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-   -   Sick on annual leave? Just take some more. (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33688430)

Osem 22-06-2012 21:04
Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Workers who fall sick during their annual leave are entitled to take corresponding paid leave at a later date, the EU's top court has ruled.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18534028

Another EU inspired burden on business or a jolly good idea?

Damien 22-06-2012 21:10
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Difficult. I guess the idea of leave is so you can do things and just relax so it's very unlucky if you fall ill during a day you have off.

Dai 22-06-2012 22:43
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Hmmm. Let's think about this for a moment.

Virtually everyone else outside the EU manages to produce goods cheaper and sell them more successfully.

So I'd suggest when we're struggling for 'growth' the very last thing we need is more crippling regulation from the ivory towers of euro dreamland.

Mick 22-06-2012 22:54
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Erm - This is pretty much the norm any way. If I was to be on sick leave and it clashed with my Annual leave, my leave would automatically be cancelled and be re-added to my Annual leave allowance.

idi banashapan 22-06-2012 23:11
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Same as above. I was able to claim my time back when I was ill on AL a couple of years ago

Hugh 22-06-2012 23:23
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Yup - standard practice at my place of work.

richard1960 23-06-2012 00:46
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
I can also claim my annual leave back pretty standard practice for the last few years.

Paul 23-06-2012 01:09
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445301)
Another EU inspired burden on business ....
Nope, just normal practice at all the firms Ive worked for over the last 32 years.

Peter_ 23-06-2012 05:12
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445301)

Another EU inspired burden on business or a jolly good idea?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaiNasty (Post 35445323)
Hmmm. Let's think about this for a moment.

Virtually everyone else outside the EU manages to produce goods cheaper and sell them more successfully.

So I'd suggest when we're struggling for 'growth' the very last thing we need is more crippling regulation from the ivory towers of euro dreamland.

Standard practice in virtually every business and has been for as long as I can remember, Europe's ruling is behind the times.

Now just think about it first before any further comments, if you happen to become seriously ill before your holidays why should you lose out on annual leave remember you will have either been to a doctors or the hospital for a diagnosis.

Now if I was off work sick during my holidays my work status would not change from sick to annual leave otherwise I would have some government department asking questions, it is logical when you think about it.

TheNorm 23-06-2012 08:57
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 35445331)
Yup - standard practice at my place of work.
Same here, although I've never taken additional days.

We had a discussion at work about this, and opinion was divided. What if you break your leg while on a skiing holiday? Or twist your ankle while rock climbing? Insurance companies treat injury after risky activities differently, why shouldn't employers?

Osem 23-06-2012 09:25
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Well speaking as someone who's been self employed for over 25 years I'm not best placed to comment on what's currently taken for granted in the cushy parallel universe known as employed status. ;) Hence my question in the OP but I bow to all you employees if this case represents nothing new at all and wonder why it's in the news in that event. :confused:

Anyway, my understanding of the situation from what I briefly read was that anyone who falls sick whilst on holiday (i.e. during the holiday as opposed to say falling ill beforehand and that carryiing on during what would have been a period of annual leave) can now claim the time back. When I and my late wife were employees I don't recall any such concessions. In fact, in the 1990's, my wife was sadly forced to take a great deal of her annual leave when she was in fact sick for various reasons. Despite being employed by very large and highly respected international organisation there was no question of getting any of it back but of course things may have changed since then.

Whether it's a good thing is not really up to me to say but like so many of the workplace rules we see I can't help thinking that it must add to the burden on business at a time when the economic situation is perilous. Make no mistake it'd be great if employees could enjoy much better conditions and I can certainly see a case for someone who's off sick and can't therefore take the holiday they'd booked to be able to have the time for one at a later date but I also see the inherent problems with that as cited in THeNorm's post.

When we compare the rights our workers already enjoy as compared to those they're competing with in large parts of the world, I must say I cannot see how in the long term many of these can be sustainable even though it'd be great if the economic climate would allow rights to be enhanced.

martyh 23-06-2012 09:54
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445390)
Well speaking as someone who's been self employed for over 25 years I'm not best placed to comment on what's currently taken for granted in the cushy parallel universe known as employed status. ;) Hence my question in the OP but I bow to all you employees if this case represents nothing new at all and wonder why it's in the news in that event. :confused:
.
I'm in the same boat as you Osem ,i've been self employed for so many years (at least 25) that i have lost touch of how cushy some employees have things .Reading the article i think it is to draw a legal distinction between paid holidays which is a legal right under the working time directive and paid sick leave which isn't .

Osem 23-06-2012 12:39
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445396)
I'm in the same boat as you Osem ,i've been self employed for so many years (at least 25) that i have lost touch of how cushy some employees have things .Reading the article i think it is to draw a legal distinction between paid holidays which is a legal right under the working time directive and paid sick leave which isn't .
:D

To be fair, all things are relative and I wouldn't swap self employment for the other option (cushy or otherwisep) as I much prefer being my own boss and being able to choose who I do and do not work for.

Yes you could well be right about that distinction. The article isn't very clear is it.

martyh 23-06-2012 13:51
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445429)
:D

To be fair, all things are relative and I wouldn't swap self employment for the other option (cushy or otherwisep) as I much prefer being my own boss and being able to choose who I do and do not work for.

Yes you could well be right about that distinction. The article isn't very clear is it.
damn right :tu:

Mick 23-06-2012 14:32
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445390)

Whether it's a good thing is not really up to me to say but like so many of the workplace rules we see I can't help thinking that it must add to the burden on business
Large employers try to wrangle out of paying sick leave and have Absence Management procedures in place. There is also the 'Three days' waiting rule where if an employee is sick for 3 days or less, they simply don't get paid at all. So there is some kind of 'Burden' free practices in place for those people who take the occasional 'Sickie' day.

Most employers have also adopted interesting Absence Management and monitoring. Ever heard of the 'Bradford Factor' ? Where if you cross a threshold after a number of episodes of absence then, you are taken down a number stages that eventually leads to dismissal.

Of course Employers have to be careful and not to prejudice or discriminate against those people who are disabled. Whose disability might temporarily incapacitate them and they take the odd period of sick leave here and there.

The DDA (Disability Discrimination Act 2005), now actually known as the Equality Act post 2010, prevents employers from simply dismissing employees because they have a disability. This doesn't necessarily stop a company from firing a disabled person, they could still do this under 'Capability' but have to show they took steps to make reasonable adjustments.

Osem 23-06-2012 15:05
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35445470)
Large employers try to wrangle out of paying sick leave and have Absence Management procedures in place. There is also the 'Three days' waiting rule where if an employee is sick for 3 days or less, they simply don't get paid at all. So there is some kind of 'Burden' free practices in place for those people who take the occasional 'Sickie' day.

Most employers have also adopted interesting Absence Management and monitoring. Ever heard of the 'Bradford Factor' ? Where if you cross a threshold after a number of episodes of absence then, you are taken down a number stages that eventually leads to dismissal.

Of course Employers have to be careful and not to prejudice or discriminate against those people who are disabled. Whose disability might temporarily incapacitate them and they take the odd period of sick leave here and there.

The DDA (Disability Discrimination Act 2005), now actually known as the Equality Act post 2010, prevents employers from simply dismissing employees because they have a disability. This doesn't necessarily stop a company from firing a disabled person, they could still do this under 'Capability' but have to show they took steps to make reasonable adjustments.
Very interesting. :tu:

martyh 23-06-2012 15:16
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35445470)
Large employers try to wrangle out of paying sick leave and have Absence Management procedures in place. There is also the 'Three days' waiting rule where if an employee is sick for 3 days or less, they simply don't get paid at all. So there is some kind of 'Burden' free practices in place for those people who take the occasional 'Sickie' day.

Most employers have also adopted interesting Absence Management and monitoring. Ever heard of the 'Bradford Factor' ? Where if you cross a threshold after a number of episodes of absence then, you are taken down a number stages that eventually leads to dismissal.

Of course Employers have to be careful and not to prejudice or discriminate against those people who are disabled. Whose disability might temporarily incapacitate them and they take the odd period of sick leave here and there.

The DDA (Disability Discrimination Act 2005), now actually known as the Equality Act post 2010, prevents employers from simply dismissing employees because they have a disability. This doesn't necessarily stop a company from firing a disabled person, they could still do this under 'Capability' but have to show they took steps to make reasonable adjustments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445482)
Very interesting. :tu:
don't know about you mate but i really don't think i could be arsed with all that

Wayfair 23-06-2012 15:19
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
We get our holidays back if we go sick during that time, we also have the Bradford Factor, our target, sorry trigger point is 80, it works by totaling the number of days off multiplied by occasions multiplied by occasions, all this leads to is some folk have 4 sick shifts off 'we work blocks of 4' instead of 2 sick shifts off as it's the occasions that get ya..

Mick 23-06-2012 15:20
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445493)
don't know about you mate but i really don't think i could be arsed with all that
If you are self employed and have no employees then you do not need to be arsed with it, start taking on staff and you don't have a choice. Employment law is there to protect yourself, your business and it's employees.

martyh 23-06-2012 15:26
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35445495)
If you are self employed and have no employees then you do not need to be arsed with it, start taking on staff and you don't have a choice. Employment law is there to protect yourself, your business and it's employees.

I'm not knocking it i don't have a clue about any of that stuff as i have never worked under those rules , i just couldn't work for a company and be subject to all that regulation ,i just want to go to work and earn a crust with as little restriction and fuss as possible and be responsible ,and take responsibility for my own work or lack of

Mick 23-06-2012 15:32
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfair (Post 35445494)
We get our holidays back if we go sick during that time, we also have the Bradford Factor, our target, sorry trigger point is 80, it works by totaling the number of days off multiplied by occasions multiplied by occasions, all this leads to is some folk have 4 sick shifts off 'we work blocks of 4' instead of 2 sick shifts off as it's the occasions that get ya..
Someone who has multple episodes of days off, say one day off one week and two days off another and then one more a week later, they will trigger targets which leads to the first stage of action, they will reach this much quicker than say someone who has a full 28 days off (or four weeks) because the 28 full days off are just one episode. Where as the multiple days off are treated as individual episodes and it's a simple form of multiplying the episodes which gives a high score.

The Bradford Factor is there to trap those who take the Mickey and have a poor attendance record. The problem is, the BF can also trap those who are genuinely ill. So it's good for businesses trying to discourage high staff sickness but not so kind on the employee who is genuinely ill.

Peter_ 23-06-2012 15:46
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445500)
I'm not knocking it i don't have a clue about any of that stuff as i have never worked under those rules , i just couldn't work for a company and be subject to all that regulation ,i just want to go to work and earn a crust with as little restriction and fuss as possible and be responsible ,and take responsibility for my own work or lack of
I thought you now had a job driving for a company if so you are covered the same as everyone else as you are not a special case.

martyh 23-06-2012 15:51
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445511)
I thought you now had a job driving for a company if so you are covered the same as everyone else as you are not a special case.

I do ,still self employed though

Peter_ 23-06-2012 15:55
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445515)
I do ,still self employed though
Do they supply the vehicle if so a bit of a cheat on their side as that is ccutting costs in a major way, if you like the job look for something where you are actually an employee as you will be better off in the long run.

Good luck with it anyway.

martyh 23-06-2012 16:05
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445517)
Do they supply the vehicle if so a bit of a cheat on their side as that is ccutting costs in a major way, if you like the job look for something where you are actually an employee as you will be better off in the long run.

Good luck with it anyway.
They supply the fuel and the vehicle ,i don't see it as a cheat as there are not deliveries to do all the time so it saves having paid employees and all the baggage that goes with it sitting around waiting for a job to come in .It suits me because i have a regular income and can still do my trade work as and when that comes in.I don't get any sick pay or annual leave or any of the employment protection that direct employees get but i do get the freedom missing from a lot of direct employment

Peter_ 23-06-2012 16:12
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445523)
They supply the fuel and the vehicle ,i don't see it as a cheat as there are not deliveries to do all the time so it saves having paid employees and all the baggage that goes with it sitting around waiting for a job to come in .It suits me because i have a regular income and can still do my trade work as and when that comes in.I don't get any sick pay or annual leave or any of the employment protection that direct employees get but i do get the freedom missing from a lot of direct employment
Thats what I see as a cheat as to them you are like casual labour and without all the protection that an employee would have, but that is your choice.

TheNorm 23-06-2012 16:15
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445523)
They supply the fuel and the vehicle ...
Hmmm...

Quote:
A self-employed contractor generally provides whatever equipment is needed to do the job ....
The provision of significant equipment (and, or materials) which is fundamental to the engagement is of particular importance. ...where a worker is provided with the necessary equipment, materials and so on by the engager that points to employment.
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/employment-status/index.htm

martyh 23-06-2012 16:24
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445524)
Thats what I see as a cheat as to them you are like casual labour and without all the protection that an employee would have, but that is your choice.
It's an arrangement that works well for me and a lot of people ,i do accept it's not a lifestyle for everyone though

---------- Post added at 17:24 ---------- Previous post was at 17:20 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNorm (Post 35445526)
Yeah that crops up every few years with every company that uses self employed staff ,basically we just ignore it .No government official is going to tell me how i should be employed ....there's always a way around that load of garbage ;)

Peter_ 23-06-2012 16:28
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445528)




Yeah that crops up every few years with every company that uses self employed staff ,basically we just ignore it .No government official is going to tell me how i should be employed ....there's always a way around that load of garbage ;)
It is not garbage but these companies love it that they do not have a static workforce that can can lay off without a second thought especially at lean times of the year, the rules are there for a reason to protect you.

martyh 23-06-2012 16:39
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445537)
It is not garbage but these companies love it that they do not have a static workforce that can can lay off without a second thought especially at lean times of the year, the rules are there for a reason to protect you.
One of the most restrictive things for any company is having a static workforce that has to be paid regardless of any profit made ,it has been the downfall of many a company ,That load of garbage about employment status is largely meaningless to any boss with an ounce of common sense and assumes that self employed staff actually want to be on the books and are looking for protection when all they want is to be allowed to work when they want and for as long as they want without being shackled by a lot of regulation

beeman 23-06-2012 20:35
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mick (Post 35445504)
Someone who has multple episodes of days off, say one day off one week and two days off another and then one more a week later, they will trigger targets which leads to the first stage of action, they will reach this much quicker than say someone who has a full 28 days off (or four weeks) because the 28 full days off are just one episode. Where as the multiple days off are treated as individual episodes and it's a simple form of multiplying the episodes which gives a high score.

The Bradford Factor is there to trap those who take the Mickey and have a poor attendance record. The problem is, the BF can also trap those who are genuinely ill. So it's good for businesses trying to discourage high staff sickness but not so kind on the employee who is genuinely ill.
Surely that would affect the sort of person you would actually want to employ - That pattern could actually apply to an extremely dedicated employee (someone who's seriously ill but forces themselves to come into work except on their really bad days)

Then again sick leave seems silly to me (another self-employed person. and as a result not had a day of sick it 12 years)

Peter_ 23-06-2012 21:15
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by beeman (Post 35445629)

Then again sick leave seems silly to me (another self-employed person. and as a result not had a day of sick it 12 years)
You would view it very differently if you were an employee and be glad of it.

I find it selfish that someone would come into work ill and potentially infect others just so as not to have day off sick and this happens with employees and the self employed as everyone is ill at some point.

Dai 23-06-2012 21:56
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
There's an answer to all the world's ills in here somewhere. It's amazing how much healthier we self-employed are..

martyh 23-06-2012 22:21
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445641)
You would view it very differently if you were an employee and be glad of it.

I find it selfish that someone would come into work ill and potentially infect others just so as not to have day off sick and this happens with employees and the self employed as everyone is ill at some point.
we tend to suck it up though instead of bleating about a bit of a sniffle or headache

---------- Post added at 23:21 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaiNasty (Post 35445652)
There's an answer to all the world's ills in here somewhere. It's amazing how much healthier we self-employed are..

we could hire ourselves out for medical research :D

Peter_ 24-06-2012 06:30
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445654)
we tend to suck it up though instead of bleating about a bit of a sniffle or headache
Not a question of bleating rather infecting which is wrong.

martyh 24-06-2012 09:35
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445678)
Not a question of bleating rather infecting which is wrong.
gosh how dramatic :rolleyes:

Peter_ 24-06-2012 09:48
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445696)
gosh how dramatic :rolleyes:
Not really as you are self employed so if ill would still turn up for work possibly causing cross infection of your colleagues simply because if you do not turn up for work you do not get paid, an employee can take time of sick when ill which is a major difference.

You have a different mindset because that is what you are used to but cross infection can be a very serious matter for another person as they may not be as hardy as the person coming into work with a transmittable illness.

Gary L 24-06-2012 12:21
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Are you including the common cold and runny nose, Peter?

Peter_ 24-06-2012 13:06
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35445744)
Are you including the common cold and runny nose, Peter?
You know better than that.:rolleyes::D

Gary L 24-06-2012 13:10
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445768)
You know better than that.:rolleyes::D
Well as you said it included sniffles and headaches, then yes. I suppose you have to be :D

Peter_ 24-06-2012 13:13
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35445771)
Well as you said it included sniffles and headaches, then yes. I suppose you have to be :D
Which post was that then or did you just read your own post instead.;)

Gary L 24-06-2012 13:15
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445773)
Which post was that then or did you just read your own post instead.;)
#34 onwards.

can everyone check that someone isn't posting in their name whilst they're not looking please! :)

martyh 24-06-2012 13:28
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_ (Post 35445699)
Not really as you are self employed so if ill would still turn up for work possibly causing cross infection of your colleagues simply because if you do not turn up for work you do not get paid, an employee can take time of sick when ill which is a major difference.

You have a different mindset because that is what you are used to but cross infection can be a very serious matter for another person as they may not be as hardy as the person coming into work with a transmittable illness.
I always find that if i have a cold or similar common illness it is better to continue being active and work it off rather that languishing in a bed filling your face full of worthless remedies that don't really do anything ,usually get over them in a day doing that

Peter_ 24-06-2012 14:01
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35445779)
I always find that if i have a cold or similar common illness it is better to continue being active and work it off rather that languishing in a bed filling your face full of worthless remedies that don't really do anything ,usually get over them in a day doing that
Most people go to work with a cold and no Gary it was not me who posted about colds it was Martyh, as not everyone will be infected by a cold but the are other illnesses that you should not go into work with especially flu and I do not mean man flu or those miraculous 1/3 day events that some people claim to be flu.

Osem 24-06-2012 16:40
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
It's well known that self employed folks are immune to the likes of 'man flu' (and variations thereof) and incapable of passing on infections... :D

martyh 24-06-2012 17:02
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445831)
It's well known that self employed folks are immune to the likes of 'man flu' (and variations thereof) and incapable of passing on infections... :D
SSHH quiet Osem ,it's a secret known only to us and not to be revealed to the PAYE sicknotes upon pain of having all our tax returns investigated and receipts torn up
:nono:

TheNorm 24-06-2012 19:38
Re: Sick on annual leave? Just take some more.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35445831)
It's well known that self employed folks are ... incapable of passing on infections... :D
You are obviously far more trusting of "ladies of the night" than I am...:erm:


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