Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi all , im new to the site , had my telephone interview with Hays for Kellys last week , pasted that, now ive got my 11 day training at Dudley West Midlands, can anyone tell me more about the traing day and what its like to work for Kellys, Ive heard a load of bad things so looking for some good points lol, :)

Cheers.....

Re: Kelly`s BT Openreach Engineers
 

the bad things about kellys are mostly a few years whilst on vm contract.Ive just finished the course with kellys and they teach you well.i am now doing a week buddied up with someone.its a bit daunting going up the poles but you are completely safe.

Re: Kelly`s BT Openreach Engineers
 

I should be alright with the poles , ive been doing aerials and satellite for the last 10 years lol, whats involved in the first weeks training apart from the pole work ?...
do you get payed £40 per day training? :)

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I joined Kelly's a few weeks ago, Got trained near Coventry by a company called PQMS. Lots of building work going on. You get put up in a hotel and share a room with a stranger! I have to travel 60 odd miles to get to the first job. I thought it was going to be local. You are not fully insured on fault accidents to your van. First £1000 is paid by you. You can be sued by the general public/local authority so get public liability insurance. You are classified as self employed but pay tax upfront to be claimed back via a tax return. The umbrella company take £12 a week for the privilege of paying you. You are expected to do 5 jobs a day at £25 per completion. OK if they were pre-wired which hasn't been the case for the most this week. You wait a long time on the phone for a tone or another e side. Your jobs get audited by BT and if a fault (untidy wiring, green cabinet not cleaned out, no 'I was here' label on pole etc) is found in your work you loose the £25.

if you leave within a year you get your pay docked by £500. There is no holiday pay as you are self employed. Apart from that your van is outside your house and you use a fuel card but careful not to put the super diesel in as you will pay for it yourself.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

( Your jobs get audited by BT and if a fault (untidy wiring, green cabinet not cleaned out, no 'I was here' label on pole etc) is found in your work you loose the £25).
makes sure you do job properly though dosnt it
(You get put up in a hotel and share a room with a stranger! I have to travel 60 odd miles to get to the first job. I thought it was going to be local.)
try gettin a job with quinns where you have to pay your own hotel upfront.And try and even get a job these days

---------- Post added at 20:07 ---------- Previous post was at 20:04 ----------

you get £60 a day for training mate.and believe me ladder work and pole work are completely different

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Its Me: Is your course on the 15th April?

---------- Post added at 11:09 ---------- Previous post was at 11:04 ----------

Stabilo: I've been put on the training course for the 15th April, is there a 'shadowing week/weeks' or is it a case of...there's your van, off you go? Alot of the other posts I've seen are from people who got laid off by Kelly's so naturally they are going to portray a bad image for them, just wondering if you could give me an idea of how many jobs you do in a day ect and what the management is like?
Cheers
Andy

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi Andy,

If you had no previous experience as a overhead installer (ie going up poles) you get buddied up for at least a week. You get a smart phone you use to get your jobs off. In order to get the completion recorded you need to do an Eclipse Test at the customers premise. I did my first drop wire with my buddy I think it should be priced up accordingly but its still only £25. Today was a bad morning (no jobs completed because of
bad routing/ no e side) the afternoon completed 2 with no problems and that was with an experienced engineer. In theory you can do 6 jobs a day if you are lucky. We haven't hit that lucky day yet! Your day starts around 6ish when you receive you jobs for the day on your phone and as I said before you may have to travel 60 odd miles to get there for 8. Its not the easiest way to make a living but every day is different and if you like people and doing a service type job it can be quite rewarding (mentally that is).

Apparently at Quinns they give you £60 a night for accommodation and food just to reply to Scubaboys comments.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

That's brilliant mate thank you, I'll be getting buddied up then i guess as i have no overhead cabling experience. What does the 2 week course cover? Is it designed for complete beginners or is it expected that those there have some idea what they are doing?

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

12 day course (saturdays included). First 4 days is with Kelly. going over Admin and H & S. Remainder with the training engineers and one day doing your New Road Street Works Act training. No previous experience required.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Oh right fair enough. Where about's are you working in the country? I'm looking forward to it...like you say not the easiest way to make a living but until my numbers come up in the lottery I'm happy with that!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Lets say I'm south of Birmingham

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Yeah with Quinn's you have to pay for it first but with Kelly's they pay for the hotel upfront.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

hi all

i wouldnt mind getting into this my self in the yorkshire area. any ideas how i would go about it???

thanks

craig

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Craig, I'm at the stage I am now through a company called Hays who gave me a call asking if I would be interested. However if you wanted to join someone like Kelly then I seem to recall them advertising on their website:
http://www.kelly.co.uk/careers/view-roles

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

i dont really want to be working for a agency,
i suppose i could ring them and find out what the crack is

your based in the midlands arnt u andy?? im wanting yorkshire work

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

dico you wanna ring a guy called anthony jones at tss soloutions.www.tssrecruit.com they recruit for telent in the yorkshire area

---------- Post added at 19:29 ---------- Previous post was at 19:29 ----------

on behalf of openreach

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

i no experiance or anything just fancy a change in direction

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I still remember my interview, and the day I joined British Telecom and became a BT Engineer. A terrific ‘Champagne’ moment. 25 years ago I was so proud to have been accepted and be part of something so exciting. No other job would be like it, it was the dawn of a fantastic journey!

BT Engineer – My first day

On my first day of work, I was taken to a BT Telephone Exchange in Rayleigh Essex – my hometown. The sheer amount of relays and ‘a spaghetti’ of wiring on a proportion i’ve never seen, left me standing in awe. I was to be trained to work and understand what my mind at that moment struggled to comprehend. Given that I had always been so interested in electronics, my eyes were ‘like saucers’! Colleagues treated each other with respect, there was a ‘happy family’ feeling to the whole thing. You all knew your role, you were all team players.

BT Engineer – I loved my job, and my customers.

Every time I fixed someone’s telephone line, or installed an extra socket and saw the job through from start to finish, I got a huge sense of satisfaction. There, at the end of a BT Engineer visit, was a satisfied happy customer. I helped elderly and hard of hearing people understand their BT telephone and get more out of it. Just programming the numbers in and demonstrating an amplifying handset, simply having the time to spend an extra 15 minutes to go that extra mile was very rewarding all round. I got to work in very interesting and diverse places.

and im trying to get back with kellys any help would be great

Arthur davis

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi Arthur, You need to contact Hays recruitment Singh, Ranjit [Ranjit.Singh@hays.com]

Job Description follows:-

• Working hours are 8.00am until the job is finished Monday – Friday with plenty of Saturday work available
• Employees are paid on piecework rather than a salary on the following:

£25.00 for each job completed
£10.00 for each ‘intervention’ or partial job completed (i.e.you cannot fix the problem but have gone as far as they can but another person needs to finish the Job)
• There is a bonus scheme in place that has just been started and will be comm'd at Induction around productivity
• Engineers are allocated approx 5.5 jobs per day so potential earnings if they complete all the jobs and work Saturdays is - £750 per week (5.5jobs *6 days *£25). Some days will be busier and some days will be quieter
• Engineers get a fuel card for their company van that they can take home and are not yard based. They are for company use only as only the Engineers are insured whilst in the van and all vans have tracking devices
• Engineers are provided with PPE at no expense to the Engineer.
• Perm role
• Self employed basis


Good luck

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi All,

I thought I would tell how it is with me working for Kelly Comm on Openreach.

I've been on the Openreach project for almost 2 years having left VM. To be honest its been tough with long hours and having to put up the the Kelly management who can be b@stards if you cross them. There is very little help if you have any pay issues and you have to keep nagging to get any problems sorted.

On the plus side its Monday to Friday you get uniform a van fuel card and all the tools and required. When you learn your job you can complete upto 7 jobs a day at £25 each so its good money, I earned just over £32,000 for the last financial year, but when I started I was taken on the books and that includes holiday pay. I think most engineers will earn £ 28,000 to £30,000 pa without breaking a sweat.

So to sum it up keep your nose clean, do the work correctly, dont give your manager too much crap and you will be ok.

Oh and a bit of advice stay away from manageral jobs as you'll have your job description and wages change all the time, you're better off and an engineer and its probably more money.

Good luck.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Avoid Kelly's without fail.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Yep i agree avoid Kellys at all costs.
They will almost certainly take advantage of you. The only way you can earn any sort of proper money is by being a relation or friend of a Kellys manager. Whom by the way, no absolutely dick about the Openreach network. These people are not what you call proper managers. They have migrated from Virgin, Door knocking or prison.
You have been warned. If you fancy mugging yourself off, then go for it.
By the time you realise its a pile of pants, you will leave and they will take £500 of your wages
as a penalty if you go within 12months of starting as do 99% of people.
You'd be better off stacking shelves in a supermarket or working at McDs, i'm not joking!!

---------- Post added at 23:14 ---------- Previous post was at 23:02 ----------

By the way posts claiming to be Engineers earning this and that will be managers or their cohorts. Transparant as feck:td:

I only joined Kellys in a quiet spell for me workwise, bailed out after a couple of weeks, learnt all i needed to know about this inept bunch of pikeys.
Now thankfully back on track with a good employer. Earning far more than any of those Kelly fkwit managers, as i have plenty of skills :)

Dont waste your time and efforts with these people (top tip)

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

To anyone offered a job with Kellys, I'd say don't let other people's opinions put you off taking a job, especially in this economy. Like one guy said, if these guys were out until 8pm and doing 12 hour days dying on their arses, then there's a problem here. Simple fact is: these engineers couldn't cut it. I'm sorry, but the BT contract is a dream compared to AVC or Fujitsu. I've worked for the latter and that was! a nightmare. 9 or 10 multi room installs a day- TV, BB, and Telco for about 12 quid per job. Then you have to activate the boxes and cards, demo the service, connect the customer's computer to the hub, and on and on.... a total fecking nightmare. I've literally seen engineers with tears in thier eyes when they get thier job sheet for the day.

With BT It's just a single phone line for £25, and you don't even have to touch the modem or mess about with the customer's PC or laptop. So If you can't handle 4 or 5 Telco installs per day with relative ease, then you're in the wrong game. I've worked for Kellys since October, and even though they do mercilessly throw you out there on day one, once you start using your head and refining your self to become self sufficient, you can earn good money working short hours. If I'm not on my way home around 4pm then I've had a really bad day. But some techs just want thier hands held, so they quit when they run in to problems, instead of using initiative.

Typical example: They spend hours at a cab, because the e side isn't there. They waste half a day calling BT coaches because they arn't answering thier phones waiting for a tone to be sent, but never learnt you can put them on your self with a little inside info. Or they waste an hour trying to find a cab, but never think to pester a manager for a cab location pdf file that you can load up on your work phone and have instant cab locations on the fly. Just a couple of examples, but It's stuff like this that really eats into your day.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi guys

Simple question

Who is better to work for MJ Quinn or kellys this is for BT openreach jobs

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi,

Same question ...
I have been offered a training course by kelly's and MJ Quinn for next week and am really undecided on which company to go for.

I have 13 years experience with BT as a linesman, so I know the ropes, but have been out of the loop for 7years or so.

I have been unemployed for 3 months so after reading all the bad comments I really have no choice but to give them a try... but the question is which one!!

Any comments appreciated.

Sean

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Just started today at PQMS, they no longer do the buddy system "Kelly's don't believe in it".
A bit worrying when the instructional part of the course is only 9 days and you're in someone's house the next Monday with a drill.
😁

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I know where you're coming from mate, it's just dumb sending people out on the network after a few days of ropey training. It wasn't too bad for me as I'd had telco experience on the virgin network, but even that is no where near as hard as the bt one. All i can advise is that on your first day you tactfully but firmly say you want a few days shadowing a experienced tech even if you won't be earning any money, and when you get that chance watch very carefully, don't be shy to take notes. Like I said in my previous post, the people who will have the short easy days are the ones who prepare the best. To be honest I went for the Kelly gig as a means to get experience on the BT network as my long term goal is getting in with Openreach direct. It's kinda going to plan as I'm waiting for my interview date for Openreach. Bu give it a go and good luck.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi guys

I've just been given my training course dates with PQMS for next monday. I managed to get the job through Capital Outsourcing with Kelly's but just wanted some feedback how things are through these guys - I'm a bit confused as to the rates as I've been given different job rates from what's been mentioned here.

£23.00 for copper line work (4 a day they say)
£13.20 for Residential installs.(8 a day)

Also they quoted £30 per day for the course. What's quite annoying is I have to get to coventry the day before as the course start time is 07:30 and they don't cover that night in the hotel (although all other nights B&B are paid, but not evening meals)

ExGunnerXIX - sounds like you have just been through the course - how was it?

Regards
DT

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

£23! I hope they haven't changed things on the sly... I am (was?) getting £25 per install. I don't mean to be funny, but I hope this rate is for new guys only. Thought I won't hold my breath as Kelly haven't got the best rep for being %100 upfront when it comes to money - not to say they are total rip offs though.

Note: its not £13,20 for "residential" installs, that's for "fully managed" installs - meaning phone line already active, and you're just there to set up the modem and connect it to the customer PC or Laptop - no outside wiring required. You get the bigger bucks for copper whether its a residential or business install - it doesn't matter.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi guys,

Im in exactly the same position and have the same info as dumb terminal. Im trying to decide whether to persue this or not. Will you always be garunteed work? And how often is it not 'local'? I have a technical background but no experience in this feild what so ever. Is it realistic that I will meet the quota that Kellys expect?

What about replacement tools? Would I be expected to pay for them?

Any info would be much appreciated!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Everyone looking for jobs with Kelly's or Quinns, why not look apply for jobs with Openreach themselves? It's way better!

More interesting, less stress and better paid.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I get you mate, but (if you're not already employed by them...) have you tried to apply for Openreach direct recently? If you haven't just left the armed forces or have no contacts, then I'd say joining MI5 is probably easier. If you can find a single link for a direct/in-house role on the net feel free to let others know. I'm waiting on my Openreach interview date but I had to make contacts at Kellys first in order to obtain the email address to send my CV to.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

A couple of months ago there were hundreds of jobs on bt4me.co.uk

There's still some apprenticeships listed on the site right now.

Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I have been offered a training place with Kelly's/BT Openreach as a Trainee Telecommunications Engineer, I'm not sure if I should take up the offer of training. I'm no longer young, (57) residential installations, broadband, would not be a problem, my concern is installing overhead lines, and climbing telephone poles, long hours, 9.5 per day, all the traveling ending up feeling fatigue . Is there any option of just residential installations/broadband work only.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Hi guys, I was asked to go on the induction course in Coventry next Monday but told them not enough notice so am going on the one starting Monday 16th. being done through capita resourcing, would be grateful for any information that anyone can give me regarding what to expect.

Thanks and regards in advance
John

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Well essentially you'll have 3 days of HR/admin- lots of paperwork signing your name, before even seeing any telecoms stuff.
You then are trained for 9 days by PQMS who are excellent instructors but teaching a ridiculous amount of information in a poor learning environment. Too many students (at first anyway-a few will drop out) in a pokey classroom and shitloads of noise from people on the same course but a week ahead of you who have quickly forgotten how feckin annoying it is when you're concentrating for ten blokes to start singing outside your classroom.

The instructors also will work you until 8-9 pm a few nights so you (they) can have a sunday off. Honestly though, if they started at 0800 like they said there wouldn't be any need but they never start until 0930 ish and their 30 min coffee breaks last an hour.
Having said that, their knowledge is outstanding as is their instructional skill but you can only take so much in.
I stated earlier that we were told we couldn't shadow, this turned out not to be true and I shadowed a very knowledgeable guy.
I'm enjoying it so far, the guy I'm shadowing has good and bad days, he earned over a £100 on one day, but the next day was a washout and he only got £20, and he's pretty slick and knowledgeable.
Don't expect to earn £100 a day for a while though. :td:

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Thanks for the reply and helpful info :-), so on the whole it's definitely worth doing you'd say. So I know in advance, what do I need to take along with me? Do they supply clothing for the training, or is there anything in particular I need to wear? Sorry if sounds a stupid question, just want to be as best prepared as I can.

Thanks for all the info once again
John

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

It's too early to tell for me bud, there's a lot of bad opinions on here about them so who knows.
They send you the information you need, clothing to take etc- guys wore jeans but others had outdoor clothing like walking trousers or works trousers.
You'll get boots from before you go up poles but the rest if the uniform might not come for a while and you won't use it on the course really.
Take notepad and pens, 99% of it is indoors and the shop they run is pretty expensive so stock up on lunch type food if you want and save receipts. Yea and coffee there is free. Breakfast is in the price ofthe hotel but evening meal is your responsibility- the hotel bar has a Kelly's discounted menu.
That's about it really, don't drink the night before your assessment, it doesnt go down well. And it's fiddly as f*** with shaky hands. :dozey:

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Do not work for Kelly's end of worst company in the world managers are back stabbers I moved over to Quinns and we have to pay out own diesel and digs when working away but when out of area (which is 2 weeks out of 12) you get in to the frame of mind that u r working away so u blast it and make over 1000 a week ! Morale of the story kelly communications think they own you and are a joke of a company

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

wait till youve been at quimms a bit longer, it applies to those muppets as well. the main problem is they( senior managers/control) think they employ you and as such can tell you to do anything that need s doing to cover their sorry asses when they cock up( which is more often than not) they forget we are self employed contractors and are paid per job.:monkey: .

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Ive been at kellys for just short of a year now and to be honest I dont know what all the bad reports are about,
I think alot of people on here who are whinging and moaning about the job need to give their head a rattle. Your job title is OVERHEAD LINESMAN therefore expect to have to climb telegraph poles and install overhead lines??
Not every job will be easy and it wont be sunny every day, expect to work hard and in return be rewarded with what I personally think is a good wage for todays climate,
i average between £600 to £800 a week every week and in order to earn this I have to get up at 6:30am mon to fri, drive to my first job in my fully equipped 12 plate transit with diesel provided and graft until im finished.
Yeh I sometimes might finish at 7pm but then again I could finish at 2, it just depends on the luck of the draw really. At the end of the day im paid to put phonelines into customers houses, so to complain about having to do it just doesn't make sense to me?

Ive worked at far worse places like AVC where u really do get treated like dirt and taken for every penny they can get out of you.
At kellys it seems to be if you use your initiative and get on with the job then you get left alone and can earn decent money, which at the end of the day is the reason we go to work.

I spent a few hours with my TM recently whilst getting my van serviced and his phone literally rang every 2 minutes. One lad phoned to say he had lost his drill bit in a garden and another to say he was running low on fuel and didnt know where the nearest garage was!!
Come on seriously, what the f*ck do you want your TM to do about it!?
Its probably the guys like that who will struggle and the reason why the TM dont have any time for them.
Honestly for the people who say they would be better off stacking shelves or working at McDs then go for it. If thats your mind set then you have no chance of working on your own on the BT network.

For anyone with a bit of common sense and initiative then you can do alot worse than kellys.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Just hijacking this thread to say we had a Kelly guy out today to install a new line over poles and also internal work into one of our buildings.

There was no way it was one man job due to the route the cable had to go so I gave him a hand where I could.

He did a fantastic job and didn't complain once so :tu: to him.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

shoot2thrill
you are obviously a 'Kellys monkey' I mean manager.
What a crappy little script you spout. Still preying on the desperate, naïve and gullible.
Go back to digging roads or shoving virgin cables 2cm under some poor sods lawn ;)

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

So what your essentialy saying is unless I slag off kellys then im a manager?
I therefore cant provide an opinion??
Trust me im not a manager at kellys just an installer who like you put it was "desperate and naiive" iv got kids and a motgage to pay so £800 a week for a bit of hard work seems an ok deal to me.
It seems to be the trend on these forums that the minute anyone has anything good or honest to say about something there branded a manager by some keyboard warrior nobody who couldnt hack it and vents there frustration by getting insultive over the internet.

The thread is about whats it like to work for kellys, not whether im a manager or a monkey or whatever other **** you want to spout from the safety of your keyboard.

It asked a question and I gave my honest opinion, end of.

People like you are the reason kellys get a bad name in the first place.
Plucked from stacking shelves in tesco you quickly realise you cant handle a proper days graft,
you want set hours and easy jobs, you want a new van but dont want to travel too far and in return you want good money, the only problem is any job you come across thats too hard and you start to complain and cancel it down, blaming kellys for actually expecting you yo do a bit of work, it starts to rain and straight home you go with some lame excuse, leaving your fellow team mates to clean up your sh*t.
You sit at team meetings and dont say a word then start shouting your mouth off the minute the TM has gone, I expect your the worlds greatest ever telecoms installer however the figures say different, they say you cause faults, do a poor job and cancel more than you should (you then moan about your poor wage)
however none of that is your fault......its kellys.

Ive only worked at kellys a year but have been in a similar trade for the last 10, we get plenty of people like you passing through and we spot you a mile off. You last about 3 months before you finally quit or get sacked leaving a trail of sh*t bodge jobs and unhappy customers behind you.

Then whilst claiming your job seekers you vent on the Internet about how crap your old employer was and that anyone who works for them is a clown.

Where I come from we have a name for people like you, DICK HEAD

You want it all but your not willing to work for it, and lets be honest its hardly rocket science is it?

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

are Quinns setting on in Notts area does anyone know ??

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Stay well away from working for them, you'll regret it!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Ive just said the same about working for Fujitsu lol

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

This message is directed to shoot2thrill. I disagree with some of your comments. I worked for Kelly's and lasted two months. I didn't botch a single job, in fact I completed every job to the highest standards and never had a single audit failure. I have always been a dedicated professional and spent 15 years working for Ericsson's commissioning digital exchanges which I can assure you is way more technical and highly skilled. My problem was Kelly's had me working in rural areas, farms etc and it was impossible to make a living. The majority of poles were joint user and I could spend up to 3 hours waiting for a hoist to complete five minutes work, and if that wasn't bad enough I would spend hours climbing carrier poles to connect one customer to the DP before even starting the internal fit. A living can be had if you're fortunate to work in built up areas but if you're stuck out in the middle of nowhere then its almost impossible. I agree with some of your comments tho, I too have worked with lazy incompetents that lasted five minutes on the job,. but to say that the guys that last a couple of months are whingers and moaners and have nothing better to to do than complain is wrong.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

dead right, all the managers want to see is comps. the so called 'top' engineers on quinns are given the choice areas most of the time and cry like stuck pigs when they go out into the sticks.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

gamb0 thats a fair point I totally agree with you on that one,
If your doing rural routes then plainly put the job isnt worth the money or the effort.
Im fortunate enough to work in the city/suburbs so majority of jobs can be done,

I had a 12 span install last week that was dis at 70metres, no chance of doing it for £25.
Phoned BT and explained they need to send a salaried engineer who can spend several hours on it.
Like I say tho luck of the draw with how the jobs land im afraid.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

shoot2thrill, I'm amazed your sim allowed you to send that job back to BT. I never had that luxury.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Just to give an idea of luck of the draw regarding jobs,
Had 6 installs today and only managed to complete 1, had to partial 2 and rest had to cancel.
8am until 5pm for £45!
Monday had 6 installs all complete and done for 2:30

Like I say just luck of the draw

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I'm convinced this will all be shut down soon anyway. You guys AREN'T self employed but Quinn's and Kelly's are trying to act like you are. I used to work for HMRC and we had a flow chart to try and work out if someone is self employed or employed. You would definitely fall into the bracket of 'employed'.

It's a tax and NI dodge, but more than that it's way cheaper than having to pay you all a proper salary.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

yep, youre dead right. most are on paye thru agencys, not sure if they realise the law has changed regarding agency workers rights. sooner or later someone will challenge them in court over this.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Re: Kelly Communications
Hello fellow cable guys,
I've been offered a position with Kelly's as an Overhead installation Tech, on the BT Openreach contract. Minimum of four jobs a day. This is on a Self Employed basis. Paying £25 per complete install and £10 if incomplete for any reason & £15 for BT Vision installs. My tax & NI are taken care of through Work force construction at a cost of £32 per fortnight. I have also been informed that should I leave with in 12 months I will be charge £500 for cost of training. So PLEASE PLEASE can you guys advise me as to how Kelly's currently work and how the employees are treated any pay issues and work conditions

Thanks

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Doodledandy-Yeah I thought this was still going on, self employed hey? Well you're not! And you're getting ripped off. Bear in mind as they don't class you as an employee they don't have to pay a pension (the new pension rules don't apply), and they don't have to pay employer's National Insurance contributions.

Read my post above. You'd be doing nothing wrong by accepting this contract, but it's a tax dodge on behalf of the company employing you. I do think in time all of the people on "self-employed" contracts will be bought under PAYE when HMRC inevitably investigates.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

This bit would send me running a mile.
You are being penalised for the fact that other people have not done their work correctly.

If you completed your part of the job correctly, then you should be paid the £25.
I would be quite interested in how such a policy faired under unfair contract rules.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Doesn't matter does it? There is no contract as they are "self employed"

If there were contracts they would be employed. And it isn't that someone hasn't done their job properly, most of the time it should work and when the contractor turns up to do the install the records were wrong.

Jobs only go out to contractors if they are easy and on the records are showing as probably getting to the pole. Complex installs go to Openreach engineers instead. Obviously records aren't always correct.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Quinns have the same arrangement and your right it is outrageous, but at the moment theres not a lot else out there any better.
As for contractors only getting easy jobs??

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Easy compared to installs that Openreach engineers get? Absolutely. I didn't mean they were easy jobs though.

Openreach engineers get complex installs, where the system thinks there is likely to be an underground fault and that the line isn't going to be getting to the DP. Openreach engineers also get FTTC installs where the test system has identified a fault existing on the line, contractors don't get those jobs.

So yes, the installs that contractors get are without a doubt easier by their very nature as the tricky ones are sifted out.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Why not ask to be paid direct and take care of your own NI and tax? Why pay for the luxury of being paid? Or perhaps, have your own accountant? It would cost far less than £32 per fortnight!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I don't think that's an option. Doubt there would be an option for PAYE. As far as I understood it the £32 is compulsory!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Yes it is compulsory.......
But paying them to take your NI and Tax is taking the michael

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Compulsory, says who? Remember if you're self employed you've got no boss.

Seems like Kelly's and Quinn's have reinvented the term!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

I'm not suggesting a PAYE option, aren't we self-employed? Contrary to popular belief/what we are lead to believe we are not! But how do self-employed tradesman get paid usually? Directly! Are they generally forced to use an umbrella company? No! They either get an accountant or do it themselves! Were we given that option? No! Do i need to go on?

Ultimately WE ARE EMPLOYED and any contract which states otherwise is horlicks! Subsequently we should, by law, all be entitled to the National Minimum Wage (calculated on the basis of our pay frequency, divided by the number of hours worked - fortnightly in our case) and if the said contract proves less favorable than the National Minimum Wage, then by law, it's overridden. Don't believe me? Go ahead, discuss it with Her Majesty's Customs and Revenue! Naturally, as employees we should all be entitled to 28 days holiday per year as well.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

we were given the option to be paid direct when the contract started but you had to have a ltd company. i dont that option exists anymore.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

How come you've quoted me? I've just spent several days saying you are employed, not self employed. If you rang up HMRC and let them run through their little employment status flow chart over the phone their conclusion would be that you are employed. Therefore I don't think this will last and eventually they will be forced to bring you all under PAYE.

Why doesn't someone write to HMRC formally? Ask for a decision to be made on your employment status (knowing what the answer will be). The more people that bring this to their attention the better.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

because as soons as quinns found out who it was they would release them from the contract to protect their own interests.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

They had all sorts of scams years ago when I was with them. I'm sure they (or one of there umbrella companies who are sooo closely linked to them) were done for tax fraud a few years back. When on the Hays contract they used umbrella companies and you got paid per hour. Then the umbrella companies rules were changed and agency laws came in we were employed by Hays. Every day we worked we accrued holiday pay. Seems Kelly's are still bending the rules and they are probably being watched by HMRC but have been for many years. Kelly's aren't thick though and get away with it.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

i think its more a case that the gov has told the hmrc to turn a blind eye, a jobs a job and it keeps the unemployment figures down whilst the low pay and poor working conditions benefits their mates at the top of these dodgy companies.
the fixed line telecom industry has got to be one of the worst places to work these days, out of all the utilities that got privatised, i reckon we got shafted the most.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Totaly agree, a jobs a job at the end of the day.
and at 28k a year for monday to friday with no outlay there is a hell of a lot worse out there.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

i applied online last night to Kelly communications, and have just had a missed call of them earlier, so about to give them a call now.

will update.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Is it 28k after all of the deductions have come out though? Ie after they take all that off but BEFORE tax? How many hours per week do you work for that pay? Also there's no pension, no sick pay, no holiday pay. All of these things should be taken into account!

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Its before tax is that figure. But I get a nice rebate fter april.

Its hard to say how many hours a week i do, it depends what type of jobs iv had on that week. Most days start at 8am and finish between 2 to 4pm.
Some days you might have a nightmare tho and could end up finishing at 6 or 7. Just depends really.
With regards to no pension or sick pay i knew that when i signed up. Iv been self employed for last 7 years so made no difference to me.

Anyone with any experience in telecoms/sky/virgin/electrical industry will know its not a set hours type of job. You dont just down tools and go home at 5.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Yeah I know. I work in the telecoms industry but I'm direct labour, not a contractor. I think you guys are getting shafted if I'm honest. Was just trying to figure out by how much. I'm surprised more don't come from Kelly's/Quinn's over to BT OR when they recruit.

It's absolutely bonkers this contracting malarkey. Contractors being paid per job going into a house connecting a modem to an extension socket using a micro filter and buggering off. When if an actual company employee picked up the job they'd have to remove all star wiring, possibly run a data connection round the side of a house. Then they'd have to test with their test equipment, and if that picks up a fault they have to go and fix it! So you end up with tonnes of jobs coming in to go and clean up after contractors. It's a false economy.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Ive considered applying to BT OR but they rarely seem to recruit and I dont think I could manage on the wage drop to begin with. Dont the trainee OR lads start on 14k or something daft? Or is it a different system for guys with experience?

I agree that it is a bonkers system. I dont do MI anymore i only do copper line provides which we have to carry out to the same SOP as openreach otherwise we get the money taken back off us, so its in our interest to do it properly.
However when I did the MI work it was sh*t pay and we didnt get provided any proper test equipment. So you get the scenario of lads only being able to do a basic job and any problems that occur arent dealt with as it wasnt worth the poor pay! Its a vicious cycle
I requested to be taken off the contract and thankfully I got swapped back to copper installations which is worth the money. (Most of the time)

The argument of "subbies" V direct labour will roll on forever tho I reckon.
If kellys and quinns pulled there lads out tomorrow could OR cope? Definitely not.
like wise OR couldnt or wouldnt set thousands more engineers on either.
I dont know why OR guys dont just learn to live with the fact contractors are needed.
if OR offered to set us all on im sure we would jump at the chance but that isnt going to happen.
Im quite surprised by the hostility shown by OR towards its contractors, most of you seem to agree were getting shafted yet you still slag us off and look down at us at every opportunity.
Surely the us V them philosophy helps nobody.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

OR survived fine for years without contractors.

OR engineers start on about £23k and then the top of the pay band is £27k. The thing is though anything after your normal finish time in the evening is paid at the overtime rate which is much more. So most lads are on 30 odd k. Obviously then if you work overtime at the weekend you'd be on more again. If you have to work away that is guaranteed overtime also. Of course everything is paid for tools and vehicle wise so you just pay tax via PAYE. So the pay is good, with 5 weeks holiday, sick pay and a decent pension. There's other benefits too.

I think the £14k you're thinking of is the apprentice wage. Most OR staff don't come in as apprentices. To be fair the hostility is probably because when contractors came in it was an absolute nightmare and the quality of work was awful. Customers being told they've got to have their phone socket in the hall and it can't be moved. That's just not true! Old obsolete wiring being left in place etc. It HAS got better but the MI installs from contractors are still awful.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

It sounds like you guys are on a good crack then! Defo worth looking into.
i presume there is still some sort of training/buddying system involved to gauge what level a person is at?

I can agree the quality side of things is a problem, not so much on copper provides as SOP is hammered into us, but on MI definitely. I was told I was on MI via a phonecall one monday morning, id literally never done anything to do with MI and had to ask instructions over the phone! Shambles really, and its that type of thing which obviously seperates us.

I think they are now setting on guys specifically for the MI contract with actual training involved so things might improve.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Yeah buddying is compulsory and you get petty of actual training at training centres. It just depends on your skill as to how long you will buddy. Everyone would start off on MI and they gradually ramp up your skills over the course of a couple of years to underground and broadband faults.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

so working for Kelly;s, whats the average wage ???

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

After all the crap has been taken off like diesel, admin fees to Kelly's, tools etc.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

well i know i think its paid every 2 weeks, and you pay a firm to do the tax etc.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

i thought kellys gave fuel cards to their engineers. ?

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Got an interview for a customer service engineer on Wednesday......not sure what to expect as only applied for an OR job as a cable reclaimer...in october......been a mechanic for the last 20 years so hope i can do it.....any idea of the benefits?and the woman that rang me had no idea of what the job entailed or of the wage.....great start

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Wow well done. What do you mean the benefits? A CSE is basically fixing network faults it's a good job. You will start doing fibre installs mostly and then over the following couple of years you'll do training so that you'll be fixing underground network faults and very few installs. It's the pay grade above*the cable reclaiming job.
I can tell you what your wages will be, you'll start on about 21k or 23k (I can't remember which) and the maximum is 27k when you reach the top of the pay grade. Overtime on top of that. Don't whatever you do ask what your pay will be. The interviewer probably won't know and you'll blow your chances of getting a job. Back to your question about benefits, I don't quite know what you mean by that. You get free broadband, good pension etc.

Just be careful, it's a great job and you're coming across slightly like all you're worried about is money and benefits. They won't give you a job if that's how you come across in an interview. I don't think any big company would. Good luck.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Thanks for the reply MrIca....not desperate but was just curious as to the benefits package....as it was mentioned but that was all....had the interview today and seemed to go ok .Was told my starting basic would be between £17-19k.....just been sent a link to do some online testing,so plan to do that on the weekend when i have more time

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

good luck. nothing wrong in asking what the package includes. its what any savvy person would do. back in the day, companies were honest enough to include all that in the job advert. nowadays they just spout **** like generous benefits, competitive salary and then batt you off against the next man to see how low you will go.
Dont be under any illusions with openreach, the new recruits are being brought in on inferior contracts to the existing engineers to lower the wage bill and change the t&c's by default. . They are pushing the older lads out the door as fast as they can and back filling with new recruits and cheap cowboy labour.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Not sure I agree with all of this. There are pay bands like any big company and the CSE role falls into a pay band so everyone is on similar money. So I'm not sure how your idea of batting off against the next man works. How exactly are older people being pushed out? I just don't see it myself.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

[I]Anyone with any experience in telecoms/sky/virgin/electrical industry will know its not a set hours type of job. You dont just down tools and go home at 5.[/QUOTE][/I]

Unless you work for Openreach and your Manager won't pay overtime!! ;)

---------- Post added at 15:15 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

I used to thoroughly and doubly check any pole erected by Kelly's after one fell over after a day. I'm sure there was a story about a contractor firm sawing the poles to make them fit hence the depth was dangerously shallow..

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

wasnt looking to cause a row....just asking as im keen to change frommy current job

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

There's no row you're just bound to get some strong opinions I think when you ask about a big company.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

i was talking in general terms not about openreach specifically, . , i worked for openreach bt for over 20 years so i know the pay structure. as for old guys being pushed out , im just talking from experience of the colleagues i worked with that are still with (or not in some cases) openreach.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

well did the online test sunday before last and not heard anything back so guessing its a no anyway

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

BT is supposed to be recruiting 1600 new staff try that as you will be much better off than with kellys or MJQuins there training is better and you will get paid holidays pension and overtime not price work

---------- Post added at 19:16 ---------- Previous post was at 19:07 ----------

Kellys training is a joke I got no buddying with Quinns when I started and as for 4 jobs aday? try getting on BT direct they are suppose to be recruiting 1600 new starters

---------- Post added at 19:32 ---------- Previous post was at 19:16 ----------

Try getting on Bt

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Well no feedback from them so thats a no go for me then....bit ****ed as they assured i would hear one way or the other

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Try BT direct they are recruiting go online and apply

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Just seen a letter from the union re fvr contract. Openreach have agreed to reduce the number of Kelly contractors and use in-house staff . Looks like quimms wont even get a look in now.

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

update.......well im in,phone call out of the blue and in 3 weeks time im going to Yarnfield to start training as an overhead cable engineer....anyone know how long the training is or what my role will entail?

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

any news on bt applications?

Re: Kelly's BT Openreach Engineers
 

Bt are paying either £17000 or £19000 per annum for the customer services engineer or £19000 or £21000 for the cable recovery roles , I know as I had a firm job offer from them.
I turned down the role as when I applied last year the starting salary was to be £23500 for me which I was willing to drop down to but then a whole load of army leavers were taken on with a massive government incentive , I was earning £19000 20 years ago and I know i'm worth more.