Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24801942

What the Hell. :( Are our civil servants fit for purpose? In private industry errors on this level would lead to disciplinary action.

We've had the fiasco over rail tenders going awry as the people drawing up contracts couldn't count properly. Now there is this.

The coalition may claim that they are inherited a flawed contract. But it was awarded 6 years ago, and as probably one of the largest deals ever you'd think both the previous and current government would have looked at it closely. Margaret Hodge (labour and a senior member of the last government) now wrings hands as chairwoman of the Public accounts committee and states there is commercial risk.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

IIRC the contract was filled with so many clauses and cancellation fees it was almost impossible to back out of it.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Indeed ,hammers cost a £1000 each don't ya know ;)

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The MoD does seem to have a particular problem with cost control. I'm not surprised to hear they're defeating even Philip Hammond, who has a fearsome bean-counting reputation.

Yes, the carrier contracts were drawn up in such a way as to make them almost impossible to cancel and this was undoubtedly a political calculation by Labour, which signed them off, but TBH for once I think they were right. Long term strategic planning is not something this country is very good at (look at how we're still wringing our hands over HS2) but the UK's wealth and power was built on global trade which in turn was safeguarded by a Royal Navy which really did rule the waves. Two carrier groups (assuming both are ever in service at the same time, which is unlikely) are not going to put us back at the top of the heap but a strong naval force will allow us to play our part in keeping the world peaceful, and therefore more prosperous.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

I don't disagree with the need for proper carrier facilities. But that the costs involved can't be controlled is something that those who entered into the contract should be ashamed of.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Please someone tell me what happens to the people who sign these contracts and oversee the repeated budgetary failures within the likes of the MOD. Likewise, what awful fate befell those who got the sums so badly wrong during the West Coast line debacle I wonder... :rolleyes:

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

You do remember Yes Minister?:erm:

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It would have been cheaper to retro fit the ones they just scrapped.

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The MoD has a history of buying crap for our forces, & spending billions extra on contracts. The MoD is a cash cow. Always has been.

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Oddly enough I've never seen a single episode of that for one reason or another, but I think I know what you're getting at. ;)

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

This contract to build these carriers was a complete disaster and typical of the MOD in matters like this. There is a complete disconnect between the frontline personel who are amongs if not the finest in the world and the administrative side that fails them every time. It is time cut's were made on the administrative side and not the frontline side because we have more desk warriors then active serrvice personelin our army it' s ridiculous. I remember speaking to IDF troops albeit many years ago and how they are setup so much more efficient then how we do things.

I think israel has less then 1500 people in it's appropreations department whilst we have nearly twenty thousand (might be a little out on figures as i'm remembering years ago) also they have a lot of former service people from the various branches whose input is welcomed and acted on in relation to equipment we do not. Well technically we do but at the end of the day they get ignored if the desk warrriors think they know better. Massive chunk of the defence budget is taken up by the admin side and the stupid decisions they continue to make day in day out.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Government contracts often do seem to be cash cows. For many of them there isn't any real competition and they just fleece the Government who don't seem to be aggressive enough with cost control. Look at the tagging scandal with G4S and Serco.....

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I wonder if these people are as cavalier with their own money as they are with ours...

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Well HMS Queen Elizabeth has finally arrived in Portsmouth.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-40936071

Quite a sight. Even more so when some aircraft are on the deck!...

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

A wonderful sight Osem but not exactly great in that it won't be fully operational until 2020 as if we had a major conflict tomorrow we would not have this great aircraft carrier at our disposal.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Indeed and over 900ft long!!

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They are worth every penny we spent building them. It makes a change to see money being spent of this country's protection instead of money being taken away.

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Methinks they did this a bit too soon:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...lacements.html

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

I suggest using the top deck for parking and recharging electric vehicles and the lower decks as a prison so that the taxpayer gets some payback before 2023 or when the carrier is first deployed ;)

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She will be commissioned next year and will receive her first operational deployment in 2020, by which time there will be about a dozen F35Bs on board. She is not, and will never be, an aircraft carrier without aircraft.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

The posted link suggested she wouldn't be fully operational until 2023. We may have all been zapped by then ;)

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It won't have a full complement of RN/RAF fixed-wing aircraft until then. It will, however, be operational in 2020, with a mix of RAF and USMC F-35Bs embarked, plus whichever UK military rotary aircraft are required.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

:tu:

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And, someone already landed a drone on it.. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/0...drone_landing/

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It's one hell of a Gin palace :)

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First ever war ship named after this present monarch. The other will be named HMS Prince of Wales.

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I will point out that she was built by 5 different BRITISH shipyards,will be maintained by Portsmouth Dockyard for the next 50 years and as a consequence has and will be providing much needed jobs in the area where I live and at the 5 previously mentioned shipyards. I rather think that us taxpayers will be getting our money's worth.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

While I agree with the sentiment, I'm not so sure that the country, as a whole, is getting anything like its 'money's worth'. Keeping people gainfully employed must surely be secondary to national defence, yes?

An aircraft carrier that has no aircraft is useless. That is the bottom line.

This isn't a party-political thing, more of a MOD 'no-clue' thing and is an issue that will not be addressed while the underlying reasons for the abysmal planning and execution of this build are buried beneath partisan politics.

We are all paying for this travesty, no matter what our political affiliation may be.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Absolutely spot on and to put it bluntly the MOD could not organise a piss up at a brewery to be perfectly frank.

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Well us locals in the area of Portsmouth feel differently. Oh and as for the MOD being inept try figuring in the roles of successive governments who are just as culpable in the cock up department when it comes to our armed forces.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

All the benefits that the ships' construction and operation have brought to the shipyards etc and will bring in the future could've been achieved without the vast waste of money due to the flawed decision making, political dithering etc. Surely that would have been a better outcome for everyone concerned, including the taxpayer. Of course there are many past and existing beneficiaries of the contract but the fact remains that much needed money which could have been used to fund other military schemes was wasted. The MOD is a government department so is bound to be subject to political point scoring policy changes etc. It's also subject to a great deal of influence from high level forces personnel who rarely seem to agree on such matters and have vested interests in terms of securing resources for their own services. The MOD has presided over far too many costly mistakes in the past and they never seem to learn. Our servicemen pay the price.

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Agree.However the MOD are subject to government decisions like every other department.

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You need to stop reading the whining left-wing Press. The aircraft carrier will have aircraft, both fixed and rotary-winged, on the day she needs them. There would be no point buying sufficient F-35Bs to station on board today. They come with big maintenance costs and for what? The ship isn't even commissioned yet, and even after it is it will take another year to 18 months to prove all her systems and her crew.

On the day that HMS Queen Elizabeth is fit to be deployed, she will have fighters and helicopters on board.

Re: Aircraft Carrier Costs Double
 

Here are some pictures courtesy of my younger brother of HMS Queen Elizabeth .

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And some more here.

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No they're not, I've worked for them in the past. They hide/fudge from the Treasury under the cover of 'national security'. By the time the real costs are known the project is usually past the point of no return. No other Govt. dept would get away with it.