Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-17546420

RWE, NPOWER and E.ON put halt on new power plant plans.

Not good news to our energy solutions. We all better start getting candles as panick nature to news.:D

Serioulsy this could setback our energy needs. I wonder the economic climate makes investment into major expensive projects not viable.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

FYI, RWE Npower is one company, not two separate companies.

And from your link

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

thanks thought it was 3 error by the beeb never knew they all part same company.

Its toss up on the situation we cant go coal mass, worry nuclear power dangers of what happened in japan. renewables likely not enough. Forgot biomass plants there could issues with crops too.

So we could be in serious power shortages down the road.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Wasn't there talk a few years ago about incinerating domestic waste, and generating electricity from the incineration process?

I'm sure this is being done in some places. It would solve the land fill problems.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

tbf, you put the comma in between RWE and Npower, the BBC didn't....;)

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

sorry comas can be easily missed so beeb not wrong.

Saying that if like the bloke said big hitter companies pull out we could be struggling to replace the old plants.

---------- Post added at 15:08 ---------- Previous post was at 15:05 ----------

this what you mean

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste-to-energy

If so Co2 emission is issue. Saying that waste heat could go into pipes keep towns warm.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I just hope we don't end up having to kowtow to the Russians in the years to come

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Unless they put the filters on the chimneys like they do with coal power stations.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Cant we just have the film "Threads" happening

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Wasn't that about the build up to, and the aftermath of, a nuclear war, and the effects on Sheffield (I thought it was an urban improvement programme, myself....:D).

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Nuclear is good for baseline load, gas is good for demand load, and wind/solar are good for producing when they feel like it. Current renewable energy technology is just not up to the job.

The Fukushima accident is barely relevant, other than to places where every backup is likely to get wiped out by quake/Tsunami - though it would be a good basic principle for new designs to be able to manage a safe emergency shutdown using only what is within the containment building.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Apparently there are many large faults under Europe and the UK that could trigger massive earthquakes and tsunamis just as big as the one in Japan. I can't remember which channel it was on, but I was watching a program about it a while ago on one of the documentary channels. So the same thing could happen here to our nuclear power stations.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Anyone remember there ever being an earthquake big enough to trigger a tidal way here in the UK ???

Here's a hint http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._British_Isles

http://194.66.252.141/website/gdi/vi...Title=GeoIndex

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Aparrently there is geological evidence of massive earthquakes throughout Europe.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

not really a reason not to build them though is it

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

When were they and can you provide a link to that evidence

I would be interested to see which of those affect the UK and are large enough to create tidal waves or capable of shaking concrete reinforced building to the ground in the UK. Considering the standards that any nuclear reactor building will need to be built to any earthquakes would need to be a pretty dam big ones. I don't think we have seen one large enough in the UK yet.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

well the keep spouting global warming aha new blurb is climate change.

Our town had for abit tsunami warning airraid sirens god knows what they think we can do in 1 hour. there no high ground to escape too.

In 1953 the was big big tidal surge which flooded lincolnshire norfolk caused to believe earthquake in norway area causing massive water displacement in north sea. It cost lives. It could easily happen again.

If the scientist are right lets say it is true then climate will adapt we could face with tornado like america get. Eathquakes could be even more prominent or larger.

We had 6 magnitude earthquakes in past notably yarmouth.

History suggest we had some biggish ones they could return old faultlines could come active once again.

Lake district scarfel, and scotlands glencoe are actually super volcano might again wake up.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/prog.../article.shtml

We cant be closed to our ecological past of the future we cant predict it. It might be thousands years it might not.

We should at our peril be not vigilant and prepared.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I am sorry but i am having problems understanding that post.

What your trying to say i think is You never know what is going to happen. Well if we accepted that outlook for everything then we will never progress.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

nobody saying we cant move forward and progress we however need to be mindful of climate will change if scientist are right.

Lets be honest subsequant governents believed it to be so they taxing enough. then we should consider our options on how we adapt.

If that mean coastal property on stilts other flood risks. Buildings to withstand magnitude 7+.

Sky scrapers such new london one london being built with high specifications to withstand high winds and earthquakes.

It just means adapting specifications to withstand what we could face. At some point if they believe science then they have to to look at those countries who build in earthquake, tsunami, tornado high risk locations.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I think we are a few hundred thousand years away from having to worry about earthquakes, tsunamis and tornados on a regular basis .Geographically speaking the British Isles are very stable

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

It's a very good reason to not build them. The UK is very densely populated compared to many countries, so an accident could mean many 1000's of people having to be evacuated, and a whole region becoming uninhabitable.

---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 18:17 ----------

Where on earth did you get that from???

---------- Post added at 18:20 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

If you have the documentary channels, and you have a Tivo, then search for earthquake, and I'm sure it will come up with some results. Although I don't know how long you will have to wait to view them again.

---------- Post added at 18:27 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

You think!!!! But the truth is that you don't have a clue about it do you?

I also thought that the UK was quite stable (with the exception of the odd tremmor). Then after watching the documentary I was shocked to see the evidence of huge earthquakes. And to hear about the chances of them happening again.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

then we just have to be more carefull

The last time i looked we don't get strong earthquakes or volcanoes and we aren't straddling 2 continental plates so i would say we are live on a stable land mass

---------- Post added at 18:38 ---------- Previous post was at 18:31 ----------

yes i do think ,and yes i have watched a few documentaries on the subject ,it doesn't make me a expert though that's why i think ,unlike you though who appear to be a expert on most matters after watching a few documentaries .
I have just been watching one about weather change in the UK on BBC Iplayer as it happens and guess what all the experts only "think" as well they are not certain ,perhaps we should point them in your direction being the fount of all knowledge

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

So we can avoid earthquakes by being careful can we??? :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Well you really need to do some more research then.

---------- Post added at 18:47 ---------- Previous post was at 18:39 ----------

The documentaries get their information from experts who know far more than me or you :rolleyes: So I'm far more likely to listen to what they say, than what 'you think'. But you seem to quite often think that what "you think" is right, and the experts are wrong.

The experts don't know when a large earthquake could happen. But what they do know is that they have happened before, and they will probably happen again. This is enough reason to not build power stations that could prove to be extremely dangerous in the event of an earthquake. In fact Germany are decommissioning all of their nuclear power stations following the events in Japan. But then I suppose you think that you know better than them also!!

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Oh good god you really are a doom and gloom mercant aren't you ,we are not about to be devastated by earthquakes ,volcanoes or any other natural disaster you cook up in that overactive imagination of yours .
Personally i think you have been watching too much tv and need a spell in the real world

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I didn't say we were. But you don't risk 1000's of lives when there are alternatives. So you don't build nuclear power stations.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

In fact ,Germany have been decomissioning their nuclear power staions since 2000 as they came to the end of their life ,some stations have been closed this year

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13592208


It doesn't have a fat lot to with Japans disaster at all ,that is merely a sop for the enviromentalists the decision to end germanies nuclear stations was taken years before and by a different government

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...se-out#Germany

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Martyh you might want to read these links. Tells you that scientist dont much know about intraplate earthquakes to understand how they happen where the risks are. They learning all the time about these type earthquakes these are the type uk get. In netherlands was pretty immune got 5.8 which damaged structures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Roermond_earthquake

Its was thought they we very infrequent but that thinking subsiding. Scientist accept three types caused by stress, heat or weakness fig 2. following link

http://www.experimentation-online.co...le.php?id=1316

Its these earthquakes not near the main plates can be just violent deadly. I dont want you have nightmares:D but we not immune.

This will give you idea where most at risk next 50 years darker the risks damage to property. Although they estimate only 10% chance of this.

http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/hazard/UKhazard.html

Another is the 2 most recent earthquakes study been conducted

http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/res...rketrasen.html

some other stuff might want read

http://www.bgs.ac.uk/research/earthq...s.html?src=sfb

http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/5356/

Which means historic earthquakes may been stronger as it difficult to assess.

Now biggest recorded earthquake was offshore dogger bank near coast yorkshire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1931_Do...ank_earthquake

DATE 07/06/1931
ORIGIN TIME 00:25:00 UTC
LOCATION 54.080 1.500
DEPTH 23.0 km
MAGNITUDE6.1 ML
LOCALITY NORTH SEA

http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/ear...UKseismic.html

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

But martyh knows better ;)

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

yeah you may want to read them yourselves :rolleyes:

taken from Mertle's link here http://www.earthquakes.bgs.ac.uk/hazard/UKhazard.html


kind of backs up what i said really doesn't it ,the rest of the links either talk about other countries or are just theories

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Not at all. Even a 1% chance is a chance. And when you are dealing with nuclear power, then that chance is far too high.

Would you like to be the one who tells 1000's of people who live within a 25 mile range of lets say Selafield, that there is a 1% chance that they could die due to an earthquake causing a massive radiation. And then don't forget all the contamination caused by the radiation cloud. :rolleyes:

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I stepped back from the thread when he started to post quotes i felt he had no bothered to read first.

The chances of us having an incident anything like that of Japan is negligible.

Tim do you think we will be able within the next 25 to 40 years to provide all the power we need from renewable ?? Because i don't and gas is running out the same as oil, So nuclear is the only option for power in the amount we need now and going forward. The nimby's complain about nuclear then complain about wind then complain about gas ???? i some times wonder if they want us back in caves

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Indeed ,It reminds me of a person who relies on tv weather forcasts to know if it is raining instead of simply looking out of the window

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Tad over the top and reminds me of "Will someone save the Children" whilst running around screaming with there hands in the air :)

1% chance :LOL:

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Everything has a hazard attached to it ,if we followed you risk free mantra that you keep spouting we would all be living in caves .I would maybe accept your arguments against nuclear power as valid if they where based on something such as human error or faulty equipment which is far more likely than earthquakes or tsunamis

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Even if the chance is small, then it is still unacceptable due to the massive destruction a nuclear accident causes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernobyl_disaster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Mile_Island_accident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windscale_accident
There have been many radiation leaks into the Irish sea, making it the most radioactive sea in the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...nts_by_country

There are other alternatives as I have mentioned before, including geothermal, hydroelectric, wave power, tidal power, and biomass.

I personally don't care about the nimbys, as they don't live in the real world. But what I do care about is the lives of people that could be lost for many years to come, following a nuclear accident, due to radiation.

---------- Post added at 09:53 ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 ----------

You really need to read the thread before you comment. Earthquakes and tsunamis are just two of the risks. If you look at this link you will see that there are many risks involved with nuclear power: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear...nts_by_country

I'm certainly not risk averse, otherwise I wouldn't do my job. But as long as there are alternatives, then due to the destruction caused by nuclear accidents, then the risk is unacceptable. If the UK was far bigger, and less densely populated, then you could stick a couple of nuclear power stations 100's of miles from civilisation, and they wouldn't be a problem...although the radiation cloud from Chernobyl was supposed to reach Cumbria. Although personally I think it was just convenient for the government to use as a cover up for yet another leak at Sellafield.

---------- Post added at 10:00 ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 ----------

How many leaks have there been at Sellafield?? More than you think, and a lot more than we are told about.

And how many people do you think have cancers, or other illnesses caused by radiation due to leaks from power stations, many years after the leaks?

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

not many according to this ,the Irish sea is far from being the most radioactive in the world
and you can verify that info by clicking the numbers which will direct you to the reports that info is taken from

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Sea#Radioactivity

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Indeed, Funny that was not quoted, Maybe we should all go and live on top of a mountain in case that 1% comes and bites us on our irradiated butts

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I notice you didn't quote this part:
Although they have cleaned up their act now, there are still many people who may be now (or in the future), suffereing illnesses caused by the radiation.

---------- Post added at 11:04 ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 ----------

Yes 1000's of people would be killed by a magnitude 9 earthquake in a city in the UK. But then once the clear up had been carried out, things would gradually get back to normal. But, radioactive contamination frm a nuclear accident would last for many years, possibly contaminating 100's of square miles.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Which just proves the point that in the past the nuclear industry was hazardous ,but has now cleaned up it's act and given the level of current technology and lessons learned from the past is probably as safe as it can be

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

But that doesn't mean that there won't be another accident.

Remember, they said Buncefield would never happen!!

And "probably as safe as it can be" may not be safe enough.

There are alternatives that we need to explore first.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Of course it doesn't ,what it does mean ,is that the risk is very much lower than in the past and much more acceptible

---------- Post added at 11:19 ---------- Previous post was at 11:17 ----------

which are being explored with limited success ,and no one expects all the alternatives to provide a replacement for current levels of power usage

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Any risk is unacceptable due to the consequences if an accident does happen.

In your opinion.

They just need to invest in the research.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Martyh you will be suprised not advocating not build them there no alternative yet.



Fussion power not ready yet talk will be thirty years before reactor. Although regardless blurbs still risks. We could limp on wait be first to build these plants be groundbreaking or we go fo nuclear now.

http://www.ccfe.ac.uk/

Alternative build the most modern reactors ever even japans was not that latest. Japans was generation 2. We could build these.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation_III_reactor



What saying we cant be closed to it wont happen on our shore nobody say we will get 9 level earthquakes they extremely rare even in fault lines.

What we saying we have had 6.1 thats not like the fault line 7's but we cant stick head in sand say we wont get 7's. This damaged property on land god knows what would happened if this hit land this 6.1 in 1931.

All those links telling they can happen anywhere intraplate have had little studies on them. We now finally get some studies but like one link scientist bickering. People want risk assessment map but you cant do it they dont leave scars.

Infact new zealand christchurch earthquake was caused by actually brand new tectonic plate. Maryland example was found to be old fault re-awaken.

You do know there is dormant faults in uk. We dont know if any will re-awaken they may stay quiet for another 1,000 years great would be more than pleased if they kept quiet in my and families lifetime. We may waken tomorrow it becomes active.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Mertle

Do you know how long that takes :LOL:

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

About as long as it takes the governement to come up with a workeable energy policy :D

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Thats only one 3 ways earthquakes happen in intraplate earthquakes. Just giving you one possible reason for intraplate earthquakes.

Ask yourself this why do we get over 4 earthquakes. since 1931 6 which was over 5 and 1 those was a 6. Roughly every 12 years we get 5 or more we dont know where it will be next. We might be unlucky hits area which could do damage people lose there lives.:(

You do realise depends where earthquakes epicentre you could have things like liquidfaction.

It often is where the earthquake is depends on damage just lucky most are not towns/cities or areas great damage likely. number factors such ground type, remember spanish one. Less than ours but caused lots damage sadly death. Old homes narrow streets and the sandy soil. Smaller quakes been known to be more agressive than larger ones done more damage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...United_Kingdom

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Not that long surely? :D

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

Straws and grasping come to mind. I ask you this

How do we in the next 30 years produce enough power to feed this country with its anticipated power needs if we don't use Nuclear and i mean power on tap not at the call of nature ????

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

sirius not against them

read my post further back they necessary evil but we must plan for risks.

Until nuclear fussion we got go ahead with nuclear reactor hope they build generation III reactors but no harm planning to withstand 8 earthquakes.

Now some thing interesting new tech being developed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17219991

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

I have no problem with nuclear power, but I DO have a problem when we create technology, which is potentially very dangerous and not create the same level of safeguards in case something goes wrong.

In the Fukushima incident for example, why did they put the emergency generators for the cooling system at a level which could flood? :confused:

It was build in an earthquake prone zone, situated right on the sea front, with the potential for tsunamis.

Did none of the super smart engineers figure that out before building it? heh

The problem though, isn't the technology, the problem is us.

I often wonder how people 100 years from now, would look back on the mess we're making of this world.

Dumping radioactive waste into the sea, burying radioactive material under the ground and burying carbon emissions in the ground, because we don't have the technology to get rid of it.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

AdamD some good points japanese asking questions.

On why near the see my understanding was they would deliberately use salt water as emergency cooling. Problem is its can erode but they felt it was short gap measure.

I agree strange considering tsunami risks but actually did have good safety reason..

Sadly like aircrafts when they have what known risk management to costs. Why build say for 8 level earthquake costs enormous we only have 5 level earthquake. Costs overbearing reason for certain reasons. Hopefully like aircraft accidents they learn lessons .

The earthquake to be fair was very big seen the damage caused in bed of see like a staircase each level huge each. It caused really strong tsunami.

Not sure if japanese could built it stronger although mistakes in design like backup generators. If it would been in land it would likely ended a meltdown.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

My my my how we need those coal mines that were closed all them years ago.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

There is no way they would be cost effectve these days as the wages bill would have prevented that. :(

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

but now we have minimum wage and most of Europe looking for a job :)

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

That's what the government said in order to defend their decision to close them.

---------- Post added at 10:50 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

That's why they have filters on the chimneys of coal power stations these days.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

In the short term until alternatives are developed, it's far better than releasing radiation into the environment.

Re: Nuclear project in disarray as two pull out making new plants
 

i agree with that .