Cable Forum - The other side of vigilantism

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Osem	29-10-2013 19:24

The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

A murder victim who was beaten and set on fire following rumours he was a paedophile was "failed" by officers, Bristol's police chief has admitted.

Bijan Ebrahimi's body was found in July in Brislington after he was reportedly harassed by residents who believed he had taken indecent images of children.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-24724534

The sad and ironic truth is that he was only taking pictures of youths who'd been vandalising his property to show to the police but he was arrested and questioned after claims were made that he was a paedophile.

Russ	29-10-2013 19:36

Re: The other side of vigilantism

When it comes to "peedos" (sic) and "nonces" some people get like the villagers in the witch scene on Monty Python's Holy Grail.

thenry

29-10-2013 19:39

Re: The other side of vigilantism

how did the allegations come about ?

Russ	29-10-2013 19:55

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638459)

When it comes to "peedos" (sic) and "nonces" some people get like the villagers in the witch scene on Monty Python's Holy Grail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g

Damien

29-10-2013 19:56

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638463)

how did the allegations come about ?

My impression was that it was someone with a grudge against him or just gossip.

Hugh	29-10-2013 20:40

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638463)

how did the allegations come about ?

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/articles/51...ile-rumour.htm

Quote:

Disabled gardener Bijan Ebrahimi, 44, was attacked after taking pictures of hooligans vandalising his hanging baskets at his home in Brislington, Bristol.

The images were to be handed over to police as evidence of anti-social behaviour by him. However police were contacted by somebody else on the council estate, who accused him of taking inappropriate pictures of children.

Officers then came to arrest Ebrahimi who was led away from his home in front of a baying mob chanting "paedo, paedo" at him, in July. Bungling officers were forced to release Ebrahimi when the reason for the images became clear.

As a result, Ebrahimi was wrongly tarred as a paedophile by rumours which spread in the local community. That led to him being beaten unconscious and then set alight, two days later.

thenry

29-10-2013 21:14

Re: The other side of vigilantism

****. I hope the liar(s) is/are named and shamed. Doubt it though with them most likely underage.

tizmeinnit

29-10-2013 22:26

Re: The other side of vigilantism

He was taking pictures of children he said it was to protect his property

Obviously the mob had little evidence to go on and should of course have made sure the claims had grounds or not . Tragic

Hugh	29-10-2013 22:43

Re: The other side of vigilantism

From the link in the OP's link

Quote:

The Post has been told that James, who admitted murder, warned at least one parent that Mr Ebrahimi had been taking photographs of children in the crescent.

Several men came from nearby streets with the intention of "dealing" with the allegations by threatening him, but refrained.

Sources have said that Mr Ebrahimi was only taking photos of the children he believed had, at James' instigation, damaged his flower beds.

A source said: "I think Mr Ebrahimi was trying to get evidence to give to the police and council."

---------- Post added at 21:43 ---------- Previous post was at 21:32 ----------

Interesting article in the Grauniad about vigilante Paedophile hunters - link

Russ	29-10-2013 22:49

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35638576)

Interesting article in the Grauniad about vigilante Paedophile hunters - link

Quote:

When approached by the Guardian to comment about his activities and Sam's claims, Stinson Hunter declined to comment.

Maybe they should have tricked him in to meeting them and bombarded him with questions. And filmed it of course.

thenry

29-10-2013 22:49

Re: The other side of vigilantism

thats not 'vigilante'. crazy.

Damien

29-10-2013 22:52

Re: The other side of vigilantism

What do we do about this issue though? Go after the false accusers with criminal charges? How can we stop it? Certainly the police should have done better here and some officers have been hit with serious misconduct charges and a IPCC investigation but maybe they need a more coherent plan for these cases from the suits above them? If someone makes a intentionally false accusation should we make them against the law as well?

thenry

29-10-2013 22:59

Re: The other side of vigilantism

These groups should have been trained and put into work alongside a head that monitors them. Was that on offer to them or were they the force and thats that ?

Osem	29-10-2013 23:19

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35638587)

I think the police have become, understandably, so concerned about failures related to abuse etc. that in this case maybe they let that concern cloud their judgement with tragic results. They're in a difficult position and have to prioritise but, in the real world, how do they do that whilst remaining open minded to all possibilities when the stakes are so high? The baying media doesn't help. Let's hope lessons are learned.

tizmeinnit

29-10-2013 23:29

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638583)

Maybe they should have tricked him in to meeting them and bombarded him with questions. And filmed it of course.

if they had done that then he would not have been innocent as he would have shown willing to groom and meet and underage person. So irrelevant to this story Russ nice try though

Russ	29-10-2013 23:36

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638593)

if they had done that then he would not have been innocent as he would have shown willing to groom and meet and underage person. So irrelevant to this story Russ nice try though

I don't think it's irrelevant at all, SH had never previously shown a willingness to allow people the right to silence. It's a bit rich that he insisted on it for himself.

Qtx	29-10-2013 23:38

Re: The other side of vigilantism

It didn't help that the police arrested the victim and kept him in overnight, only releasing him the next day which would have been noticed by the neighbours and fuelled the belief even more. You still have to be an evil thug to set fire to someone, even more so to do it to someone unconscious. This isn't just vigilantism, it's about one of two real nasty people victimising someone.

I can see why some go for the vigilante approach though. My sister witnessed a guy fiddling with himself while looking at the kids in a playground and came back to call the police while I went and followed him to an address nearby. He was picked up by the police, my sister gave a statement and said she was happy to go to court, which for some reason was in the middle of london, nowhere near the incident. A few more conversations with the police happened over time and it was let out that he had previous history for the same thing. My sister turned up to the court day only to hear that the coppers who were supposed to go along were on holiday so the case was dismissed. There was no point in all that hassle, should have just smacked him one when I had the chance. Next time....

thenry

29-10-2013 23:41

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

only to hear that the coppers who were supposed to go along were on holiday so the case was dismissed

that cant be true surely Qtx

Russ	29-10-2013 23:43

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35638597)

I can see why some go for the vigilante approach though.

I don't think anyone is against it in principle, it's just in practise it's uncontrolled and unrestricted mob justice by poorly-trained, bloody-minded self-appointed 'experts'.

tizmeinnit

29-10-2013 23:43

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638596)

I don't think it's irrelevant at all, SH had never previously shown a willingness to allow people the right to silence. It's a bit rich that he insisted on it for himself.

Ok so one guy taking photos of youths vandalising plant pots is just the same as showing a willingness to groom underage children and then turn up expecting sex. Yes very similar I do not think. But if you do Russ that is upto you :)

Russ	29-10-2013 23:49

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638601)

No idea what you're bipping on about this time, I've not mentioned any of that, let me make it easy for you.

SH never affords any of the guys he goes after the right to silence.

The writer of that article asks SH for a quote, SH declines to comment.

Double standards.

tizmeinnit

29-10-2013 23:51

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638604)

but the cases are totally different there is no relevance between this tragedy and what SH does

can not find a relevant definition of bipping either

thenry

29-10-2013 23:52

Re: The other side of vigilantism

get some rest tiz

Russ	29-10-2013 23:55

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638605)

but the cases are totally different there is no relevance between this tragedy and what SH does

Oh dear Lord... :banghead:

---------- Post added at 23:55 ---------- Previous post was at 23:54 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638606)

get some rest tiz

...please....

tizmeinnit

29-10-2013 23:59

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638606)

get some rest tiz

why? are you saying the point I am making is inaccurate? do you find this case the same ?

---------- Post added at 22:59 ---------- Previous post was at 22:59 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638607)

Oh dear Lord... :banghead:

---------- Post added at 23:55 ---------- Previous post was at 23:54 ----------

...please....

he wont help you Russ

thenry

30-10-2013 00:16

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638609)

why? are you saying the point I am making is inaccurate? do you find this case the same ?

Russ from what I gather is talking of caution. This guy was a vulnerable loner, in the OP. That against a bunch a chavs ? good luck. Who is this guy who took it upon himself to take charge not giving the guy a chance to clear himself ? Do you think the guy was just knocked out and set alight or was he highly likely to had been taunted before so? He wasn't given a right to a voice infront of those who were ready to 'deal with him' just like those put on camera were not given a voice. This is ofcourse is me speaking after reading the links in this thread.

tizmeinnit

30-10-2013 00:26

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638622)

Yeah I see all that but Russ bought Stinson Hunter into it I know the article used them as examples but the guy who was murdered had no real evidence against him. Both SH and LGH had video evidence proving their alleged nonces had turned up after attempted grooming so the cases are totally different :)

thenry

30-10-2013 00:29

Re: The other side of vigilantism

but it also says Stinson Hunter acted to quickly on some cases. The majority. I'm not taking anything away from the actual catches, well done to them for that.

Qtx	30-10-2013 00:33

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638599)

that cant be true surely Qtx

Unfortunately it is. Couldn't believe it myself.

tizmeinnit

30-10-2013 00:35

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35638597)

that guy deserved a pasting but the paster would be the one ended up inside.

Qtx	30-10-2013 00:36

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638600)

I don't think anyone is against it in principle, it's just in practise it's uncontrolled and unrestricted mob justice by poorly-trained, bloody-minded self-appointed 'experts'.

In general it is thugs who want to dish out the vigilante punishment and in general thugs are not the brightest of people. Maybe an over generalisation and of course will be lots of exceptions but will fit a majority of the cases.

It is a grey area which can only be measured on a case by case basis.

thenry

30-10-2013 00:38

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qtx (Post 35638629)

Unfortunately it is. Couldn't believe it myself.

Did you ask/push for answers as to why that happened and if anyone would be held accountable, taken out of a job that cares for the public. Pee'ing off on holiday is beyond belief.

Qtx	30-10-2013 00:47

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638630)

that guy deserved a pasting but the paster would be the one ended up inside.

That is the reason why my sister called the police and asked me not to touch him. If I had known beforehand that he was going to get away scot free, I would have taken that risk.

---------- Post added at 23:47 ---------- Previous post was at 23:41 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638632)

Did you ask/push for answers as to why that happened and if anyone would be held accountable, taken out of a job that cares for the public. Pee'ing off on holiday is beyond belief.

A policewoman travelled up to the court in London with my sister although she wasn't one of the arresting officers, not sure if it was moral support or protection (or both). She said she would look in to what went wrong but heard no more from her.My sister made some complaints to the police station, was told someone would get back to her and she heard no more again. She didn't chase it any more as she just felt the police were totally useless after her dealings with them.

thenry

30-10-2013 01:30

Re: The other side of vigilantism

The IPCC? Your local MP? If the Police aren't showing any interest then theres got to be a reason either way.

richard s

30-10-2013 10:02

Re: The other side of vigilantism

So he was murdered... have the culprits been caught yet.

Osem	30-10-2013 10:12

Re: The other side of vigilantism

IMHO vigilantism starts with people who believe they're right and inevitably results in the goalposts of guilt and punishment being moved when it suits and tragedies like this. Justice should never be in the hands of people who aren't capable of delivering it.

Derek

30-10-2013 10:48

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by thenry (Post 35638632)

Did you ask/push for answers as to why that happened and if anyone would be held accountable, taken out of a job that cares for the public. Pee'ing off on holiday is beyond belief.

Occasionally Police officers are allowed to go on holiday you know.

What's likely to have happened is the reporting officer, who I assume is the one that didn't turn up, will have included in the case the dates he/she was unavailable. The prosecuter will have received the file, ignored the part with unavailabiluty and scheduled a court date regardless. They might even have scheduled a date and never bothered to cite the witness regardless of leave periods.

The RO will then be off on holiday unaware they are due in court and when the case is called it get binned due to lack of essential witnesses (it's rarer now to get a postponement than a few years back)

That's what happens in Scotland anyway, England should be pretty much the same.

Of course the RO could have just not bothered in which case they'll probably be answering some very uncomfortable questions from professional standards right now.

Anyway in this case it's tragic but the Police are caught in the middle. They have an apparently credible complaint about a male taking pictures of children and have to follow it up. After it was found the pictures were innocent all the proclamations of his innocence wouldn't have made the slightest bit of difference to some who had him as a target the minute the camera came out.

martyh

30-10-2013 12:29

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638574)

He was taking pictures of children he said it was to protect his property

Obviously the mob had little evidence to go on and should of course have made sure the claims had grounds or not . Tragic

You make it sound like the mob where ok to attack the man as long the claims where correct .The mob should do nothing at all, ever ,your pal Stinson Hunter has found that out the hard way ,he now admits that he never thought about the repercussions

Osem	30-10-2013 12:35

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35638699)

You make it sound like the mob where ok to attack the man as long the claims where correct .The mob should do nothing at all, ever ,your pal Stinson Hunter has found that out the hard way ,he now admits that he never thought about the repercussions

Why doesn't that surprise me? :shrug:

Russ	30-10-2013 12:43

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35638702)

Why doesn't that surprise me? :shrug:

Same here. And people still persist in defending him.

martyh

30-10-2013 12:46

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35638702)

Why doesn't that surprise me? :shrug:

indeed ,shame it took someone outed by a *rival hunter gang* to hang himself

* there seems to be some sort of competition or rivalry between the various gangs now with groups threatening to reveal the identities of leaders ,i also think they are competing to see who can out the most peodos which is extremely dangerous

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...entity-6142934

Russ	30-10-2013 12:51

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35638706)

lol you couldn't make this up.

Hugh	30-10-2013 13:33

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Here's another one...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aedophile.html

Quote:

'I jumped on his head myself!'

Pregnant woman is jailed for organising gang beating of innocent man who was wrongly named as a paedophile on vigilante website.

tizmeinnit

30-10-2013 13:58

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35638699)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35638702)

Why doesn't that surprise me? :shrug:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35638705)

Same here. And people still persist in defending him.

this was all to do with the guy who topped himself which was incidentally not a Stinson Hunter perp.

I will continue to defend him

The old bill need to be seen to be doing something. QTX pointed out a guy who got off because of either an old bill or cps mix up. Is it any wonder people feel the need to take the law into their own hands?

I know for one if anyone ever messed with my daughter as a child or now as she is grown up and they got off I would be more than happy to serve time and deal with it myself

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35638721)

Here's another one...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aedophile.html

that was a fraudulent website deliberately accusing innocent people and demanding money for their names to be removed

Osem	30-10-2013 14:04

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35638721)

Here's another one...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...aedophile.html

They're as bad as the people they claim to be protecting society from.

---------- Post added at 13:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:02 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35638706)

and there was I thinking this was all about groups of decent, fair minded people acting in the common good to bring wrongdoers to justice... :rolleyes:

martyh

30-10-2013 14:13

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638728)

this was all to do with the guy who topped himself which was incidentally not a Stinson Hunter perp.

I will continue to defend him

The old bill need to be seen to be doing something. QTX pointed out a guy who got off because of either an old bill or cps mix up. Is it any wonder people feel the need to take the law into their own hands?

I know for one if anyone ever messed with my daughter as a child or now as she is grown up and they got off I would be more than happy to serve time and deal with it myself

big difference between that and organised vigilantism ,both ways are wrong as i found out a few years ago

Hugh	30-10-2013 14:34

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35638728)

this was all to do with the guy who topped himself which was incidentally not a Stinson Hunter perp.

I will continue to defend him

The old bill need to be seen to be doing something. QTX pointed out a guy who got off because of either an old bill or cps mix up. Is it any wonder people feel the need to take the law into their own hands?

I know for one if anyone ever messed with my daughter as a child or now as she is grown up and they got off I would be more than happy to serve time and deal with it myself

---------- Post added at 12:58 ---------- Previous post was at 12:56 ----------

that was a fraudulent website deliberately accusing innocent people and demanding money for their names to be removed

More than he defends himself, it would seem.

From the Guardian link I posted yesterday evening in this thread.

Quote:

Stinson Hunter has even admitted as much. "Guys that I catch generally aren't paedophiles," he told supporters in an online broadcast in August. "A massive percent of them are guys that have been lonely and someone has paid them attention and they've jumped on it."

Also in that article, a different viewpoint on one of Mr Hunter's 'stings'.

Quote:

Sam's story began when he was talking to a person on the dating site Badoo. After a while someone told him she was 11 and asked if it put him off. He said it did but he didn't mind chatting from time to time.

"I knew she wasn't an 11-year-old because she sounded so mature and when her picture was up I said to her that's a picture of a 17- or 18-year-old, I think I am being fooled here. She said no, I'm 11." Later they had an adult exchange in which she asked about sex. "I discussed slowly what happens," he said. "After, I said: 'I don't think you are 11.' An 11-year-old would not respond to me in this nature."

Soon, "she" asked to come and meet him. He made excuses to avoid it, but shortly afterwards, Stinson posted Sam's picture and number online and accused him of grooming. Hate messages poured in. "Kill threats, you're a paedo, you're this you're that," he said. "I was panicking, I couldn't eat." Sam went to the police and said he had been talking to someone he didn't believe was a child.

Then Stinson called. "He said if you think you are not a vile person, come and see us and we'll have a chat with you and leave it at that," Sam said. Stinson gave him a contact at Nuneaton police station who he said had previously handled his cases. According to Sam, the officer told him not to go because of the risk that a film shaming him would be broadcast. But it seemed a chance to clear his name and he went.

"Straight away the camera was on my face," he said. "There were about four people in there. Straight away all the bad questions. I just started crying thinking what the hell have we come into. He has made the nation believe that me and my friend had actually come to meet the 11-year-old."

Detective Inspector Chris Hanson, of the West Midlands police public protection unit, said Stinson's video sting on Sam had been thoroughly investigated by specialist child abuse investigation officers who also made their own extensive inquiries and found no evidence of any sexual offences. But Sam said that came too late to prevent social workers asking him to move away from his children temporarily and his life being threatened by strangers.

Osem	30-10-2013 14:58

Re: The other side of vigilantism

:tu:

Quote:

But Sam said that came too late to prevent social workers asking him to move away from his children temporarily and his life being threatened by strangers.

Never mind that eh? Acceptable 'collateral damage'... :rolleyes:

tizmeinnit

30-10-2013 15:01

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35638744)

More than he defends himself, it would seem.

From the Guardian link I posted yesterday evening in this thread.

Also in that article, a different viewpoint on one of Mr Hunter's 'stings'.

Fair do's I will try and contact Stinson for his side to that. If it is the case that Stinson has been pulling the wool over our eyes then I will re think my position on this matter.

I would still like to see more evidence of police action in this field

Hugh	30-10-2013 19:25

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Interesting story in the Coventry Telegraph

Quote:

A Coventry man accused of trying to meet a 15-year-old girl after allegedly grooming her over the internet has had the case against him thrown out.
A judge at Coventry Crown Court has ruled that it was impossible for the 33-year-old man to have a fair trial.....

....Recorder Patrick Upward QC questioned how it could proceed when, as he had heard, ‘three of the parties to the entrapment’ had refused to give evidence and in view of comments made by a police officer in the case.

And following an adjournment for him to consider the submissions and legal arguments, he said he was satisfied the Crown and the police had ‘acted appropriately.’

“However, the evidential gaps are such that it is impossible for the defendant to have a fair trial,” he ruled.

Recorder Upward said he was therefore dismissing the case against the defendant/

Russ	30-10-2013 20:13

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35638871)

Interesting story in the Coventry Telegraph

'nuff said.

Qtx	30-10-2013 21:59

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Entrapping someone with the lure of a 15 year old is a bit close to the line. I bet there are tons of people on the board that could be classed as pedo's simply because their sex life started around the age of 15 or 16. Sleep with someone aged 15 years and 11 months old and you will go to prison, be on the sex offenders list, be called a paedophile and hated as **** of the earth. Sleep with the person 1 month later and it's all legal and fine.

Russ	05-11-2013 16:11

Re: The other side of vigilantism

This is what SH should have been doing. The right way to do it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24818769

thenry

05-12-2014 14:40

Re: The other side of vigilantism

Quote:

Three police officers have been charged in connection with the death of a man whose vigilante killer wrongly believed he was a paedophile.

http://news.sky.com/story/1386334/co...mix-up-killing

well done

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