ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Hello,

I plan to have 2 x broadband services to my property

1 (Main) - Fibre Optic (BT Infinity 2) 76/20
2 (Secondary/1st Backup) - ADSL+ (Be*) 21/2.4
3 (2nd Backup) - 3G Dongle

I'm not to familiar with Dual-WAN routers so after a few suggestions and some time looking into them, i think i'm going to go with either DrayTek Vigor 2850n or 2850Vn. Judging by babis3g previous post this model router will be able to handle the FTTC speed i can get in my area. What I don't fully understand is how i set up the 2 broadband services to the router...

My understanding is that, I plug in both DSL (RJ11) cable from the socket into the dual DSL adapter that comes with the router and then the adapter goes into the VDSL/ADSL port on the router? If this is right will both broadband's sharing the same port effect throughput?

Do i need to use the Openreach Modem for BT Infinity?

During my research i came across this DrayTek Vigor 120 Do i need it?

Thanks in advance

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

:welcome: to Cable Forum. I've moved your post to a separate thread since BT's FTTC and Virgin Media Cable are two different systems and thus your situation could have different issues.

Firstly with regard to your choice of Draytek Dual Wan router, do check the various specifications. Some are designed to handle more connections / throughput / bandwidth than others, so make sure you opt for once suited to your LAN network needs.

Some Draytek routers have an ADSL modem inbuilt. If they do you probably do not need the Vigor 120. Some routers do not have an integral ADSL modem, thus you may need the Vigor 120.

The BE ADSL service can probably be run using the BE supplied modem / router (from which you would connect it's LAN port to the Draytek WAN 1 or 2 port), or via your own supplied modem i.e. the Draytek router - or 120.

The FTTC service probably has to use the FTTC service's supplied router, but again you should be able to connect the LAN port of that to a WAN port on the Draytek, in much the same as the VM Cable superhub LAN port is connected (at least in my office) to the Draytek.

You may need to check with BT / Be as to how your incoming telecoms services would arrive at your property. I suspect you would have two distinct phone services, one with the bundled FTTC line, and a completely separate service with the Be ADSL. I doubt they can both run over one incoming wire, indeed there would be little point in that since the one wire would be a common point of failure. Most dual broadband services are done for redundancy, rather than speed.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Neither service requires the supplied router but BT FTTC does require the supplied modem. Disconnecting the Openreach modem is a breach of the T&Cs.

I'd connect the LAN of the modem to the WAN of the router, and the Be line to the DSL port of the router as backup

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Thanks for both your replies.

I have checked the Spec etc for the router/s i have in mind and they both look to fit the bill. They can all do what i need them to do.

Between both your replies regarding setup i think i'll do BT openreach modem to the WAN port on router and ADSL+ to the DSL port.

But... What about the dual DSL adapter that comes with the router? Dual DSL adapter can i use this to free up the LAN4 (WAN2) port? so i connect 4 devices?

The adpater goes into the DSL (WAN1) port

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Don't use it.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

How come?

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

So what about people that use an all in one fibre, modem router. (I don't) are they in breech of the terms and conditions?

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Yes. And they do so at their own peril.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

It's not a breach of most T+Cs (ADSL providers like BT, TalkTalk and Sky do specify that you have to be using their equipment otherwise they will not support you), however if you have a fault with the product (speed or quality) Openreach will only validate the tests and subsequent fault raised with the modem they provide, hence why it stays plugged in all the time.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

It's a breach of Openreach T&Cs which apply to all fibre ISPs.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Just thought i'd point out that the access network for both of these services will run over the same phone lines, same cabinets and probably run to the same hubsite etc.

So if you are planning on doing this for resilience - you won't be much better off than having a single BT connection. The only thing that will be seperate is the copper wires running from your house to the local DP.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Actually no.

The FTTC line only runs as far as the cabinet. From there it's dependant on Openreach fibre, then BT equipment at the exchange and finally the BT Wholesale national network. The Be line runs through the same cabinet but that's as far as any shared distance goes. From there it's into Be's equipment and then Be's national network (which when not broken, is a fair deal better than some)

The only thing that is *not* separate is probably the copper wires running from the house to the DP (there's usually at least 2 pairs = 2 lines in each drop cable)

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

All ADSL providers are either resellers of BT connections (and therefore use their Backhaul), or they have their kit in Bt exhanges, and are therefore relying on the BT hubsites infrastructure (they have to be other wise they have no way of connecting to the BT access network). So although some have their own routers etc, they are still using BT power, cabling etc. the majority of faults are therefore likely to affect both connections.

I don't know enough about BE's network to say how resilient it would be - but my point was you'd be better off getting a VM connection and an infinity connection, for example, as they have completely seperate backhauls and access networks.

Also most faults happen on the access network - eg cabinets, copper wires, power etc - so even if thats the ONLY thing they have in common, it's still not good for resilience.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Well my experience differs. While I don't agree two completely different technologies (and consequently providers) would provide the best resilience, having two different ADSL providers (e.g. Be and BT) would alleviate 100% of the faults I've had since my service was installed.

Every single loss of service I've had on my BT Infinity service has been because of issues on the BTw backhaul network, usually in Manchester. I've had absolutely zero access network issues. Similarly during my year or so with O2/Be every fault I had was also due to backhaul issues, usually several hundred miles away, and never once did I have a single access network fault.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

I've worked as a faults analyst in several ISP's for 8 years. I am sure someone on this site could provide actual figures - but the main thing to understand is that all ISP's will have spent a lot of money on protecting their core / backhaul network's and will have alternate routes etc in place for when things do go wrong, and most of the kit will be in large, safely locked hubsites where very few people have access.

The cable in the street from your house to the exchange / hubsite etc isn't - it degrades, gets damaged by people building things, weather affects it, and sometimes gets simply vandalised and is by far the most vulnerable part of your internet connection.

You personal experience does not really give a good overall view of what to expect when you are trying to design resilient service for someone else.

Re: ADSL and FTTC Networking
 

Except it does when that's what I do (did) for a living. Sure core networks are physically more resiliant, but most outages are caused by operator error or deliberate action (e.g. maintenance) and complete failures of resilient hardware is indeed very rare. However, operator issues don't affect the access network nearly as much, people don't go around upgrading or re-routing the access network on a daily/weekly basis, and where they do cock up, it affects only one customer, not a hundred thousand.

While there may be more hardware faults on the access network, they usually affect no more than one individual or small group of people. Even a minor core network fault affects thousands to millions of users. If one core network fault occurs per year, affecting 1 million users, and access network issues happen a thousand times per day, that's still three times more end user outages caused by a single core fault than 365,000 access network faults.

Admittedly I didn't work for BT, but since my consumer experience of BT and VM both reflect my work experience, I'm not convinced. I've seen five 1m+ outages in the last 6 months, and with only 2000 Openreach engineers in the country, each one would have had to be fixing 14 per day, every day, seven days a week for there to have been more access network outages.