Welfare or Soldiers?
 

There seems to be a row brewing about the upcoming defence spending review .Philip Hammond seems to be suggesting that his department has been cut enough and further cuts should be made to the welfare budget ,lib dems feel the welfare budget should be protected .
Personally ,although against massive welfare spending i think we could cut the MOD budget a lot more ,we don't need a huge standing army and i think that the MOD can do a lot better as regards it's procurement


http://news.sky.com/story/1059053/de...are-not-troops

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

I think they should cut child benefit first. Or means test it to a point in line with the means testing of other welfare benefits. Basically if you're not claiming any benefits because you're in work then you shouldn't be getting child support. Or limit it to 1 child max.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

I find this the most distasteful article ever, in the fact that l was reading various papers today and found that army personnel who have left the armed forces are now forced to live on the streets, and in poverty.

I simply cannot understand the logic behind this idiotic government and what the aims are.

Government minsters are saying hit the welfare budget to save army personnel, The money that we are saving is going somewhere - but where.

They cannot keep hitting the welfare budget, as this is unfair and extremely cruel. The government have got to stop feeding other countries with our Taxes.

Service who have hit the poverty line and now live in squats to survive, well this is a disgrace to the governments past and present, they put there lives on the line for us and treated like lepers by the government - absolute disgrace.

Its about time MPs took a pay cut, to cover costs, if its good enough for the working people of the UK, its good enough for MPs.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

In a ideal world Welfare should be there for those who genuinely need it and especially for those who are genuinely sick and disabled and on the defence of this country l think we have cut enough already and if we cut any more then this will lead to the loss of the UK's armed forces capability.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

I don't think that would save the level of money they need though and in some cases the fact you may not be claiming any type of benefit is because you are receiving child support

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

Strip the Armed Forces to the bone, relying more-and-more on Reservists (the renamed Territorial Army et al).

Then if something big blows up, bring back mandatory conscription of cannon fodder from the ranks of the mass unemployed?

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

What capability do we actually need though ?

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

Remember we don't know whats round the corner and to me it would be absolute folly to cut our defence's any more then is already planned.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

At this rate we will be back to Victorian values in no time..:erm:

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

Yes great idea, families with children struggling to make ends meet who would probably be better off on benefits should not be allowed child support. But those who don't work should be allowed child benefit, Housing benefit, Council tax benefit.

What a stella plan, children see mom and dad working hard to give their kids the best should now suffer because their honest hard working parents refuse to quit work and get EVERTHING paid for them.

This whole, make benefit life more comfortable than working for a living is bull, cut benefits for none workers to an absolute minimum needed for the basics. How about that?

So far you've said ATOS are basically useless as they might cut benefits, and child benefit should be stopped. But your benefits should be untouched?I guess you think you should never have to work, you have the typical "entitlement" selfish mentality of a long term benefit claimant. You don't care what happens or who is effected as long as YOU don't have to go to work.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

I think at the moment though the threat level is very low ,we are not in any danger of invasion and our only military commitments are for other countries .Defense cuts don't necessarily mean troop cuts though ,or shouldn't anyway ,the waste and overspending is enormous in the MOD ,this report from the Public Accounts Committee is particularly damming

http://www.parliament.uk/business/co...nce-inventory/

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

Yes waste has been a problem for as long as l know and we don't seem to be any nearer to sorting that out.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Wherever the axe falls some, maybe many, people will feel hard done by. To what extent those feelings are justified is a matter of opinion, however, and I reckon those who've worked hard, paid their taxes and been prudent have a right to feel more upset than those who've come to rely on the state to fund their lives for no other reason than it's been made too easy for them to do it. Of course, in the middle, there are those who've fallen upon hard times through no fault of their own and are truly deserving of state assistance and they too are now going to suffer more than they should largely because of that element who've made a conscious decision to live off the state and have been allowed to get away with it for far too long.

I must agree that eradicating the sort of institutionalised wastage and ineptitude displayed by the likes of the MOD ought to come first, however. Whatever happens to the men and women in suits who've cost us so many unnecessary £billions over the decades? They never seem to get sacked and where are the politicians crying out for their heads along with those of the pesky bankers? The public sector unions rather like slating the City fat cats but you never hear them commenting on the abject failure of their own members and the massive cost to society thereof.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

I've been reading Private Eye again..So I'm not surprised.The wastage that occurs in all areas of public services in this country usually by one or two at the top of the hierarchy is astounding.

Also how many more integrated IT systems are we going to be implementing through our public services before we finally get one that works and hasn't had to be junked to the tune of millions? Cowboy software companies seem to always get the tender.:(:mad:

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

A fortune could be saved in procurement alone as it is a massive department compared to many other militarys in the world i believe the israeli department has a huge staff of 500 (sarcasm there) compared to our 20k plus. Also buying off the shelf instead of grandiose projects would also save billions no need to cut manpower levels at all cut the pen pusher's. Actually employ some of the personnel they have just got shot of and listen to their recommendations on kit and fortune saved.

P.s oh and dragging welfare into this when there is so much wastage within the M.O.D is pathetic by phillip hammond sadly i am not surprised by this.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

It is fair to "drag" welfare in to this, don't forget we have people who do nothing but smoke weed daily and claim benefits. So we need to find a away of sniffing out such pathetic losers and kicking them off benefits. I'm sure that's something you would agree with.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

If we get rid of some of the soldiers then they might well need to go onto welfare!

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:25 ----------

Are you being sarcastic?

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

No I'm being serious, unless you think paying perfectly healthy people benefits to sit at home and smoke weed is acceptable?

This is the point I'm trying to make, if you're a pathetic sad loser who is scared of work but you know you're able to work then I really hope you lose all you benefits. The reason it ****es me off is genuine cases get less help, services get cut and people suffer. An its down to liars, frauds and pathetic individuals.

I think genuine cases should get MORE help financially, as a tax payer I'm happy to pay to ensure genuine cases get a good standard of living, a car, a holiday. I also don't think they should be forced to live on vile council estates and face a retirement of a horrific lack of income an unaffordable gas/electric bills.

So if only people would understand ATOS is doing good, yes they get it wrong sometimes but then so does the NHS, The police, The firebrigade, The legal system, The education system.

But overall they are reducing fraud, reducing incorrect benefit payments and trust me people are getting MORE money and help due to ATOS.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Waldo is having a really bad day today. :sniper:

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Bogof there is this thing called context and in the context of defence spending with so much waste within the M.O.D it was pathetic to say soldiers or welfare. Also while I'm happy you've got a job with atos there is no need to constantly praise them everytime you post.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

I agree with you.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...cons/icon1.gif
And I second that

Re: Welfare or Soldiers ??
 

Never going to happen because the tree hugging want us to do it. They would sooner waste money on other countries than give it to our own people.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Well as you've admitted you don't pay tax but do take from the system your opinion really doesn't matter, it's not your taxes that you have worked a 40 hour week to have large portion of your wages deducted for tax.

My opinion is valid and tax payers should have a say, but you saying where tax should go is like me telling my neighbour how to spend the wages he has earned.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

I wonder what's next. Withdrawal of voting rights for people on benefits?

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

All I'm saying is if you don't pay tax then you won't have same feelings about how tax is spent. Hence none tax payers opinion are not really that important.

It us the tax payers, its OUR money which we pay into a system that should more than anything benefit us the tax payer.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

That's bollocks ,there are plenty of hard wording people who fall below the tax threshold ,are you saying they don't have a say in how the taxes are spent .We elect a government to decide how to spend taxes and society as a whole decides who sits in that government .By your standard those who pay more tax should have the most say with those who pay having none.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

No! Those are your words,

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Right. So presumably then, people who pay more tax have more right to an opinion as well. Or is that too much bollocks?

---------- Post added at 16:53 ---------- Previous post was at 16:51 ----------

It's the logical conclusion. If you think it's nonsense then perhaps that should tell you something about the premise.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

If thats your opinion that's fine, but I disagree strongly.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

No i don't pay tax or work anymore because while serving my country i got severely wounded and during my 15 month recuperation a genetic disease called ankylosing spondylitis took hold and completely fused my neck and spine and has now spread to my shoulders giving me severe arthritis in both shoulders. So yes i take from a system that i paid into for many years and was under the misguided impression that the system was there for this very thing. Also following your logic i am perfectly entitled to comment in any defence thread or debate because i have served so therefore my opinion is worth far more then anyone that hasn't served.

Of course that assumes the premise is good which it isn't everyone in this country has the right to an opinion on any public matter because that is one of the major freedoms of this country and no one has the right to try and dismiss it or diminish it in anyway.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

No you didn't.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Er excuse me i am pretty sure i know what has happened to me in my life and also damn sure you do not.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Actually it's yours ,and your type of thinking is most definitely what we don't want .We are in the middle of the biggest change to welfare for decades ,a change that is not only designed to save money but to change the way people think about welfare we don't need your type of attitude creating a divide between those that work and those that don't because anyone of us workers could easily be unemployed/permanently sick tomorrow ,your attitude of "if you don't pay taxes then you have no say in how they are spent" is just as ignorant as it gets

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

This is getting quite bizarre...

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Methinks he is digging himself a rather large hole.:dig:

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

For me it's a no brainer ,the MOD could save billions if it applied itself and probably not have to lose too many soldiers either

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

This is ridiculous, I have been upfront and open about my views, I don't try to sugar coat and I have no problem when others disagree with me, infact I encourage it.

But the complete fantasy that is some of the replies I am getting is laughable, I am being deliberately misquoted, comments made by other users who then try to force them on me as my views. Along with fantastical stories why some are on benefits has ruined this debate/thread.

I am aware for some here not getting your own way results in endless sob stories and wallowing in self pitty, an if that doesn't work threats of suicide perhaps follow. But unfortunately I am entitled to my opinions, an that is the UK benefit system is simply brilliant. But unfortunately filthy pathetic low life **** attempt to defraud the genuinely needy. Reducing available services and perhaps costing lives.

So stop attempting to missquote me, grow up and understand I will be happy to see all scroungers kicked of benefits whilst genuine cases and the low paid get more help.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Nobody has misquoted you ,you have however called Rizzy a liar and said because he doesn't work he(and nobody else who doesn't work) has no right to say in how taxes are spent.

I have been most vocal in my views about benefits but i appreciate that most of the claimants do not wish to be claimants ,maybe some are over fussy about the job they get or are easily defeated but they do want to work.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

All I did was explain how I ended up where I am no attempt for sympathy no sob story just an explanation if that has offended you somehow that's your problem. You'll pardon me if I don't believe you when you say the genuine should get help because in your eye's no one is genuine they just have fantastical stories. Also if the little quip about suicide was also aimed at me sorry your wrong too many people worked hard to keep me alive and get me a degree of freedom for me to throw it away. I honestly don't know why you posted what you did but hope in future you can debate in a more rational manner.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

The welfare budget is out of control. That said, I don't see any cuts to immigrants benefits, or illegal immigrants who are still hanging on & sponging off the country. All I have seen up to now is a company of hit-men ploughing through the incapacity benefit, & proposals to do the same with the Disability Living Allowance. I don't see any cuts to foreign countries either.

The MoD is the most useless, wasteful, corrupt government department we have. Its full of people who know nothing except how to waste taxpayers money on useless equipment. Every service man or woman made redundant will cost us money. The first thing they will do is sign up for benefits & housing. How is that going to help the pot?

I`m proud to be British, & ashamed of my government. Their priorities are driving this country toward radical political parties, many of whom are gaining ground all the time. We need a strong Army, my lad was in Kenya last week, (BATUK) they have orders to carry sidearms whenever out of camp. Radical Islamist s are like a plague, spreading poison everywhere, & I for one don't want to wake up at 6am to the wailing of some old plonker spreading the word.

You can only negotiate from a position of strength.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Miss-quoting works both ways, I assume you're a fully grown adult man? If so stop telling me what I think or what I didn't say. You go on like a bored housewife. An by the way, you were not injured in the Army ;)

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

I don't think you're going to get the desired effect you're after on this forum. There's no point in saying much more really.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

please support your assertion, or stop stating it.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

There is no "desired effect" but I will support my opinions. All I'm doing is stating my OPINION, which you are welcome to agree/disagree with but don't try to twist my opinion. If I haven't stated something explicitly don't assume I'm thinking it then post as my opinion.

Forums work best when we all post it how we see it, not trying twist what others have said. An there nothing worse than people who do that whole "ohh so in your way of thinking EVERYONE on benefits should be shot" when I haven't said anything like it and don't think it.

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

Looks fairly explicit to me....

Re: Welfare or Soldiers?
 

<snip from article>He said the "first priority" for the Government should be "defending the country and maintaining law and order" and that further defence cuts were not possible while meeting stated security objectives.</snip from article>

As much as I understand the need to maintain a healthy defense budget should we take this to mean martial law takes precedence over civil responsibility to deserving causes as maintaining a fair income to those in need of long term benefits is crucial to maintaining law and order without imposing military force ?

I also see no reference by this jackass to the ongoing welfare needs for injured service personnel.