BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Too late i moved my BB to sky last month ,the speed management was absolutely ridiculous ,3-4mg usually for £54 a month with the cheapest phone deal

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Well Sky doesnt shape anything so Sky is even better than BT

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I was almost excited there 'till I realised I am on option 3.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I know, it's great and so much cheaper :)

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Good news for BT customers :)

Is it just Sky and BT that have no speed limiting or traffic management? Maybe Plusnet too?

Would be nice if there was an easy way to quickly see and compare ISP's in those respects.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Plusnet use STM and QoS

http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/caps.htm

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Some more coverage:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...ts-prices.html

“Customers are now much more aware of the terms of their broadband service, and are questioning why limits are in place,” said Baliszewski. Download limits and fair usage policies, etc, are becoming unpopular, especially as household data consumption is growing all the time. A truly unlimited broadband package is the only option for customers who want to fully enjoy the wide variety of content available to them over the internet.”

John Petter, managing director of BT’s Consumer division, said: “We believe we have boosted our broad bandoffering by moving our best broadband deals to totally unlimited. Customers told us that they wanted to be able to enjoy catch-up TV, streamed films and other bandwidth-eating applications without having to worry about going over their limit or being slowed down by their ISP.”

It's a great move from BT. More and more people are forming the opinion that a truly unlimited, unshaped and consistent broadband connection is much better than having speed that’s heavily managed.

I wonder how Virgin will react. Hopefully they'll listen to their customers and relax their traffic management policies.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

No they don't for their Unlimited product, and this has been discussed to death previously. They use a 'QoS like' priority setup on your downstream but no STM.

Bit surprised that Qtx can't remember ;)

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Thanks for the link, really useful! Hope it continues to be updated.

Was aware of the QoS on Plusnet

---------- Post added at 18:03 ---------- Previous post was at 17:47 ----------

I do remember the conversation but was questioning if Plusnet could be added to the list as they will slow down certain traffic when the network is busy. So they are not totally unmanaged like BT and Sky.

The problem is that virgin have made people very wary of wording these days due to having got away with the Unlimited claim for their broadband when they have multiple different limits. Plusnet isn't unmanaged and unlimited, just unlimited.

Still unclear from Craigs link if there are specific services from other isps which are truly unmanaged and unlimited as the sections seem to cover all the services offered by an isp. So not 100% sure if it is just Sky and BT.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

For the umpteenth time, they do not "slow down certain traffic when the network is busy". Only in the event of equipment failure will they prioritise traffic within their network, not in normal day to day operation. I'd rather hope that other Unlimited providers had similar contigency plans...

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Maybe prioritise traffic based on values if congestion occurs would have been a better way for me to say it. Still traffic interfering though, so different to BT and Sky.

Any ISP would wish it could say it was unlimited and unmanaged, so far only two have had the confidence to do that. Plusnet would have done the same if they could, which is why in the last conversation I pointed out that I thought this was a lack of confidence in their network once more customers were onboard. There is no other reason I can think of that they didn't just do the same as Sky and BT

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

And that would still be wrong... I'm not going to rehash the same discussion you started last time. You clearly don't understand the approach Plusnet are taking or the benefits that it gives.

The reason was explained many times in the previous thread and on the Plusnet blog... Time will tell whether they got it right :)

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

QoS is traffic prioritisation...but I feel the same about going over it again. I do understand the benefits of it on a network under strain. Plusnet doesn't get to go on the Uber ISP list though due to it.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

That's not what it's for though! Read the blog again!!!

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Even Plusnet say they traffic manage in that article. I see where you are coming from but it changes nothing in relation to BT being the only other totally limitless and net neutral broadband after their announcement today.

---------- Post added at 20:17 ---------- Previous post was at 20:08 ----------

The blog article clearly has plusnet saying they traffic manage. Your original reply in this thread which started this conversation was quoting Craig saying they traffic manage and claiming they don't. Now you have linked to plusnet saying they traffic manage. So I'm not sure why goalposts are moving

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Goalposts firmly fixed where they were - Plusnet's management of traffic to implement beneficial prioritisation is not Subscriber Traffic Management aka STM.

We'll have to agree to differ, but I think it's important for readers who may stumble across this in the future to get the message that Plusnet's Unlimited service has no speed limits and no download limits!

The proof of the approach will be if/when BT or Sky customers complain that their video streaming performance is affected by their kids downloading huge games. If Plusnet's solution is working as advertised it won't be a problem for their customers...

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Subscriber traffic management being different from traffic management is wordplay in the same way as virgin broadband being unlimited...

You are right in that we will have to disagree and the future will be the proof of pudding. If Sky or BT got congested in the future then we will see if they continue their trend of upgrading equipment instead of relying on cheap workarounds to avoid upgrades, which is what plusnet have done and thus in advance shown us how they intend to deal with future congestion ;)

---------- Post added at 20:50 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

Think its a good idea on budget isp's by the way, I'm not knocking it.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

It's not a budget ISP though. It's BT with a different look and feel?

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

and different prices... cheaper ones.... budget ones

---------- Post added at 21:13 ---------- Previous post was at 21:13 ----------

This

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Nonsense - STM is a method of deliberately degrading a subscriber's service when they exceed a download threshold. Nothing like Plusnet's traffic management.

Google would suggest that the term originates from Cisco CMTS systems. If Craig wasn't referring to this then he shouldn't have said "STM", especially on this board!

Really? Doesn't look like "cheap workarounds" to me...

And that one line confirms that you still don't understand what their management process is for! :banghead:

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Well virgin dont throttle torrents, they set them as low priority, so does that mean Virgin are truely unlimited?

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I do, just looking at the full picture. Companies have got good at reducing what they offer yet making it seem they do it for the customers benefit (or making customers blame other customers) or sugar coat it in some other way. Not saying that is the case here but I wouldn't take anything ANY ISP says at face value

---------- Post added at 21:35 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Virgin do throttle torrents and newsgroups. Just more problematic throttling SSL/encrypted torrent and news traffic so that is a way to avoid the throttling.

The fact VM has data limits within set hours before slowing all your traffic is one limit that shows it is not unlimited.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

?????? Goal post moving ?????? What's Virgin got to do with this discussion?

P2P is slowed down aka Throttled BTW and they,as you well know, slow down all traffic when you download too much...

http://www.virginmedia.com/images/KF...100Mb800px.jpg

---------- Post added at 21:42 ---------- Previous post was at 21:37 ----------

But that's precisely what you have been saying!

If it's now changing to you think there may be other motives then don't you think it's a bit presumptious to accuse a provider of not delivering what they say they will when you have no evidence to the contrary?

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Plusnet have not reduced what they have offerered is what I meant. Sugar coating their traffic management is a matter of opinion. My opinion is that BT and Sky are confident enough in their network to not need to fiddle with traffic but Plusnet are not as they do fiddle. So plusnet should not get the same status as the other two who are the ONLY traffic neutral isp's in the country.

Nothing more to say on this. Just respect to BT for following sky's example. It may force VM to do the same although I don't see their network handling it at present

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

But if its bt why can't they do the same as bt?

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Because Plusnet != BT

Just because Plusnet are owned by BT it doesn't make them the same company. They run as seperate entities with their own, discreet, products, competing in the same marketplace.

This isn't a unique setup - Just look at the car industry for example?

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

All openreach based isp's have their own network beyond BT's openreach part as I understand it. So they have to manage that and their connections to the rest of the internet. VM congestion sometimes happens at LINX which is one of the main places isp's connect to the rest if the world.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Oh dear, another one for Ofcom to add to the list then:

• Unlimited - Download as much as you like but your speed may be throttled
• Truly Unlimited - Download as much as you like with no speed reduction (apart from the natural bottlekneck that is the low speed link from the ISP to the user). ISPs may use QoS type systems to optimise this link and provide the best service for their customer.
• Really and truly Unlimited (Honest) - Download as much as you like with no speed reduction (apart from the natural bottlekneck that is the low speed link from the ISP to the user). ISPs are not allowed to touch the traffic at all so if all falls apart for a user due the their own link being saturated, tough!

;)

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Virgin should never have been allowed to use the unlimited term after it introduced traffic management. Has made broadband ads misleading and confusing ever since. If network geeks argue over the meaning then what hope does Jo Average have?

With your last post Ferret, I think we have the first mutual agreement, even if in jest :)

Plusnet fibre is still the best choice out of the other isp's for an average user who is not interested in a tv package imo. I can see a lot of casual users taking up TalkTalk fibre for the price but its not going to be as reliable.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

This seems to be the industry standard now, although it doesnt match up with the English Dictionary definition

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Not to mention the different definitions in the mobile data market too.

Note to ASA and Ofcom....read a dictionary!

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I think VM are now at risk from a ASA ruling.

Usually the ASA is leniant when the ruling would punish several isp's, but now we have gone from most people been on a shaped connection to really only talk talk and VM left. If talk talk follow suit I can forsee a joint complaint to the ASA from sky and BT about VM been unlimited with traffic management and the ASA may well uphold it.

---------- Post added at 03:40 ---------- Previous post was at 03:35 ----------

They not using the same backhaul, its just owned by BT, and if you check craig's ping site most plusnet graphs are seeing some peaktime congesiton whilst BT ones are not. So from what I can see the higher priced BT services are meaning something. Plus plusnet are still classifying traffic on the network level, they just stating they dont expect it to ever kick in on prioritisation. They removed the hard throttles but still classify the traffic.

BT and sky dont classify traffic. (for new customers on BT).

---------- Post added at 03:43 ---------- Previous post was at 03:40 ----------

I agree plusnet will be tempting, especially as its a cheap way to get a proper static ip as well. Most FTTC isp's that offer static ip's are expensive.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Will be interesting to see how and if Virgin Media respond to BT.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I doubt they will change much, still havent seen any result of the traffic management trial which has been going on for a couple of months

To be honest, they will probably just put emphasis on "unlimited" in their marketing

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

And if you were a senior member of the VM Marketing, Engineering, or Strategy departments, your comment may have a basis in reality.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

They won't offer a similar service. As much as their core network is supposed to be up o the job of more traffic, the local nodes and peering/transit points are not.

I don't think Virgin will react in any way to be honest. Might announce something new and release it 18 months later going by their usual advertising tricks. Might just release to the public Smartcall that they announced 3 months ago.

Whatever Virgin do its not going to be impressive or even comparable to BT's Unlimited headline.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

And if you understood English, you would understand that "I doubt" and "probably" was merely speculation

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

And l gather you are privy to Virgins boardroom and future plans then?.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Carl Waring, what have you done with Denphone? Your input to this discussion was what exactly?

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Please tell us then

I gather you dont know either :rolleyes:

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

FFS, How old are you all ? Stop acting like children.

If you dont have anything useful to add to this discussion, I suggest you refrain from posting.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Several posts removed for being not only off topic but indulging in the childish behaviour that Paul M posted about yesterday.
Kindly stick to the topic and stop the baiting,flaming and trolling.
Kindly use the ignore function if you cannot adhere to these suggestions.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

According to the point of this thread, BT don't shape anything now either?

Apparently their product details page now indicates no shaping or management of any form, so I don't quite get what this "generic overall traffic management applied at peak times" is about? Doesn't make sense when BT claim "we won't place any speed restrictions no matter how much you upload or download, even at peak times "

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:10 ----------

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I can confirm glasnost now shows my connection as clean.

Also some reported on tbb BT were also throttling cloud service (including BT cloud) so I tetsed that also and was full speed clean.

Tests were done in evening peak.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Putting all discussions about plusnet etc aside as this thread is about BT's Infinity product and it's recent lifting of all "caps" "STM" whatever you wish to call the management system. As Chrys reports above the Glasnost test shows no shaping whatsoever. I don't know if he only ran the P2P test or the others (there are several tests you can perform) but other BT users have reported the same.

Some have said this was done in response to Sky and it may well be so but it certainly leaves Virgin on the back foot and what response will they come out with especially now that they are/will be under new ownership? Only time will tell.

Apparently this is the first ever post I've made on this forum so hello to all!

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Could it simply be a rate limiting Qos qas ???? :)

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

"generic overall traffic management applied at peak times" Is basically a buffer for BT. It should never kick in as they have the infrastructure to handle it ATM (as the customer base increases it can be expected to change). IIRC each Infinity cab has a 2.5Gb fibre connection to the exchange. The cab also has a finite number of connections.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Much obliged :)

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

No probs Pabs, also IIRC the cab is limited to 288 connections (I'll check on that and get back later) so doing the math on users the bandwidth should be there.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Depends on the size of the cab, there are two sizes, 128-line and 288 line. Last I knew the cabs started with ~4x1Gb symmetric for larger ones and they have up to 28 fibres they can light up if needed.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I only ran the torrent test.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

I like the piece on the BT website:

"•Many other internet service providers put restrictions on certain types of internet traffic or a limit on how much you can download or upload which means that at peak times of day, customers may experience slower speeds.

•We don't think that's a good enough experience for BT customers so we have made all of our unlimited products 'Totally Unlimited'.

•'Totally Unlimited' means that you will be able to enjoy catch-up TV, streamed films, online gaming and other bandwidth-eating applications, without ever being slowed down by traffic management controls."

Personally this is the kind of commitment I'd like to see from all ISP's. It's a bold statement which appeals to me and my internet usage.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

All at a time when VM change their traffic management policy as well.:D

As Openreach are to begin rolling out FTTP on demand from the end of the month (it could take ISP's longer to offer it) it shows the infrastructure is there.

It certainly will leave VM on the back foot as Multicast for TV is also either now or becoming available for ISP's also. Sky would be able to give a good offering with that in place nationwide!

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

Got to admit it makes Virgins policy look backwards. If this puts pressure on ISP's to go totally unlimited in an effort to compete for customers, great news for us as consumers! No denying Virgin have fantastic speeds but they ruin it with all their restrictions.

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

And their blatant disregard for capacity management

Re: BT Retail makes its unlimited products totally unlimited
 

The difference is that Openreach have the capacity and use slightly different rules to alleviate congestion.

With VM it takes months of planning for a reseg or whatever relief is needed, Openreach can do it in days if needed depending on the retailing ISP's requirements. Don't forget it is BT wholesale that supply the product that Openreach supply (on a residential basis) no matter what may have been said elsewhere otherwise they would be in breach of their remit.