Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

http://news.sky.com/story/1051035/gr...id-work-scheme



So it looks as though plans to give people work experience and earn their benefits have been scuppered .It looks as though we must continue to give people free money ...for free

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

WOO HOO!

This is great news for the exploited of the UK.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

This is absolutely brilliant news. This was tantamount to slavery

Its one thing training someone up in a job worth having but stacking shelves and pushing a mop. If the shops need staff to do these jobs then THEY SHOULD BLOODY WELL EMPLOY THEM AND PAY THEM and yes I was shouting

---------- Post added at 10:52 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

Oh and Marty you just want another mega left vs right thread again lol

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

This is going to shake everything up big time. all those people who are working for free don't have to do it no more.

I can imagine the celebrations going on at jobcentres all over the country!

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Or the companies that offer these schemes can pay their workers. There is no justification for us to pay to help Poundland have 'interns'. Forcing people to work for free should be illegal.

Internships should be voluntary and for real jobs where experience is required and difficult to come by. Newspapers offering Interships or places like Google, they offer real value to the Intern if they choose to take it.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

This thread is dedicated to GaryL;) .He can now strut around the forum ,nay the entire internet , saying "i told you so, i knew the workshy layabouts would win in the end" .

So now we will have people sitting on the dole waiting for the ideal job to turn up instead of taking any job to get them off benefits

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

just imagine I have put the clap smilie in here lol

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

that is your misplaced prejudice there I am afraid

---------- Post added at 11:01 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

these were not jobs to get people of benefits where did you get that idea?

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Well, I did say that it was illegal. and look what happened.

I'm so happy for everyone! :)

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They're still on benefits. They're being made to work for these companies for free or risk losing them.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

A) they got paid ,via benefits

B) mopping floors,stacking shelves and getting out of bed in the morning is just as much work experience as learning how to lay bricks or do admin work

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Now let's discuss compensation claims.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

absolute cods wallop. The should allow the long term unemployed to take 6 to 12 months off looking for work ( specially seeing as there is only 1 job for every 5 unemployed ( keep having to use these figures cuz some refuse to acknowledge this reality )) so they can go to collage and learn some sort of trade or at least create decent courses in things like plumbing or carpentry or bricklaying. Or even reintroduce schemes for apprenticeships or a better fairer implementation of the YTS scheme they had in the 90s. Obviously not the same as it was not that fair but it gives those under the age of 18 who may not be academic to learn practical skills and get a wage as they are not entitled to benefits as a rule

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

They where a scheme to get people into the habit of work .Once a person has been unemployed for a period of time it is much harder to get them back into work .Having the right ethic goes a long way as far as any employer is concerned ,these schemes only applied to the long term unemployed where designed to get them used to work .

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Home come none of this applied to Labour's schemes?

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Having a society where there are 2.5 million unemployed and only 500000 jobs to go round means no matter what your ethic is your in trouble

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

All the more reason to stay in the market

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Then the companies can pay them for mopping floors and stacking shelves instead of the Government threatening to withdraw benefits if they don't. They should at least topped up to the equivalent minimum wage.

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Which will, of course, result in loss of benefit. ;)

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only if the amount is above the few grand you are allowed.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

LOL
They can put a fresh claim in when they've spent it all :)

No doubt Dave is fuming!

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

All they would be entitled to is stopped benefits .If they are entitled to be payed the going rate for the work they did it, would result in their claim stopping as they would be classed as earnings ,which is of course why the companies involved in the schemes where not allowed to pay them in the first place

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

and here we have another issue. The red tape. When someone gets a job that is temporary it should be a much simpler process to get back onto JSA once the job is over. The red tape is ridicules and it does put people off taking temp jobs

And they should have made a simple way of letting they get paid and go back onto benefits after without hassle

They will be entitled to back pay yes but what if there is found to be a civil case to answer. The courts have just found that what the government done was illegal so the very policy by definition is a criminal offence victims of said offences may well have a civil compensation claim.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

They wouldn't be classed as 'earning' they're not there.
it will be classed as a windfall. and it's highly unlikely to be more than the allowed limit where they are not entitled to receive any benefits.

it's just who is liable to pay. the companies or the government.
but they can argue about that amongst themselves.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

About time they put a stop to this nonsense.

They've been running these for years through a company named BTCV. Up here they had strong contacts with B&Q and various factories, They'd bring the unemployed through the door, assess their qualifications and if they were already trained for the work they were after they'd send them out to B&Q or similar for the 13 week duration. This meant they had numerous unpaid workers at companies all year round for 13 week stints at a time.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

there were those left to sleep under the bridge with the Olympics also iirc

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Why is this being called 'unpaid work' and 'slavery' since in return for the work these people were given dole money? :confused:

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I think that was a blatant abuse of the system by G4S ,a different thing altogether

---------- Post added at 11:36 ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 ----------

Because some people think they should get free money from tax payers with little or no obligation to the people who give it them

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Why do you have something called a minimum wage...

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Because John on the dole was getting £71 a week. and Billy the official employee was getting £300 a week.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

They had the dole money. They were forced onto these schemes with the threat of losing it if they refuse . Ergo they were not being paid to work they were forced to work or be sanction there was no wage

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Also we were paying for the below minimum wage salaries instead of the companies.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

some tax payers like to focus on the unemployed rather that tax avoidance or mps expenses scandals or the fact billions have been wasted in pointless wars which we were lied to about in the first place

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Most on the other hand like to focus on all of the above .

I am waiting to see what effect this judgement has on the unpaid work prisoners are ordered to do instead of jail time

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

So why is the Government singularly focusing on the unemployed and those on benefits whilst doing f-all about tax avoidance?

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they do get paid though

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Nope ,Unpaid work for offenders is widely used ,it is more demanding and over a longer period than prison work which is a 40hr week.

http://open.justice.gov.uk/what%27s-changing/



---------- Post added at 12:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

because tax avoidance is a much more complex issue

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I can add an item which happened to my son YESTERDAY, and this story sums it up.
My son suffers from Asperger's syndrome and wants to get a job in acting, he has applied for lots of work, but has been turned down, he has diplomas also.

But we found that agents were ripping him off, But we had a call from an agency that he has been with for TWO years, and they found him nothing, BUT they wanted to see him and took him, as he wont go on his own.

They told him that the government now insist that he finds voluntary work of lose his disability benefit that he is on.

A Major chemical company which is near us wants under the government scheme, wants him to work for 12 months FREE to keep his benefit.

We have already stated that he wants to work in acting, and have the correspondence to prove it, yet the agency is insisting that he does this work.

My son will never find a job with the disability that he has, but this insistence from the government is hitting the vulnerable hard and should be stopped and this story highlights the problem that will hit the government hard.

You cannot expect people to work for free, unless there is a guaranteed job at the end of it, and working at Pound land proves the point of forced labour.

And yet the government will challenge it, how expensive that will cost.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

How is that much different from being required to look for work or not to turn down job offers, or even work experience schemes whilst still at school. Why should people be allowed to escape the rules by saying that they think that the sort of work is beneath them. That is what Cait Reilly was actually 'saying'.

How many people on these schemes look like they are employable in the first place? They are given an opportunity to show what they can do.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I think what we are suggesting is that the tax payer gives over benefits for those looking for work and that Poundland etc actually pays those who work for them and doesn't expect the TAXPAYER to subsidise Poundland etc by paying the wages of their employees.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

If there is a job to be done it should be done as a job and paid for

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

If there was a 'paid for' job, the people on the scheme wouldn't have got it in the first place. It wouldn't be worth the risk for any employers to take on the seemingly unemployable. They would be more likely to take on an East European who would do the job.

Cait Reilly's problem is that if they had offered her a 'paid for' job, she probably would have turned them down.

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Of course there are ways to make a scheme like this actually work.That the work they do benefits the community as a whole.That the work is work that will only be done by a volunteer in the local hospital or at a charity or the local library..

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Including offenders ? don't offenders deny people getting jobs by doing unpaid work

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They do infact do that, various schemes in the North East offer placements to unemployed people, offered meaning you are not forced onto it and your benefits will be fine if you said no. The placements I know about are:

NHS Admin. (Offers jobs at the end of placement if performance is good)
Libraries.
British Heart Foundation.
Care homes etc.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

What you and others are failing to realise is that the job was never there to start with .It is easy to put someone to work all it does is act as a 'bonus' to those who do work at Poundland by virtue of them doing less work .It is a false and meaningless argument to suggest that because an unemployed person has been found a few floors to mop that they are denying someone else a job .Taxpayers are subsidizing those out of work to get into the habit of work and make them more employable not top give Poundland free staff to mop their floors ,that will be done regardless.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

So why are they using companies like Poundland instead?

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Oh.

Cait Reilly, talking to the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21426928

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

No it's still the problem that this hypothetical scenario that didn't happen could have happened!!! What if someone on one of these work placements was otherwise going to go on a murderous rampage? Do you support murderous rampages Daniel? Is that what you want!?

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It looks more like they can't be arsed, and are going for the easy targets instead. Either way, it's not doing much for the coalition's credibility.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

So why didn't she take a retail job ,a job in which she admits she had experience, during the 18months she claimed dole and volunteered at a museum .Even a part time job in retail would allow her to do volunteer work at the museum

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Maybe she couldn't find such a job or maybe she waited a bit too long. It happens. When I finished my degree there is the pressure to get any job you can right away or spend time chasing the relevant jobs. Thankfully it was only about 2 months but the pressure is there right away.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Various Schemes do different things as I mentioned in my other post, BTCV being the notable standout up here for sending people off to unpaid crap.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Indeed it is ,and for many it is a short sharp shock bringing them into the real grown up world where they have responsibilities and an obligation to society to not be a burden ,especially since society has furnished her with degrees in lew of work .

It also says a lot about her that she is prepared to do unpaid work when it suits her i.e the museum but not when society demands it in return for supporting her

---------- Post added at 13:29 ---------- Previous post was at 13:25 ----------

Not so much instead of more 'as well as' ,using a wider variety of companies gives more people more experience in a wider variety of job

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

You appear to be confusing 'number of jobs advertised in Job Centres' with 'total number of vacancies in the UK'.

As has been posted before, the Small Business organisations estimate nearly 60% of their vacancies are not advertised in the JCs, and my previous employer (which had 3000 employees) very rarely placed more than 20% of it's vacancies there.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I am not confusing anything the figures were collated and used as government figures no mention anywhere that they are only job centre figures

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Just been to Tescos. it was chaos. there were hardly any staff there. the woman said they all walked out when they heard the news. now they've got to employ and pay a wage to get proper staff in :)

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Was it the removal of benefits that forced her to actually take a part-time job in a supermarket?

The ruling wasn't about whether the Government could do it all, just how it was introduced. The end result will be that the scheme will still exist. They didn't 'win' the case on the basis they they tried to win it, ie 'forced labour'.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I would have been prepared to do this, but it looks like it will be scrapped now. Wonder if this will cover me in dumping Ingeus? Waste of my time and money sitting in a room for hours every day doing the exact same thing I do at home.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I think it was the fact she was being made to do it for a private company or risk the benefits being withdrawn. Massive difference between doing work for a museum whilst receiving benefits and being forced to work for a for-profit company or have the benefits removed.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

OH i see ,stoodent ethics trumps obligations to society .

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

'Obligations to society' is a rather grandiose description for making people work for a private company without that company having to pay them. Since when did society become synonymous with private corporations? Helping society is doing what she did, working for non-profits, schools, hospitals or museums. If the Government is effectively paying for people to be forced to do work then they can at least make them done something that helps the people that pay taxes instead of giving free labour to private equity firms.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

It's not student ethics at all.It's common sense.If she is doing voluntary work then she isn't doing someone else out of a permanent job.:rolleyes:

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The other person in the appeal wasn't being asked to work for a company.

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She wasn't doing anybody out of a job as there was no job available in the first place as i have already explained

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

There was work at Poundland.We agree on that surely.Work that someone could have done on a permanent basis?Could have got a minimum wage for doing?

But instead Poundland got some one for 4 weeks at a time at less than minimum wage paid for by the taxpayer through the benefits system.Then they got another sucker for 4 weeks at less than minimum wages paid for by the taxpayer through the benefits system.

How you cannot see this beats me?

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Speaking of 'obligations to society': it seems a little wasteful to me to have people with degrees stacking shelves and mopping floors. I think she's better placed and of more benefit to society doing volunteer work for a museum.

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There was nothing stopping her from working at the museum, just that she shouldn't expected to receive benefits for it.

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I don't think unemployed people should be forced to work for private firms. It seems wrong.
Equally, I'm not sure why the taxpayer should be paying out dole money ad infinitum to able bodied people who are either unemployable or have no desire to work.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I'm not disagreeing with either position.:)

---------- Post added at 14:58 ---------- Previous post was at 14:53 ----------

So in the meantime how is she to live?The museum wasn't paying anyone and wasn't hiring anyone.The JSA is used to to cover costs and to help her to seek work until she can get a full time job that she can use the degree for which she is already in student debt.

Some of you just don't realise how lucky you are to have a job..and don't have to jump through hoops to get a job.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Someone has to decide which one they are. and make sure they're not someone who can't get a job and has no money for food.

honestly. what do people want? would they prefer them to rot?

if people had their wish of no more "taxpayers" money for the lot of them.
we'd have crime hit the roof. we'd have people killing each other. we'd all be robbed. the streets would be chaos.

it won't affect you?
don't fool yourself.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I don't have the answers. I just think it's wrong to force people to work like that and that it's also wrong for the taxpayer to foot a (in some cases) never ending bill.....

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

So what do we do with the 'unemployable'?

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

and i cannot understand how you cannot see that there was no job .The work carried out i.e mopping floors and stacking shelves was already done by existing staff ,nobody was layed off ,all it meant is that the existing staff had a slightly easier time of it

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I dunno, public sector work?
Didn't the USA govt put loads of unemployed people to work on big public projects in the 30's?

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

doing contractors out of work?

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

The able bodied 'unemployable' cannot be allowed to remain on the dole indefinitely. That's just taking the mick.
They somehow must be introduced into work then become employable and then into 'proper' jobs.
This thread is about the govts cack-handed way of attempting to do this.
They (imo) have the right idea, just have gone about it the wrong way......

---------- Post added at 15:14 ---------- Previous post was at 15:13 ----------

I know, it's a tricky problem. That's why the govt has made a hash of it so far......:(

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

It's her choice, do workfare in return for benefits or work at the museum for no benefits.

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Ah, so you don't mean 'unemployable' as in 'lacking the skills required to become employed', but rather 'unemployed'.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

By 'unemployable' I mean those without the basic skills/training/inclination to do any sort of skiled work and the drive to actually better themselves or find any sort of work.......'layabouts' if you like......
I have every sympathy for the unemployed who are trying to find a job........though when I was in that situation I went and worked for McD's till I found something better......

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

We have a national minimum wage now.
it's there to protect people from working for peanuts or their dole money only.

would you work 39hrs for £71

so why should an 'unemployed' person?

how many hours would you be prepared to work for, for £71?

why does anyone think that it's ok to exploit the unemployed.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

The forcing bit looks to be scrapped yes but you can still ask to be put on an unpaid placement in a workplace via the work programme.

4-7 hours in my line of work. Based on the average £10-£15ph.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Well lets make several points on this 'work for free' scheme by this awful coalition, l have been under several schemes when l was unemployed and now my son has had to go through it.

The governments pay these companies to take these unemployed people on, in the hope it will give them full time work, well it doesn't. I went to an interview for a so called 'scheme employer' they told me up front that l would not get a job BUT l had to do it or l would lose my benefit.

Many companies have pulled out of the scheme due to protesters outside there branches, this l agree with entirely. All companies are involved and it is wrong and it is slave labour.

My son has been forced to work for some famous brands on the High Street, he is disabled, and he was treated appallingly by the management, he worked there for 'work experience' and did it for TWO weeks.

Instead of insisting on this Free work, the coalition have got to create employment, the only people making money out of us and the Government is job agencies.

You go to any Job Centre and 9/10 the jobs available are through Job Agencies, which make money out of us.

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Yes, if there was no other work avaliable. That shows that I'm willing and able to work and makes it easier for me to get my next better paid job.....and so on.
I have done this and it works......McD's->Nationwide->Homebase->Chandos Records (warehouse), getting training along the way.......each time I changed jobs I got a job paying more.

See above

To get a 'decent' job? Quite a few.....

Why do some unemployed think its ok to exploit the taxpayer?

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The forcing bit will not be scrapped ,that has been upheld in todays judgement as it was in the original appeal last year .What is wrong is the ESE regulations governing the schemes and applied by the DWP are wrong and so need to be re done

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/newsroom/press...wp022-13.shtml

The full judgement is here paras 63-68

http://www.judiciary.gov.uk/Resource...tary-state.pdf

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Why do some think it's OK to exploit the unemployed?

Not everyone who is unemployed is long term unemployed and I don't see why anyone who has paid their taxes whilst working should be treated like **** when they are made redundant.:mad:

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

You are quite right :tu:
All my musings are about the long term 'unemployables'

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Exactly right ,trouble is that no matter how many times that is clarified some on here take it that all unemployed are being criticised

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

To me its very cruel that the Unemployed are treated so badly, a large majority of the unemployed, have become so by fault of there own.

They are treated as a number by the JC's, and should not be regarded as cheap labour by companies out to make a quick buck. It should be the government that invest in this country to bring employment to the unemployed.

The biggest insult that l have ever had was speaking to a JC advisor, who said l wasn'trying hard enough to find a job - despite having THREE interviews in the same week and 25 letters of rejection - the work l was being offered was by getting the interviews myself and NOT going through the job Centre, that didn't have anything for me.

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Because all unemployed are being criticised and made to feel they are a burden on society and most of them are not they are people who through no fault of their own find themselves unemployed and are stuggling because the area they live in was the area that lost some industry. What made this wrong was the threat aspect of it, as if you ASKED most unemployed to do some community work a few hours a week it might shock some of you to learn they would do it. Hell i took a training position because it paid a tenner more a week it cost me fifteen to do it but most unemployed do want to work and are happy to spend time in work related activities if they cannot get a job.

Honestly the way some on here preach the only thing they make clear is how long it is since they had to look for work and jump through the hoops that you have to to get a job. I have only stopped looking for work in the last year and a half because i had to be honest with myself that i couldn't do even a part time job anymore. While i was on jsa i was part of a bunch we all signed on on the sameday and i still remember to this day the longface that hit them one by one as we did our rounds of the boards only to find when we picked a card or ten that all of them were gone and the same constant excuse "oh that card should have been taken down".

Some of you need to stop implying that all or even a sizable minority of unemployed people do not want to work because your wrong though i doubt any of you will ever concede that. Also the rhetoric around this debate needs to come back to a more adult and reasonable tone because why would a firm give a job to someone longterm unemployed when they constantly hear that anyone who is longterm unemployed is workshy.

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whats the legal implication what hoban comments. Been on telly tonight on the 6 oclock news he going ignore the court ruling has no intentions stopping them.

Surely that illegal and contempt of court should be jailed. If business or individual ignored the courts carried on surly would be summoned and jailed.

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You've clearly never shopped at Poundland... :D

---------- Post added at 18:32 ---------- Previous post was at 18:28 ----------

:tu:

Well you see by doing that people can deflect the argument into one of blind prejudice against an entire group as opposed to that proportion (large or small) who deliberately and cynically abuse the system and ought to be dealt with because they make is so much harder for the genuine to claim the support they're rightly entitled to and rebuild their lives.

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

who's hoban ?:confused:

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

I don't think you meant that.Shouldn't the unemployed be the ones who try to bring employment to themselves? I have always felt that finding a job is up to me, not the govt :confused:

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:44 ----------

I don't think that the general tone of this thread backs up your statement there. But there are plenty here who seem to be claiming just that......

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

seems we are dying breed:(

When i was young the stigma of being unemployed and not bothering to look for work ,any work ,was terrible .It forced people to get out the house and physically walk around any potential employer and ask them for a job ,even do a days work for free to show you could do the job .Now people expect the government to do all that for them ,they expect that firing off a few cv's is all they have to do .

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

mark hoban mp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hoban

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Have you seen how arrogant the DWP are on the news?

how can it all be for the benefit of the unemployed, when it's quite clear that he's against them by what he says. and the stance in how he says it?

they all have this thing where they say "the taxpayer"
(the tax payer vs the unemployed)

they hate the unemployed. they're ****.
it's all coming out now :)

Re: Unpaid workschemes are illegal
 

Mark Hoban MP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Hoban

Was responding about the court hearing. Whether he was speaking on his own belief or on behalf of the govenment I dont know.

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I think what he was saying was that the schemes will continue as they are not illegal ,that has already been decided in the ECHR.What is unlawful is the regulations the governement use underpinning the schemes ,so make the regs lawful to satisfy the courts and they will continue