Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20996278

Not only did the refuse to listen, they demonised those who spoke out against their policies and they're still doing it.

Odd how they only seem to keen to listen when they're not in power eh? :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Next the Vatican will announce that the Pope believes in God.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

So basically he has nothing to say ,no new ideas ,no new strategies ,just a bunch of baloney about some new rules for private landlords

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

He is doing something that Labour leaders are very very good at

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Sadly there are those gullible enough to believe the BS even though we heard similar promises and apologies from Bliar and Brown at each election they contested. Same old BS, same old Labour.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...ge/4519863.stm

:rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Here let me fix you post :LOL:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Sirius & Osem, are you a double act?

I can never tell you 2 apart. :D

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

No we both just see Labour for the Muppet's they are :LOL:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

It's easy if you take the rose tinted specs off. :D

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Clearly Miliband's still feeling apologetic for 13 years of his party ignoring what he now seems to think were legitimate concerns about mass immigration, especially the numbers of low skilled migrants. So folks, don't worry, it'll all be different if/when Miliband's in charge... :rolleyes:

For those with a strong stomach or rose tinted specs and a penchant for Labour BS you can view the broadcast here:

http://labourlist.org/2013/03/labour...-work-for-all/

http://labourlist.org/2013/03/is-lab...ete-solutions/

Despite the apparent lack of credible stats on the issue, I reckon he's got wind of a major problem emanating from Romania and Bulgaria and needs to be seen to be concerned about it. Whether this 'concern' would translate into effective action after a Labour victory is quite another thing however. Labour have a track record for talking tough on such issues before elections and reverting to type after.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Seeing that Labour are socialists and therefore controlling and Anti-Libertarian by nature they will control the population with their policies just the same as they've always done.
They know what's best for you,me and everybody else... no dissent allowed. :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

I don't think it works like that. You don't have to be authoritarian to be a socialist. It's just people have different degrees and areas in which they think the state should be involved in. I.E I would say the state should provide a social safety net, medical care and so on but should support freedom of expression and stay out of people's private lives.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

True, but most socialists become more and more authoritarian once they get into power.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

I think most politicians have that trend. This Government promised a Freedom bill and reducing the erosion of civil liberties. Now they're still pushing for a database of all your internet and phone activity, were considering blocking sites deem to be pornographic, are passing a bill to allow more use of secret courts, and are talking about leaving the European Convention on Human Rights.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Well,actually we agree then because socialists are controlling,but to differing degrees,but controlling non-the-less.
Saying that the state should provide a safety net and Healthcare to me means giving away control,e.g. if you are dependent on the state they control your life to an extent.Labour likes to control people via their welfare programs and general philosophy that government knows best,when in fact people know themselves what's best for them.

Socialism in all it's forms and or degrees of implementation leads to dictatorship and the loss of freedom. History has shown this time and again. Same for fascism....
in fact the only difference between Nazis and Commies is the colour,and one could argue Commies are actually worse than Nazis...

---------- Post added at 14:38 ---------- Previous post was at 14:37 ----------

Yup,they love to control!

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Erm ok. Where exactly does the centre-left stop and where does socialism start then.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Probably at the point that the party typically finishes it's conference by singing 'keep the red flag flying'?

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

very good question.... which I have no answer to. :)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Governments are controlling. It's not unique to socialism. It's just which areas they decide to get involved in and which they don't. The right in America may want to get out of healthcare and social security but they still seem to want a lot of police and a large army. A lot also want to get involved in abortion, schools and sex education.

This isn't a right or left issue. It's a authoritarian/libertarian issue and despite what people think they're not monopolised by the right or the left. When the Government gets involved in a area you think they should keep out of then there is a temptation to deem it authoritarian. It's idiotic.

Also "people know what's best for them?", so what? It's just a meaningless soundbite. They're allowed to vote and they can vote for what they think it's best for them. A lot of people think a state that provides healthcare for all is best for them.


Socialism is a rather broad definition of an even broader group of people. There are degrees and variations of socialism. It's utterly moronic to say they love to control.

I think some people on this forum need to step back a bit. I've seen this so often now it's getting tiresome. Not only are the left tree-hugging, corrupt, economic-illiterate, hypocrites that want to protect the right of terrorists now we're also a bunch of mini-Hitlers.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Spot on...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

But you do have to admit that socialism seems to do the 'control' thing 'better'

well the left was responsible for over 100 million deaths in the last century.....so while the left may not monopolise this, it stands head and shoulders above the right when it comes to exerting raw power over a population.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:07 ----------

They so often are :shrug:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Agreed!

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

It's just nowhere near that simple. It's hardly something I can debunk without writing paragraph upon paragraph. I would just that being left wing doesn't correspond to being authoritarian and the problem with Nazi Germany and Communist Russia was not left wing policies but genocidal acts. I don't recall genocide being an idea embraced by the left.

They're really not.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Spot on Sir.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

You can't debunk it. It's a matter of historical fact. If you can stand to have your cherished beliefes shattered then read The Black Book of CommunismRead the book.....

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

No,it's not unique to socialism... what is unique to socialism is however the need to control it all,socially and economically. Funny how quickly people forget how controlling Labour was,and of course always has been.
I don't disagree with you,however left-leaning governments are much more controlling.
Deciding what's best for oneself in one's life is a 'meaningless sound-bite'? Now I've heard it all...:p: ;)
I don't need the government to dictate to me what I can or can't do or what is politically correct or not.Being able to vote doesn't mean that government shouldn't be as stripped back as necessary. Far from being a sound-bite it is to me the very essence of my understanding of government and it's relationship with the population. I know what I need,not the government. If you however like to be told what to do than that is up to you. :)

and yes,maybe some people do think government provided healthcare is the best.... Personally I think a system half/half is ideal,so insurance based but government regulated. Lived under such a system and it beats the NHS hands-down,but that is just my experience and opinion.

No,it isn't moronic but born-out by historic facts... yes,socialism is a broad group of people but the goal of socialism is Communism,and what that leads to is well known.
I knew you would re-act in this way,I was actually going to apologise pre-emptively but didn't... :angel:
I should clarify that the goal of Socialism is ultimately Communism,or should I rather say Socialism is the slippery road that leads there,imo. That leads to atrocities and a state of terror and suffering.

But no,I'm not calling you a Mini-Hitler Damien... :dig:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Okay, talk about weird... If the goal of socialism is communism, then why have socialism in the first place?

It seems to me that people are just playing silly semantic games here. It's perfectly possible to support the notion that those who earn more pay in a bit more (but get to keep more as well), without hankering for a world where everyone earns the same and the state controls everything. And anyone who is even going to suggest different needs to have his head examined.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

As RamRod said,you can't debunk it.... left-wing,communist governments are the most murderous of them all.

Stalin 20 million + some say it could be even more.
Mao 50 million +
Khmer Rouge 2.5 million
Kim Il-Sung 1.6 million

and there's more....

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

That isn't unique to socialism. There are degrees and variations of socialism, there isn't a single form of it that is easy to define.

Also it's not hard to forget how controlling Labour were because this Government aren't much different, despite being mostly Conservative.

It is a meaningless sound bite. It's up there with 'hardworking families' or other such bumper sticker slogans. It doesn't really mean anything. You don't build the roads you use, the schools you attended, the policy who protect you. Living in a society means these matters are pooled across many and the only difference is a disagreement where the state should get involved and where it should not.


Err no.

---------- Post added at 16:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

Can't think why people think this forum is increasingly alienating anyone who isn't right wing....

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Because Socialists realise that Communism can't be attained in one fell swoop and try to introduce it gradually,chipping away at capitalism and private ownership bit by bit.
Of course there are those who thought you could jump straight ahead to Communism.... the results are well known and have been mentioned already.
In a Gulag,preferably? :p:

just kidding,I actually agree with you.... not with the head-examining bit,though. ;)

Of course tax needs to be levied for defence,policing,some social security,building roads and some infrastructure. Where I begin to object is this whole Bingo wheel of do-gooderism and 'giving this group more than the others because they may need it' nonsense.
By the by,I explicitly include Industry in my call for welfare reform.... the way we prop up Industries and grant them subsidies when they have enough money themselves is ridiculous.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

No they don't! There are plenty of Scandinavian countries, European countries, with varying socialist structures that aren't communist and show no apparent movement into becoming so. It's like saying anyone on the right really wants to become fascists.


Then it's all a matter of degrees.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Didn't Marx describe socialism as the steps towards communism and the soviets described themselves as socialists working towards communism.

That doesn't mean the goal is communism in all cases (certainly not from UK socialists) but I offer historic context for the reference.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

There may be a historical context in which it is true, but that's not the context of the current debate, which appears to be that everyone whose political leanings are not to the right of the centre, is a socialist and therefore a communist in waiting who must therefore support an all-controlling state that is partial to genocide.

I would suggest that this position is a tad removed from reality.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

I agree.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Really? You mean going from a government that was urinating our futures up the wall and doling it out to all and sundry is no different from a government that is actually trying to get us out of the deep dung we're in? Hmm,we'll have to agree to disagree.


Funny you should mention roads,schools and Law Enforcement... classic areas where I believe the government should be present and I happily pay tax for. But then I mentioned these examples before.

It's the meddling that goes beyond the core remit of government,and which left-wing governments love to indulge in the most,which I am against. What I eat,wether I smoke or not,drink,drugs,prostitution,red-tape in housing,business,Industry, etc.

Gender main-streaming,morality that the left loves to go on and on about,political correctness and the constant harping on about how the privileged should sacrifice whilst stuffing their own pockets.

Thank you,but I know what my freedom is and I value it and to me it isn't an empty sound-bite. If it is to you than I guess you must be happy being told what to do,think and feel? If so, good for you. :)

Err,yes.Ever been to a Communist country and spoken to those who live in it? The teaching is universal,from what I have been told there,that socialism is the stepping stone to Communism. If you look into the ideology it's obvious,too.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Probably for radical interpretations of it, but most people are giant hypocrites and just pick out the bits they like anyway.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

No. We're not talking about competence. We're talking about control. This Government wants a database of all your communications activity and wants secret courts. This despite their lack of 'socialism'.

Porn ban explored by this government, database by both governments, minimum price for drink by both governments. It's hard to see what is only left wing about this.

Also the remit of Government is what you can vote for and people with a different opinion on that from you are not commie-nazis angling for a oppressive genocide state.

Again that isn't what I said. Nice strawman though. Are you just reading off Alex Jones' website?

Oh I didn't know you spoke to someone from a communist country. The only problem is I went to America where they're capitalist and someone there told me that capitalism is the first step to fascism and, if you look it up, it's obvious. Also this guy was an capitalist .

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

I also agree.Socialism isn't communism anymore than every Tory is a right wing fascist toff determined to keep the serfs in place. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

No??!!! :confused: ;)

There's a few round here who'd disagree with that. :)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Now now, you have to remember that Fascism is left-wing. Daniel Hannan says so, and he trumps Wikipedia.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Daniel Hannan? :confused: He was the guy who went on Glenn Beck during the Obamacare stuff to slag off the NHS. :mad:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Dunno. One of your fellow mods appears to think he's a credible source on this subject. :shrug:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Oh that. Nah he's not here and he does backs up his arguments so let's not get into that.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Yeah. Thing is though: this discussion is a carbon copy of the other one. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Glad to see you've been paying attention ...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Some things stand out. Must be the comedy value ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Erm.....taken from here: http://www.marxmail.org/
Is this instructional piece: http://www.marxmail.org/faq/socialism_and_communism.htm

More here: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th..._and_communism

That's nice, huge difference.....therefore :upyours: @ socialism & communism........oh, and they left out the bit about marching the pre-revolution, pre-existing, educated people into the forest to be shot (like my grandfather)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

You missed out the paragraph above the bit you quoted...

;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

But again that's just overly simplistic. Communism is not Socialism. I don't think there are many people, at least in the west, that advocate public ownership of all goods and services produced by the economy. It's just wrong.

There isn't Socialism or not socialism. There are variations of socialism and degrees of it. I mean we have Governments in Europe who are considered 'socialist' that do not fit that definition of socialism. We ourselves have socialised healthcare and we have the benefit and welfare system, including state pensions, these too can be described as socialist.

This thread is just nuts. People don't fall into extremes like that. You know this because if you consider yourself right wing that doesn't mean you believe fascism is a good thing or that the BNP should be elected. We're not robots downloading our political beliefs from chairman mao. It's insane.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

This of course is why it's important that fascism is left-wing ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

They don't do this in France*, or here, or Sweden, or Norway. These were authoritarian, nasty regimes. They're not indicative of socialist policies.

*Well the French Revolution they did kind of do this but that was about revolution against a controlling elite (who weren't, bizarrely, socialists) .

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Perhaps we should draw a distinction between socialists and full on Marxists.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

But, but, but, but.......

Doing that would mean things aren't merely 'black or white' or allow all-encompassing one size fits all simplistic statements to be made......;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Herr Hitler agreed with you:

As quoted here: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/da...ts-of-fascism/

But of course this article was written by a right-wing Tory MEP so it must be wrong. :dozey:

And when Hitler self-identifies as a socialist he must be wrong too. Wikipedia says so.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

So we are all agreed that there is a problem defining socialism & communism and where one becomes the other...
This problem has been pointed out by our left wing leaning members and has bogged the thread down nicely. ;) :D
This reminds me of the times we discussed the perils of unfettered immigration and it's effects on the social fabric of Britain/England......the same thing happened there as our left wingers immediately challenged us to define what Britishness/Englishness is......thereby bogging down the discussion and shifting it away from the real topic ;)
I don't think it's a deliberate ploy, I suspect it's a left wing knee jerk reaction to an uncomfortable topic. :D

More reading:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Tyranny-Cl...mm_kin_title_0
:D

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Hitler, or at least the Nazi party, were strongly anti-communist as well. People can self-identify however they want but it doesn't mean they represent it well. Again though the problem with the Nazi party was not a belief in nationalisation or workers rights. It was the genocide of a race of people and their desire to conquer a lot of Europe. These weren't liberal or socialist policies taken to their extreme conclusion, they were an extreme form of totalitarianism and anti-Semitism. I am not really sure that if Hitler had a more nuanced view of the limitations of the state in public life they he wouldn't have committed the Holocaust. Frankly when people have reached the stage where they're systematically killing millions of people then they have long past any relevance when talking about moderate left/right politics. No one on the left that I know wants to set up concentration camps and I can't see which policy is a natural precursor to that.

I don't think authoritarianism/totalitarianism are limited to left or right. I think they exist on a different spectrum which people on either the left or right can veer towards or away from.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

The article agrees with me (and Hitler it would seem)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Meanwhile, back on the subject of Labour now realising their mistakes and suddenly listening after a decade and more of doing the opposite.... ;)

Heard Yvette Cooper today on Radio 4 talking about their plans for immigration and using the opportunity to bash the current govt. on the minimum wage, which she says must be addressed as part of the immigration question, with prosecution being the required sanction. She came out with a nice statistic too - there have been no minimum wage prosecutions in the last 2 years she exclaimed! Sounds awful doesn't it? Gives the impression that there were sooooooo many more when her crew were running the show. So how many minimum wage prosecutions were there during Labour's tenure? It must have been a lot more surely or her statement would be disingenuous wouldn't it? So, thousands then? Hundreds maybe? Dozens surely? Well, according to the Low Pay Commission, there have been only 7 since the minimum wage was introduced in 1999. So none in the last 2 years during a major recession. Not so surprising then? Rather puts Cooper's assertions in a different light I reckon...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

What, innumerate bombast? I wonder who she picks that up from. :scratch:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Dunno, some very dodgy types amongst their ranks. They all seem to suffer from selective amnesia and talk a load of Balls most of the time...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Ms Cooper especially. She gets it at the breakfast table. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Definitions are important. Just because it may be difficult to find a single point where a extreme form of socialism becomes communism doesn't mean they're not different. The world isn't that black and white and that isn't a left-wing trick to make things difficult, it's just how the world works. Things are complicated.

People were saying people on the left love to control and that the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. Left = socialism = communism = Stalin seems to be the formula that people are trying to advocate. If you're on the left these are the things that you do or the consequences of what you believe.

That is nasty and it is wrong. It's a sick way to characterise people who disagree with you.

The "left wing leaning members" are trying to point that socialism does not mean communism and doesn't have to led to communism. That there are many examples of countries with socialist tendencies that have not succumbed to communism. Also that totalitarianism/fascism is not just the end of the left wing scale but can exist irrespective of the political learnings of the oppressive administration. It's a form of Government control that can be exercised often by people with extremest political views.

In the end those the discussion of the extremes is pointless because no one is really advocating communism here. We're talking about control and as I pointed out towards the start, this government has been just as authoritarian as the last so the notion that it's a Labour trend is simply wrong.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

'Gets it??!!!' :shocked::shocked::shocked: :D

I reckon they deserve eachother tbh.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Yes, in many ways she is full of Balls.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Of course that's not always the case. I completely agree with you there.
However, one should be on guard against communism sneaking in using the thin end of the wedge, so to speak.
A quick google throws out some interesting biographical details about many labour members:
http://pol-check.blogspot.co.uk/2009...ew-labour.html
.......they were (?still are) as red as could be......now one could argue that they were younger then and saw the eror of their ways and turned away from communism/marxism etc., or one could say that, just possibly, they recognised that they wouldn't get to positions of power without 'toning down' their stated ideologies......so they defaulted to socialism. Who knows where their true loyalties still lie?

edit.......
I wonder if a similar quick trawl of conservative mp's backgrounds would produce a similar level of extreme right wing affiliations & memberships in their pasts......I suspect not.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Yes,and they want these things cause they've actually moved to left when it comes to privacy and individual rights.The Tories feel they must be more like Labour to win elections,something they now pay a high price for.


Like I said,the Tories unfortunately are moving more towards the left by entertaining such policies....
You really do have to show me though where I said that people who vote for the left are Commie-Nazis.We were discussing Socialism and and I gave examples of what it can lead to and next you know I've said Labour supporters or Lefties support Genocide,which of course I never did,but nice smear anyway.


There's no need to read off some website... I've heard of Alex Jones but I'm not sure what it is he does or doesn't do. I can't even be bothered to look it up.

My understanding of freedom comes from having had a German step-dad and seeing his Dad,who fought in WW 2, being a complete wreck of a human being and his wife,sons and daughters trying to deal the fallout of that and the misery it has caused in his family.
We had family friends in East Germany whom we visited 3 or 4 times who were one of a very,very few select people who were actually allowed to have their own enterprise,a launderette. I saw the deprivation,how miserable many people were and all the restrictions the state laid upon them with no good reason other than ideology.... the wonders of socialism. I suggest you go visit a socialist state,it'll be an eye-opener.

Oh,and before you come up with the Scandinavian countries again,I'll share something with you.
I've lived in Norway and Germany for a good while,and these countries are quite social,especially Norway.... at least if you look at it from the outside. The difference to Britain is that although the programs are generous their work ethic is almost second-to-none. Being on the dole for no reason is almost despised and the ethic is to work very hard and provide yourself for what you want,and not rely on the state to hand it to you. That is why they can afford such generous state handouts. Their model works because they have a different mentality,and a bit of Oil doesn't hurt either.


funny you should say that,because what we have in America and most of the West isn't really Capitalism but Corporatism. I've said before I'm against handouts to companies as well,and to people only when really in need.
I think all of us could do a lot more to help ourselves and those around us.

---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------

Yep,things are complicated.


Left-leaning,socialist and communist states control more than those with capitalist,Liberal values,FACT.
Also,we would agree that Communism is a form of left-wing ideology,correct? So yes,part of the left are responsible for over 100 million dead.
No,what's nasty,sick and wrong is to see members on this forum playing down the victim's of left-wing policies,of which there are plenty.
No,what the left-wing members are doing is trying to defend the indefensible.
The left love control,always have and always will... sad to see how quickly people forget about Labour's past deeds.

---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------

That's exactly what it is...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

So basically even if a party that is right of centre and they advocate authoritarian policies then they are also left wing. So I can't really ever show an example of a right-wing administration enacting illiberal policies because they'll also be examples of a right-wing government that has moved left. You have again simply tried, wrongly, to equate authoritarian with the left alone. I cannot ever refute that because examples I give of authoritarian regimes on the right will be dismissed as socialism.

Socialist policies tend to concern themselves with the provision of services for citizens at the expense of higher tax. That's quite simplistic but it's generally the case. I haven't seen many socialists who advocate for a police state. Indeed the more liberal organisations in this country are opposed to these measures. Usually they're called 'liberal do-gooders'. It's new to me that liberals are the ones who call for DNA and Internet databases, increased CCTV and secret courts.

Let's look at two examples. David Davies, a Conservative, and George Galloway a far-left liberal. These two agree on almost nothing but what does unite them is opposition to measures such as the Internet Database and ID Cards. This is because whilst their at opposite ends of the traditional left/right spectrum they're at similar ends of the libertarian/authoritarian spectrum.

You can be on the left and a libertarian and be on the right and authoritarian and vise-versa. Authoritarianism is not a result of socialism.

I didn't name you. I said people. It was Ramrod who said the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people.


America is interesting too. They've detained people without trial for years, they've tortured people, they've had wire-taps without warrants, they've reserved the right to kill people abroad. Are they now left-wing too?

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Given your international perspective then, I'm sure that you will also agree that Labour (in essentially a 2 party state) is not necessarily the best or a representative example of left wing politics.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Which victims of which policies?

I want to know which policies exactly are responsible for the murder of 100 million people.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Read the book (the black book of communism), it lists which communist/marxist/maoist 'governments' were responsible for what deaths (and where/when)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Germany is currently home to around 249,000 migrants from Bulgaria and Romania
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-for-that.html

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

:tu:

What you mean it's not only xenophobic, bigoted, Daily Heil reading, little Englanders who're worried about this???!!!! :shocked::shocked::shocked::shocked: :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

They will be here soon thanks to the EU, then they will get the full package, free house, full benefits, child benefits that are sent back to there home country, access to our health care.

And coming soon to a cash point near you free cash machine withdraws via there handy cam and pin logging system.

But hey the supporters of the EU don't mind all that :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Couldn't happen to a nicer country :tu:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

.... and of course any suggestion whatsoever that certain crimes may be prevalent in certain communities is a sure sign of rabid xenophobia... :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

:LOL:

However i say what i see because i live in the real world. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Real world??? You mean the world in which no banana is too bent, a pound is as good as 454g, dead fish aren't thrown away by the tonne and the folks running the show are actually elected??...

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Now your going a little to far in to the world of Alice there :)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Germany is (?was) a lovely place the last time I was there. Great food, friendly people & some beautiful scenery :)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

it's the endless preaching and do-gooder-ism that is slowly eroding people's rights.
Eat less meat
Eco-fascism
constantly introducing new laws and offences that curb people's freedom and rights to self-determination.
Constantly being told how to feel,what to say and how to act. Political correctness,a wonderful tool to control people without ever having necessarily enact any legislation.
I don't like gays... HOMOPHOBE!!!!
I don't want half the population in any given area not speaking English... RACIST!!!!!
maybe people need to look after themselves a bit more.... cold-hearted Capitalist!!!!
I could continue this list ad infinitum,the left loves to smear it's opponents with all sorts of nasty labels in order to control the gullible fools who follow them and their ideology,all in the vain hope of getting a chunk of the pie they couldn't earn themselves,too.
Funny how Socialists,the left and far-left go on and on about the need to share when it is always those who are supposed to share the most who also contribute the most.... it's just as well that lefties never question this all the while the party officials live in splendour and laugh at the gullible fools that follow them. The truth is the vast majority are worse off under socialists,except of course those who profit directly and those in power...

Labour bloated the state to proportions of absolute ridiculousness.... employed thousands upon thousands of people in non-jobs such as diversity co-ordinator,H&S officers and what not. The truth is for Labour it was all about being able to have a bit of the good lifestyle,as well. Let the champagne-corks fly,even better so as it is on somebody else's dime.... who cares? Once the party is over all e need to leave i a note saying: 'There's no money left',and then we can immediately attack the 'nasty party' for actually trying to sort the mess out.....

Best example? Those in power in east Germany were enjoying all sorts of products from the West,and indeed shop in their government district stocked mainly western products,all the while telling East Germans how the west was inferior and their enemy.... lol :dozey:
Please look at socialist states in history and name one that wasn't a police state.That's what socialism leads to in the end,it is always about controlling people,via the police,political correctness,the 'right'diet or otherwise. Socialists always know what's best for you,and much better than yourself,too! :rolleyes:

So Labour didn't suggest everybodies DNA is kept on file,wether guilty or not?
http://southwark-libdems.org.uk/en/a...n-dna-database
so Labour didn't suggest people could be arrested for all offences?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3557266.stm
So Labour didn't create thousands of new criminal offences and filled our prisons to the brim?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ur-918053.html

yeah,lefties are really liberal....

I think you're mixing up your definitions here,the left is almost opposite of being liberal. Liberals love freedom whereas the left hate it because they can't control free people.

No,Galloway opposed this because of his liberal instincts,if he was just far-left he would have supported it. After all,the ID card scheme was dreamed-up by Labour,yes?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...pping-id-cards

just another cool £257 million spent on it,but hey,it's OPM,right? :rolleyes: (other people's money)

no worries.



No,and you have to show me where I suggested such tactics are the preserve of the left....

Labour is indeed the perfect example of left-wing politics.... state control isn't just DNA databases or police surveillance,it's the whole-sale control of thought and what is right or wrong.Anybody who dissents gets shouted down and/or marginalised. Amazing how quickly people forget how oppressive Labour were and how they decided what was 'correct and what wasn't.

just look up Communism and victims of Communism,and look how it developed.Take a look at Socialist states.There you'll find the policies that end up in millions upon millions of people being miserable or dead.

It's funny,I've spoken to a good few people on my visits to East Germany and from conversations amongst the grown-ups I never heard a good thing about their oh-so-benevolent socialist government. (I was just 12 then)


For Britain's sake I hope we get a Tory/UKIP coaltion in 2015,or otherwise Labour will spend the last bit of the money we haven't got. All I ever see and hear in the press leads me to the conclusion that they haven't learned a thing and never will.

That's all. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

I hope for the same.

The way i see it is that if Labour get in they will sign over what is left of this counties independence over to the EU in exchange for a "Top Up loan" and use what is left of this country as collateral on a loan they will never be able to pay back.

We don't need labour or the libs in charge of this country ever again, its been ruined by them already..

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Well I consider Labour authoritarian. Hence why they were disliked by a lot of leftist liberals like Galloway. The thing is the Tories pursue the same types of policies, secret courts, DNA and Internet databases. Yet another example of how authoritarianism is not limited to the left and therefore being 'left' doesn't mean you support increasing laws and erosion of civil liberties.

:rolleyes:

So you can on the left and a liberal. :confused: Which is it?

Oh the irony.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Very nice country indeed,at least to many Brits who've actually been there. ;)

Anyway,what Germany is experiencing now isn't pretty,and the UK will be hit with the same flood of gypsies come the end of 2014... oops,am I allowed to say this? I hope the left will forgive me. ;)

There seem to be swathes of German cities,especially in the Ruhr area,where there are massive problems with Bulgarians and Romanians. Mostly on benefits and not even trying to get on with the locals. Begging,stealing and the back-gardens and streets turned into rubbish dumps.... I hope the wave can be stopped,but I doubt it.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/03/66.jpg

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

I've still not seen a party I could vote for, still I've got some time to think it through I guess.

I WILL vote for someone however, but at the moment they all seem the same.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Coming to a town and city near you very soon :rolleyes:


Thank you EU :rolleyes:

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

:rolleyes:

So you can on the left and a liberal. :confused: Which is it? [/QUOTE]

Yes,he has left and he has liberal tendencies,and his opposition to those measures comes from his liberal leanings.... when it comes to Israel he is left-leaning and thereby anti-semitic in tendency. He can have both instincts in him,just like many people are walking contradictions.


Yes,indeed,considering your support of a political leaning that relies on smear to fight it's enemies.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

It would be funny if it wasn't so silly.

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Yes, he has left and liberal tendencies. So do I by the way. This is because they don't contradict. You can be liberal and left wing. (Actually I would say I am more moderate on economic scale). This is the complex nature of politics where few peoples' ideals can be easily distilled into 'left' and 'right'. I think for example that people who need the social safety net should have that, that universal medical care is a good thing and that we have to pay for such a system from out taxes. That is the cost of living in a society IMO.

However I think you have the right to privacy, that laws should be limited and designed to protect people but maintain a right to freedom of expression. That the Government shouldn't impose moral laws (within reason).

There are probably individual policies I support or oppose that do contradict these broad beliefs but again, this is just one person trying to make sense of a complicated world with complicated problems. I cannot be characterised as 'left', that is just a crux for people incapable of thinking of politics or their opponents in anything other than the most simplistic labels. It's ok for broad statements, i.e Democrats' are left wing and Republicans' are right wing, but it breaks down quite easily upon examination.

It's ironic because that is what you've been doing in this thread. Consistently telling everyone what people on the left, i.e me, thinks and what our motivations are but you don't know me. I don't think I rely on smears to 'fight my enemies', not that I think of people that disagree with me as 'enemies', and I would hope other members on this forum that do think differently than me would vouch for that.

Yet on this thread we've had people describe the left as anything from wanting to control people to people responsible to the deaths of 100 million people. This is not a fair or rational way to describe an entire spectrum of political opinion.

It's no doubt true that people who ascribe to being socialist, or communist, have committed evil acts but as you've conceded previously such evil is not limited to the left. In fact I have argued that these acts represent a desire for control and order that stems from their authoritarianism and not their socialism. Additionally these acts and Governments do not represent the left anymore than the Westboro Baptist Church represents Christianity, Islamic Fundamentalism represent Islam or the BNP represent people concerned about Immigration. We are not automatically responsible for people with whom we share a common faith or political belief.

Anyway this is all me just repeating myself. I don't want to continue this thread because it just makes me angry and I don't like being angry. There are too many topics in Current Affairs that just upset me now so'll I bow out here. ;)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

Ah,what a nice little parting shot straight for the heart,and just before you're bowing out,too.Well done. I thought we were discussing left and left-wing politics,not wether you support genocide,which by the by I never said.
Yep,run like the wind.... instead of getting angry you could of course bring in more arguments? :)

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2013/03/66.jpg

Has anyone counted all the satellite dishes?

Re: Miliband - Labour didn't listen blah blah
 

They're all Freesat dishes Gary. I mean, Sky's the last thing you'd spend your money on if you were trying to scrape together a living on benefits, isn't it?

Either that, or these particular flats were almost entirely occupied by people with a reasonably good disposable income.

Which do you think it is?