Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Websites will soon be forced to identify people who post defamatory messages online.

BBC

Could be 'interesting'......

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

"We now go to the tech news....The price of VPN's has risen today due to unprecedented demand"

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Good. The level of vitriol and abuse on the Internet is reaching absurd levels. Twitter has become a cesspool of humanity where the thickest, nastiest, xenophobic little racists lurk. It's time for the anonymous trolls to face the consequences of their actions.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

But that's the point, they hide behind the anonymity of the internet so will all just move (if they already haven't) to VPNs.. Which means that this law is basically worthless... Just look for example at the piratebay thread..

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

I think most of these people don't tend to smart enough to do that. They just post abuse without thinking. They don't even seem to understand they are traceable.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

I think that attitude has changed over the last few years.. Even trolls are getting more computer savvy just look at the issues site mods/admins have these days.. First it was p2p evading after the davenport Lyons letters got sent out and it's all progressed from there..

A simple google has easy to set up instructions that even a true blonde could follow.. I know as I live with one ;)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

It won't stop as many of the determined trolls. The ones who know what they are doing and plan it, obsess over it. It will stop the teenagers using Twitter to abuse and bully people IMO.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

They can then ask the VPN supplier for the originating IP address, surely?

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Might run into problems with the VPN is from another country. They may not be bothered enough to go that far.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Lol is this a mod-only thread or what?? :-)

I think this is long overdue. Most of the time this is going to apply to the "I'll say whatever I want coz whatever happened to freedom of speech innit" types that crop up on website and forums these days.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

This. The large majority of people aren't determined trolls who go out of their way to make sure they aren't traceable. This move should reduce the number of people who post abusive stuff at a whim. I think that's a good thing, though I do wonder how abusive/defamatory will be defined. I would hope that it'll be a bit firmer than a public order offence where one complaint is sufficient for an offence to have been committed. Then again, are web masters expected to be the judge of what is defamatory, or will there be a separate body that scours forums on users' request? Too many questions at this point.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Probably because on a forum it effects the mods/admins more than the members who see only a fraction of the troll mess we have to clean up ;) :p:

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

I wasn't want to say anything :p:

There are clear rules as to what is considered a libellous/defamatory comment.

This is an extract from "Essential Radio Journalism" by Paul Chantler & Peter Stewart. (Ch 12, P207)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

I don't think the trolls will give a crap - either the ones on this site or elsewhere.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

On top of that there is what the CF Team consider to be libellous as well. Nobody (other than Mick, Frank and Paul) has the right to post on here and the site owners have full discretion to decide if something is inappropriate.

All team members may decide that whereas something is legal, it is not appropriate to be posted on here.

This new proposal is well certainly go some way to cleaning the site up a bit. As it stands if the police or courts approached us requesting a user's details due to offence they have have posted then we won't stand in their way. If someone like VM officially approached us (which they never have btw) wanting a user's info then we'll turn them down.

We aren't going to take an armchair lawyer's advice - if we need to check the legal situation on matters we have ways of doing so. But if the law doesn't apply then it is the team's discretion.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

See, that's the problem:

Now, if I were to say 'I fart in your general direction', this could expose you to ridicule. Who is going to be the judge of what offences are serious enough to warrant handing over an IP address? Do victims have to go to court, to force web masters to hand over IP addresses (as I think they can now), or is a single complaint going to be sufficient? Who is going to decide if an 'offence' has been committed?

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

I wonder if this'll put an end to 'radical reform'...... :D

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Long story short. You're all going to jail.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Sorry, but no. Not unless they are lawyers :) They can decide if they don't like what someone has posted and remove it. That's not the same thing.

Now that's a better way to put it.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Sorry, but yes. If the Team decides something is libellous and shouldn't be posted then we will take action. This is a privately owned forum and our rules are very clear.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

They've got to track us all down first!

Obviously posting something on Twitter that's in your REAL NAME and has all your personal details is going to get you in trouble.

So let's fill out the absolute minimum info required (or with false personal info) and keep the internet anonymous. :D

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Could it be argued that supporting a particular X Factor contestant is exposing yourself to ridicule? Another example would be where a certain group say that a particular TV programme about their behaviour incites hatred against them, when if there is any 'hatred'(which can range from mere dislike of, to physical attacks) , it is because of their behaviour and actions.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

That's not the info they are after, instead it'll be time/date/IP/Email and from there they'll then approach the ISP's (via a court order) for the account holders info. That's when the police will start knocking on doors and confiscating PC's as evidence

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

You men potentially libellous then. That's fine and I agree :)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

How are they going to be able to guarantee that the person who they think placed the post is the actual person who did place the post? Unless a person is filmed (or watched) in the act of writing the post, surely it will be hard to prove?

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

That's where forensic investigation of the computer itself comes into play..

As most trolls tend to be loners I don't think cross contamination from other users is going to be and issue :D

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

No. Not at all. That's personal opinion and is perfectly valid.

Anyone can "say" anything they like. Doesn't make it true.

---------- Post added at 12:27 ---------- Previous post was at 12:25 ----------

Not only that but you are responsible for whoever access your computer so if you let someone libel someone else on it then you are potentially as responsible at they are. I think :)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

We're not arguing the definition of a troll are we?? Surely that could deemed to be troll like behavior.

I'm sure that the courts in these cases will have already determined what is/is not a troll and this topic is about identifying said trolls through what I presume will be a court order.

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

There's no law which specifies that you have to be aware of what anyone using your computer does so that is totally you know what.. If you're not aware then you can't be held responsible and even if you are aware unless you participate then again you can't be held responsible... (unless it's illegal content like under -age images but that's not what this thread is about)

Gawd you do come out with some rubbish at times

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Be as pedantic as you want but I assure you many people before you have tried and failed to get one over on the team. If we decide something is something, then that's how it goes down on CF. If we decide someone is being argumentative, then they are being argumentative. If people cannot or will not abide with our decisions then there are plenty of other site they're welcome to use.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Fair enough. Maybe I was getting a couple of things mixed up.

But there's no need to be rude about it.

Do you not think it's actually a reasonable idea that the person whose computer it is should be held responsible for any content posted from it?

---------- Post added at 13:37 ---------- Previous post was at 13:29 ----------

I'd call it being accurate. I have given legal definition of defamatory in an earlier post. Whether any given comment is actually defamatory can only be decided in a court of law. Which is why libel cases are brought; ie to make that determination.

The discussion is about defamation not being argumentative :)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Nope, Otherwise you'd be opening up claims for stabbing someone if someone used your kitchen knife or doing the owner of the car for speeding as well as the driver.. (only MOT and TAX rules allow the owner to be prosecuted if you allow a third party because you know the fact before you hand over the keys as you are the registered keeper)

You can't commit a crime if your property was used by a third party as a medium to commit that crime. Only if your property becomes the crime (as in my previous example of storage of under-age images) and you know about it you do become responsible.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

And in the Cable Forum court of law, we make the rules. I'm not discussing this with you any further. Either accept CF's decisions or find another forum, simple.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Another news report from the BBC, linked to the link in the OP.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

From the link posted by Damien:

Okay, so it's still not clear how it's going to work. Will site owners be obliged to comply? Will people have to proof a statement is defamatory? Or can I simply ask CF to give me the name/ip of someone I don't like? And how does this sit with DPA? I think we're going to need a lot more detail before we can judge this.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

It would require a court order otherwise they'd be all sorts of privacy issues

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Right. 'Cos you can do both of those with a PC :rolleyes:

And people say I sometimes come up with stupid stuff :mad:

---------- Post added at 15:02 ---------- Previous post was at 15:00 ----------

You make the rules of this Forum but you do not make the law.

And where did I say I do not :confused:

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Yet it would be covered by the same "It's your equipment so you're at fault" rule from your stupid claim

You really didn't grasp the analogy there did you and you were actually comparing a knife to a computer??? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Best laugh I've had all year!!!

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Firstly CF isn't subject to the DPA. A high percentage of door-slammers (people who threaten to leave CF in the hope it'll annoy someone) order us to delete their details under the rules of the DPA. The server is based in Germany and the site owner resides in Canada so it wouldn't apply.

We wouldn't give out someone's details just like that if a member requests them. If were were approached by a court or the police, we would then comply.

I've not said that we do.

If the team decides that something you post is libellous, we will remove it and no armchair lawyer will change our minds.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

There are tons of truly anonymous proxies and vpn's out there.

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

:LOL:

---------- Post added at 16:20 ---------- Previous post was at 16:18 ----------

A really dedicated Internet troll can find means to evade giving out any traceable information if they want to

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

True - but most probably won't - so, if it stops 95%, that's a start....;)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

No. I did get it. I really did. I just didn't think it was that good.

---------- Post added at 16:39 ---------- Previous post was at 16:38 ----------

Not exactly what I meant but never mind.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

It won't affect the trolls on this site. they're nowhere near bad enough for it to affect them.

but the scary thing is, that if people think they are, then it's time to get the cotton wool and the soothing cream out.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:10 ----------

If this thing was inforce at the moment Carl, you could have demanded her details because she's upset you :)

---------- Post added at 17:17 ---------- Previous post was at 17:13 ----------

What about the driveby trolls. the ones who use unsecured WiFi?

we need to make it law that all wifi should be secured.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

On thinking it over I'm not sure my point was actually that good either :blush:

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Need to see the detail of how this will work in practice, but I for one will not but demanding anyone's identity.
Stupid people say stupid things. I ignore stupid people.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

^ Yep. Pretty-much my thoughts.

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Not to mention youtube, holy heck there's a lot of **** on that site.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

it may stop 95 % to start with but they will soon learn ( takes a few seconds to search the info ) how to avoid it so it may cause a lull and catch a few but long term its worthless much like blocking pirate bay ;)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

So because something is difficult and insurmountable we might as well not bother?
And yet everyone still wants the war on drugs to continue even though it's a war we can't win.
Personally I want the stalkers and bullies dealt with whatever the problem and however hard they make it to find them.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

no but doing something thats a waste of time is pointless and will just leave those thinking that this will help frustrated

as imo the main thing this is aimed at is those who like attacking tribute sites then education and moderation of posts is more likely to reduce any harm

and where it is forums like this and where they dont hold up to the high standards of the posters here ;) then some form of reputation given and taken can if applied accross a site limit any one individual from continually posting ( by hidding or just stopping them post ) work too.

when it comes to stalkers of an individual then i think the police should take a more active roll and apply what ever ways they may have already of tracking down the person

i fear though this will just lead to those adding yet another layer to their defense making that harder



as to war on drugs most I know say legalise the lot and tax it ( whole other thread :) )

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

The problem is that the sites that cause the most trouble - Facebook, Twitter etc. are repeatedly failing.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

But that's been the status quo for years and it's obviously not working effectively as these proposed measures suggest.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Might be faster but the damage might be already done..

The facebook case recently the trolls made her out to be a paedophile and banning after that didn't cure the issue in fact they just came back stronger than ever..

Yes banning will cure 99% of them but something like this is needed for the truly malicious ones

Yup another VBB site i am on the admin said he is gonna start reporting everyone from the UK who posts bad stuff on his site....

I reckon this might be hard for him to do,i recommended simply ONLY IF CONTACTED BY UK AUTHORIES ABOUT A POST THEN TELL THEM WHO IT IS... (Would make it easier on him)

Wouldnt that be enough?? (I think it would be)

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Abuse on the internet is a growing problem and one that site admins\mods are struggling with so anything that might help is most welcome. I am an admin on a few forums and the time i now spend dealing with the idiot brigade is taking up most of my time on those forums and being honest after a while it wears you down and you start to lose interest because the interest that drew you to a particular forum is lost when your time is spent mostly dealing with idiots and your no longer able to participate as an ordinary member.

Will this solve the problem of course it won't and in the longterm i am not sure it will be remotely effective against the majority. My biggest concern to this though is if the worst offenders take measures to avoid this those measures will get passed down to lower and lower levels of offenders and we might actually have an increase in worse content as those posting it feel more secure. What can we do i am not sure anything can be done to combat this effectively online because by that time the attitude and behaviour tend to be set our best chance is to get the individuals at an early age and instill in them correct values of decency and ethics not something that websites can really do.

Best case there is a drop for a few months people can recharge their batterys so to speak and maybe come up with some more new ideas. Worst case we see the hardcore quickly take measures against this and then pass that knowledge onto all and sundry leading to increased and more vicious content being dealt with by admins\mods.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

Depends how determined the majority are, and why they are doing it. A large part of my job is maintaining discipline amongst students. What I have found over the years is that even in the most unruly group, if you can find the ring leaders and remove them from the situation, the group often quietens down. This is what happened in the riots last year. The authorities found the ring leaders, hit them hard, and the rest soon fell into line.

It works even if there aren't really "groups" as such. As long as people can see other people being punished, and punished hard, for doing something, a lot will lose interest in doing that something.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

As I recall it, the riots stopped when it started to rain.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

How soon was they caught, arrested, charged and sentenced then?
it must have been within hours or a day.

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

1100 were arrested on the first few nights....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/au...cat-birmingham

Re: Websites to be forced to identify trolls
 

I think the change in tactics from the Police helped. However, my experience is that if you can identify a ring leader in any group that is doing bad things, and you remove that ring leader, the group will start to behave.