Tories again hitting the poor
 

www.skynews.co.uk - Benefit cap on two children

Ian Duncan Smith is stating in tomorrows newspapers that child benefit is going to be capped on parent/s having just two children.

This yet again hitting the poor, what is wrong with the Tories, IS the 3rd or 4th child to blame for coming into the world, if the parent does not have a job - whose fault is that.

I have three children, and my daughter has three children - so the government are going to condemn us as we have a third child. Its about time the government put this country back on its feet before cutting back on the benefit system.

This week we learned that two major companies are closing down factories - the reason people are not buying that product as there is no money. There are no jobs going, and the government claim that we can offer this and that, we can cut this and that, so who do they hit first, the poor as they cannot fight back.

Instead of fiddling figures by the unemployment rate, by saying there is more people in work - total rubbish. They should get investment in this country, instead of giving out contracts to overseas countries to try and butter them up. If you stop giving out aid to countries that don't need it - we would have money.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Did the existence of child benefit influence your decision to have children? I hope not. If it did then that confirms that it is being issued incorrectly as an income advantage and incentive.

So major companies, I presume you refer to the likes of Ford, are closing some factories. The vehicle industries have been in trouble for years, the global economies have just highlighted this. For how long should people keep on and on flogging a dead horse?

Giving out contracts to overseas? Oh dear, you'd better start blaming every party that supports European agendas for that one since it's part of the rules this country is signed up to as a member of the EEC.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

[OT]

How to paste a link to the actual story (again):

Go to "www.skynews.co.uk".

Click on the "UK" tab.

Click on "Large Families Set To Face Benefit Cuts" (at the top of the page).

Highlight the URL (address) in the browser's address bar.

Right-click and select "Copy" -or- Press CTRL-C (or cmd-C on a Mac).

Right-click within the forum post and select "Paste" -or- Press CRTL-V (or cmd-V on a Mac).

http://news.sky.com/story/1002682/ia...f-benefit-cuts


Here endeth the lesson.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2012/10/10.jpg


[/OT]

Also have a read of Mick's sticky post at the top of Current Affairs:

Read here before posting News Item threads in Current Affairs

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I cannot for the life of me work out why he reads the page and then presses the back button and then copies the link instead of just copying the link of the page he is reading :confused:


Anyhoo ,the idea behind this is to make it fairer for the people who are working ,yes that includes you arthur ,why should people who work have to stop having kids because they can't afford it and those on benefits not have any such worries

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Let's turn this around. You presumably pay taxes. You also presumably support your own children. Do you think it's fair that you pay for some bloke who sits on his backside all day swigging bitter to have 7 or 8 kids?

Whether we like it or not, the benefits budget is one of the government's largest budgets. As such, it is likely that it will also have some of the largest cuts.

Unless you know of a way to reclaim several billion pounds a year without cutting the budget.

Government doesn't know what to do next, first they attacked British citizens who just so happened to want to marry a foreigner.. But this went unnoticed to most people.. As people aren't aware unless it effects them, but basically if you are British born even to british parents this means nothing if you fall in love with a foreigner.. If you aren't earning £18,600 a year, you are in a situation where you have to be voluntarily exile yourself... Because if u can't meet the income limit u can't get your partner here, and if you move abroad to live with them u stand even lesser chance of meeting the income level so u are effectively exiled abroad. Should be noted as well that if that partner falls pregnant with your child.. That minimum income then increases up to anything around £30,000 depending on amount of children.

Now they are attacking the countries own citizens with cuts like this which are effecting poorer families.

Yes cuts need to be made to benefits but they are targeting the wrong people. There's loads of people abusing the system that need rooting out, like somebody I've seen on Facebook.. Has 3 children, bf purposely not moving in or getting married, house paid for by the council, child benefits.. Income support from the father, and other benefits probably also.. Doesn't work at all.. Yet house is better decorated than some working people's homes! Brand new appliances, always having parties and buying lots of food.. How can somebody be able to live like that when they don't even work? And if they are that well off do they need the benefits?


Another case I saw a few years back.. Single mother, 2 children, had some kind of disability.. Was getting a new car every few years under motability.. And had enough income leftover to send children to private schools with tailored uniforms... Yes they should get something because they are disabled.. But if they can afford to send their children to provide schools an afford tailored uniforms begs the question are they receiving too much benefits.

Also seen cases where child benefits system has been abused and foreigners have found ways to have children here, claim child benefits then continue to claim them when they return home through the help of people still here... Money is paid into their bank account as per normal them somebody withdraws it and sends abroad.

Cuts should be made to those kinds of people, and tighter checks and controls should be employed to stop abuse in order to save money... Not punish british citizens who are the innocent who do genuinely work and still struggle to support their families.

I am usually a conservative supporter and voter, but after they have done stuff like this and also genuinely effected me also with their stupid ideas.. Next time I probably won't bother any lore voting don't wanna vote or labour or lib dems either so better not to vote at all lol.

Another example of them wasting money is this police commissioner stuff.. Did you know they will be paying the commissioner anything up to £100,000 a year just to tell the police what they can improve on... Considering how many commissioners there will be that's a lot of money! There must be cheaper ways of doing this?

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Matt

Well done but i feel you will have done that in vain. Arthur does it to wind us up and i bet now that his next Tory rant will not have a link that works :D

---------- Post added at 06:58 ---------- Previous post was at 06:55 ----------

Nothing to add to that except What he said :tu:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Go after the taxes that some companies and individuals should be paying and not leave tax loopholes for some companies and individuals to use.If they do that along with budget cuts I for one won't complain.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Just to play devils advocate...

I thought we were in an aging population, if this is so, surely we should be breeding like bunnies no ?

Let's not forget that even benefit breeders, pay tax on everything they purchase like ... food etc.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Food (normal food that is and not snacks/treats/fastfood) is VAT free

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I think it's a great initiative and long over due.

If you can't afford to have kids, then don't have them

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

What happens if you can afford to have kids, have a few, then lose your job and can't find another?

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Then they should be strung up and vilified for not having a job and sponging off those that are paying taxes.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Sell them? :)

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Course he doesn't. 'Think' I mean...

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

IF, this government wanted to cut benefits, then they have to cut out the families that come from abroad to milk the system.

We read recently in the media that TWO families came from abroad and openly admitted that the benefit system in this country is soft and have moved into a 'millionaires' pad at a cost to US which costs us millions of pounds, and they they had the cheek to say that the house was not big enough.

The government has to close this loophole and that will save money - picking on the poor is not the answer.

Its not a question of people sitting on there backside drinking booze and having children.

Its about time the government started to close this loophole of spongers from abroad, before hitting the brits. We also had romaniam travellers with SEVEN children come into the UK as the system was there to be used. THIS MUST STOP. But will the government do this - NO.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

The devil's always in the detail, but it surely can't be beyond the wit of man to devise a system that provides a safety net for people in such circumstances without at the same time providing free cash for those who never had a job in the first place(nor much intention of ever getting one).

There is a hard core in our society where not working is the family business. It's handed down the generations just as surely as an elderly carpenter or blacksmith would once have handed down his tools to his son. That has got to be broken.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Scrap the lot !

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

So, IDS: Would this suggestion actually save money, or is it just posturing and bandying ideas around that are not only impractical, but unlikely to raise any money in real terms and only really serve to vilify those on benefits again.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Raising money is naturally of immediate concern, but as he's raising this as something to be considered after 2015 it's clearly not part of a desperate deficit-cutting measure.

Besides, even if it doesn't make a vast difference to the national coffers, there is an important principle at stake here. We should not be in a position of making non-work more financially rewarding than work because that is simply unfair. Society only works in the long run when everyone agrees that the overall settlement is fair. That's why we don't have bloody revolution every 5 years when a party more than half of us didn't vote for gets into power. Any aspects of unfairness must be addressed, even if they don't by themselves raise a billion for the exchequer.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Quite right and when there's more old than young people we can just import loads of immigrants to make up the shortfall.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

So if this system was in place then they would not get benefits for the SEVEN kids :rolleyes:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Why not make work financially more rewarding then because despite Arthur's headlines to the contrary I doubt there are many living millionaire lifestyles on benefits

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I don't recall anyone suggesting those on benefits are living 'millionaire lifestyles'. That's not the argument being made, and to characterise it as such is to set up a straw man.

How would you suggest we 'make' work more financially rewarding?

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Just sterilise them first of all;)

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Sorry, but from where I'm standing the settlement is rapidly becoming unfair because the poor and vulnerable are getting squeezed at every opportunity with little reagard for practicality or effectiveness in the grander scheme of things.

We really are talking peanuts in comparison with the amounts of money lost in tax avoidance by individuals and companies yet I hear very few of our politicians going on about making sure the important principle of paying your fair share is adhered to. Instead, it's looking more like "let's squeeze the poor a bit more, because they're an easy target, and we can".

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I seem to recall Arthur saying that people were moving into million pound houses despite the fact that option has been closed due to the housing benefit cap.

We could start by paying a living wage rather than the barest minimum and we could even go on to make sure that no one is better of on benefits than they would be working not by cutting benefits to the bone but by increasing wages.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I have two new points to make. I have just come back from shopping and l took a count of familes with children. I saw one couple with SEVEN children and a trolley load of food. And another family with FIVE children. And both these families came from abroad.

When families come abroad, the Benefit agencies place them in properties to fit there 'style' and amount of children, The media recently had a story of a family with NINE children and the house was a 'millionaire style' property and it was totally wrecked by the family, as soon as the owner found out who was there he got them evicted.

The government have got to stop this total waste of the benefit system, as it is US that are paying for it.

The benefit system is being milked by overseas visitors and they are laughing in our faces and yet the poor brits get hit - and l can never understand why.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Erm, Arthur - how do you know these families came from abroad?

My mum and dad had five kids (well, eight really, but three died very young), and we didn't come from abroad....

btw, C4 Factcheck have some interesting information on this subject.

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/...Claims2510.jpg

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Until the Govt stops spending 9 Billion /yr on Foreign aid, instead of banging on about 'benefit scroungers' and completely diverting the issue, i'll never take them seriously.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Hugh, you are working overtime with your figures, my mother in law had 14 children, sadly two didn't make it.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

the living wage is 2 pounds an hour more for living in London than the minimum, less for outside and you think that's going to bring everything crashing down, the only thing it might mean is certain companies.don't have quite as much tax to avoid next year as this.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Only if they promise not to grow old or have children here otherwise they become part of the problem. :erm:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I think in the future if you have two children & cannot afford any more why have them for other people to keep. This should go for all immigrants too. It does not mean children already born. Some people just keep having one after another & also dogs & smoke like a chimney

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Arthur i have a question for you, i know you don't like answering question but i will try.

If the government brings in this limit it then means that those with more than 2 kids will not get any money for the others, So that means people from here or another country will only get money for 2 kids.

So here is the QUESTION do you think if they know that they will only get money for 2 of there kids decide not to visit and live here.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

If it stops them from coming I am all for it. But the do-gooders in this country would find a way for them.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

If it stops little tarts from spreading their legs wide so they can milk the system dry then I'm all for it.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

:tu:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Not sure that applies to most cases........willing to accept I'm wrong with that assumption.....:D

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Hi Sirius, And you yourselves know the answer to that question. The benefit system in this country is so flawed that a little kid could go round it.

IF it was brought in tomorrow that you could only claim for TWO children, then there is someone out there that will INVENT a name to cover the other two, that's been proven on that Tv show 'Saints and Scroungers'

A council official was doing a scam and claiming for children she DIDN'T have, and she got sent to prison for it.

I am all for people who run scams being found and prosecuted as its us that are paying for it. But what the government have to do is find these people and sto it in its tracks before hitting the poor. Does that answer your question.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Well i tell you now i am all for this, Plus it might stop kids being born to the sods who will not work and have kids just to increase there benefits . So yes bring it in and SOON.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Perhaps they "looked foreign" to Arthur? :erm:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Paying higher wages simply because the cost of living has gone up is a tried and tested failure ,i am earning probably 3x as much as i did 20 yrs ago but i am no better off ,wages go up, prices go up, then wages go up add infinitum ,it's that vicious circle that needs breaking somehow

---------- Post added at 19:42 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

That's what is needed but how do you stop companies hiking the prices up as soon as they realise their is more disposable income about

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

A welfare system as a safety net? and not a lifestyle choice?

Holmes, I think you might be onto something here.....................................

---------- Post added at 20:16 ---------- Previous post was at 20:15 ----------

Plenty of young people without a job at the moment.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

When my younger step-daughter returned from working in the United States after two years, aged 24, the advice she was given by an old school friend was, "Get pregnant and the Council will give you a flat". She was horrified, since she went to University for 3 years and gained a good degree. Her "friend" (now ex-friend) got pregnant shortly after leaving school at 18, was given a flat by the Council and now has a second child from a different Father. My step-daughter has moved away from the area to live and has another full time job. She rents a flat with her boyfriend who is a nurse and they currently have no plans to start a family.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

This 'millionaire' life style by some people living on benefit, as it was stated in the newspapers some families are on £30.000 per year from benefit.

As soon as people come from abroad, they are placed on benefit, go straight to the council list and we end up paying it.

When l was unemployed l was on benefit of £75.00 per week and l had a wife and two children. Now l have a job, since 2009 my wages have not risen and told recently that l will not get a pay rise until 2015 due to financial pressure on the employer.

BUT bills have gone up and so l think it would be better off on benefit. NO rent to pay, NO council tax to pay - would l go on benefit, no l would not.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I should probably point out Arthur that the changes to the benefit system that are coming in i.e rent capping that you where so vocal AGAINST a few months ago are designed to stop people being better off on the dole

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

There are several points l might add to your comment martyh, people are NOT better off on the dole.

Only a few people are better off and that is down to the system, its no one fault that they are out of work, and have been for several years. The benefit system should be given to those people that are genuinely out of work. It should NOT be there for those people that have just come into this country.

To me the government should state that you can only claim benefit IF you have been in this country for longer than 12 months or IF you can prove that you are actively looking for work.

When l was out of work l HAD to PROVE l was looking for work, and l did, BUT they still insisted l wasn't trying hard enough.

What the Tories are simply doing is hitting the poor and NOT hitting the people they should be hitting. I hated being out of work, The government are not doing enough to bring industry back to the UK.

A very good friend of mine has been looking for work in Margate, and he tells me the place is totally dead, and is only busy during the tourist season, shops are shut and he tried several jobs in Kent, and he did not get any replies - i was getting reference letters about him, but he still didn't get work.

The poor always get hit, and they cannot use there voice until election days. i am NOT A LABOUR voter. As they badly let the country down, but what the Tories are doing at the moment is always thinking of who to hit next - instead of thinking about increasing there wages and expenses account.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Benefits aren't just for people out of work Arthur .At my wifes work there are about 16 people most of who are on 16-25 hrs a week and they get benefits to top up their wages such as tax credits and housing benefits .Some have been offered more hours upto 38hr a week but they refused them because they would lose the benefits and be worse off

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

The recent rule change from 16 hours' work to get many of the benefits, to 24 hours' work to get many of the benefits has financially hammered several of my friends who cannot get 24 hours work a week, let alone a full 40.

Two other mates, close to pension age, were told that they could either drop from 40 hours to 22 hours per week (and no overtime) or be made redundant. Their employers are desperate to stay in business, but the banks won't help with their cashflows.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

That's right ,it's all a bit of a mess .A lot of employees don't bother offering 40 hrs a week because they know it will be refused because the benefits are worth more or the employer knows he van get away with paying minimum wage because he knows the state will pick up the slack

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I know it is hard for some people to get jobs. But there are people who don,t want to work at all. The just take all they can get from the system.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

you've met my next-door neighbour then :(

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

WE have all got them ;)

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

There are several pointers to make and many people have made several good points.

1) if you are working and want to claim benefit to increase the low wage, you have to work six weeks to claim this benefit.

2) If you are working and get offered an increase, you will lose that benefit that you are allowed and also if you claim benefit, you will lose other benefits.

3) What the government have to do and many people have not spotted this one, immigrants are allowed to claim benefit and are legally allowed to send benefits overseas to there loved ones.

4) This government disgracefully admit they give billions in aid to overseas countries which DON'T NEED it, it was stated in The Sun, which l placed in this forum.

5) The government then proceed to discuss giving extra payments to ministers in thousands of pounds as they 'deserve it'

6) We see quite openly in the media where minsters rent out there own flats to fellow minsters and then claim expenses, and nothing is done.

In an area where l work, l see things that make my blood boil where shopkeepers quite openly pay foreign workers in cash to work, when they cannot find anyone to do the job and quite often this is a can of beer of money to but this.

Yet this government still find ways of hammering the poor, its about time that the government started from the top and cut out all the waste of money.

I worked at the House of Commons many years ago and the amount of food waste they and the expensive taste they have is a dsigrace.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

You have had a hell of a lot of jobs and have worked at a hell of a lot of places Arthur :rolleyes:

I take it that it was tripe and chips for labour and caviar for the conservatives :LOL:


Arthur

What do you think of this then.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...nging-dad.html

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

what grates my carrot is i get lumped in with people like that as i get benefits

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Not by me you dont :tu:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

He says it's wrong ,but when the government try to fix it he starts a thread attacking them for fixing it :confused:...my head hurts

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Glad i was not the only one who noticed that :)

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

l know exactly how you feel dilli.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I would love to work and contribute to the country, however I have had a lot of bad luck. I drifted into doing temporary work when I left school, then in 2005 I took 3 years out to look after my grandmother and got a job pretty much straight away with Ocado. First night, tore cartilage/tendons in my right knee. Now I can't do warehouse work, and because of my poor work history I am struggling to even get a foot in somewhere. You need experience.

Although I am now looking into training as a carer, maybe even a late entry into nursing. Looking into it at the moment.

And yes, Arthur is a hypocrite. Slams people for scrounging/bleeding the state dry and when a solution is proposed cries 'filthy Tory **** trying to rob from the poor'. Make your mind up and stick to it Arthur.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

:clap:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

To MarkC1984 and Sirius, I am not a hyprocite and resent the comment, I used to work for a company deep cleaning kitchens, and worked in a lot of government buildings.

The wastage of food and the expensive stuff that they had would make everyone jealous of what these government buildings had. I speak my mind and yet people criticise me for what l say.

What do we want in this damn country, The government do waste money and hammer the poor, when l was brought up as a kid, we didn't have as much as what we have now. Poverty was was strong when l was a kid and yet today we have a scociety that is very rich and poor.

The rich treat the poor as if they were garbage, and yet give out a friendly benefit to foriegn workers who take work on the cheap, and government say we cherish these people, what about the brits who are hard working people. Its about time they were looked after.

I have a strong support for OAP's that get treated disgracefully by any government in power, l am against people that abuse the benefit system and yet the poor get hammered.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I would hazard a guess Arthur that no-one on this forum including you has ever experienced real poverty .You went to school ,you had welfare to rely on and you had a roof over your head .Before you continue blaming "foreigners" for the ills of society have a look at this

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20109186

how is it possible that a train company cannot find drivers when there are so many unemployed ?

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

My daughter's friend spent a couple of years training to be a train driver, then the axe fell earlier this year and almost all the trainees were sacked for whatever reason they could find.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

You have had bad luck. They want experience but they should give people a try. Hope you get something soon, ;)

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Are they poor then, 29K a year doesn't make them poor imo, I struggle to comprehend stories like this as everyone I know on benefits struggles big time and yet newspapers never seem to have trouble finding people to write these stories about

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Depends what you mean by struggle ,i struggle to pay bills ,i don't drink anymore and haven't had a holiday in years and i have worked continuously .I know people on the dole that drink every weekend and have a holiday every year

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I had 2 jobs in 42 years made redundant 23 years ago and invested my pay off,made redundant again last year and again have invested redunacy money,was told I was only allowed 6 Months JSA allowance at £67.50 p/w which has recenly finished,and now have to live off my investments and wifes wages

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Yes, you're entitled to JSA based on your National Insurance contributions for the first six months. After that you only continue to get it if you're very hard up.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Also, I think that only applies to Contributions based JSA. My step dad claimed for 3 months after losing his job. After that, I think if you still want to claim you have to go on Income based JSA. Which is means tested, and if you have a certain amount of savings you can't claim. For me, 28 and single, I cannot have more than £16k of savings.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Nor me! :tu:

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

Best of luck to you - seriously! :tu:

---------- Post added at 18:22 ---------- Previous post was at 18:21 ----------

First class! :D

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

That's exactly what I mean by struggle, I don't know anyone that could afford to make benefits a lifestyle choice without topping it up some how.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Well unfortunately that's exactly what happens ,some people see how easy it is to claim some of the multitude of benefits and then get a bit of extra money on the side .There is a culture up here of "get as much off the state as possible" and it shows no sign of going away, if anything it gets worse as the government limits the availability of benefits because people are kicking back so to speak and turning to the labour black market even if they don't claim benefits

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

:tu:

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Inappropriate comments have been removed.

This is not a school playground. Stick to the topic, not silly attacks of each other.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Since l have now calmed down and more relaxed, if l have been rude or sacastic to any member on this forum - then please accept my apologies.

If l am wrong, then l say l am wrong.(took that quip from Dirty Dancing)

We are all entitled to our opions and sometimes we say things we shouldn't. This is why this forum is excellant at expressing views on what your point is.

In future l will learn to keep 'harsh' words to myself.;)

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Why do I get the feeling you've been told to make this post? :)

the wife, I bet.

anyway. we accept your apology.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Im glad they are cutting benefits, i cant believe folk on benefits can afford the iphone5. Benefits should be just enough to get you by, not to live comfortably with

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I actually don't have a problem limiting child related benefits for those on state benefit it has always angered me that some people go on benefit and then start spewing out chabbies not for real reasons such as wanting to be a parent or longing for a child but because it meant a healthy bump in the cash each week. We need to start hitting that attitude and the people that hold it and i have over the years seen quite a few that played that game. I have said in the past on here that when you sign onto state benefit you should be made to sign something to say that you will do all you can to get a job and will not increase your numbers whilst on state benefit sort of a social responsibility type agreement.

Something else that needs to change in reality is the giving of accomadation to young single parents purely because they have a kid where i live there are very few 1 and 2 bedroom properties for rent because they are occupied by youngsters who had a kid. Now tecnically that shouldn't be happening anymore as i am sure they legislated for it a few years ago (not sure so if i am wrong please someone say) but in reality it is still happening. Biggest reform our welfare system needs is to get back to what it was intended for a system that helped people who hit temporary bumps in their working life or looked after those who through no fault of their own are unable to work.

We need to increase wages to a decent point so that top ups from the state are not needed, we need to cut out longterm unemployment benefit as a general benefit with only those in very deprived areas where employment is known to be very hard to get recieve it. Politicians need to stop abusing the welfare system for their own ends when it suits them ie. to bribe come election time and then to hammer it afterwards to show how tough they are.
Those in genuine need to be honest probably need an increase in the money they get but that can only happen when we have got the whole system back into some shape of what it was intended to be not te beemoth it has bbecome to cover up a whole range of social issues.

(sorry if there is mistypes brother bought me a mechanical keyboard and i am still not used to the daamn thing).

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Not everyone who receives benefits can afford such items. Saying that, not everyone who receives a wage can either.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

There are a couple of problems here..

1) While it is obscene that the Government spends as much money as it does to keep MPs comfortable and at least relatively happy, the amount spent only amounts to a few million. The Government needs to save billions.

2) The Benefits bill is probably one of it's largest. Hence they will expect to save most money there. Now, there *are* a lot of people who are on benefits who not be, and a lot more who are claiming benefits they probably shouldn't. The problem is how to target those people (some of whom are skilled in evading the checks used by the benefits system) without hitting those who are claiming legitimately.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

and the very fact you jump to that conclusion without any real evidence to prove it is exactly what the government want

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 ----------

they can't unless they loan off provident or buy off the rediculasly high credit charge companies like Bright House. People on Benefits and dealing drugs or commiting other crime or working on the side can

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I think the think that upsets me about this is that they tell you about the benefit cap, and then they are cutting more police officers, and that they are increasing there allowances and they say that they deserve it.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

People claiming benefits when they shouldn't is a fact not a jumped to conclusion .The only thing that amazes me is that A) people doubt it's true and B) it's took various governments so long to get a grip

---------- Post added at 11:49 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

Everything upsets you Arthur, and what allowances have gone up ?....link perchance?

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Which conclusion are you questioning? The one where I state that the money the government is wasting on things for MPs is a few million, so the amount is rather lower than the multi billion dollar benefits bill? In which case I'd cite basic maths.

Or are you questioning my conclusion that a lot of people are claiming benefits they aren't entitled to? Note, I said a lot, I did not say all or even most. I actually believe the number of people claiming benefits illegally is only a small fraction of the total number of claimants, but that can still be a lot of people.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

1. We are all in this together

2. The benefits bill is the largest but by far the biggest chunk of it goes on pensions, see how far they get if they try and hammer the old.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I haven't followed this all that closely but it seems fraught with problems. First of all the implication that that families having a third child should have planned better, what if they have twins the second time around? What is they are catholic and don't practise contraception? What if they simply 'made a mistake' and didn't want an abortion?

It doesn't seem workable in practise and a policy cooked up by someone detracted from reality.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

This is a disgrace & certainly not fair.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

We are. Or we are supposed to be. This is why I would actually like to see the MPs affected as well as us. What I don't think would work is just cutting the money spent on the Houses of Parliament and various MP residences/offices etc.

That's the thing.. You can ask the poor to limit the number of kids they have. Give them free and easy access to Condoms or other birth control devices, and you could argue they have little excuse for getting pregnant. Yes it would cost money for the condoms, but I'd wager it won't cost the state anywhere near what another baby would cost.

What you can't do, short of killing them, is stop people getting older.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Plus old people a lot more and people are more inclined to support benefits they expect to receive.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

So instead of breaking it down and seeing what costs most, the pensions, they hammer all the disabled, jobless and children under the guise of tackling the welfare bill, to me its more ideological than anything, considering all the cash atos and a4e are milking out of it I just can't see how they will save anything and that's what Gideons all about, what loophole or exemption did he rule out for the richest among us as the saving was a trifle again.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I just watched britians hidden hungry.

Aired by the bbc.

Here is whats bizzare, it was filmed in coventry not far from me in the midlands yet the show was only for bbc scotland, so probably very little in england have viewed it.

It showed numerous people who visited food bank charities.

A young lady called charlotte volunteered there and had no income at all, she was told by the job centre to have a child so she could qualify for benefits, she refused to have that child.

There was a few other cases, as well but all the other cases shown were people who had children.

One case shown was a guy who was abusing the system, lieing about his childs birthday, previous job etc. He fooled the manager of the food bank and was getting food without issued vouchers, whilst another person was challenged even tho she had a voucher. This highlights the danger of individuals judging people at face value.

2 of the people shown including the lady who was questioned were doing charity work themselves, the young girl herself was actually working for the food bank. I relate with the stories as myself having benefited from social help ended up doing charity work myself for the same people who had helped me. Apparently now we have record number of food banks opening in an era where certian parts of the population feel we have no poverty in this country.

Also this show is not about welfare in particular, one lady admitted her problems were made worse by the fact she chose to work for mcdonolds instead of staying unemployed, which highlighted 2 issues, one that mcdonalds dont pay a livign wage and two that the state doesnt help low paid workers enough (what a lot of us already know) and proves the tories values wrong that their solution to work not paying is to make the welfare state unfit for purpose but it doesnt solve the problem that low paid jobs dont pay a living wage.

Funny enough even tho I havent used a food bank, I personally only have one meal a day on average, as its something I got used to whilst on incapacity benefit and have stuck to that habit and now dont regret it. Because charlotte temporarily managed to get back to normal eating habits but then fell into trouble again and because her body had adjusted to the new eating habits she broke down.

The show is only on iplayer for another few hours. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...Hidden_Hungry/

What we seeing now is ideological, there is an assumption the poor cannot manage money (when I feel its the opposite the rich cant handle money), this is proven when we get people on decent wages saying they need to keep their child benefits, tax credits, cant afford more tax etc. because they "work bloody hard" and cant afford to go without, my answer to them is if you cant afford to get by on say 30k a year, how do you expect someone on 10k to manage, I never get a straight answer other than because "I work for it".

In terms of the original reason for the topic, I dont feel a child limit is a problem and is something I would be ok with. The one part of the welfare system that has always been too soft is the amount paid for children. I got no issue with help for childcare I will make that clear tho as I repsect childcare is expensive.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

It was shown across the whole UK on Tuesday 30 October, just not all at the same time. England got it at 10.35pm. The last region to start screening it was Scotland at 11.35pm which is why it's showing as 'Last on .... only in Scotland' at the top of the show's BBC page. But the full transmission details are at the bottom of the same page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01nqcbm

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

What Chris said - we watched it in Yorkshire last Tuesday evening.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

Pensioners are a huge bill I am still waiting for them to get any kind of significant cut, but here is the problem.

A lot of the decision makers are approaching pensionable age.

Alot of voters are of pensionable age.

Media is generally sympathetic to pensioners.

eg. someone who is 64 who is not working is a scrounger by the media, they turn 65 and suddenly they are a deserving pensioner.

However pensioners are not the biggest state expense, the banks are, as it stands 228 billion has gone to the banks net since 2008 directly of the state.
We also have 10s of billions lost to tax avoidance, and 10s of other billions lost to tax cuts.

Europe is taking action on tax avoidance from companies like amazon and apple who pay tax overseas, whilst the uk is "investigating".

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 14:49 ----------

ok thanks, didnt know that.

what your thoughts on it?

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

I've not seen it, but I might fire up the iPlayer if I get a chance this week.

Re: Tories again hitting the poor
 

need to today, is 8 hours left.

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

The problem is really in that most budgets have escaped cuts, that the welfare budget is been targeted as if its something that has no importance and can be trimmed without consequences, this in reality is the government saying the needs of those on welfare dont matter and come after the needs of taxpayers.

Quite often cameron has been speaking on tv saying things like "we dont cut things that impact you and I this is why we have targeted the welfare budget" or "we cut welfare so normal people can carry on". Who is a normal person? over 2/3 of the population claim a benefit of some sort. A big chunk of those who are working age that claim also work. The facts are very different from the illusion thats painted. Only a small amount of people who claim are working age unemployed. And even more so only a small amount of those are childless. A childless young adult has bore the brunt of cuts, eg. someone who is 28 years old and isnt working has likely had their income cut by about 60-75%. Is probably below the amount the government says they need to live on.