2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

One officer dead, another seriously injured during an arrest in Manchester

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19635239

RIP.

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http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereven...ve-dale-cregan

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

RIP. Horrible news.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

R.I.P.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Tragic news.

Let's hope the injured officer recovers.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Terrible news. My heart goes out to the relatives, friends and colleagues of the officers. May Dale Cregan rot in hell.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

A reminder to us all that each day an officer steps out for work, he/she is risking death. RIP indeed.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Thats terrible news.:(

RIP

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

I really, really hope its just the muddle that comes from breaking news but if two unarmed officers were sent to investigate a 'shots fired' call then heads should roll.

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Both have now died. :(

Unbelievably sad.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Presumably, a 'shots fired' call would not be described as a "routine operation"?

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Derek - if 2 unarmed cops (such as these officers) were on patrol and there were reports of shots fired in the next street or something close and their controllers knew they were there, what would their orders likely be?

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Yes, another stark reminder of what our police have to face all too often.

Very sad indeed!

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

6 C's.

http://www.policeoracle.com/news/SIO...nts_37194.html

In short do not get involved unless its completely unavoidable.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

:tu: Thanks for that.

Have you ever been in a similar situation that you can discuss?

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Yup. On several occasions we've been told to avoid certain areas while ARV's do a sweep, we've been basically evacuated from a large area of a town whilst there was an ongoing firearms incident and there has been two occasions where I've had to get involved and detain people as there was no other option (BB Gun and malicious call) due to the suspects and where I was at the time.

Re: Police shot in Manchester
 

Extremely sad that we have lost these Female officers. Both shot and killed in the line of duty.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I have the utmost respect for the police forces up and down the country, who put there lives on the line for us, EVERY member of this forum should be grateful for what they do on a daily basis.

It really angers me when we have members, yes members of this forum, who state that sometimes they sit on there backsides doing nothing and get paid too much money.

The hypocrites of governments past and present who make severe cutbacks in the police services, and complain about certain things that are being taken away from officers.

Police officers should get paid double for what they do.

Just to clarify something regarding a 'normal patrol' NO force would ever place there officers in danger, if a call comes in, checks are done right down to detail before an officer attends and address. EVERYTHING is done by senior officers to insure the safety of there officers.

All forces are in deep shock over this matter, and my thoughts are with the families of these officers. I say bring back the rope for murder - and l would gladly pull the trigger.

ALL officers should get our heartfelt respect for what they do and given everything for the job. Maybe those members who condemn the police service should think twice now about what they say.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Not just gunfire but also grenades thrown! A man has been arrested after walking into a Police station. Dale Cregan 29 who was wanted in connection of another gun and grenade attack and has also been arrested for the death of the two officers.

So sad that two unarmed officers have been killed.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

An absolutely horrendous crime terrible

RIP

I know I have never been a friend to the Law but my daughter has just started collage doing Public Services then onto Uni with the intention of joining the Police.I am proud and support her choice but seeing stories like this worry me terribly

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Apparently, the guy responsible, got someone to phone the police to report a burglary, when these two officers arrived on scene, which was considered just a routine incident, the suspect went out and shot them dead. Chief Constable just said in a statement that this was deliberate and nothing but Cold blooded Murder.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Guy sounds like a psychopath..

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

The ******* will only do about 15 years.

He should only come out in a box, no paraole, no compasionate release if he becomes ill.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

If he admits to doing it then string him up. *******s like that do not deserve to live.



RIP those two brave and courageous police officers and my thoughts are with there families at this time.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Considering he is now linked to at least 4 murders I certainly hope he won't get out in 15 years.

http://mancunianmatters.co.uk/conten...nted-criminals

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

The more I hear the more angry I get.

In my mind the inhabitants of the estate are culpable by knowing full well a suspect in a double murder was walking the streets and they protected him, he then showed the coward that he is by walking into a Police station to protect his own skin and how dare Theresa May and David Cameron mouth their empty words when they are planning to destroy the force and steal officers pensions.

RIP PC Bone and PC Hughes, 3 and 5 years service. :(

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Shocking.

RIP

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

As there is no REAL deterrent to murder in this country and that our prisons are no more than hotels, no one is worried about getting caught as the punishment no longer fits the crime

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

R.I.P. :(

How anyone can still argue for an unarmed police force in this country is beyond me....
This isn't the Britain of Dixon's of Dock Green,and it isn't the 1920's either.In fact,in the 20's coppers could take a firearm on patrol if they felt the need to...

Our police officer's are woefully under-equipped.... the stab vests are a joke,they don't even get propper CS gas and the telescope stick isn't up to much,either.
They need proper bullet-proof vests as other European forces wear and a Glock and Taser on their belt,imo.

The sad fact of life is that sometimes the law will be enforced from the tip of the gun.How are officers supposed to be ready for anything that 21st century crooks in Britain today throw at them when they don't have the proper gear to work with?
The overwhelming majority of police officers will never,ever need their gun.Most won't ever fire a bullet.Heck,most won't ever DRAW the gun. But every now and then the situation arises where an officer will need a sidearm.
Remember Derek Bird where cops were hiding away and couldn't confront him cause they had no gun?How is such a thing even acceptable?

It's all very well calling for the harshest sentences and even the death penalty for the animal who did this... great.Doesn't help PC Bone and PC Hughes though,does it?
We bemoan the tragic loss of cops when it happens but nothing ever changes about this idiotic policy of an unarmed police force,supposedly because it's tradition and we're apparently so proud of our cops being unarmed.... :rolleyes:

Why? Can anyone tell me? All I see is two more dead human beings and a policy that was out of date 40 years ago....

We really need to get over ourselves on this issue and give our police officers the tools and support they need to do the job!

So,I for one will be writing to my MP and tell him how I feel....

R.I.P PC Bone / R.I.P. PC Hughes :(

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Very very sad news they just went on a burglary call apparently and were met by an ambush with a grenade and a gun.:(

My condolances go out to their family and friends at this terrible time.:(

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

If he does not get life without parole then the is no justice in this country.

He probably thinks this will make him top dog in prison hopefully someone with a shiv will sort him.





R.I.P PC Bone / R.I.P. PC Hughes

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

To be honest, it's not clear to me that this would have ended differently had the officers been armed. They walked into an ambush involving a gun and grenade. I'm not sure how you defend yourself against that.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

you arm all Police then any petty criminal will have a gun

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Maybe it wouldn't have ended differently,maybe it would... my point is to give the police the tools they need to do the job.
I know that german police attend burglary calls with their guns drawn,as do French police,US police and probably other forces,too.... maybe that is what is needed?

No,they won't. However petty crooks already carry knives,Samurai swords and what not.... what do cops have to go up against such lethal weapons? Baton? Spray?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Balls. Do all petty criminals carry a knife or baseball bat now? Does every petty criminal in Northern Ireland carry a gun?

99.99% of the time the Police will never need to use or draw it but for that 1 times you need it it's better the Police have a gun rather than end up dead in the street.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Amen! :clap:

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Problem is with the 'Arm the Police' argument is that you can still have Armed Police, it will not stop Criminals on their path to serious crime. America is a fine example of this.

But I do agree Police do not seem appropriately equipped. To attend any kind of incident with a CS Spray and a plastic stick I wouldn't feel safe with just these Aids.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Why always have the US as an example... most other European countries are armed.And No,it may not stop them on their path to serious crime,but it can stop them dead in their tracks while committing it.

It can also save an officers life,or a Mop's life. Sometimes it is just a tool to make a lawbreaker comply.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I honestly don't think 'Stop or I'll shoot' tactics will work in this country. simply because we've never had it previously.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Really? So when you star at the business gun of a Glock 17 you will continue with whatever you're doing? I don't think so....

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Because it is the US where the Police carry guns all the time and it shows there that it doesn't matter if you Arm Police in the same way they do in the US, because it will not stop hardened criminals.

But I am also saying that sending Police with little defensive Aids to any kind of incident where it not known how potentially dangerous it may be is also not right.

Police should have the equipment to do their jobs and be able to save themselves from danger.

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

There were Two Rainbows over Mottram tonight where these Officers were killed.

Facebook group has over 60,000 likes:- http://www.facebook.com/RipFionaBoneAndNicolaHughes

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

So would you if you was a copper be willing to face a ******* armed with a

Knife
axe
samurai sword
Gun

and have nothing to defend yourself with other than a bloody stick and some pepper spray, i know i would not ???

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Strange - in all the years I lived and worked in Germany, I never heard of this....

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I think the US is an inappropriate comparison as everybody owns guns there. In most of Europe, the police carry guns but gun ownership by civilians is severely limited. Police on the continent don't run around with their guns drawn half the time. It's actually pretty rare for them to draw their gun.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Sorry,you're wrong...
Robbers,burglars,rapists and what not get shot all the time before they can do more damage or get away.That applies for Europe as well.
Again,why the States as an example? German,French,Italian,Spanish cops are armed at all times as well.In fact German police cars will have an MP5 routinely in the boot.Italian Carabinieri carry MP's,too. I just got back from Rome two weeks ago and had good chats with them.,wasn't threatening at all.
Yes,agreed.So what tool should that be,in your opinion?
Nice touch! :)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

The German statistics seem to disagree with you...

Link

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Please let's not argue..Two people are dead who should not be and us ranting about whether to arm the police and that if they had been armed they might still be alive is not going to bring them back.

RIP and my condolences to the families.








I'm not saying there shouldn't be a discussion about arming the police just that it might be nice to address it in another thread.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Absolutely true - my apologies....

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I've lived and worked in Germany for 25 years and have seen a burglary in progress while working as a night porter at a hotel.I called the police.They drew their guns after climbing the roof of the property next door and shouted:'Police,come out with your hands in the air',or words to that effect. :)

What is your position on the issue,Hugh?
Ever felt threatened by german police? I always found them to be friendly but firm. I have seen them draw guns on suspects and never felt uneasy... I was happy to see armed cops that evening at the hotel. :)

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No,they don't. Those warning shots will have prevented perps from acting out. Firearms work and have an effect.Just drawing will have an effect.

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Ok. :)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Did arming police in N Ireland have an impact of reducing attacks on officers? (not sarcasm/rhetoric - serious question)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I would say so. The figures aren't exact but comparing two roughly similar sized forces (PSNI and Strathclyde) in an average year Strathclyde has 4000 assaults on officers and the PSNI has 3000, which will include the annual marching, rioting season and terrorist attacks.

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http://www.policefed-ni.org.uk/Speec...-2012-(1).aspx

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http://www.granthamjournal.co.uk/new...asers-1-271466

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Regarding the issue of arming all police officers it would be wrong as from inception, the police have not been armed. The day every officer in the UK mainland is armed policing will no longer be by consent as laid down by Robert Peel. While I'm not privy of the amount of armed police, there are more than you think.

I don't think even if the two officers were armed the outcome would have been any different as Gregan had a stock of russian made grenades which he did use on the day.

It turns out that Dale Cregan 29 was on Police bail from June, he had been charged for a pub shooting where he had gone to kneecap a gang member, but it had gone wrong when the intended victim was hit in the neck.

The system is wrong to allow a person who has been charged with a firearms offence. They should never be given bail, he should have been kept on remand until he was either cleared or sentenced for that offence.

It would seem that Facebook has again been used for offensive remarks. :mad:

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

looking through this thread i am left wondering how the arming of these two officers would have helped obviously the guy had a gun but he also had a grenade.

There was an american lady on sky newspaper review last night who said she would hate to see routine arming in this country as evidence from her own country seemed to suggest it would just ramp the violence upward.

On a different note it was very poignant to see the two rainbows over the house last night i thought of those two officers and the muderer who lured them there and felt very sad.:(

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Firstly, RIP to the officers. :(

I too have to question whether routing arming of the police could have prevented these murders. I doubt it. If they were lured to the property, on which the police say they had no prior intelligence, it seems to me that the offender always had an intention to kill. All that might have changed with routine arming, is for the murders to become "suicide by cop" :(

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

"Polizei, kommen mit den Händen in der Luft" ... or something.

What you're describing here serves to underscore the fundamental difference between policing in the UK and just about everywhere else.

If you advocate a similar approach by British police, then you're calling for far more than simply allowing them to wear a side arm as a matter of routine. You're calling for a serious shift in the rules governing the use of police firearms, and that in turn calls for a shift in the relationship between the police and the public.

AFAIK at present firearms are not deployed unless there's a reasonable suspicion that the suspect is armed. It's the same basic principle of meeting force with comparable force that allows a British homeowner to blow a burglar's head off with his own shotgun. It's the same because Peel's of model of policing by consent, with the police officer simply a uniformed civilian with few powers over and above those of anyone else. Allowing police officers to draw a firearm without any cause other than to force compliance on a suspect puts things on a totally different footing.

In many other places policing is a paramilitary operation. It's not uncommon to see police officers in Europe routinely dressed in the sort of gear you don't see in the UK unless there's a full-scale riot in progress. I don't think we need to create that kind of separation between those of us who wear a uniform and those of us who don't.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Gun crime will increase more Police officers will die in the line of duty if they all carry guns , It does not take a genius to see that surely?

Guns would not have saved these offices and if they were armed there is a good chance 2 guns would have ended up in the criminal underworld

Look at America in some states everyone has a gun do the Police carrying guns stop crime? No and look at Texas they have the Death Penalty they love using it yet still there are murders

Also look at what happened recently where 1 man killed another then a Police officer killed innocents.

I do not think all the Police should be armed no way no how

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not many carry guns due to the heavy penalty in getting caught with one. If they thought there was a good chance of being faced with someone with a gun that will change. Some criminals really do not care and getting a gun is not hard not that I have tried

As for the majority of Police work they are trained to defend against the knife if attacked with an axe or sword the just keep your or a car between you and the assailant while you call for back up

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

What warning shots? "Warning shots" and "shooting someone in the arm to disable them" only happens in films/tv, not in real life - when trained with firearms, you are trained to hit the biggest target (the trunk) with at least two rounds.

If you fire a "warning shot", where do you think the bullet goes? Fire it into the air, our friend gravity will bring it back down on to someone/something; fire it into a wall/the ground, it will ricochet.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Everyone is going off the main question here.

The two officers went to a normal call of burglary, checks that were carried out and it was normal, what has happened is that *******s have brought officers to an address, this evil ******* and come out into the street and in cold blooded murder has shot two defenceless officers.

They probably pressed there emergency button, BUT these brave officers were shot dead by a callour killer, who should hang.

The police forces in the UK have tactical armed units that would have gone there first, if this address had been known for weapons.

The people that have help this evil monster should also stand trial for murder as they are as guilty as the main man.

As, to arm the police services in the UK, would not happen, all forces have a well trained armed response teams that deal with this sort of crime - but they have to get the information first.

This thread is about the two police officers shot dead, NOT about wether police officers should be armed - well they are- there called rapid response unites.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Presumably, those warning shots will be the ones mentioned in the link you posted earlier:

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

These police women were ambushed, there is no need for a "lets give bobbies guns" knee jerk reaction, as if it would have made any difference whatsoever.
Only a fool would actually believe that possessing a gun makes someone impervious to being ambushed.

Its incredible the number of US police killed each year, despite them being armed:
http://www.odmp.org/search/year

Remember that many of the police shot in the US will have been shot with their own firearm. From 2000 through to 2010, 511 US police officers were killed by gunfire in the line of duty.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

The US is a different situation however, where everyone is armed the police needs to be. Not so in this country.

There are countless instances of accidental shootings by police in the US, everything from mistaken identity to dogs being shot by police.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...g-address?lite
Its not exactly rocket science, when you arm the police and firearms are present at every call out, more people are going to die.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Nonsense. In Peels day the original officers were routinely armed with a sword and firearm, until relatively recently officers on night duty could sign out a gun and arm themselves.

And in a previous thread the number of authorised firearms officers was shown, it wasn't a lot at all.

He was never charged, they were still gathering evidence.

It might be callous of me but I'd prefer that than having two dead officers, from an ambush point of view they might still have died but at least they would have had a chance.

Eh? When was this?

And how long might that be. Struggling with an axe man waiting for backup is not fun. I've been in that position and firearms officers could easily be 1/2 hour away, that's a long time to run round a car in circles.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Not everybody in the police would be up to the task of handling a fire arm.

Police should not be armed unilaterily.

I think the present system of Armed Response Units is the right balance.

Give them batons, pepper spray, even tasers - but not guns.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

the american case recently its posted here somewhere

You will be ok you do your running :-)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Are you saying the public in the UK (let's not forget the Police are all members of the public) are so useless they can't be trusted the same way virtually every other country in the world is? That a Police recruit in England, Wales and Scotland is less capable than one in Northern Ireland?

The army manage to train 16 year olds to handle pistols, rifles and heavier weaponry quite well, why would a Police officer, older and with more life experience be any less safe?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

When we had an armed raid this way in the town there were so many armed police officers, I didn't know we had so many police let alone armed Police.

Regarding Dale Cregan being charged I must have misread the article as I can only find he was arrested now.

It would now seem Cregan shot the wrong person and then took the father out. Having to deal with guns is bad but now they are throwing grenades.

Did they not hold a firearms ticket that not all officers would hold? My brother in law held a firearms ticket in the Met but never had cause to hold or use a gun in service.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Yep, it was a bit more relaxed then and as long as you could show you knew which end went bang was enough to get a firearm checked out in some cases.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/se...er-gun-weapons

Not that many, a large chunk of them will be in the Met so even less for the rest of the population.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I've read this a couple of times now, and I can only come to the conclusion that you appeal to vagueries because you really have no substantive arguments against equipping police with firearms. :)

Personally, I'm no fan of guns, and I like the idea that police don't carry firearms, but like Will21st, I have spent many years on the continent where police do carry firearms as standard. Like Will, I did not find it threatening in any way, and contrary to what you're suggesting it is actually extremely uncommon to see police officers dressed in riot gear, be it routinely or otherwise. I don't recall any harrowing statistics of scores of innocents being killed by the Police either. As suggested in Hugh's link, it's actually quite rare for the police to use their guns.

Like I said, I like the idea that the Police don't carry firearms as standard, but it really wouldn't bother me one bit if they started doing so.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I know a fair few cops who have jumped to become Police in Australia and Canada and a couple of other places. In all cases they have managed to transfer from being unarmed to carrying a pistol without becoming trigger happy lunatics.

One in particular has used his taser at least three times but never had to even draw his glock. He's gone from being moderately anti-gun to thinking that going on patrol without it is unthinkable despite never having needed it.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Well,I read a couple of years ago that two cops in Frankfurt shot an axe-wielding thug in the legs,so it doesn't just happens in films... but I know what you mean. In fact I just found a website with many other examples of cops shooting suspects mainly in the legs to stop them! I hope your Deutsch is still up to scratch,ja? ;)

http://www.schusswaffeneinsatz.de/Fa...izeibeamte.pdf
and about the warning shots.... if possible police will fire them into the ground (grass,mud and the like), otherwise in the air afaik.

In case you're wondering how I know so much about german police... apart from living there for a long time I also have friends in the german police. You know what they think about their UK counterparts being unarmed? They think it's madness... and I agree. Having to shoot a crook if push comes to shove is part of the job,sometimes it's the only play left to protect the public.... sad but true.

Why not? Why this deep distrust? How does a baton and spray help against a knife or axe-wielding thug or someone with a firearm? How does a taser help with that?
How will a cop protect an innocent member of the public if the crook is willing to do serious damage? Sometimes lethal force is all that's left.

Thank you,well put. :)

That's the thing that most people don't seem to realise... a tiny,tiny minority of cops will ever use their gun....
however I do believe it is a legitimate tool to force compliance,if necessary. Like I said in my earlier reply,my german cop friends find the idea of an unarmed police force ludicrous.... I agree.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

No idea what point you're trying to make there as you haven't made it very well. I don't think the public, and you can correct me here, are armed......generally. I would also assume that the very vast majority of the public, and most of the police for that matter, have even handled a weapon let alone fired one.

Do you think handling a fire arm is just a case of training somebody how to pull the trigger?

I doubt we could afford the continuous training and assessment required to have all of our officers armed, or do you suggest something like a 3 day training course with a refresher every year?

I certainly wouldn't want someone with that level of training walking the street with a side arm.

Then are you also suggesting that only those that pass the relevent training and psychological aptitude test are allowed to carry a sidearm? It can't be a matter of choice you either arm all police or keep the current system.

I would argue we would lose many serving officers that a) didn't want to carry a weapon and b) failed to pass the required level to carry a weapon.

Then what about those that actuall fire their weapons, I can already see the claims for PTSD and being pensioned off fully filing in.

I have to question the motives of the beat officer that requests the use of a weapon, probably been watching too many american cop shows.

Possibly, but the PSNI and it's forebears have always carried weapons and the public are used to that, and the recruits that join know that they will have to carry a weapon.

Most UK officers did not join expecting to carry a weapon, unless they specifically put themselves forward to do so.

This is not apples with apples.

Happily go on patrol in Helmand would you?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

It really isn't - it just happens to be something you agree with. I don't have time to reply fully at the moment as I'm writing an article about the distractions of internet access in the office. ;)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

More than once I have been asked if its true that UK cops do not have guns.
Folks just find it amazing. Me I find it extremely brave.
Other descriptions do come to mind. However this is not the time or place to use them .

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I'd really love to know how many times the police, in the UK, actually do come up against "axe wielding thugs"

Well with a range of approx 35ft unless the knife and axe wielding thugs are the last of the mohicans you should be able to stop them.

Someone else who thinks Hill Street Blues was a factual dosumentary series............Let's be careful out there.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Yes,the words were something like that. I was glad they weren't for me!:erm:

By the way,the burglar(s) wasn't caught.They didn't even see anyone,maybe they were long gone,who knows?
What matters was that the cops had the means to go in with the tools to protect themselves and me best they could.
Well,why shouldn't they wear a sidearm as routine? It's about having the tools for the job. I've said this before,a cop having to use his gun is so rare,but when (s)he needs it should have it. I expect the police to be able to deal with threats when they arise,that's what they do. In this country,police have to run from armed threat and leave the public vulnerable. During the Derek Bird shooting some officers could have stopped him but had to retreat due to being unarmed...
By the time the ARV arrives it's too late.How is that acceptable?
That is another thing that is just wrong,imo. Remember the guy who was wielding a machete on the streets of London and it took twenty or so constables to take him down? Those constables had to defend themselves with dustbin lids!
Normally a scenario like that could be resolved with two cops with Glocks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw

How is this acceptable?

What about those poor officers who were attacked by a dog and almost torn to shreds? They were helpless and had to wait for an ARV.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qhSwyCgx00

How is that acceptable?

Really? Regular cops in full riot gear? Where? I've been to Spain,Italy and Germany in the past 2 months and haven't see that anywhere. What I did see however were nice,chatty,approachable cops in nice,functional uniforms (unlike UK police uniforms which seem to be a cobbled-together mess).
I really don't understand this separation you refer to? European police are just as nice and approachable as over here.Heck,I found US cops to be great a lot of the time. If you are polite and up-front most cops will be the same to you. Respect goes a long way.
However I also think that as persons of authority cops need to be a little bit 'detached'. They have to be. They enforce the law. If need be against your will.If need be at the tip of a gun.

And as one last thing,this 'policing by consent' thing.... sorry,I just don't get that. I think it's another lie we like to tell ourselves. Police don't police by consent. They keep the peace and enforce the law,wether you or I like it or not.

Considering how utterly rude and disrespectful so many of the public seem to be towards the police here,I think a re-evaluation of public relations between police and public may be in order.

R.I.P WPC Bone
R.I.P.WPC Hughes :(

---------- Post added at 15:12 ---------- Previous post was at 15:10 ----------

Yeah,and because it just happens to be something you disagree with it isn't well put? ;)

---------- Post added at 15:23 ---------- Previous post was at 15:12 ----------

Police get attacked by people with knives,baseball bats,Samurai swords and sometimes even axes.... how do you suggest they defend themselves effectively?
You know a taser doesn't always work,right? Sometimes a taser isn't enough to stop someone.
Also,there's no need for your sarky comments.I've spent a long time in societies where police are routinely armed.My observation is that it is a good thing.Which by the way is the observation in most of the rest of the planet's police forces.
By the way...never seen Hill Street Blues.

Reality informed my opinion,not fiction :)

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I've been asked this many times too. "Don't need them over there, isn't that great?" is my reply. I then follow on to say (tongue in cheek) "You see that's one reason why I moved to Britain, the Brits are freedom loving. They sure do know what freedom means.". That usually winds them up nicely.

Next time one of your American friends asks you if its true that UK cops don't carry guns, just consider it your duty to inform them that from September 2000 through to September 2010, 511 American cops died as a result of hostile gunfire.
In that same time frame, just three British policemen (excluding N. Ireland) died as a result of hostile gunfire. Amazing what we can achieve when we apply a little common sense to gun ownership.

http://www.denverpost.com/nationworl...250?source=rss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_line_of_duty

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

How often?

As I have set out previously, there many non-lethal methods available.

there's no guarantee a weapon will always fire.

I think there is.

It was really good.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

too often


Yeah,ask a cop how effective they are... don't just consult your Hill Street Blues
Yeah,but a bullet or two will stop the perp.... unlike a taser,which was my point.
Good for you.Got anything to actually contribute? You know,something based in reality,not Hill Street Blues.

I bet it was.Shame it seems to be your only point of reference in this discussion.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Sky

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Just to clear up a point they are both close family & friends, & it great that guns are not thought to be needed in the UK.

Personally I have no problem with the police carrying them & when I am home in the states I am happier to see them on the street with a gun than with out. I have never suggested that they should however be routinely used in the UK. Different cultures . As I have stated before & just to be clear - When in the States have a gun in my home (Before you ask it is kept at a firing range when I am here) & yes it has been used in - anger / self defense -he fired first & missed said it was meant to missed on reflection it was so wide as to be true , I missed - dark- not that awake. Was caught by police, He thought that as I was a "brit" i would be an easy target. Had only just moved into that house,I moved on after that. First thing we did was put Old Glory up the flag pole :) Mistake putting a Union & a Welsh flag before :shocked:

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Just a quick google, comes up with this wiki page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...e_line_of_duty

Remembering that it's a wiki page so don't expect to be 100% accurate, but good enough for this forum.

Since 1900, amongst other causes:

approx 24 police have been killed by being stabbed

Approx 71 police have been killed by being shot (not including PSNI)

and approx 21 have been killed in police car pursuits.

so in 112 years 96 police have been shot or stabbed.

If you look at this site:
http://www.citizensreportuk.org/repo...-firearms.html

From 2005 the police have shot and killed 20 civillians, and of those 20 civillians 8 either had no weapon on them or had an imitation weapon.

Not such a good strike rate.

and that's only the last 7 years.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Just a thought have "they" now stated they were shot- last heard talk of killed by a grenade. If so you really have little chance, even with a gun of winning that "fight"

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Regarding the principle of "Policing by Consent" ... for those that profess not to understand it, yet are keen to jump with such enthusiasm into a debate which hinges on it, can I suggest a little background reading - the sort of reading that can be done after the most perfunctory of Googles:

The Nine Principles of Policing: http://www.civitas.org.uk/pubs/policeNine.php

"Policing by consent" means running the operation in a way that causes the public to co-operate because the public agrees with and supports the police and not because they have at the back of their minds that they might face violence, or the threat of it, if they do not.

An observation on how "Policing by consent" was seen to have applied during the recent Games in London:

http://www.acpo.police.uk/ThePoliceC...rdfromSHO.aspx

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-19641398

An interesting read, which also provides some background to the current situation. Interestingly, according to a 2004 poll, 47% of the public support the police being routinely armed. According to a 2006 poll, 82% of police officers opposed...

---------- Post added at 16:26 ---------- Previous post was at 16:24 ----------

The BBC now says 'gun and grenade attack', so it's not clear.

---------- Post added at 16:30 ---------- Previous post was at 16:26 ----------

I think that the point that Will and I are making is that it's not impossible for an armed police force to 'police by consent'. It really isn't the case that most continental police forces consist of gun toting idiots that command no respect from the public other than through the fact that they carry a firearm.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I'm suspicious of any poll which asks such a specific question using such vague terminology. As the poll is being bantered by the BBC as being evidence that 47% of people (polled) support giving the police guns, it seems like the poll must have been asking a specific question.
Unless I'm missing something, "armed" does not exclusively refer to firearms. The poll suggests 47% of people support arming police, but nowhere in the poll is the word "firearm" or "gun" mentioned. I find that rather odd.

http://www.icmresearch.com/pdfs/2004...orism_poll.pdf

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I hadn't looked at the actual poll, but looking at it, it does seem that the wording is a little ambiguous. It's also worth bearing in mind that the wider poll is about what measures are acceptable in combatting terrorism, which is likely to skew the results. Having said that, it wouldn't surprise me if approximately half the population wouldn't object to the police routinely carrying firearms.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Context is king, as Sparkle rightly pointed out. If you ask people if they think the polis should be routinely armed at the same time as you're making them remember all the nasty things terrorists can do, it's not surprising if you get a healthy level of support for the proposition.

Note, however, that the BBC also observes this afternoon that the idea of routine arming enjoys really rather low levels of support amongst the police themselves, comments from serving officers in this thread notwithstanding.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Yes, I think I pointed that out myself.

Yes. I specifically mentioned that in an earlier post. I have no beef with it either way. As I said earlier, I like the idea that the police doesn't carry arms routinely, but I'd have no problem with it if they did. I think it's largely a matter of what you're used to, and there are many continental police forces that have fine relations with the public despite carrying arms. I know. I lived there for around 30 years. Police forces don't suddenly turn into ninja-style paramilitary units when they carry guns.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

The question about arming cops people have forgotten is this.

Do they all want to be armed. I would guess many wouldn't.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Does that poll include the pen pushers,ACPO types and other office dwellers who don't serve the front line? I would guess so. Just go to the usual police blogs to see the general mood amongst the front line.

---------- Post added at 13:12 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

Ok,so those officers shot or stabbed had no means of effectively defending themselves.... being armed they may have stood a chance.
Many more cops who were injured in the line of duty could've gotten away unharmed if they had the right tools to do the job.

Also,being shot having an imitation firearm is one of the possible consequences of carrying an imitation firearm.That doesn't go against the police.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Polls that ask the public if they want to see Police armed are IMO largely redundant.

You ask 1000 people if they should be awarded £1m by the government as their next birthday present, they're likely to all say yes however that does not necessarily mean it should happen.

Yes it's a different context but in this sort of situation it would be what the police want, not just the public. The population is full of (well-meaning) armchair experts who think they know what would happen in a particular scenario, but have no actual idea of what it's like.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Sorry can not pick up quote referring to Police blog

Which is ?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

So you think the public in practically every other country in Europe,or the West for that matter,behave and abide by the law only because they may get shot or threatened with a gun if they don't?
Sorry Chris,you are smart enough to know that what you typed there is just plain nonsense.
Policing by consent is such a lofty concept,but what does it exactly mean in the real world? By your definition I take it that you object to the police carrying spray and batons as well,yes? Those are used when you don't comply,are they not?
It's funny that you should insinuate,without giving me the time of day to address me directly,that I do not understand the principle of 'policing by consent'. I guess I am in good company as that very principle is being questioned and talked about by front line cops on the Gadget Blog.

By the way,did you know that French police have to salute you before talking to you? They are also armed.... but I guess they are oppressive and could turn into violent thugs at a moments notice,too? After all,they don't police by consent,right? Neither does German police,right? Spanish,Italian? All rent-a-thugs?
Don't think so.

Policing by consent means that you consent to being policed,not how you are being policed. In fact,I don't see any difference to principles of policing in Germany.Or the states.Or wherever.....

---------- Post added at 13:27 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Inspector Gadget

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:27 ----------

This seems to be something parts of the British public are unwilling or unable to understand. Somehow British policing is 'special' and not being armed is a tradition worth holding onto out of some sort of pig-headed nostalgia.

I wonder though how Manchester could ever have gotten to be known as Gunchester? I mean,since the cops are unarmed criminals don't use guns,do they?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

The police have arrested a 22 year old male from the Netherley area over a Facebook page that praised Greegan and wrote: he should be awarded an OBE and went on to suggest more officers should be killed. There are others who have set-up Facebook pages, so they may be getting a Knock at the door shortly.

I'm so glad the Police can act and arrest people who write such things on social media sites.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Whilst I deplore the comments made. I start to wonder more & more about "free speech" and this country becoming a heavily censored police state.
This should start a triad no doubt.
However I leave the point in the air. :erm: perhaps not giving them "oxygen" would be a better line to take ?

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Good afternoon Will. You perhaps missed the post yesterday in which I specifically pointed out that I wasn't giving anyone the time of day due to other pressing commitments. That's easily done; it was a very brief post. However, if the lack of a quote box in my eventual reply gets you this cross, you should perhaps re-think your use of this medium to carry on discussions. I've seen far worse. As it happens I intended to address various posts I had earlier read and didn't have the time to fiddle about multi-quoting. Clearly you got the gist anyway, so perhaps you should wind your neck in a bit and stick to the issue at hand.

And on that subject - I have not insinuated anything about your understanding of 'policing by consent'. You yourself said in an earlier post that you 'don't get it'. Perhaps you would like to clarify that statement. In the absence of any clarification, I think it's quite reasonable for me to reply with the working assumption that when someone says 'policing by consent', you in fact 'don't get it'. It's not rocket science.

Both you and Daniel have made constant references to various foreign police forces and protest that they don't turn into oppressive maniacs just because they have guns. Frankly, I don't care what they do or do not do. My sole concern is the UK, because that's where I live.

You refer to the tools necessary to do the job, rarely required but good to have when the time comes. My view, as one who consents to being policed, is that lethal firearms are so rarely required that the streets are safer if they are not being carried about in numbers. I've come across statistics for the number of officers shot with their own weapons in various other places online over the past couple of days. I suspect you have too, so I'm not proposing to go digging for them again now.

Further, with reference to your German anecdote yesterday, I like living in a society where lethal force cannot be applied, or threatened, where there is not reasonable excuse to do so. I don't care whether that's how they do it in Germany. It's not how we do it here. And, though it has been said over and over again this week, no amount of firepower would have prevented the ambush which resulted in the deaths of the two PCs this week. Whatever routine arming *might* be a solution for, it *isn't* a solution to the kind of situation that we witnessed this week.

Gunchester, I expect, is so called for the same reason as Shottingham gained that nickname a few years ago. It's a specific place with a specific problem. Increased use of armed patrols, plus other tactics I'm not qualified to speculate about, might well address this specific issue in these specific places. Routine arming of the police, which by definition would include foot patrols in leafy suburbia and the outlying villages as well as the problem zones, would not solve the problem.

Unarmed police who have access to firearms units where required is as far as I'm concerned a far more intelligent response to the question of where, when and how lethal force should be available to the police. It might not be as straightforward as simply giving every officer a gun, but it is safer.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

^^

Especially since in scenarios such as this ambush having a gun would not protect the police either...

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

you would have to ask the Police Federation, who represent 124,000 Constables, Sergeants, Inspectors, and Chief Inspectors, that question, as they carried out the poll....

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Agreed, I am amazed that some think that they cannot be traced on the Internet.

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

I reckon the evil sod new that in the near future he was going to end up inside for the rest of his life so he set out to kill these police women so that when he gets inside he will live like a king

I'm always against using America as a argument for or against arming the police because the yanks have a constitution that gives everyone the right to have a gun ,i think it's been restricted a lot more these days but back in the day everyone carried a gun so it was natural to arm the police.Our history is a little different and we have no such right to own or carry a gun so it has never been required for the police to be routinely armed .

I think things are vastly different these days ,the ease in getting hold of deadly weapons like guns and grenades makes it almost inevitable that one day soon police will be armed routinely imo

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Unlike the 2 police officers he murdered, and that's what annoys me the most that he will continue to live and they will not. :mad:

Re: 2 Police Officers shot and killed in Manchester
 

Good afternoon Chris. Neck wound in and please accept my apologies. ;) :o:
'Policing by consent' doesn't just apply to UK police.... those rules are quite simply applicable to other countries as well.At least the ones I've lived in.

'I don't get it' is referring to how anyone can assume that 'policing by consent' means 'unarmed police' ?
Sure the police shouldn't go overboard,but an appropriate response is necessary,and police need the right tools for the job.Sometimes that is a firearm,unfortunately.
Yes,and maybe the UK needs to learn a thing or two from others? Cause quite frankly,British policing isn't what it used to be,sadly.

By the way,do you realise that german policing was actually modelled on British policing?
You consent to being policed,correct. The **** in custody doesn't. Full Stop. He has a firearm and a grenade. So,how should police respond? As rare as these instances may be,a gun is just another tool in the arsenal.

By the way,do you actually consent to telescope sticks and pepper spray or whatever it is our cops have to make do with? Those tools are also used on those who don't 'consent' to their being policed.
Ok,so continental police just shoot anyone,do they? Serious question.
Also,how do you know that 'no amount of firepower' would have saved the WPC's? You do realise a taser was found lying on the ground? You can't win a firefight with a taser.... but you can win it with a Glock,especially when it's two against one. Of course we don't know the injuries they sustained through the grenade. So it is all speculation.
What isn't speculation however is that Derek Bird shot 9 more people after being confronted by unarmed police. No ARV in sight...

What I was getting at was the irony that British cities gained those nicknames when apparently British criminals don't use guns cause the police don't have them.... not the case,I think.
I know that Manchester and Nottingham's gun culture is very much prohibition related and will not dwell further on the issue.
Your 'intelligent' response is in fact unworkable and costs lives. The question of 'where,when and how' lethal force should be available to police is sometimes a decision that needs to be made in seconds....
see the WPC's shooing , Derek Bird, the recent example of cops being mauled by a dog in London and many others as situations where a sidearm is needed there and then,not some commander in a control room somewhere taking precious minutes to decide while police officers lives are on the line.

I see your points but unfortunately they are invalid to me. In fact I don't really see where your concerns come from other than never having been exposed to an armed police force over a reasonable period of time.
I've had both and my conclusion is that British policing is outdated and not fit for purpose. I just think it's incredible that even the corpses of police and public alike are not sufficient to sway those who make the decisions....

Let's see how many more have to die.... after all it took a fair few stabbings before stab vests were issued,I just pray to god that not many more police will have to die before we 'consent' to give our boys and girls the tools they need to police the UK effectively.