the wrong one.

Thanks,

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Unless the connection drops which it does do on occasion :) You get a new IP when that happens too.

---------- Post added at 20:31 ---------- Previous post was at 20:21 ----------

They're the same for both Infinity 1 and 2 I believe. The HomeHub5 certainly is so I don't doubt the modem would also be the same.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

There are only 2 different VDSL modems, the Huawei and the ECI, the techs give them out depending on what equipment is in the cab, but both will work

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Are both types the same or is one regarded better than the other or anything I should know?

(the reason I am after one of these modems from ebay is because I read that openreach no longer carry these modems with them during installs).

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

They're using 10Gbps pipes now I've been told.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:16 ----------

Yes they do.

Only BT and a few others supply modem-in-router combos, every of the dozen or more other FTTC ISPs still require the modem.

---------- Post added at 22:17 ---------- Previous post was at 22:17 ----------

Like I said they allow any VDSL2 modem so the exact type doesn't matter.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Interesting read

I'm looking to upgrade to fibre in the coming months when my cab goes live and have a few questions.

1. When the cab was first installed and I checked fibre availability I was given a downstream estimate of around 58mb however I've since been on again and it now estimates 72mb + and 20mb upstream is it normal to change like this , we are pretty close to the cab.

2. Quite a few of the old telephone cabs have been upgraded in our area as well as installing the fibre cabs is this now standard.

3. With an install will they replace wiring from the pole or drop wires ? We have an ancient old grey drop wire and I'm concerned it could impact speeds.

4. So far I've narrowed it down to either BT or Sky , do both now have a 1 box solution or do you still also need the Openreach modem ?

5. What are Plusnet like for fibre ?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Would the openreach engineer give me a modem anyway if I asked, or because it would be BT Infinity I am having he would not be allowed to give me one? Should I just buy one in case? I dunno what I should do.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Yes.

No. Unless there is a fault.

Sky still use the modem AFAIK.

---------- Post added at 00:56 ---------- Previous post was at 00:52 ----------

Pretend you're not on BT Infinity...

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Below is how my Virgin Media 120mb graph looked Sunday afternoon/evening. I was doing some stuff with my connection but it is starting to get worse each week. I think I will order BT Infinity 2 tonight and order an openreach standalone modem off ebay just incase the engineer won't give one. What do you guys think? http://www.thinkbroadband.com/ping/s...13-01-2014.png

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I'd hold off on the modem for now. If he gives you a HH5 then it's got the modem built in. If you want to use your existing router and you want to use port forwarding just set up a DMZ to an IP and connect it to the WAN port on your existing router. It'll just work as normal. I did this myself to begin with on my WRT54GL with DD-WRT (until it died recently).

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Will I be going out on the web via my own DNS settings though or through BT's DNS then onto mine like google/opendns?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Through whatever your PC or your first router assigns in the loop (your current router in this case) assigns. BT's DNS isn't awful anyway, but I still prefer my own too.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I never looked back or regretted moving away from Virgin media

I'm on the 80mb FTTC service from BT, it's miles ahead of VM in terms of stability/speed.

I have the HH5 and it works ok for my needs.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

It's hard for me to comment too much on a thread like this as I do work for VM. I also get the staff package so the price I pay is brilliant to the service I receive. I can't be unbiased.

I wonder what is going to happen on other networks as more and more people sign up. Surely there will come a point at which extra investment will not return sufficient performance and money to be worth doing at which point what will happen?

Ping is low priority traffic so gets dropped if the network gets busy. That's how it should work. So at the moment "BT" fibre is uncongested so pings are good. Will it remain good with all those new customers streaming TV content?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

People have been saying this for the last four years. So far, there's no evidence of any upcoming meltdown or service degradation.

Both OFCOM figures and user experience shows speeds remaining fairly steady or even improving, presumably due to further network investment, over the last few years. So far it's keeping up.

As for pings, they are NOT low priority traffic. Neither VM or BT classify or prioritize traffic by type, although VM do deprioritize P2P during peak hours.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Don't forget to also post back on the VM H&S site Lancing thread when you get BT21CN ands gives us an objective appraisal/comparison with VM BB!
We'll miss you! :(

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Don't you worry horse, I will not be dropping my activity on the VM forums. I will remain active as I am wanting to make sure they get the service correct on my segment. (I will not have a VM connection to monitor though - Unless you have any ideas?).

I have no idea what to expect from BT Infinity but after 18 months of complaining on the Virgin Media forums and only 2 months rest bite from high utilisation I feel I am left with no choice but to try FTTC.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I've said it numerous times on this forum, but the best way to tell Virgin how you feel is to vote with your feet - people should naturally gravitate to the best service on offer. "Best" is a relative term, for some people price is what matters most, others care about pings and others want better headline download speeds. No matter what, don't show them any kind of loyalty if you can get a better service for yourself elsewhere.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Can someone please explain the whole BT Infinity activation process -

Where do I stand If I have it installed and notice after 5 days that my pings are terrible,speed isn't great and peak times are just no good.

Where do I stand?

Many thanks,

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

I suspect 5 days may be insufficient time due to DLM to reasonably assess your line anyway? I'd doubt you see anything like the peak time contention you get with VM but speeds could take more than 5 days to optimise?
If BT have a similar 28day "Satisfaction Guarantee" as VM's then you'd have at least a month assuming you don't give VM their 30 day Termination notice too early?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

In an alternate universe. In this one that simply won't happen. Had your migration been the other way around FTTC -> cable it may well have done.

Regarding DLM. Your modem syncs at the highest rate it can that maintains the target noise margin which by default is 6dB. If high noise levels force a resync it will do the same again but at a lower rate because of the noise. If that happens several times the target noise margin will be increased to maintain stability. On FTTC you really aren't likely to see noise problems as the line is far shorter than most ADSL connections and you get a decent filtered faceplate installed by the Openreach bloke. Most of the problems with ADSL are caused by internal phone wiring and the faceplate pretty much eliminates those.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

You say that, but there are plenty of horror stories out there, especially when you need to get openreach involved. Still, the chances are considerably lower than compared to Virgin, I'm just say don't say never.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Openreach are a nightmare but mostly for failing to turn up. I had that once and the new date they gave me was well after the date I'd given VM to cancel so I blagged a discount to stay with VM instead.

If there is a bad sync that will be immediately obvious from a speedtest and a below estimate speed means you can cancel it - that's why the speed estimates are virtually always conservative.

I'll agree you can never say never but the odds are that all will be well.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Well I hope they do make the date that I have selected as I have had to book a day off work for them to do the install. Hope they do not mess me around.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

They turned up just fine for mine.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

What would happen if your speeds drop because of noise. Will openreach investigate this? and even fix it? I am hoping for the same :)

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

They're obliged to as they provide the service. If it's not fit for purpose or has an obvious fault then they will be responsible. But as said above it'll be less likely due to the massive reduction in line length until it hits fiber.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Openreach allow 90 days to cancel if your speed falls below half of that advertised last I recall.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

It's not up to Openreach as they are not public facing and you have no contract with them at all - your contract is with your chosen ISP.

Things can and do go badly wrong with phone lines.

If there is audible noise on voice you can report a voice fault and the phone provider will get Openreach out to check and fix it. They don't always succeed. I had a bad joint that caused problems with the internet but also noise on voice which was causing me earache from my wife. I reported this as a voice fault and had 5 different OR blokes out none of who fixed it. The last one was smart enough to spot that there was only noise with the router connected and told be I had to report it as a broadband fault through the ISP (O2 at the time).

Now those symptoms are spot on for what is known as an HRDIS fault - high resistance disconnect - the ADSL signal gets rectified by the bad joint and you hear this as an audible noise - it's just like the old crystal sets from the early days of radio. Sadly the O2 CR were useless and first increased the target noise margin which drops the speed but doesn't alter the noise on speech. Their next idea was to swap out the router - another pointless thing to do. They then sent the replacement to my old address. I gave up on them at that point and took cable instead.

I knew from the outset what the problem was and that ISPs will try to avoid calling out OR because there can be a penalty charge if the fault is with the customers kit and that always creates bad feeling.

Even after all that hassle I still took a chance on FTTC again. I made sure I didn't cancel cable until it was in though. I was lucky - my new phone line from the cab to my house is fine. The hops from the exchange to the cab may well be as dodgy as hell but I don't care as I now use a VOIP phone for the landline so for me the bit of line upstream of the cabinet never gets used.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Hi guys, I am taking a look on ebay with a view to pick up a cheap openreach modem. I have no idea on release dates on any of these models/revisions

Does it not matter at all what I buy for upto 80/20mb service?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

For the third time, any VDSL2 modem will do.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Many thanks.

How would I set up say the openreach ECI modem to my Asus RT N66U router. What settings would one have to enter?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

username: bthomehub@btbroadband.com
password: anything.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Thank you.

Do you have to set PPPoE?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Yes, PPPoE

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Also I am reading alot about unlocked modems. Is this a big deal? What can you obtain/do with it?

Should I be fussed?

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

No.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

It allows you to get your line stats, that's all. The HH5 will get this info for you from the internal modem but the modem and other HH setups won't.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Many thanks for your answers, I think I will try and get a standalone openreach modem to hook up to my ASUS RT N66U router (I like it alot). I also have a HH5 coming. I guess if I do have line problems I could always hook the HH5 up to gain access to the stats - Could I also connect the HH5 direct to the seperate modem to prevent disconnecting the modem so that the DLM would not kick in - Just to have a nose at the stats? (I know there would be a double modem going on there so not sure if that would work?) Just trying to cover all bases.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Short answer no. Don't worry about DLM issues if you are just doing the one swap and back. I doubt you'll need to do it anyway but if you choose an HG612 you can unlock it and get the stats from that.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

DLM exists to prevent the IP profile issues you would normally have had in the past with ADSL, so don't worry about it. I've reset my router/modem about 5-6 times in a row with no loss in speed. Just don't do it in the first 10 days when there is a learning period.

The HH5 does have a WAN port so you could use it the same way the HH4 and below were used from a standalone modem should you want to.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Yes he can hook up the HH5 to an external modem but it won't show the stats from it sfaik which was the only reason he had for doing that.

The only way to get the stats if using the Asus router would be to use it with an unlocked modem.

Re: (Advice) ThinkingOf Leaving Virgin Media 120mb For BT Infinity Up To 76mb
 

Not a trick question but a genuine interest in how you performed a Risk Assessment and comparative evaluation on potential advantages of BT21CN over VM?

Mainly because despite being a VM customer consistently on a low end tier for 15yrs I've also regularly looked at alternative ADSL ISPS's and obviously in latter times then BT's Infinity.

So some criteria and "intangible risks" I've looked at that probably only relates to my limited usage profile and not any avid gamester or torrenter, downloader or video streamer:

1. Just as one can't statistically evaluate the reliability/performance of an areas VM tier from the VM H&S forum site posts neither from my many cursory reviews of BT Support site posts can you achieve any better objective evaluation of Infinity?

2. Probably like many others I lazily attribute an advantage to opting for "bundles" that include my eclectic needs for Phone, TV and BB as it results in a more logistically simple single payment methodology. I appreciate more discerning subscribers will evaluate their specific specialised needs for gaming etc will attribute more "Value add" in perhaps selecting different services from different ISP's?

3. Old IT habits die hard so over 4 decades (I'm permanently retired now) I still retain and apply concepts of Disaster Recovery,Continuity of Production, Back ups and Risk Assessment strategies to provide commensurate redundancy for telephone,TV and broadband irrespective of "main" ISP(s) involved.

4. Therefore based on the above criteria I notice the following crude comparisons between BT & VM:

a) BT seem to also have an Off shore (Indo-Asian) call centre support methodology? Which appears to have as much credibility and derision as VM's Level1 offshore support! ;)

b) BT seem to have some satisfaction guarantee(conceptually similar to VM's 28day one) with some forum posts suggesting from 10 days to even 90days!?

c) BT seem to be a far more realistically conservative in their initial speed estimates prior to installation, thus many find their actual installed data rates exceed or always consistently come within 10% of that initial advertised(?) estimated prediction. However like VM's reliability during a fixed term contract there's no indication of how easy it is to get compensation for degraded service nor exit a contract term without penalty?

d) However there's also much confusion over how DLM is instigated with diametrically opposed views of whether this is 10days on FTTC or 48hrs and what user provoked multiple Modem reboots within a certain period will re-invoke DLM triggers with a risk of IP Profile being changed to a lower data rate?

e) Equally this leads to problematic issue of re-setting the IP Profile when DLM may have been artificially confused by aforementioned user actions?

f) Thus guarantee of service speeds also seem confusing with only some tenuous guarantee related to 15Mbps minimum and no other distinction between Infinity 1 or Infinity 2 data rates not meeting it's original installed (or install + 10day) rate at some time in the future?

g) While "contention","congestion" or "over-utilisation" appear further back in BT F/O network relative to VM's last mile + HEAD END, there's still some disconcerting pointers on BT Forum that circumstantially point to BT can user connection increase causing suggestion? No doubt related to "crosstalk" before "vectoring" rollout but still a potential issue perhaps in some areas?

h) As regards TV bundling then BT's Infinity sales spin seems nothing more than a FreeView service that requires a terrestrial aerial anyway? As such apart from an STB it doesn't seem to provide any additional value add over a subscribers own Smart TV with embedded Freeview anyway?
BT also seem to leverage Sky as another option but not AFAIK any significant TVIP to equate with VM's TV STB service??

i) then there's the rather discouraging concept of BT OR actually potentially charging for tech visit if NFF?

j)Of course their Forum support does appear to have a more hands-on and responsive BT level2 team (that's not intended as any denigration of any individual VM's forum team members but merely the higher management commitment to staffing resource support levels on BT)?.

Now while I hopefully try and retain some objectivity there are undoubtedly many incorrect interpretations I've made in my cursory comparisons and thus why I'm genuinely interested in other opinions particularly yourself Blue that has already endured some of VM's reliability issues in past for a protracted period?.

FWIW I've used BT(or GPO back in the age of dinosaurs with 300baud jack plug modem) in the past and as a landline and later via dialup V56 and also when migrating to NTL digital TV(+embedded CM) + telephone but still retained BT telephone as backup until mobiles reduced in price and became a viable backup to landline.

However it just seems as much confusion caused by "myth", mis information and probably to a lesser degree "marketing spin" on BT fora as that found on VM fora?
The grass is always greener to some extent no doubt?

That said my "half-a-gut" feeling ;) is that on the whole BT Infinity is on average more reliable and consistent in basic data rates and latency generally than VM and I'm still tempted (like Seph already has done for some time now) to use BT Infinity bundle as a "back up" to replace my current FreeSat,Sky and MobileBB dongle alternative strategies?

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

I pre-emptively decline your invitation to any kind of social gathering - I think the blistering excitement of the discussion might kill me.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

The DLM question is easy to answer. DLM runs 24x7 on BTw systems from day 1 onwards. The only significance of the 10 days for ADSL is that the lowest sync rate during the first 10 days is recorded and no fault is accepted if the sync rate remains within 70%(iirc) of the recorded minimum. I don't know what it is with FTTC but quite probably the same.

The way it works is simple too. There is no "line training" - how do you train a length of twisted pair cable? Nor any "test to see what speeds can be achieved" on BTw systems although I believe Sky may start artificially low then go higher. All that happens on BTw is that there is a default target noise margin of 6dB set and the router/DSLAM negotiate the highest sync rate with that margin at the time. Increasing noise may cause the margin to fall. If it falls far enough sync is lost and then re-established still with that noise margin so as the noise was higher than means a lower sync. This is an ongoing process. If the software determines there have been excessive resyncs the target margin gets increased in 3dB steps up to (iirc) 15dB in an attempt to achieve stability. A long period of stability (typically a couple of weeks) is rewarded with a reduced noise margin - only down to 6dB although some ISPs will manually set it at 3dB. Really bad lines can be set at a fixed rate rather than rate adaptive.

A BRAS profile (maximum datarate) is set based on sync. The old system was an immediate reduction for lower sync and delayed increase - sometimes as long as 5 days. The newer system makes closer to instant changes but as it was developed after the days when I took much of an interest in this stuff I don't know the details. The equipment datarate gets passed to ISPs and they sometimes have delays updating theirs so you can get "stuck profiles" with lower data rates than the sync could support.

The problems I saw in my days on cable were what I suspect were cowboy installers juggling customer connections to cabinet taps leading to short outages and twice in my case out of spec power levels that had to be fixed. The biggest problem though was congestion which kept raising its ugly head and I think is down to the low capacity local pipes cable has coupled with VM's determination to keep "unlimited" in their advertising.

I never really had many problems in my ADSL days apart from a duff line which never got fixed when I moved house and that drove me to cable. The sort of problems I saw reported on boards were frequently down to poor internal house phone wiring. Other issues after ADSL had been around a few years were cheapskate ISPs cramming far more customers on the expensive BT kit than it could sensibly support leading to huge peak time slowdowns. Early LLU operators for the most part were first rate but some of the later arrivals were poor too.


I haven't been on FTTC long enough to see any problems at all so far.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Not quite. The system doesn't tend to modify target SNR as often, but actually prefers to put your line on a capped profile, with a minimum and maximum speed it can sync at. With excessive resyncs, it'll both reduce your maximum line speed directly (not via adjusting SNRM) and increase interleaving/INP depending on the cause.

It can take weeks or months for a capped profile to be automatically removed from your line, and often it goes up gradually. As an example my line was capped down to about 47Mbps after I messed about with it for a while, and gradually went back up to the full 80Mbps by increasing in approximately 5Mbps steps every week or so.

The newer system is instant. Or rather, every time you reconnect your PPPoE session, the server obtains the live sync rate from the DSLAM (well, not directly) and sets your IP/BRAS profile to be exactly 96.8% of that.

IP profiles are only adjusted upon PPPoE reconnect, so if your line resyncs without your PPPoE session resetting, your IP profile will not adjust until your next PPPoE reconnect.

It is worth noting IP profiles *only* apply to BTw connections. LLU providers (i.e. Sky) do not have a BRAS/IP profile.

BT, in my experience, have been generally good at keeping up with capacity increases and congestion. Longest period of congestion I ever saw during my 2.5 years on BT Infinity was around 3 days.

Openreach as well, have been very proactive in keeping the cabinet loops on FTTC up to scratch. This is made easy partly because of the massive overprovisioning of spare fibre when they built the network, as well as it being a relatively new, modern infrastructure that is easily upgradeable. Each cabinet has the ability to be fed with enough capacity to exceed a dozen VM nodes.

Personal experience aside, OFCOM's national figures have shown FTTC's peak time speed losses, a key marker of congestion, jitter, and packet loss to be consistently lower than on VM, and sometimes several orders of magnitude lower.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

That sounds like it's new behaviour from when I last took any real interest in the idiosyncracies of BT based systems about 5 years or so ago - as soon as an LLU provider became available to me so I could escape the tyranny of BTw DLM as it was in those days and presumably still is on 20C ADSL. The LLU ISP was UKOnline using Easynet infrastructure which later got bought out by Sky. I left them after a year to go with O2 purely on price. Both were excellent.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

U need mk2 openreach faceplate for FTTC

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2014/01/37.jpg

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

The Openreach FTTC DLM is a completely new beast and quite different to the traditional ADSL DLM. It wouldn't have been in use 5 years ago.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

AFAIK there is no training period on FTTC products

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

The other great thing with FTTC is there should be no local congestion issues with it all being fiber, unlike the limited bandwidth of copper that I believe virgin uses (not all cabs are linked with fiber).

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Fibre has limited bandwidth as well, you know. It's just....better than copper. A lot better.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Of course, but it's no where near as pitiful as copper. A single fiber can carry over 1Tbps of bandwidth. copper will never come close :)

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Probably not, but then again is BT's fibre running at 1Tbit capacity? I would have thought they'd be 1Gbps or possibly 10Gbps if you're lucky. Even copper, shielded copper like what VM has, can hit speeds above 1Gbps though I'd doubt Virgin's do.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

No of course not. I thought it was 1Gbps but someone in this topic said it's now 10Gbps. That's still a lot more than VM use.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

The biggest difference comes down to the fact each street cab is fed by multiple fibres on Openreach FTTC, each street cab is fed by less than one fibre on Virgin Media FTTN.

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:35 ----------

I've not done a spectral analysis of VM's copper to see how much of the spectrum they actually use - but even the copper coax can carry up to 5-6Gbps under good conditions.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Is that true for all VM cabs? I know that some aren't even fed by fibre but more coax, but is it really only one fibre at most? Surely some of the busier areas have additional capacity?

Seems from various stats posted that Virgin is attempting to improve conditions, though? This is well above my understanding of things but don't they seem to be at least attempting to clean up the network and boost things like modulation?

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

None of the street (distribution) cabs are fed by any fibre at all.

Only the optical nodes are fed by fibre and each fibre is then split into multiple coax.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

You assume of course the underlying tech (DOCSIS3) can also cope with the speed, which if I'm right in thinking, it can't. I think it tops out at 1Gbps but that tech isn't adopted widely by VM yet (only in trial areas?).

FTTC is flat out fiber to the cab, then it splits into the VDSL signals to your phone line, so the bandwidth is only split at the cabinet, not at the fiber node like on VM which then runs on coax to the street cabs, which then splits again to the individual premises.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

The total capacity of a piece of coax or fibre has nothing to do with the maximum speed DOCSIS 3 can deliver to a single broadband subscriber.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

This service by BT FTTPoD is the highest speed up to 330/30 but look at the price below:

http://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home...2e9%2Bmw%3D%3D

Best move to nearer NGA Aggregation Node within 0m-199m

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Or just live at my old office raping the dual 10Gbps links for all they're worth.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

My point was the DOCSIS technology VM runs on isn't capable of the 5-6Gbps you state the cable can handle, so the cable would never push that speed over that tech in comparison to fiber and VDSL.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

From odds and ends I've seen I think the 21C WBC ADSL is different from the version I knew and hated too.

Incidentally I do know that PlusNet sometimes fail to update their internal profile in line with the BTw profile. Their forum frequently has requests to fix those problems and to their credit the forum techs do get it done but the frequency of those requests suggests the automation is a PoS especially considering the vast majority of customers wouldn't be sufficiently switched on to realise there was an issue.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

PlusNet sometimes fail to update their internal profile in line with the BTw profile is really annoying and pain in the arse. Why is all isp's got two profiling on both sides Bt and the Isp to match the profile correct. Rather daft.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

20 50Mbps channels can carry 1Gbps so it would need 120 to handle 6Gbps ignoring upstream. Moderate length coax runs could just about cope with that but it would certainly exclude all TV.

---------- Post added at 14:22 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

I'm guessing they may do it to avoid packet loss.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

You forget much of the cable's capacity is used by several hundred megabits, if not gigabits, of broadcast television. Which has nothing to do with DOCSIS.

Are you somehow of the opinion cable TV does not exist?

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

No of course I know that exists, but I was talking about the Internet delivery side of it.

That said, I don't tend to watch TV so whether it exists or not doesn't bother me :)

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

The capacity of the cable has very little to do with "the internet delivery side of it"

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Is that true that virgin media say to me that it will increase 152Meg this year but the upload remain at 12Meg. Virgin ain't interesting in upload increasing (only the download is priority to them) Yesterday, I downloading 117GB and the speed haven't reduced at all, it stay at 12.3MB/s max out transfer rate.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Hi horseman (Tony),

It has been a tough time in the last 18 months with Virgin Media. First of all there is the period where you are on the phones complaining about speeds and latency. Next I found myself on the forums raising issues. I find the staff more helpful on the forums and have even taken phone calls from Ralph from level 2 support in the past regarding the high utilisation. I had to wait 11 months for Virgin Media to claim they resolved the high utilisation! You must have seen them give me around 5 different dates for the capacity upgrades to lessen the high utilisation.
_
I spoke to CS on the phone back in September and they claimed that all the high utilisation on my segment had been resolved and there would be no further issues for some time. So I thought what the heck and upped my service to the 120mb package just for the sakes of wanting to try it. It did not take more than a month to see the old TBB graph starting to raise during peak hours and the "here we go again" sinking feel kick in once again.
_
Also back in September I noticed that part of the circuit in the area was split from LANC6 to LANC7 which made a huge impact on those customers TBB graphs which I monitor. Virgin Media claimed that no such resegmentation had been done in our area. I know for a fact that my sister who lives about 4 roads away from me (15 minutes walk) was shifted from LANC6 over to LANC7 yet Virgin still claimed all they did was capacity upgrades and no resegmentation from one uBR to another. I gave up even questioning that. After all who exactly would listen. They said nothing took place so I guess that was final. Would I sound rude saying that from my geographic research I found most employees of Virgin who live close by to me (I see the vans parked) appeared to be on the circuit which had been split. >> Just my own conspiracy theory.
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I truely am of the thought that something real crude is going on in my area in regards to Virgin Media! There is not enough cabinets on the streets and I can not see Virgin installing anymore. I also seen one of the regular green cabinets on the other circuit replaced with a larger grey box - Again on the other circuit. Mine appears to have been given the bare minimum.
_
I have complained on the phone, on the forums, the CEO office. I can't go on at them anymore! I just had to give up in the end. The latest call with the CEO office on Tuesday of this week with a chap called Ian and he said sorry about the on going issues and told me that they were hoping to get the issue resolved this September. Another 9 months.. arrrggghh!! And then he told me due to the history of the high utilisation he said there was every chance that this date could be pushed further back! - What am I not being told about the node/segment I am connected to? Something strange is going on for it to not be resolved in 18months and now a further 9 and still that may be pushed back. They clearly have more than enough custom where I live as the dear customer letters I get in the post claim to have 80% business in my road and near area. Is there a problem where they can not resolve the issues as they are cronic?
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I have tried hard to push them for fix dates but I can not make them spend money on the local network.
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BT Infinity went live back in December where I live so I was already of the thought of wanting to try it. Having been told on the VM forums that high utilisation was the cause of my recent issues (which I knew) just confirmed that I have to try FTTC. I just hope Openreach have done everyhing right in the area and that there will be enough capacity at street level and also at the exchange which is around 1 to 1half miles away from me. I have 2 FTTC cabinets within about 300-400 meters of my house so hopefully they are planning capacity at street level well in advance. I think another cabinet is soon to be installed within 100 meters north of my house also which will serve the other half of my road. so that will be 3 FTTC cabs within 300-400 meters from my house.
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I do feel it is a risk moving to another service but it is not as if I am moving from a great Virgin Media service so I feel I have to at least try another service. I stayed with Virgin Media and took montly credits in hope that one day I would look at the TBB monitor and see that my graph had gone red with a IP change and my connection shifted to LANC7. LANC6 has had so many issues in the last 18 months I barely paid a penny for the service as I made sure I complained at every issue I had. So I can not knock them for lack of credits or anything like that. I think Virgin were easy to get credits out of if you were happy to ride out the high utilisation. But now I would just rather have a decent service and not have to put up with there nonsense.
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I have no idea what FTTC will be like where I live nor do I know the quality of my phone line or the wiring. I will be speaking with the openreach chap when he comes out and will ask to go look in the FTTC cab and ask how many others are connected etc.. and just other questions in general. Just hope he is directly from openreach and not kelly communications as a contractor. I will complain if things are bodged or feel rushed.
_
Is for services - well currently I have Sky TV (prefer it) Virgin BB & Landline - Soon to be BT Infinity w/BT Sport added to sky for free and Landline if all goes well. Worse case would be BT Infinity being worse than my VM connection and me having to cancel the BT package and sitting back with VM taking credits and waiting for a high utilisation fix which feels it may never come.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Just be thankful if anybody shows up....

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Yes I really hope they do turn up or I will be complaining before I even have the service. I must say I have heard a few of these no show stories. :s

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

My mate had plusnet fttc but openreach engineer had failed to turn up twices as he booked a day off work twices as he wasn't happy at all. After third time no show and no fttc he cancelled the whole order with plusnet and went to sky instead. And he doing self-install and all went ok with 77Meg down and 19Meg up. Plusnet supplier are the worse ever to deal with openreach.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Self install still requires Openreach work on the cabinet.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Yes that right but not required at the customer property

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Hi guys, So what are the future plans for FTTC and speeds which are offered? Will Openreach be able to get more juice out of the current technology or would they have to reinvest in the cabinets with new hardware and such?

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

We already know BT can do 300Mbps/30Mbps over VDSL2 but I haven't heard of plans for higher. Plus, it's still reliant on line length too.

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

Thats not over VDSL, thats FTTP

Re: (Advice) Thinking of leaving Virgin Media 120mb for BT Infinity up to 76mb
 

FTTP is 330/20

FTTPoD is 330/30