Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

There seems to be a divided opinion between members as to whether he was an out and out terrorist who deserved to be locked up for life or a freedom fighter against apartheid .Personally i feel that the means justified the end .


Maybe a mod might want to move some posts from the RIP thread into this one

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Is this going to get a vote?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Hadn't planned on it ,i started this thread as a more appropriate one than the RIP thread to debate his legacy and the means by which it was achieved

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Fair enough.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Can I suggest a title change

Famous nice black man dies now give it a rest

Says rod Liddell

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/rod-lid...nto-overdrive/

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Ah, Rod Liddell - the Speccy's home-grown Glenn Beck.

Never knowingly not sensationalist......

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Guess that's a no then :D

Not a huge fan of rod myself but in this case he has a point imo

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Mandela was always going to be a huge story. His funeral will probably in the largest of it's kind since, what, Kennedy maybe? Or was Churchill's funeral after that?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Yes it's a huge story I get that but to relegate huge swathes of the east of England being washed away to barely a byline and how many more people are they going to wheel out that knew him, they've got to be running out soon considering he spent a quarter of his life locked up plus the way politicians are jostling to prove they knew him best/ miss him most is making me nauseous.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

can this thread be merged with the one from this summer? - where Kymmy elucidated some factual and enlightening views on the subject or is it the Orwell 1984 thing again

---------- Post added at 23:08 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

Churchill died in 1965 and I have a churchill crown still! it was the same Winston Churchill who ordered troops to fire live rounds into the miners in Llanelli if my memory serves me correctly (can't be arsed going into wikipedia this time of day) - so don't start on him being some kind of religious figure either - it was communism Churchill didn't like - the Nazis (National Socialism) were not an issue

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Mandela was a man that moved with and was happy to incorporate change when it suited him he was a terrorist as time and circumstances changed he recognised more could be done with words then by the gun. There is no definitive answer one way or the other he was equally comfortable being either as the times demanded. I'm also repressing the gag reflex with the political sideshow going on but what do we expect from professional plastic politicians sincerity has long been devoid from all of them.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Is that the thread where she said he prevented a bloodbath and possible civil war? That'd be the same Churchill who advocated using poison gas on troublesome natives and I think you'll find he did have a massive problem with national socialism long before it was fashionable (don't be fooled by the title either, the nazis were in no way socialist, they were it's ideological opposite). It doesn't really matter though the good both of them did vastly outweighs bad imo

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

"BOOM", and there you have the brutal truth. :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

Considering I started the negativity in the RIP thread guess I may as well post here too. Wouldn't want to upset the party line again by posting in the other thread!
My opinion.....
Nelson Mandela was the head of a terrorist organization before he was incarcerated, he may have never actually pulled the trigger but he ordered someone else to do the deed.
I neither like or dislike the man, I don't know him nor would I want to. But to honour someone who did what he did would and is in my opinion hypocritical.
As kymmy has said in the other post things are worse now for the poor, De Klerk started it the change, Mandela gets the praise.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I can recommend the film "Mandela, the long walk to freedom" it's brilliant, then you can make your own minds up.

It's released on January 3 2014

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

The only problem I have with these kind of biopics is that they tend to gloss over certain aspects to suit the agenda. Though I will be giving it a watch.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I guess the SA underclasses realised that with things like the Sharpeville Massacre, and being imprisoned for 3 years for organising strikes and another two years for leaving the country illegally(?), reasoned discussions with the ruling party were not going to make much progress.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

It's ok just saying he was the head of a terrorist group but black people where not allowed to protest even by peaceful means ,so violent measures where inevitable ,much the same as places like Syria .The big difference is that Mandela managed to keep the more violent protesters in check avoiding an all out civil war

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I will also point out that he had spent 27 years in prison for his crimes...So he didn't get off scot free.Surely anyone having served their time is allowed to change the direction of their life and beliefs?:shrug:

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

The man was a freedom fighter, he fought to end apartheid. The way black people were treated in SA was shocking and thats why he fought to get things changed.

In 1962 he was arrested, convicted of conspiracy to overthrow the government.

After his release he eventually became SAs FIRST black president. He spent his whole life trying to get the country to allow equal voting for black and white people.

That to me is a man who tried for years to change things and ultimatly acheived it.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Gerry Adams was all about overthrowing state power

but you don't hear them banging on about him


albeit he is still alive

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Generally speaking the difference is that the likes of Gerry Adams want a democratic decision taken by the majority overturned to benefit a minority

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Point of fact martyh, the partition of Ireland (which is what I assume you are referencing above) was not something that was a "democratic decision taken by the majority". It was, in fact, imposed via the Government of Ireland Act of 1920.

Under the terms of the Belfast / Good Friday Agreement, which Adams is a signatory to, any achievement of his stated objective of a united Ireland can only be brought about by peaceful / democratic means in line with the wishes of the majority.

That is a good thing.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Some context, from Stanford University

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

He though did not achieve it but instead was used to achieve it...

De Klerk was the one who changed the views of the nationalist party, he was the one who instigated the referendum (though whites only) that took the country into the post apartheid era and he was the one who thrust Mandela into the role as peace negotiator..

I agree greatly that no-one else could have done what Mandela achieved and that was to act as a buffer between the black majority and the white minority (shame the colored class (not the blacks as they were counted as a seperate class) at the time just sat on their backsides and waited until a victor emerged which turned out to be the people and not an individual group)

As for Mandela being a terrorist I wonder how many people involved in for example Manchester/docklands/Harrods and many other IRA bombings would still classify Gerry Adams and others as a terrorist. You had to live there in the late 70's/80's to realise the state of fear that gripped the public at that time.

Finally though I have to say that without Mandela there may have been bloodshed and a lot of violence in the early 90's and for that he has found his place in history and a lot of peoples hearts but what the news keeps hammering on about how he brought about the end of the apartheid era is just wrong..

Your still misunderstanding what I said, that is if your comments are aimed at me.
All I was doing was pointing out that his pre prison life wasn't all for the good of others and that part of his life was not lawful. Big at any point have I said otherwise, I just pointed out a fact and you jumped on that, maybe going back to bed and getting up again on the right side would benefit my statement that you took umbridge too.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Err I was just making an observation to all those posting in the thread.If I was to refer to what you said I would quote you.;)

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Terrorist.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I don't want to get into the ins and outs of NI but at the time the majority of the inhabitants of what would become NI where protestants and wanted to remain part of GB ,and the Government of Ireland act passed through Parliament in the democratic process of the time so it was generally speaking a democratic process and i suspect that the troubles where largely created by the differences in perception which you have just highlighted ,Gerry Adams and yourself being on the side that see the separation as being "imposed" by the government and the other side seeing the separation as the wishes of the majority

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

you've got to admit that they are going on at length about it!!! :mad:

only this morning


I waded through supplements in the hallway this morning

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Nelson Mandela's reply to this offer...

So he was unwilling to accept his own (very limited offer of) freedom, unless others had freedom as well - not sure how that makes him a terrorist?

btw, Botha personally ordered the bombing of the South African Council of Churches HQ in Jo'burg and the ANC offices in London - does that make him a terrorist?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

No taken out of context again out of desperation to condemn the man as a terrorist. He didn't want to accept the status quo, he didn't want to be released if the ANC and protests against the apartheid state were still banned. He wanted freedom for black people and rejected the offer that he would be freed at their expense.

What would you have had him and victims of apartheid do? When they were being killed for wanting the right to vote, for wanting to be equal to the white population? Just accept their ban and walk away?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Whatever part he played in getting rid of apartheid was a good thing. As a young naive lad in the 70s I visited Simonstown 3 times with the navy and to say I was shocked would have been an understatement. I just couldnt believe how they were treated but we were told not to say or do anything that could affect relations between Sa and the uk.
Because we were submariners, we got to stay in hotels instead of on board and there was one incident that I`ll never forget. The night before we were due to sail, we were all in the bar drinking (as usual) and everybody was putting all the leftover rands in the middle of the table, with the intentions of giving it all to the waiter. The manager, who was white, sussed out what we were doing and came over to the table and said that if we attempted to give any of the (his words) pigs anything, then they would be arrested.
So any part Mandela played in getting rid of that system deserves the credit thats been given.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

martyh, it is a fact and not a matter opinion, that the partition of Ireland was imposed on the population of the island by an Act drafted by the British Parliament. There was nothing "generally" democratic about how it came about or was imposed.

I suggest it would be useful if you were to read a bit more about the history of partition and the religious makeup of Ireland pre partition before posting on the matter any further. In doing so you will find that the imposition of partition isolated many thousands of protestants (7.6% of the overall population) and presbyterians living in the south of Ireland - many thousands who, I hasten to add, had no say whatsoever in the "generally" democratic process which you seem to think took place.

Additionally it's worthy of note in the context of this particular thread, that the Act of partitition was hastened because the predomninantly protestant UVF procured weapons from the Germans with which they threatened to wage a war - defacto a threat of terrorism.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I wonder if the white, colored and Indian/Asian classes would have been given the vote if the ANC/Freedom parties had forced the blacks into power in the 60's/70's?

It wasn't until the 90's that I believe that a true power sharing could have existed and worked the way it did with the right people on all sides. Though even in the 90's blacks expected a mass redistribution of wealth and the subjugation of the minorities which was being promised to them by unscrupulous ANC members in return for their votes. :(

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Well it was your link that said it passed through parliament so that makes it a democratic process whether you agree with or not .It may not have been perfect and it may not have suited everyone but it was still a democratic process ,exactly the same way as the Good Friday agreement is not perfect and does not suit everyone ,it was still a democratic process

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

terrorist whilst organising bombings then a freedom fighter when they won

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Admittedly the Good Friday / Belfast agreement isn't perfect nor does it suit everyone. However, as you say it was democratically (in the true sense) approved by voters throughout the entire island of Ireland - something denied the population as far as partition was concerned.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Great little story on the BBC about Mandela and how he was like a myth when in prison as photos of him were banned so no one knew what he looked like.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25256818

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Just about sums it up.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Interesting that you use the phrase "in the true sense" compared to my use of the phrase "democracy of the time" an important distinction i feel.I agree that the Good Friday agreement was the result of a more democratic process than the Partition act simply because back when the Partition act was being hashed out roughly half the adult population weren't deemed intelligent enough to vote (namely women)so in that respect there was i suppose an element of imposition .It's also interesting to note that during the same period the UK government where also building the foundations for Apartheid in SA.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I suppose you could say the same about the Americans in the 18th Century, the Indian revolutionaries in the 20th Century, the French Resistance during WW2, the State of Israel, the Bangladesh War in the 70s, El Salvador in the 80s, etc., etc.....

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Yeah I guess the reason they're not considered terrorists is because the cause they thought was just. Your impression of them probably depends on if you agree that they didn't have any other choice or not and if their goals were worthy. Most people now can see how unjust and barbaric apartheid was and that it needed to be stopped. Although it's worth remembering that Mandela didn't target civilians, only the apartheid state.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Since when has Jo'burgs main train station not been a civilian target? :rolleyes:

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

that wasn't Mandela (he was in jail at the time and had been for some time) it was Frederick john Harris a member of ARM,the only white person executed for crimes committed in the resistance against apartheid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_John_Harris

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I thought that was done by the African Resistance Movement? It's not one of the bombings that they tried Mandela under certainly as they could only charge him with sabotage.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

and?? the IRA have a good reason for war seeing as their country has been occupied for hundreds of years. The Afgan Taliban are living in an occupied country. Saddam was defending a country he still run at the start of the second war its all about perspective. I have no doubt in my mind that Mandela was responsible where by deed or order of the death of civilians that to me makes him a terrorist

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Yes but the ANC and Mandela are not synonymous. That's why his release and the way he tired, and mostly succeeded, in stopping the ANC from it's military campaign is one the reasons he is lauded.

Again though what do you think the ANC should have done after they were banned and forcefully stopped from protesting?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

he was head of the armed wing of the ANC.

Well Apartheid was the governing body they run the country rightly or wrongly is irrelevant. Any and all armed assaults on it were acts of terrorism.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

And a fine example of how things would most likely have turned out had Mandela not held them back

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

In most people's opinion. It's why he won the nobel peace prize, is admired around the world, and will have a massive state funeral later this month. It's credited it him by De Klerk who was the head of the Government at the time.

The rest of the world wasn't coming to help. People were being killed and their protests were getting banned and you condemn them for fighting back, you accuse Mandela, whose turn to violence didn't go as far as to call for civilians targets, of being a terrorist. How could they ratchet up pressure when they were a banned group? How they could fight back if they are not allowed to use violence? What were the black population of South Africa to do when their protests were met with violence, they weren't allowed to vote or speak out?

Yet somehow it is they who are the bad guy....

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Good point sir, and by "bizarre coincidence" look who was heavily involved in the drafting of the inauguration speech delivered on the day the Act was put into effect.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Yep.. my mistake as I was mainly going from memory...

One thing though to note is that Mandela has admitted to still being in a position on control of the MK whilst in prison which includes the time of the church st and Durban mall bombings. Although he was never charged with civilian bombings it doesn't mean that he wasn't guilty of being involved with later campaigns which killed many innocent people.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I think the rest of the world remembers Mandela's bombing campaign but judge it to have been acceptable in the context of the time in the same way no one really calls the French Resistance terrorists. I think if a people are being systematically oppressed, denied the right to vote, and even killed then it's hard to condemn them for taking up armed resistance in retaliation, especially in the case of Mandela who didn't target civilians. Finally I would point out, again, that his true legacy was after he was released from jail when he reigned in the ANC, helped broker the final peace deal with the underacknowledged F. W. de Klerk, became the first black President of South Africa, and didn't seek retribution or revenge on the white minority who had oppressed him for so long because he forgive them that.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Now that i didn't know ,and i believe Smuts had the same attitude towards blacks that Churchill had towards Indians .

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

the main difference is the Nazi's were an occupying force not the regular leaders of the country

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Does it matter if the people oppressing you are from abroad or at home? Same thing as far as you're concerned surely. If you were being denied the right to vote, you were on the wrong end of such brutal inequality, and when you spoke out you were banned? Others even killed? What would you do? :shrug:

Hugh's previous post contained this table:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/12/29.jpg

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I would be a terrorist but I would not pretend not to be one

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Regarding the last table please remember as I've stated a few times in this thread that not everything was black and white especially in terms of class and skin color.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

it brings up some interesting philosophical arguments over killings - e.g. whether killings are correct when sanctioned by 'the state' or just dreamed up by the individual

it reminded me of this book


I used to carry it about with me as I hitch-hiked around west Australia and up into south east Asia wearing a checked shirt and smoking a corn cob pipe - you'd find me loafing about on a fence post somewhere waiting for a ride to god knows where and pretending I was all deep and knew what I was doing (Christ what a ****** :mad:)



I only actually read it a couple of years ago - I just used to think it was a cool and trendy prop

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Well, that begs the question was Botha a terrorist when he authorised the bombing of the ANC offices in London?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

blowing random people up to make a political point is, in my opinion, just not cricket

for a start you might be blowing people up who agree with your view


and when they send letter bombs to people - you don't get the letter opened by - say - ted heath - or whoever - it will be a secretary or someone in the post room - and there are instances of this happening but typically do not make big news - but are obviously big news to the injured person and their family which in turn causes reciprocal aggro


so......interesting stuff

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

There is apparently such a thing as 'state-sponsored terrorism'. Was our bombing of Dresden a terrorist attack? Wasn't really needed, thousands of innocent people were killed.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

He was wise enough to realise that after the collapse of communism and the fall of the Berlin wall Apartheid should also be dismantled.It was unfortunate that it couldn't be achieved peacefully

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

seeing as it was not on his soil I also would say yes

---------- Post added at 19:43 ---------- Previous post was at 19:41 ----------

we were at war and did not brake the rules of war at the time and seeing the target was a major rail transport and communication centre it could be argued a legitimate target

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

there's loads of 'offices' in London

for people who are so keen on their country that they never seem to ever want to set foot in it (dole, health benefits...don't get me started!!!:mad:)




seems to me that the agro going on in their country is a cash cow for them




Dalai Lama for instance - if they said to him - look - here's tibet - we're sick of it - have it back - he'd go back there and be a nobody

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Just look at what history did to Richard III to see what happens when you lose

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

the Dambusters raids in Germany caused huge damage and massive civilian casualties and was the sort of Twin Towers attack of its day - and yet we build statues and make films about these heroic acts - "yes but" etc etc


so - once again - stuff to think about

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Apartheid would still have eventually been unsustainable. However it's fall would have been a lot bloodier and we could well have been horrific retaliations against the former ruling classes. Mandela is lionised not because the ANC won exactly but because he ensured a peaceful resolution to the end of Apartheid which is so small matter considering what had been done in it's name, including what had been done to him. He came out of prison and forgive those that put him in there, didn't speak vengeance, and persuaded others to do the same.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

It was a War that the Nazi's started with their attempt to take over Europe and control the oil with Japan and Italy in the East

---------- Post added at 19:58 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

it is funny that all the acts that were not peaceful are forgotten though

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

We're talking about them now. More than we're talking about what the apartheid regime did in fact.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

That is because this thread was started and I am grateful because I was holding off on posting anything about it anywhere. If you want to discuss the evils of apartheid why not start a thread about that maybe?

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

They aren't forgotten their justification may have been though

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I am scared this is twice now we have been on the same side ish lol

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Well there was the Sharpeville Massacre that I mentioned before and sparked the start of the ANC turning to violence:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharpeville_massacre

Other than that it wasn't uncommon for lesser killings to take place. Although they would tend to individual instances. This is an example:

http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/po...ment-1961-1989

Although it depends what you define as innocent. I define it as anyone who didn't take up violence but still were hit by violence, however most of them including the Sharpeville massacre involved people who were protesting which some on here might not class as innocent.

Botha was found to have ordered the bombing of a church too:

http://content.time.com/time/magazin...,11300,00.html

Besides I think we're all agreed apartheid was a horrific thing we're all glad to see the back of. Even without the violence it was a gross abuse of mankind.


No because apartheid is pretty central to this whole discussion. People are trying to strip the context from Mandela's bombing campaign because it's much worse that way. It's like that post earlier where someone posted that Mandela refused this offer to be released if he 'unconditionally' renounce violence and left out the part where it also involved him shutting up and stop challenging apartheid!

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

That was done during WWII. That can't really be compared to a terrorist act of such scale as the Twin Towers.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

It wasn't a terrorist act, war had been declared & Germany bombed London first. However, on a scale of destruction it was as devastating as the twin towers. Both incidents bore unacceptable losses. There are also many definitions of the word "Terrorist".

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Actually the first deliberate bombing of civilian urban areas was committed by us in Berlin and the blitz was the result and with hindsight lucky us, it kept us in the war. Make no mistake Dresden was a war crime, why else did it take so long to commemorate the bomber crews with a memorial, even bloody animals got one before they did and that's scandalous imo it wasn't their fault we were so desperate to impress the Russians and their sacrifice throughout the war should've been acknowledged sooner imo.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

You are quite right M8, I didn't mention the word deliberate! London was the first city hit by the Germans, albeit non intentional. I don't believe Dresden was a war crime, the Jerries razed Coventry. Dresden was blown to hell (burnt) by superior aircraft & sheer numbers, make no mistake, had Hitler possessed such power, he would have used it to destroy London.

The Bomber crews & various organisations were commemorated late, far too late in my opinion. Many people said Harris was wrong, but hindsight only helps future decisions, & this was, total war.

The Merchant navy, also played a massive role in WW2, were commemorated after Bomber command, again far too late, half the poor buggers were already dead. The Russians paid a terrible price, & its not well known either. I believe Germany got what it deserved, they also paid a terrible price, but I believe when you deliberately start killing civilians, your past the point of no return.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Some may have deserved it, most suffered and endured with no more guilt than anyone else, it's always been that way and apartheid.south Africa was no different really, the majority suffered on the ideology of a few.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

It was interesting watching the news programmes & documentary about Mandela, my wife commented how closely the film followed the facts

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...110100006.html

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2006...es.southafrica

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

South Africa's security services are in for a hard time:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...nelson-mandela

Re: RIP Nelson Mandela
 

Turns out the guy doing the sign language at the memorial was fake.
LOL

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...e-8997486.html

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Well as does The Telegraph:

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/pe...ndela-was-one/

I don't know the context of the BBC Interview but taking a question and making the editorial line of the BBC and the opinion of the interviewer is a bit unfair. He could have been referencing the previous comparisons.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Turns out the fake sign language guy is mentally ill and was suffering a schizophrenia attack at the time of signing.

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

Indeed ,and obviously the best place for someone having a schizophrenia episode is a stage full of world leaders :)

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

I know. can you imagine if he did anything to hurt Dave? :)

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist
 

you'd be gutted

Re: Nelson Mandela ,freedom fighter or terrorist