[Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

is there an election due in a couple of years because that's usually when politicians bring the issue of European membership to the forefront

"at the next election" does that mean that somewhere buried in the manifesto there will be some reference to possibly getting some obscure piece of EU legislation changed that won't really change anything ?


Maybe the problem is that it is too difficult a question to ask so i thought of a way to do it .get a piece of paper and on that paper write "do you want the UK to remain in the EU" and then put 2 empty boxes on that paper so a small tick can be placed in 1 of them ,then print about 50million of them and distribute to the general populace .simples


Yes dave ,that will do for a start ,of course it is largely ignored anyway by workers and employers and we had almost identical legislation in place in this country before so won't actually make a difference .


http://news.sky.com/story/1034081/vo...oice-on-europe

re: Cameron promises a "real choice" on Europe
 

It's his first attack against UKIP... and it won't be the last. AFAIC the political drift will be away from the main 3 parties towards UKIP, and there is no way he wants to be in a situation where he will need UKIP's backing in government.

re: Cameron promises a "real choice" on Europe
 

Yeah we'll have a choice. We can either vote 'yes' to stay in the EU or we can vote 'No' and be asked again until we get the 'right' answer...

re: Cameron promises a "real choice" on Europe
 

That would get my vote if a party had the balls to do it.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Re: Cameron promises a vote on Europe
 

Problem is though if we left the EU who would the government blame when their ineptitude leads to financial/social disaster ,no longer will they be able to say "we where forced into it by the EU"

---------- Post added at 17:32 ---------- Previous post was at 17:29 ----------

Cheers hugh ,i suppose there is a difference between "real choice" and an actual vote ,in politician speak anyway

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Definitely - if you read the story, he weasel-words around whether there will be an actual vote on in/out of Europe, just waffle on how the Conservatives will be different (therefore being a "real choice", apparently...).

Re: Cameron promises a vote on Europe
 

I think you'll find that has already happened. At the moment the government is frantically spinning and borrowing just to pay the 'leccy bill etc.

The important question to me as a citizen is whether we would recover faster inside or out of the EU.

Re: Cameron promises a vote on Europe
 

The sooner we are out of the EU the sooner we can work out the answer to that question.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

it is true he will give us a real choice, if you vote conservative, labour or libdem you get Europe.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I had said i would not vote at the next election, however i have now decided to give that vote to UKIP and hope it makes a difference.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I might have some of that too.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

:tu:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The Economist had a good article about the benefits to the UK of the European Union a while back: http://www.economist.com/news/leader...ld-be-reckless

Worth a read. We rarely get the case for in the this country and we'll be making a big decision:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Oh great so we get some trade and a few car plants, in return the EU to all intents and purposes control what we can and cannot do as a country. Sorry but i prefer for us to be able to control our own laws not some unelected bureaucrats in Brussels who probably hates us as well in between fiddling his expenses paid for by us. :mad:.

Damien you probably get the drift i hate the EU with every fibre of my soul and would vote if we ever get the chance to get the hell out of it. I feel i am not alone in this regard

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I'd be wary of doing that ,not saying i wouldn't but i would need to know a lot more about the candidates and the skills they could bring to the table .I fell for the smooth talk of Clegg at the last election as a lot of people did ,he promised a lot and sounded like he could make it happen but when it came down to the crunch he was unable to fulfill those promises when he got to power .Now he just looks like he's there to make the numbers up with no real decision making capabilities at all and i would be worried that UKIP would end up the same way

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The three main parties have done nothing to benefit this country, Labour spent all the money and dropped us well and truly in it. The liberals jumped into bed with the conservatives at the first chance they got. The Conservatives have reduced our Armed forces to a point were we could not defend this country against a bunch of boy scouts never mind another army.

between the three of them they have robbed us of money via there expenses and for that i will never trust the three main parties ever again

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Been voting for them for years now, I can see them doing very well next time round.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I agree with all that ,i'm just wary that ukips inexperience in government will show at the first test.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

My big worry is that voting UKIP will simply let Labour back in to finish the job of ruining this country. Let's not forget they had 13 years of parliamentary majority and massive borrowing/spending to sort out many of the issues they're currently blaming the current incumbents for. They have no coherent policies and when they're forced to admit they'd need to make cuts they only do so to sound credible. My feeling is that once again, they'll say anything to get back in power and then just carry on where they left off.

Anyway, that's my first rant of 2013 over... :D

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I'll believe we will get a vote when I'm standing in the voting booth with a pen in hand and voting slip in front of me.

Till that time I am sure every mainstream party will weasel out of actually allowing voters to make any meaningful choices on the future of the country.

Re: Cameron promises a vote on Europe
 

they are blaming the sick and unemployed. UKIP are the only party with anything behind them who want out of the EU yet they are perceived to be right wing and possibly even fascists lol it is a shame because all the EU is doing is dragging us down with them. Thank god we stayed out of the Euro

---------- Post added at 10:01 ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 ----------

he has only just found his balls and started to stand up to DC took him to long.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Some trade? A lot of our trade is with Europe. Additionally some of the service sectors and financial sectors want access to that market.

http://www.economist.com/news/briefi...n-making-break

(better article).

It's worth reading the whole thing rather than a quote. In summary leaving the EU will have drawbacks.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

but all these businesses will still want to trade with us we are a wealthy nation if you do not count the economy lol there is a lot of money spent that has nothing to do with politics .

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

It's not that simple. There are costs to trading, tariffs and so forth. It costs money to trade, costs we do not face as a member of the EU. People won't trade with us if they can trade with other EU member states at a lower cost. Companies than need to import items might move their operations into mainland Europe to avoid such costs. They'll take their jobs with them.

There would be benefits to leaving the EU as well but the people who portray it as having no advantages are lying. There will be a cost to pay for leaving.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

This is just standard-issue scaremongering.

A couple of facts about our balance of trade with the EU. Firstly, it may receive almost half of all our exports, but a very short time ago it was comfortably more than half. It has been dropping, and continues to do so. Meanwhile other parts of the world are booming, particularly the Commonwealth, a group of nations we have strong historical and current ties with, but cannot make our own trading arrangements with, because we have surrendered that ability to the EU.

Secondly, we are a net importer of goods from the EU. The EU needs us as a market more than we need it. The idea that we could negotiate anything less than favourable terms for continued access to the single market is disingenuous to say the least.

Damien, your claim that "People won't trade with us if they can trade with other EU member states at a lower cost." doesn't stack up, for a couple of major reasons. The first is that in a capitalist market, which, more or less, the world is, sellers in the market must find constant growth. Even if they sell into 'cheaper' markets first, the need for growth will drive them into 'expensive' ones also. The idea that the UK is suddenly going to be starved of consumer products is just silly.

Following on from that, you're making a pretty huge assumption about the relative costs of selling goods within and outside of the European Union. The rules of the single market do not promote freedom and ease of access. For the most part, they merely use consumer freedom and protection as a smokescreen to disguise vested interests. The regulations make it costlier for importers to sell in EU markets. Getting some of those regulations off our statute book would give us a competitive advantage.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I am not saying they won't trade with us. I am saying that there is a risk that our imports and especially exports will be hit. Also 'less than half and dropping' is still a lot. Having 50% of our exports hit would be a major problem. Especially since the dropping part is also an assumption, if mainland Europe's economic situation improves and they start to see growth then they may again be an important market for us. One in which we'll have additional costs to sell into.

They may need us more than we need them at the moment but Europe as an entity will be bigger than us both in terms of consumers, spending, manufacturing and GDP.

Yes they are assumptions but so is the idea that we'll have a competitive advantage. My complaint is that all we ever here is the EU is a disaster and we'll clean up by being out of it. So I linked to one of the few papers to make a case for staying in the EU rather than getting out of it.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The only choice will be Stay in or Stay in, in different words . UKIP gets my vote next time round. Not that it will make a scrap of difference to the outcome in North Cardiff ( It will I fear stay Red )

On another point our UK company does very little export trade with in the EU. What we do takes up more office time. Red tape , & more Red tape. However we do import many because anti dumping levies means it is as cheap to get from the EU but that also means higher prices for the end user, with extra cash for Poland and the like. Out of the pockets of people in the UK.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I think we should leave Europe, but only if it really benefits us.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

My fear is that if we leave the EU we'll just be under more control of America.
much like a general election you vote for the least worst party and that's probably the EU.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Oh look now the ruddy Germans are sticking there great big noses in. Not like the Germans to try and control other nations is it :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20974666

Well as far as i am concerned they can stick there warning up there lederhosen

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Actually i'm quite flattered that they think enough of the UK to be issuing these bits of "advice" ,the Germans need us in europe more than we need europe and are worried we might actually take our ball away and play with the other boys and the yanks want us in europe to keep some semblance of sanity in the crazy club

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Sorry but Europe can rot in hell as far as i am concerned and we need to be out of it when it happens

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

i agree i just like all the attention :D

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

:LOL:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

And now Miliband jumps on the bandwagon :rolleyes:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21002984

I can agree with Miliband over sleep walking towards the exit and that it is a bad thing, we need to be sprinting at full pelt towards the exit :)

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

So in other words the public are too stupid to be given a choice so the politicians should make their minds up for them.

Nice. Reminds me why political types are so loved and respected by everyone!

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Well i for one am happy that politicians make such choices for us .Personally my deliberations on choice of beans is taking precedent at the moment ,i have also deliberated extensively throughout the morning over which bread to toast so feel that the countries future development and societies well being are of little concern to me and more suited to individuals of higher intellect ......i'll have a good banter about it down the pub later :)

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

He has a point imo, if we're going to potentially become the next Denmark I'd like as much unbiased information made available to as many people as possible so we can an educated choice rather than relying on some shyster trying to persuade us to his cause.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Yup. This is not going to be a small decision. The way it's being viewed at the moment is that it will be an action without consequence, that we'll be free of EU meddling and bureaucracy and that will be that. There is never a mention of the benefits we will and might lose. 50% of our trade is with the EU.

What happens to the car companies that depend on the smooth and tariff-free trade between us and the mainland when their factories are here?

What happens to the start-up community the government is trying to build at the Silicon Roundabout in Old Street? I can tell you now that there is an abundance of people that use the right to work as members of the EU there. Do we cede that to Berlin who also want that industry?

People point to Norway and Switzerland as examples of being able to stay out of the EU but they do still have to deal with some EU edicts only they have no power to sway them. Norway still trades with the EU but they get given the rules and they cannot influence or veto them.

Of course we don't know that the alternative is exactly. As Heseltine said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...on-Europe.html

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Less than 50%, and dropping - despite 40 years of policies explicitly designed to reorientate our trading patterns away from the world as a whole and inwards towards Europe. And we have a trade deficit with the EU - they sell more to us than we sell to them. To assume that there will be punitive tariffs for UK exporters is to fly in the face of common sense. The EU stands to lose a lot more than we do out of a tariff war.

And let's not forget, more Euro-denominated financial dealings take place in London -I.e. outside of the Eurozone - than in all the rest of the EU combined. Which leads neatly on to ...

Hezza is merely regurgitating all the same scare stories that were put about by those that wanted us to join the Euro. We didn't join the Euro. The world didn't end. The British economy didn't end. In fact, now the Euro has landed hard on its rear end, the British economy is doing rather better than comparable Eurozone economies like Spain and Italy, which are crippled and facing endemic unemployment, despite having balance sheets which on paper are healthier than ours, because the Spanish and Italian governments have surrendered control of the policy controls necessary to sort the problem out for themselves.

In the long run, lack of autonomous economic control is a far bigger disadvantage for a nation state than any of the supposed short-term advantages of having an unelected politburo in Belgium arranging affairs for you.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I think this article from last year sums it up nicely

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/e...er-the-EU.html

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

But this suggests that it will continue to drop and not that 'less than 50%' is actually a temporary low percentage caused by the Eurozone crisis. It's not as if Europe will just fade away with less and less economic activity happening. As it heads out of a crisis, probably still a number of years away, there is no reason to doubt that they will start to import more again. This is all leaving aside the fact that 45%-50% is a massive number when dealing with a single bloc.

No one is saying it will be a trade war but what exactly are the terms in which will we continue to do business with Europe? Even if we have it all our own way, which is unlikely, we will still be subject to some EU regulations. We still won't be export products which do not meet EU standards to the EU. We just won't be able to shape those regulations.

If we end up like Norway, part of the European Economic Area (which is the likely concession the EU would make to us) then we're subject to all sorts of trade and business regulations only we have no veto and no power to sway them. We, like Norway, would simply have to say 'fine'.

The global nature of financial services also means that London's banks will still have to abide by regulations and reports required of them by the EBA. Although the financial sector is occasionally upset with Europe our membership of the EU is a benefit, not a hindrance, to them setting up here.

http://www.thecityuk.com/research/ou...he-eu-economy/
http://www.thecityuk.com/blog/why-ou...opportunities/

It's quite easy to have scare stories when the alternative route is not well defined. We cannot assume that our trade relationship with Europe will be in the event we leave. Some of our 'partners' will have a special interest and not giving us the terms we want. They all have a vested interest in getting car factories placed in their countries, not ours. Berlin has gone been gunning for the technology start-up industry and we're starting to do ok there with the creation of the Silicon Roundabout community. If you go to one of the many meetings they have there you'll see just how many Europeans work in it. In the absence of the EU right-to-work then this too will be hit, no longer will they be able to recruit from across the continent. I don't have much faith in our immigration laws compensating for that either.

It seems to me that in the bast case scenario we'll have no hit at all in our trade but we'll have to abide by EU regulation, ala Norway, with no power to shape them. The worst case scenario is that we are hit, especially in manufacturing. The holy grail of complete access to the European Market with no strings attached looks a pipe dream. Maybe it isn't. However as Heseltine points out, we're talking about a referendum and we know nothing of what it will be about.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Damien, the EEA was created mostly as a waiting room for States whose governments anticipated full EU membership would follow. That's why it carries a heavy regulatory burden, a la Norway, where despite many years of fierce campaigning the political class has never persuaded the citizens to vote 'yes' in a referendum. The Norwegian government has always enthusiatsically implemented EU directives because it has always believed that it would soon enough be a full member and would have to implement the directives anyway. Unfortunately for the Norwegian government, the democratic voice of the Norwegian people keeps getting in the way. The Norwegian people deserve better than the grubby political consensus that exists ove there, which is still pro-EU even though there is now a growing realisation that accession is a more distant prospect than ever.

There is no reason - absolutely no reason whatsoever - to presume that Britiain outside the EU would have to deal with the EU on EEA or Norwegian terms. This is simply yet more Europhile scaremongering.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Political grandstanding and rhetoric aside, I bet the EU would be a lot less worried about the UK leaving if we had a trade surplus with them and were net beneficiaries. At the moment the only thing keeping the Eurozone afloat is the German economy and, IIRC, that shows signs of stalling.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

So what will the agreement be? The EEA is the best example we have of a country not being part of the EU but being part of the free trade agreements. Maybe Switzerland as well. There is no example of a country doing what we propose to do, leaving the EU but keeping all the trade advantages. It is not Europhile scaremongering to therefore look at the closest example there is.

I don't think the concerns are scaremongering. I think they're valid. Rather than scaremongering it could be that there are actual ramifications to consider on this issue and two sides to the debate.

---------- Post added at 09:37 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------

These numbers are temporary. We're not talking about the next year or the next 5 years. We're talking about a change that could affect us, for better or worse, over the next 10, 20, 50 years. Do we see Europe being a key market as we go forward? Europe is obviously a basketcase right now but I don't see it stagnating and falling over the next few decades. Conversely we might be fundamentally unable to be apart of it if it become more united....

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Damien, you simply cannot evaluate a treaty or an arrangement like the EEA without due regard for the context in which it was created. To do so is to invite misunderstanding. You claim it's a valid study due to lack of other examples but that's like saying you can describe a dodo by studying a chicken.

The EEA was created as a framework for non-EU states that expected to apply to become EU states. That is the context in which you must understand it. If you get that key fact straight first, then all other questions as to the applicability of the EEA model to a State wishing to leave, or loosen its ties with, the EU, become easier to answer.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The reason I feel Norway is applicable is because it's relationship with the EU is actually similar to what people are advocating. We want to continue to be part of the trading bloc but not part of the larger EU.

I am not saying we'll get exactly the same deal but we can look to it for an idea of under what terms the EU might consider such an arrangement. Yes, the fact they want Norway to become part of the EU eventually probably does mean the deal wouldn't be the same, they might care less about preparing the groundwork for example.

However it's worth looking at how you would cook a chicken if you found a dodo (and, errr, wanted to eat it :D). If you have an example of how the type of relationship you want with Europe there then you might as well consider how it works even if the implementation will be different in practise.

In otherwords I concede Norway is far from a perfect example, and we won't have the same deal. However it's the only real example we can look too at the moment.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Well of course they are but they're what we have right now and things aren't looking as though they're going to get better any time soon. After all this time when things have inexorably moved in a direction most of us don't want, do we have to wait another 20 years before having the chance to say yes or no? I'd suggest that if we were still in the EU by that time, there'd be no way out at that point because more and more binding decisions will have been forced upon us and powers taken away.

The EU has grown too big too fast and yes we're in grave danger from the fallout whatever we do. However, the Eurocrats have shown themselves to be as singleminded in their approach to Europe's future as they are out of touch with economic reality and it should be for the people of the UK to decide whether we want more of the same or go our own way and accept the consequences f so doing. In the absence of any crystal balls that's all we can do isn't it?

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I didn't mean we need to re-evaluate in 20 years but we need to consider what the next 20 years have in store rather than using Europe's current economic situation as the basis for any decision. Europe probably will have moved closer to a direction we don't want by then, they'll probably still be a big customer base for our products as well.

Yes and I am just arguing for the other side of the argument. Europe obviously has it's bad points and there are more than enough people telling us what they are. There is little discussion of the good points and that's what I am banging on about. :dunce:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

There'd probably be more discussion of the good points if the Eurocrats hadn't shown themselves to be so utterly intransigent and totally dismissive of anyone not sharing their views. ;)

There are clearly pros and cons to being in the EU and I think most people would try to weigh those up before deciding how to vote. IMHO if the EU listened more and dictated less we'd all be a lot happier.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

You could just.as easily be talking about the euroskeptics, perhaps the solution is to bar anyone with a strong view either way from joining in the debate.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

So far as I'm concerned, it's for those running the show and making the rules to prove their worth to us not the other way around.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Update

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

In/out referendum within first half of the next Parliament if the Tories win the next election. Cameron now pointing out the benefits of the EU and warning that access to the free market without the EU is not that easy.

---------- Post added at 08:46 ---------- Previous post was at 08:43 ----------

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The Swiss are such a poor, oppressed nation :rolleyes:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Cameron will vote to stay in the EU if there are changes to it. Cameron is avoiding the question of what he will do if he doesn't get any changes.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Also worth pointing out that there will be "preparatory work" on a referendum bill this side of the election, but no Act of Parliament until afterwards, and therefore no guarantee of any referendum at all unless there is an outright Conservative victory at that next election.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Yeah although it it may politically difficult for Labour to have the bill there, waiting, and not enacting upon it. They would have to explicitly reject to take it forward rather than simply avoiding the issue.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Labour and the Lib Dems could find themselves in a bit of a corner here, especially if things on the continent deteriorate over the next couple of years and create a general impression with the electorate that being shackled to a Euro-corpse is a bad thing. The Tories might actually be able to carry an election on a promise of being the only ones who can "sort out Europe".

Did anyone see/hear the BBC's interview with Guy Verhofstadt this morning? It fairly warmed my heart watching him choke on his croissants with Euro-rage. For anyone who doesn't know, he's the former PM of Belgium and now a MEP and leader of one of the parliament's political groupings. He is also a massive Anglophobe. He insists we can neither change the rules, nor leave the club. On the former, because he's an arch federalist, so loosening the Union is unthinkable. On the latter, I can only assume it has something to do with the UK being a chunky big net contributor to his expenses account the EU budget and therefore his Anglophobia doesn't restrain him from picking our pockets.

Re: Cameron promises a "real choice" on Europe
 

Well it's unlikely he will be replaced by a more pro-European Conservative and, as much as the backbenches may moan, he isn't likely to be replaced before the next election anyway. The biggest if is if they win the next election but if a lot of the work is already done then Labour would need to ditch it (as opposed to simply not doing anything) and that may prove difficult.

He is called the referendum regardless of the result of any changes. He hasn't made clear what he would advocate for in the event no concessions are made but I suspect it would still be to stay in. However I think Europe will throw a few minor concessions in but that it will fall short of what Cameron wants - he'll present it as a win anyway.

It's hard to imagine that a referendum won't happen now. I think the pro-EU side will win it however.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Isn't 2018 to late? did we not sign something that stated all EU members must be part of the Euro in 2017? has this been mentioned already or an I mistaken?

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The UK has a permanent opt-out from the Euro. There are other measures due to become permanent over the next couple of years, that is definitely ringing a bell, but I can't remember what they are.

In any case, it wouldn't matter - Cameron is talking about changing the treaties that form and govern the EU. There is nothing done that cannot be undone by a new treaty. The trick is whether he will get a new treaty, and whether it will contain what we want.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

There is stuff in the Lisbon Treaty that comes into effect between 2014 /17 but there is to much to read lol

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

What would everyone want to keep from the EU if we had our way?

The main two I can currently think of are:

• Freedom of movement/right to work
• The single market

Obviously we would still be in the ECHR

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

that top one I am afraid is one of the top things those who want out of the EU want rid of

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The single market and thats it.

Removal of the ECHR as a final port of call for appeals would also be high up on my list of demands. We already have a Supreme Court here, having the Supreme Court being not very supreme after all and having very important decisions made by judges with limited or no legal experience in the UK doesn't sit well with me.

Overall it was an OK speech but a bit of a cop out. It leaves plenty of wiggle room for Cameron not to hold a referendum if he doesn't get his way on compromise and kicks the whole in/out referendum down the line for another session and a half of parliament.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I think the right to work is largely a good thing. First of all the main large influx was from Poland and they integrated well, worked and contributed to the economy. Maybe ensuring next time a new member state is phased in more slowly might be an idea. Before that we have benefited a lot from French, German, Spanish, Dutch, Italian and more people coming over here too.

Then of course you have all the British people that moved to France/Spain who take advantage of that policy too - even the ones that moan about the EU and immigrants without a sense of irony on the Daily Mail website. :D

---------- Post added at 10:30 ---------- Previous post was at 10:28 ----------

ECHR is a different body and I don't think the Government is suggesting we remove ourselves from that. I think a lot of people are going to be disappointed when they find out that the human rights part would remain.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Especially if you are in employed in accident repair and ambulance driving. They have a more 'relaxed' view on drink driving than most. :erm:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The liar told us he would have a referendum if we voted him in last time. we voted him in and he didn't keep his promise.

he's just lying to us all again because he wants to get back in for another long 4 years.
don't listen to the muppet. he's a liar. he says what you want to hear to get what he wants.

he actually promised a lot of things. I can't think of one he kept to his word on.

and have you noticed how he says "The British People" as if he gives a fig all of a sudden what we think or want?

the muppet.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Why is it now that he wants to take it to the British people to vote for it, He won't be in power then and his puppet Clegg will be out of a job.

Since he has been in power, he had made promise after promise, that hasn't been met, ie On Sky news he stated that 80% of the promises he made hasn't been met.

Clegg is on the verge of being ousted from the Li Dems, its about time people realised that what comes out of Cameron's mouth l would not believe one bit, its just a vote puller, that he wont win - at the next election he will be out.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The thing I've realised about all this is that the Liberal Democratic Party is an extinct political party now.
I think Clegg even realises this.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I get to use the job figures again. There are 5 people unemployed to every one job available . It the automatic right to work was removed this figure would be so much better for UK nationals

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

True but I think we should try to combat such low wages being offered. I mean why wasn't minimum wage applied in this cases or is it too low? It would solve that problem and maybe reduce too much immigration from unskilled workers.

Even if we had only the single market we would still be subject to EU regulations. The only other two countries which can be in the market without wider EU membership still take directives from the EU.

These are the wider extremes of the ECHR but it's still a good thing despite the times it makes the news for silly things.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

A vote winner I guess.
Personally I'm not going to vote for someone who pulls this trick.Referendum NOW please.:rolleyes:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Indeed i agree.

My options at the next election

I will vote ether Conservative or Ukip,

I will not vote Labour as they want us in the EU so they can spend spend spend then when we are even further in the poo they will ask the EU for a bail out, I will not vote for the libs (who are a non party now) as they will just sign away even more of our sovereignty and law to the EU if they could and take us into the Euro as well.

So Conservatives or Ukip it is for me and then vote OUT.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Yeh. why can't we have it now.
why does it have to be on condition that he'll only do it if we vote him back in.

The "British People" want it now Dave you muppet.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Because he believes he can make a better case for staying in if we can reform parts of the EU that are unpopular. Not to mention that at the moment it's not the best time for the pro-EU camp to hold a referendum given the Eurozone crisis. People are more likely to vote to stay in if the European economies are booming and Greece isn't a basketcase.

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I agree with Gary on this .There is no reason why Cameron can't just announce a referendum in 6 months .That announcement alone would probably be enough to carry him through the next election

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

He knows he will not get in at the next election and he knows Labour and the Libs will NEVER offer the people who vote for them a choice.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Cameron has just stated on Sky, that he doesn't want Britian to leave the EU, he wants to reform it.

What does he think he is, everyone wants to come out, yet he wants to stay. He simply cannot make up his mind, the General public want to come out.

This is just a vote puller BUT this wont happen for another three years, hiping he is still PM - no chance

---------- Post added at 12:16 ---------- Previous post was at 12:11 ----------

Yesterday, he has said he is making thousands more of our armed forces redundant to save money, and depend on the TA to push up our forces overseas.

Yet today in the Commons he has said yet again he is prepared to send my financial aid overseas.

Everyone is suffering, our brave lads and lasses are fighting for the country and then come home and get redundant, and yet he will spend money on overseas - what plant is he on, ceratinly not on this one

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Arthur, if you want out of the EU, vote Tory in 2015. It's that simple. Ed Miliband has already said he thinks the PM's policy is "weak" and Nick Clegg says a referendum is "not in the national interest". So far, the Tories are the only ones offering you any chance of getting what you want.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Who do you hate more Arthur, The Conservatives or the EU? :D

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

You appear to be confusing "number of jobs advertised in Jobcentres" with "number of jobs available" - they are not the same thing.

For example, my previous place of work has 36 jobs on its job-site - only 7 of those are in the Jobcentre as well; and that doesn't include the estimated 60% of all vacancies that are never advertised - Guardian.

According to the Federation of Small Businesses

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

If you listen carefully you can just hear the sound of Arthurs head exploding as he deliberates that dilemma :D

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Oooft. Milliband just made a rod for his back in PMQ's.

Clear 'No' answer to whether he thinks the public should get a referendum on Europe.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Not surprising but a tad naive to think that a 'no' won't come back and haunt him

---------- Post added at 13:18 ---------- Previous post was at 12:58 ----------

I'm wondering if Cameron is playing a different game .Given the amount of controversy that speech will cause with all the main EU leaders is he hoping that Europe will make the publics mind up for them without him after to commit to anything .One thing is for sure he has taken the initiative away from UKIP .

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

The guy from UKIP has just been on Sky, along with Dr Liam Fox and he has said that Cameron a dangererous game, and the UKIP leader has said, why wait, why not now.

I am slowly going towards UKIP, he talks more sense than anyone.

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Good heavens ... Arthur, for once I find myself almost agreeing with you on a matter of politics ... :Yikes: :D

I will certainly vote UKIP at the Euro-elections in 2014 but I will do so in the hope of forcing Dave to further crank-up the hard talking ahead of the general election in 2015. The last thing I want to do now is risk another hung Parliament or worse, an outright Labour win.

That of course is what Dave is aiming for - he wants to spike UKIP's guns and hopes to gain votes out of it. However as you yourself show, Arthur, UKIP long ago stopped being a party simply for disaffected Tories. It is becoming attractive to those from across the political spectrum who think the mainstream parties no longer represent the interests of ordinary people.

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Except for Labour and the Libs, make you sodding mind up who you are supporting Arthur :confused:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

And the wages would be better, it's all right for Roland from Poland and his pals living three or four to a house and still filling their boots on low paid jobs but quite another for your average English person with a family to do the same. friends who work in factories and warehouses have told me they.were paid better ten years ago for doing similar work than they get now in actual cash.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Excellent post Sir :tu:

---------- Post added at 15:19 ---------- Previous post was at 15:16 ----------

Its the open door policy that has made me so anti EU, We are the alternative benefits system for people from other country's who come here and decide they can be better off on benefits because we are idiots and let them do it.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

Is there a lot of evidence of EU citizens of other states claiming benefits?

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/englan...rom_abroad.htm

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I look at it this way, I would do what l felt was best for my wife and family, no matter what we say the policticans will have there own way.

Its like all of them, they are all talk when they want your vote then disappear into the woodwork.

IF there has to be a vote then it should be done as soon as possible, Cameron has been saying for months that he will decide when he is ready.

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Sorry my bad English but i am sure you will get the point
I am not going to say about which politician is better or about general UK or EU laws because to me does not matter as they have set it how the big one want and not how we want

This is interest/games guys of the Elite behind politicians

UK joined EU on the slide side (with out asking people but also the other EU countries), just UK did not joined their currency

Now their interest/game seems for a reason has changed/is not good, so now vote for going out ... lol...something "smells"
If they wanted stay in, they will not say a world going out or in and would had thinks be/stay the same

To my understanding are like 2 powers (worldwide)

One want EU as it is and an other want EU broke (both for their own reasons)
We only looking UK but if you look what is happening in EU is something similar (talks for economic problems and some countries is better to go out)

Is like holding a balloon in the water (is a general meaning for all EU countries) which needs pressure
Some time by nature this pressure holding the balloon will weaker then it will come out of the water due to its air into it...and will come out with more pressure than applied to keep it in

To the point now...
Politicians now knows EU turns to change from the first time joined & something very serious is going to happen in EU this year or in the worst case next begin year at maximum and will affect UK too if is economic
To me does not matter if UK stay out or in... or have different money or not

Example .... if US dollar go down automatic all marketing will go up...gas,electric petrol,Wall Street etc even if Russia,China,EU,UK etc has different currency everything globally will have affect

I know few will call me silly saying this but if look little more behind may understand

Prepare and be aware (every one with its own search) i think will come difficult times

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

I cannot believe anyone is taking Cameron's word on a referendum seriously.

He made exactly the same pledge at the last election and reneged on it. He will do exactly the same again. He is taking the electorate for a load of mugs with short term memory problems.

This whole referendum scam is just a ploy to get himself and his party re-elected.

Vote UKIP. It seems to be the only choice if you really want a referendum on Europe.

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Really you think they look for work with pocket loads of cash & a home to stay in which they pay for.Also if they time it right . They can leave the UK & claim all the income tax they paid back. :mad:

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

They're not allowed to sit there and soak up benefits is my point.

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

re: [Update] Cameron promises EU referendum by October 2017
 

with respect Maggie but yes it is ,it is also about any other EU directive forced on us .Immigration will be at the forefront of most peoples mind when they eventually get to put the cross in a box on a referendum paper ,so i think it is very much on topic