fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/se...g-prosecutions

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_rel...ving_offences/

Good ,about time this was looked at ,we cannot have emergency service personnel scared to respond to emergencies because they may get prosecuted if it goes wrong

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I actually weren't aware that they could be prosecuted. Seems very strange that they could be :confused:

Glad they now seem to be sorting that out though.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

They get prosecuted and in some cases sent to jail

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I agree there should be fewer but definitely not none

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

This is bull how can an emergency services driver kill a member of their own family or a friend when responding to a call, what utter tosh the person who wrote that is an idiot.

They should be prosecuted for killing someone such as an innocent pedestrian at high speed without using their blues and twos as per the below.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

You mis-understood the article. They are two separate cases.

1. Emergency service personell
2. People who kill a family member...

Perhaps the OP should have separated those sentences a bit more, but I understood what was meant :)

---------- Post added at 11:12 ---------- Previous post was at 11:11 ----------

Which, as that link showed, they are.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I see you have managed to read the article properly again ...not:rolleyes:

that refers to the 'nearest and dearest' when ,for example, a mum crashes on the school run and her daughter/son dies ,the proposal is that they have suffered enough and it is not in the public interest to prosecute

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

This just shows what an arse the law is in this country.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

He was justly convicted though.

What you need to bare in mind is the difference between accident and negligence

The negligent should be prosecuted every single time

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

That's why i linked to the CPS proposal ;)

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Why? Surely the Emergency Services should not be immune to prosecution when they respond to an emergency and act irresponsibly?

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

But we're not talking about "acting irresponsibly" are we. We're talking about accidents.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I'm not sure if it's an accident when an offence has been committed. There's rules that Emergency services need to adhere to. If they flout these rules and people get injured/die, then prosecution is in order in my opinion.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

That's the problem though ,acting irresponsibly can be very subjective and leave emergency drivers wondering if they speed to a heart attack or a bomb threat will they get prosecuted if a pedestrian gets in the way .That's what happened to PC Dougal ,he responded to a ANPR event hit a girl and got sent to prison .Turned out that the ANPR was at fault but he still got sent to prison for basically doing his job

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

your view on PC Dougal's innocence is not shared by all either

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

They are allowed to commit certain offences in the course of their job

http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/index.p...&Itemid=61#ble

---------- Post added at 12:24 ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 ----------

nor was his guilt

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

No. He was sent to prison because he killed someone whilst doing 94mph without blue lights and siren. If that's not irresponsible I don't know what is.

What's more, this wasn't even a life or death scenario. Just a suspect car. The fact that the ANPR was faulty is neither here nor there. He needlessly put lives at risk, and someone died. I think time in jail is more than warranted in this case.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Fair point. Missed that :)

Maybe.

http://www.ukemergency.co.uk/index.p...&Itemid=61#ble
That's worrying :confused:

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I think that refers to any policeman, fireman or ambulance driver, not Joe Public.

But don't Customs and Excise, Coastguard, Mountain Rescue, and a few others use blue lights as well?

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

He reacted to information given and followed accepted protocol .The decision, was his to make ,he made what he thought was the right decision given his local knowledge and got punished for it and because of cases like this many drivers are scared to pursue criminals or drive fast to emergencies and given that emergency drivers have a specific response time they are stuck between a rock and a hard place

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

That's not what the IPCC thought (which rather suggests he did not follow accepted protocol; I'm not sure why you even say that, because it's not mentioned anywhere in the article.)

I accept that there may be situations where time is essential and use of lights and sirens not advisable, but this does not appear to be one of those situations. Someone died as a result of a decision he made and he is held responsible. It seems right to me that where someone can put the life of others at risk in his or her job they cannot do so with impunity.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

http://www.met.police.uk/foi/pdfs/di...1020001110.pdf

it gives complete guidelines for the use of lights and sirens ,scroll to the bottom paragraph i cannot copy the document as it's security doesn't allow it


The problem faced by the driver is who and how the decision is made that the risk was unacceptable.Had the car being chased by PC Dougal been full of drugs would that then have been acceptable? .What happens if a ambulance driver refuses to speed and someone dies as a result ,is it acceptable that he chose to safeguard the general public but someone died as a result.The decision to drive at speed and break normal traffic rules is one faced by all emergency vehicle drivers and if they face prosecution for doing what is required of them if it goes wrong then what are they supposed to do ?

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

It says that the decision is ultimately upto the driver, but that the safety of the public and the MPS staff must remain the priority. I would think that approaching the crest of a hill without lights or sirens is not putting the safety of the public first.

Yes, it is a decision they have to make, and no-one is suggesting they should be prosecuted if 'it goes wrong', but rather if they demonstrably 'get it wrong'. Yes, there will be accidents in situations where the course of action is justifiable, and that will be just that. Accidents. Regrettable, but a consequence of having emergency services travelling at speed. However, that does not mean members of the Emergency Services don't have to justify their decision. If it turns out their decision resulted in an unacceptable level of risk given the circumstances, there should be consequences.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

It says a lot of things besides that and most is open to interpretation

That is the proposal ,at the moment it seems that the default position is to prosecute .

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

My god, the CPS are accepting that when you go faster and ignore certain road traffic laws accidents might happen??

About time as well.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

He got dent to prison for hitting her at 94 mph with no prior warning from his blue lights and siren which is he had thought to have switched them on may well have prevented him killing her.

Remember the was no valid reason for him to drive with such scant regard for the rules of the road simply for a ANPR hit which could have been simply an out of date tax disc, he was justifiably jailed for this offence and should have received longer as to act as a warning to other officers as to the consequences of driving in such a dangerous and lethal manner.

---------- Post added at 20:27 ---------- Previous post was at 20:26 ----------

Protocol does not tell him to drive at 94 mph without his blues and twos being on.

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:27 ----------

Still unacceptable to drive with such disregard for other peoples safety and the control room will tell a driver to back off if the is a danger to the public, but on this occasion he was the danger to the public and was rightly jailed.

Remember he still has a life to live unlike his victim who never stood a chance being hit at 94 mph.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

The police are fond of driving the wrong way down Clifton street in Cardiff which is a one way street. I haven't seen them do it for a while which is probably due to the nasty accident they caused last year when they sped the wrong way down Clifton street and hit a car as they emerged out of the junction. I didn't see the accident but I heard the bang a few streets away. I was on my way to the shops and people saying that as well as the one-way street and speeding they also went through a red light, that I can't confirm.

I don't know how badly hurt the woman was in the car they collided with but they swerved and hit a building, the fire services had to cut the roof off the car to extract the 3 officers.

I believe the police driver should be prosecuted in these circumstances.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

actually the ANPR reported the car stolen (falsely) and in that area a stolen car usually leads to a drug shipment ,a bank robbery ,a body dump ......

In some instances it does ,it is left up to the drivers discretion who uses his judgement and local knowledge ,that applies to fire engines and ambulance drivers as well

.

Empty wide road ,well lit ,stolen car ,late at night the 2nd best scenario for a chase if there must be one ,the only better scenario is a daylight empty road but how many of those do you see .The control room rely on the drivers info to decide if the chase goes ahead

I should add that i don't want to turn this thread into a debate on the conviction of PC Dougals conviction ,that has been done to death in it's own thread ,it is being used as a relatively current event that shows perfectly the dilemma faced by any emergency vehicle driver .They can pootle around at 30mph and let the fires burn ,the patients die and the crims get away or they can do their job without the fear of prosecution if things go wrong through no fault of their own

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

And turning them on may have alerted the driver of the potentially stolen vehicle.

Except the ANPR hit was for a stolen vehicle and not just a tax disc. I'll tell you what if your car ever gets nicked when you report it make sure that you mention to the Police they can't ever drive after it just in case. :dozey:

He hadn't gone into a pursuit either so the control room wouldn't have called off anything.

Have you actually seen the footage? If not it's here.

From when he turned the car to pursue there was approximately 30 seconds before the impact. In that time he had to follow the car, make the control room aware of what was happening, confirm why the car was wanted, make progress on it to confirm the number of persons within and that the VRM was correct and it wasn't a misread and then if necessary activate the lights and sirens.

He wasn't hooring the car for hours round an estate.

Anyway I've had enough of the presumption that emergency service workers will be charged for crashes when they are going to emergencies when it's clear its not entirely their fault. A bit of common sense is long overdue.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

It's quite clear in the rules that they are not allowed to drive the wrong way down a one way street but are allowed to go through a red light with care,so yes going the wrong way down a one way street would and should result in prosecution if it ended badly

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

:tu:

Yep. Some roads are perfectly safe to drive down at double or more the limit, others obviously are not. And sometimes depending on certain circumstances having lights and sirens on cause more problems than they solve.

Thats why before you can get to put them on there are courses lasting several weeks that are *tough* and have no guarantee of passing, plus to get in a traffic car there are more courses that are even longer and tougher.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

But instead he killed an innocent 16 year old and the presumption that the car was possibly stolen is still not reason enough to travel at 94 mph with no warning to other road users and it is lucky that he never killed more people on that fateful night so I hope his prosecution and imprisonment serve as a reminder to all of how easily speed kills especially when ample warning could have been given via the use of his blue and twos.

The video was posted in the original thread about his prosecution and even there it shows that the was no reason for his excess speed and reckless driving, remember this footage was part of the evidence used to prosecute him so luckily it never got lost or wiped unlike certain videos wiped by South Yorkshire Police many years back.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I should have also pointed out that the reason they do it is because the police station is half way down the one-way street.

Cyclists are also fond of coming the wrong way out of that street straight across the traffic with very little regard for their own safety, I have seen many do it and narrowly missed 2 of them but that's another story.:shocked:

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I am currently trying to find a survey that was done in the west end of newcastle about 10yrs ago about how much the police sirens disturbed people late at night ,i don't know if it will be on the net or not but it was done because of the noise complaints ,there where similar complaints about the copper chopper when we first got that

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I would rather hear a siren and see its blue lights as that will give me ample warning to enable me to avoid being hit by that vehicle which is better than being hit by said vehicle with no siren or lights at a speed likely to kill without any warning.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Or quite possibly the girl would still have walked out in front of the car, we'll never know.

At the end of the day it's up to each officer to decide how he drives, what precautions to use and when to back off.

I suppose that depends how you view it. From my perspective I don't think the driving was dangerous, obviously the jury and others see it differently just like the cop who was cleared of dangerous driving a few months back. Some people viewed the dashboard camera and thought it was dangerous while others thoughts it wasn't.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:09 ----------

Have you ever driven an emergency services vehicle at speed through a built up area? Trust me sometimes sirens and blue lights are like moths to a flame and cause more problems than they solve.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I agree but many don't .This case from 2005 where police were threatened with legal action for using the sirens and this from 2009 because people felt that hearing sirens and police helicopters makes london seem more violent than it is and there are many more examples besides those
so you tell me, what are they supposed to do ?

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Ignore the noise complaints and warn pedestrians there's a fast car being driven by a human being capable of killing someone driving through.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

If the is a visual and audio warning of the imminent approach of an emergency vehicle then most people will be aware and look out for that vehicle rather than ignoring those warnings and in doing so the pedestrian avoids the possibility of being killed and the driver avoids a potential prosecution, works for me.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

And if someone drunk walks in front of the emergency vehicle with all lights and sirens on should the driver still be prosecuted?

Right now they will be, no question about it. All this is doing is removing the presumption the driver will be prosecuted in almost all cases.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Which did not happen in Hayley's case even though the defence tried to use the fact that she had been drinking which still is not a reason for no forewarning given by the driver who was more intent on the chase. the adrenaline rush he must have got in anticipation of the chase would have soon disappeared once he hit his victim.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I wasn't talking about a particular case. In general if someone who was drunk walks in front of a Police car, ambulance or fire engine and is killed right now 99.9% of the time the driver of the vehicle will be prosecuted.

Do you think that is right?

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

A side issue here that is related.

When I learnt to drive my instuctor told me told me how to treat emergency vehicles.

On hearing the siren i use my mirrors to look for the lights, I then act accordingly I'll drive in a bus lane if required to allow them to pass, and if I make any lane change I'll indicate.

I've even flashed a fire engine to let him out of a junction even though I have right of way. On roundabouts I have pulled into the middle and stop before the junction to allow them on.

I have even been flashed by another driver who allowed me to turn right in front of him (going through a red light) to allow a fire engine access.

Simple tricks that some people don't do.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

All drivers will be prosecuted in those circumstances citing undue care and attention as the reason.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Undue care and attention because someone walked into the roadway... :rolleyes:

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

If a police car is called plus an ambulance the driver will pay at a minimum through increased insurance with a possible prosecution depending on the attending officer and that seems the likely option to be used.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

That is utter claptrap .

What we need is more support from the emergency service managers towards their personnel in such instances and common sense from the cps .Of course all accidents involving emergency drivers should be investigated but that does not mean they should all be prosecuted any more than you or I are if we hit a pedestrian who is at fault

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

You do realise that when I said all drivers that encompassed every driver out there including me and you.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

which is why i said it was claptrap ,you or I would not automatically get prosecuted

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

It will without doubt affect your insurance regardless of who is at fault.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused: what the hell are we taking about now ?,what has this thread got to do with insurance

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I also mentioned insurance post 46 above that is why.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

I give up

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

The text in your avatar seems rather appropriate at this point. :erm:

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

Ok getting away from insurance and back onto topic perhaps people can watch this and tell us why the driver of the police car ended up on trial for dangerous driving.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-16846289

Personally I don't think it was dangerous yet the officer still faced trial and the very real threat of losing his license, job and liberty.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

The problem is that pedestrians rarely seem to be considered at fault even when they have obviously not taken due care before wandering into the road.

I always say it "How many injured or killed pedestrians were on the pavement and how many were in the road"

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

http://www.itv.com/news/2012-11-01/too-scared-to-speed/

After just watching the above program I am shocked.

How in hell can people expect the emergency services to carry out their jobs when they could face prosecution at any given moment. This country is getting out of hand and its time to put these bloody liberals in their place.

As for the Brake organisation, I wont be giving them my support and can't wait for the day when one of them end up worse for ware because the emergency service didn't make it on time.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

It seems to me the emergency services are all too often damned if they do and damned if they don't. Having very recently been in a ambulance on the way to A&E with our youngest suffering from a severe allergic reaction I reckon every second they can save (without being negligent) is vital and I think most sensible people realise this.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

The default position seems to be charge the driver and let the courts decide. A little while back I was involved in an incident where a child ran out between two parked car into the side of my marked car.

I was going less than 20 MPH and there was (thankfully) only a minor injury to the kid. I was investigated by the local supervisors and the local traffic dept and found to be not at fault.

Two weeks later a Chief Inspector demanded I get charged with driving without due care and attention! :mad: Luckily my boss at the time fought my corner and I didn't end up on a charge but thats what the emergency services are up against, basically any accident will end up with someone trying to either make a name for themselves or avoid any accusation of a cover-up.

Re: fewer prosecutions for emergency services
 

You have my sympathy but I expect you know that already. :tu:

Sometimes I wonder where this sort of carp is going to end... :mad: