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The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

The government's controversial Welfare Reform Bill has passed its final hurdle in the House of Lords.

Peers had inflicted seven defeats on the bill, including imposing a Â£26,000 annual benefit cap for working age households and means-testing employment and support allowance after one year.

But one by one the votes were overturned by MPs. On Wednesday crossbench peer Lord Best withdrew an amendment on the final point of dispute - the "under occupancy" penalty - dubbed a "bedroom tax" by critics - for social housing tenants in properties judged to have more rooms than they need.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17204301

The cap for benefits is going to hurt us, even if they stick to their promise not to include payments for the disabled. There is no sign yet that the cap will increase as the years go by, so it will get worse and worse.

How will this cap be fair when a single person will have the same cap as a large family all living together, with no prospect of affording, or being able enough, to leave?

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35391272)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17204301

The cap for benefits is going to hurt us, even if they stick to their promise not to include payments for the disabled. There is no sign yet that the cap will increase as the years go by, so it will get worse and worse.

How will this cap be fair when a single person will have the same cap as a large family all living together, with no prospect of affording, or being able enough, to leave?

The Â£26,000 or whatever it be is a cap ,the most anyone will get including housing benefit ect ,obviously a single person will get much less.The idea is to stop benefits outstripping wages as they often do now

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

I think some should be allowed over it if they a disabled person who needs round the clock healthcare. Considering now they may have to find private healthcare staff due to council cuts. Will have to pay them wage with there own money.

Now there is another question what about those who disabled and work these people actually do the right thing before we had the split in disabled from wrag/support. Seems wrag will get more kicked in the teeth. Then the catcalls will be next they aint disabled they work look.

Maybe we should have absolute ceiling 26,000 for MP's afterall they are drain on taxpayers.

Surely this is tackling issues arsed around backwards is the solutions. Especially Marytyn if your defense of the policy is due to wage related. Would we not be better trying to improve standards. Now another eye on this take money out of the system will mean less spending in the economy. Not saying we do nothing.

Again it should be case by case true reforms welfare such as less forms to fill in less beaucracy making sure people get what they need. Not way to save money they saving money on those not claimed millions. More help where its needed not less. Changes to JSA payment so partime work is viable to everyone as they dont lose benefits entitlement. Less need for people to keep needing take payslips to get there entitlements. Taxman knows earnings so why not link it to benefits. Would stop over paying under paying tax credits.

We need to set building blocks before sledgehammer approach.

Surely tackling housing prices and land costs to bring them back to sensibility. making britain cheaper to live but what we seeing some unbelievable crazy policies to hodge bodge the country. Getting wages better making business pay there taxex and there masters is surely the answer.

Adjusting tax for lower brackets put more money in the pockets austerity was hog wash to hit the poor low paid get the masters even richer. Which is not issue if they actually used there money create the jobs. They not happy they now want 50% tax bracket abolished on pretence it killing investment on jobs.

Paying MP's LESS and cabinets they dont deserve there wage would save us bit. There many things we could do alot of this bill is rubbish. Should get 60k max its more enough with expenses to do the post. Better still maybe we should sack the lot for workfare.

There some dangerous presidency in this bill for one the DLA being dropped for Personal Independence Payment. there estimates some will lose there entitlement despite passing ATOS its about saving money not helping disabled get right help. Its about ripping up DLA contract some of which who passed there ATOS assesments time after time but will lose the award for life binding contract. These will be ones who been deemed wont get better but according to tories nobody sick for life according to bigoted MP's. Cameron should know as anyone there is people who will suffer for life. Cant he leave the poor beggers alone dont they suffer enough.

Another horrendous madcap idea.

One is telling housing associations to move rent in line of private landlord why not force landlords to prices more realistic or capping. Ours going up 6% this not being highlighted. Its madness.

Maybe tories should think better solutions. They should ban private renting of current mortage property. Dont own 100% without mortage/finance cant rent it. Only way would be part ownership with ocupied rent holder. Giving those security off not being evicted. Independent investigation of properties of private renting to see if its fit if not its reposed off them. Independant review of evictions saw how some **** operate on tv these need banning.

Agree what taf says what will happen as things go up will threshold be rectified. Where will families or people go yep on the streets as there no housing around to cover there poxy room tax. Surely there should be alternatives before it should not be everyone. If no alternative no tax no forcing them out. It should be also need by need spare rooms should be allowed if justified. Small home for box room ie it should be on MASTER room size bedrooms not box bedrooms.

Again build the bloomin houses first. Then what about those who followed words of certain MP called norman tebbitt on your Bike follow the jobs. Only to find years later redundancy deflated JOB MARKET. Do the stupid tories realise the unemployed market.

So they likely move in droves to cheaper areas of the north as example guess what no JOBS. They aint any for those who stayed so persacution with welfare for being privaledged to be unemployed. Shoved around the country like they piece dog mess on some suited arogant misinformed snob.

Anybody thinks this will effect big families with zillion kids are lightyears from it.

Sadly many disabled will be effected taf those who have carers who need 24 hours support.

I think this forum sums it up and poster.

http://forums.digitalspy.co.uk/showthread.php?t=1635815

Quote:

I genuinely pity anyone who gets their kicks from inflicting more suffering on the chronically ill and disabled. I am really glad that I cannot even begin to understand such a mentality.

Speaking as someone who will be unaffected by the welfare cuts, it is a very sad day for compassion, decency and the truth. However, anyone who thinks that this is all done and dusted is being very premature.

The fact that welfare cuts have been pushed through on a stream of lies and misrepresentations shows that the government have no moral justification, and indeed no fiscal justification, for their cuts.

The sad truth is that hundreds of thousands of genuine claimants will suffer. The likelihood is also that the taxpayer will suffer as many chronically ill/disabled people are forced to give up work (before being ordered to work for no salary on the work programme) and others are forced out of their homes and into highly expensive residential care and hospital.

It is sad that some ill-informed people think the WRB is about the benefit cap, when that is only a very small part. Today, the Joint Committee on Human Rights has published its report "Implementation of the Right of Disabled People to Independent Living" in the context of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities (UNCRPD) which was ratified by the UK in 2009.

It has confirmed what informed people have been saying for a long time:

- reforms to benefits and services risk leaving disabled people without the support they need to live independently
- restrictions in local authority eligibility criteria for social care support, the replacement of the Disability Living Allowance with Personal Independence Payment, the closure of the Independent Living Fund and changes to housing benefit risk interacting in a particularly harmful way for disabled people
- some people fear that the cumulative impact of these changes will force them out of their homes and local communities and into residential care

It also finds that:
- the Government had not conducted an assessment of the cumulative impact of current reforms on disabled people. The Report urges them do so, and to report on the extent to which these reforms are enabling them and local authorities to comply with their obligations under the UNCRPD
- the UNCRPD did not appear to have played a significant role in the development of policy and legislation, as is required by the Convention. The Committee therefore argues that the Government should make a commitment to Parliament that they will give due consideration to the articles of the Convention when making legislation

Further, the Committee deprecates changes to the duties of public authorities in England under the Equality Act 2010, which no longer require the production of equality impact assessments of changes in policy, nor the involvement of disabled people in developing policies which will affect them.

The Committee finds variations in the manner in which the devolved administrations have implemented the Convention, and uncertainty as to the role the UK Government should play in ensuring implementation.

The Committee also considers a range of other issues relating to independent living. It recommends that the Government should take further action to ensure that assessments for care needs are portable across the country in order to ensure disabled peopleâ€™s right to choose their place of residence.

It also expresses concern over a growing incidence of hate crime against disabled people and urges the Government take action to foster respect for the rights and dignity of disabled people.

While reforms and improvements could always be made, the government has rushed through this Act with little consideration as to how it will impact on genuine people, the consequences for the taxpayer, and it has consistently lied and misepresented the facts in order to gain public support. No decent person would support such behaviour.

As has been said on numerous occasions, our welfare spending has never been hugely generous. Over the last few years we have been marginally above the OECD average, having been marginally below the average in the previous few years. Our welfare spending in the noughties was the lowest, compared to GDP, in any decade since the 1950's. These are facts that the prejudiced coalition and their equally prejudiced disciples conveniently forget and sadly Labour are too ill-informed and spineless to counter the lies from the coalition and their friends in the gutter press.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

I was reading this earlier, and there was something about everyone will be assessed (to see if they can put them on the JSA) the only exceptions are people who are not expected to live for more than 6 months.

I expect those people get a letter starting with "Good news.."

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary L (Post 35391409)

The letters will read "we hear from your doctor you are not expected to live more then six months" But the "good" "news is we have found you a six week work placement at tesco in return for your benefit".:erm::erm:

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

When will people realise that democracy and capitalism in its current form is not working, this is going to result in increased poverty for families and the disabled, the being forced into certain areas and the perfect breeding ground for riots and political and religious extremism!

Meanwhile the rich have never had it so good, with the largest pay packets and dividends and their luxury lifestyles, even though they caused this mess!

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

The thing is, there is already a cap on benefits for most people.

If you are Income Support, they tell you how much they think you need to live on.

Then if you are a Carer they say "Thanks for being a Carer, here's Â£55.55 for your minimum 35 hour week (Â£1.59 per hour). Oh, and we''ll deduct that from your Income Support".

Then they bang on about NEETS, but if your disabled "child" is in college after reaching 20 years old, they remove all support for them (Child Tax Credits and Child Benefit), and they then have to run the ESA gauntlet to get something to live off. But ESA does not pay disabled premiums if they live with their Carer, and if they do get ESA, Housing Benefit is reduced for the parents!

But, and I'm seeing this a lot, if the student drops out of college and becomes NEET, then they can claim JSA which does entitle them to disabled premiums, and thus "perks" such as Â£120 help with heating costs each April! They get more money for being NEET!

---------- Post added at 12:50 ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 ----------

Quote:

"At this festive season of the year, Mr. Scrooge," said the gentleman, taking up a pen, "it is more than usually desirable that we should make some slight provision for the Poor and Destitute, who suffer greatly at the present time. Many thousands are in want of common necessaries; hundreds of thousands are in want of common comforts, sir."

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge.

"Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again.

"And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?"

"They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not."

"The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge.

"Both very busy, sir."

"Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I’m very glad to hear it."

"Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?"

"Nothing!" Scrooge replied.

"You wish to be anonymous?"

"I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don’t make merry myself at Christmas and I can’t afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned — they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there."

"Many can’t go there; and many would rather die."

"If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.

http://socialistresistance.org/3169/...n-duncan-smith

A long page, but well worth a read.

---------- Post added at 12:55 ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 ----------

Quote:

IDS (Iain Duncan Smith) is obsessed by work incentives as a cure for worklessness. If only it were that simple. Incentives don't overcome disabilities, cure illnesses, or look after ageing parents. And they don't create jobs either. Almost half – and I suspect this is an underestimate – of the six million people claiming out-of-work benefits face serious barriers to getting work. Work incentives barely register as an issue. If all our energy – by which I mean money – goes into addressing work incentives it will do nothing to help these people.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...benefit-reform

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

@taf, Good Post, I automatically read the part of Scrooge, in my head, as Alister Sim... I just couldn't help it.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35391634)

The thing is, there is already a cap on benefits for most people.

Yes on individual benefits ,there is nothing stopping the total of all benefits going way above the average wage .For example a couple with 8 kids living in a private rented house in westminster can get Â£8000 pm in HB and with all other benefits combined will be about Â£35-40000 per year .The new cap will stop that and keep the total of all combined benefits below Â£26,000 .This does not apply to some disability benefits though ,they remain untouched

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

I agree with that, by far the biggest payouts in benefits go straight into the pockets of buy-to-let landlords. This is one thing that HAS to stop, and steps are in place to do so. One Iranian who owns 1% of the UK's housing stock has put the lot up for sale. He gave his reasons, but I think he saw the writing on the wall that rental income is about to plunge. I can't find a link to the that story... sorry!

Then there are the benefits that encourage breeding-for-money. One or two kids with state help I'd agree with, we'll need workers and their taxes in the future, but 6/7/8/9/10 kids? No way! Especially when the parent(s) are not working though choice.

The trouble is, any cuts that cause child poverty will be attacked......

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

Found the Iranian story!

http://www.iranian.com/main/2012/jan...1-all-uk-homes

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35391756)

That is the biggest problem,young teens seeing pregnancy as a ticket for a free life on benefits ,there are very few everyday jobs that could support a family of 6/7/8/9 kids but getting young mums to realise that you can only have what you can afford and that includes kids is going to be hard

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35391764)

agreed but not sure it should be absolute all trousers fit all approach.

Take family who can afford 1 kid but invertively the pregnancy gets a freek 2-6 babies. It was not there fault unplaned.

Also sometimes birth control fails again not there fault but in this its grey area if the birth control was not properly used.

Educating kids who do underage pregnancies this big issue in uk needs better work from government on education.

It will be slow process but we have to be mindful mistakes unexpected in life happens.

Not 100% sure all those pregnancies was used as ticket to free life. I would expect many had ambitions in life but life throw spanners. Some down more to scruplous men/boys taking there vunerability in life then getting pregnant fleeing.

Just giving food for thought to the argument so balanced discusion is given. There like some will play the game but should safety nets removed or help removed due to them. I say no.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 35391884)

That does happen but extreme exceptions are usually catered for by society and modern contraception does work most of the time if people bother to use it ,but i accept that accidents do happen and the system does cater for that

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

The Welfare Reform Bill is wrong and all it does it help the rich even more, it will make the genral public even worse off and it should be scraped!!

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35392095)

The Welfare Reform Bill is wrong and all it does it help the rich even more, it will make the genral public even worse off and it should be scraped!!

Are you going to say something different for once instead of spamming in every thread with the same statement.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

I am one of the undecided.

I see how some genuinely in need will suffer, but equally i look at some who are supported by benefits, and I wonder why.

I don't think everyone has a right to a child, if you can't support that child. To choose to bring a child into the world, you must be able to support that child.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35392106)

Are you going to say something different for once instead of spamming in every thread with the same statement.

The same statment applies to anything that helps keep up the rich and the system they created!

How can you get people into work, when there are hardly any decents jobs around!!

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35392123)

The same statment applies to anything that helps keep up the rich and the system they created!

How can you get people into work, when there are hardly any decents jobs around!!

What has the number of available jobs got to with keeping people on disability benefits when they shouldn't be, or paying out ridiculous amounts to people with kids.

Define 'decent' jobs? How many of the people you are talking about would be able, never mind willing, to do those 'decent' jobs. Who would do the 'indecent' jobs, that still need doing.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35392115)

I see how some genuinely in need will suffer, but equally i look at some who are supported by benefits, and I wonder why.

Every system will have weak spots that some will take advantage of, especially if those administering the system are of low morale or are given conflicting instruction from above their pay grade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35392115)

I don't think everyone has a right to a child, if you can't support that child. To choose to bring a child into the world, you must be able to support that child.

The trouble comes when the parent(s) become involuntarily unemployed, whether for the short or long term. Losing your job through redundancy is not the same as having to leave your job to care for a disabled or infirm member of the immediate family that no-one else will care for.That is why the benefits system must remain as a safety net AFAIC.

Tarring all on benefits with the same brush is idiotic, as each case will probably be different, so no one set of rules will be fair and compassionate.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35392123)

How can you get people into work, when there are hardly any decents jobs around!!

There are plenty of jobs around. Why do you think so many people from Eastern Europe decided to come here? If someone whose first language isn't English, so immediately is at a disadvantage, can get a job fairly easily why do you think that is?

Is it A-all employers secretly hate British people or B-they tend to take jobs that some see as beneath them and won't work for it when they are paid the same, or in some cases more, for being unemployed.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35392133)

There are plenty of jobs around. Why do you think so many people from Eastern Europe decided to come here?

From personal experience:

A. because our welfare system appears very lucrative to many.

B. because contracts are being bid for by Eastern European bosses, and if they win the contract, they then import workers from Eastern Europe.

C. because workers from further east have now displaced them in their own countries.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35392128)

The number of jobs affects how many people can get off benefits and into work!

Also the disabled cannot help if they cannot get back into work, especially of they are paying the price for the rich and benefit cheats!

This affects Families of all times!

No one complains about the handout's government gives to businesses and the rich!

A decent job is where you get a decent wage, benefits and pension, also the job is rewarding as well!

---------- Post added at 14:10 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35392133)

Those job are not decent jobs, also we need to CREATE decent job, not move people into them!

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan Fry (Post 35392149)

A decent job is where you get a decent wage, benefits and pension, also the job is rewarding as well!

---------- Post added at 14:10 ---------- Previous post was at 14:09 ----------

Those job are not decent jobs, also we need to CREATE decent job, not move people into them!

Sorry, rewarding job is not a good criteria..but agree with a reasonable wage...reasonable pension...not sure about benefits

Just thinking..if you mean...benefits = something from your work extra...then working for virgin and getting cheap broadband sounds ok..but working for a poo company..and getting to take some home..not so good

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35392152)

Define reasonable wage etc. That is going to different for different people(ie single, married, with children, drinker, smoker, etc). Raise the income levels and yet more people will come to this country.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Not trying to define..but i view reasonable wage as being enough to live on.

That will vary...but having been in a crappy paying job..and a reasonable paying job..I know definition to me.

And you aren't forced to drink, smoke, marry, have children..etc

You are forced to eat, sleep and drink water...after that..it becomes a choice..more money you get...more choices you make

For me...sky tv..broadband

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35392169)

Not trying to define..but i view reasonable wage as being enough to live on.

That will vary...but having been in a crappy paying job..and a reasonable paying job..I know definition to me.

And you aren't forced to drink, smoke, marry, have children..etc

You are forced to eat, sleep and drink water...after that..it becomes a choice..more money you get...more choices you make

For me...sky tv..broadband

So the amount paid in JSA, HB, & CTB covers it?

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Who is talking about JSA, HB & CTB

I said a reasonable wage...for doing work

I didn't comment on benefits...my comment was on the previous comment about a decent job etc made by Alan Fry

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35392176)

Who is talking about JSA, HB & CTB

I said a reasonable wage...for doing work

I didn't comment on benefits...my comment was on the previous comment about a decent job etc made by Alan Fry

You were the one that used the phrase 'enough to live on'.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35392178)

You were the one that used the phrase 'enough to live on'.

And you misconstued it to mean JSA etc..not me...so your point is what?

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin25 (Post 35392204)

And you misconstued it to mean JSA etc..not me...so your point is what?

I said the 'amount paid in JSA', not JSA itself. By definition JSA is meant to be 'enough to live on', therefore by your own reasoning the same amount is a 'reasonable wage as being enough to live on'. What then is the definition of a 'reasonable wage'?

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Perhaps I am not being clear..i commented on Alan Fry's comment about a decent job etc..time of comment is 14:10

Can't explain any better than that

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

AFAIK JSA, ESA or IS are considered "enough" to live on IF you have full council tax benefits to pay the community charge and rent too? Or are living with someone who has full council tax benefits?

Although in the latter case, they will end up paying some of the charges due to income into that home, if someone else in the home brings home JSA, ESA or IS.

It'll all be as clear as mud once Universal Benefits start.....

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

I cant see the cap causing any major issues. 26k is a LOT of money to live on each year as long as luxuries are kept low and no huge existing debts like a mortgage.

I was shocked to find out tho the planned new age discrimination on housing benefit raising the shared room rate from 25 to 35 will actually effect existing claimants from this year, thats going to make people homeless. The descrepency housing fund will be stretched with that one.

---------- Post added at 21:10 ---------- Previous post was at 21:07 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derek (Post 35392133)

There is 3 issues here really.

1 - the jobs tend to be congregated in certian areas. Hence some areas its a lot easier to find work than others, in theory people could just move but life isnt that simple.
2 - many jobs are temporary and short term, so can hardly be called real jobs but rather provide a gap in benefit dependency.
3 - many advertised jobs dont actually exist.

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:10 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35391752)

The single most biggest effect on benefits is children. Before now there was no cap at all to benefit income with number of children. the only cap of sorts was the number of rooms allowed in a property. This 26k cap is only going to affect a small tiny % of claimants but those it does affect will probably have a shock if they significantly above it. The 35 age limit on one room flats judging by the amount it saves (a pittance) is probably also not going to affect very many but that one will likely wreck lives. The sort of changes on the welfare been pushed through is what I dont like as they targeting the wrong areas, the areas been targeted are the politically friendly ones rather than the most expensive ones.

Also doing things to reduce housing benefits like dropping LHA from bottom 50% to bottom 30% wont make market rents go down, instead it makes the claimant just have to subsidise the rent more. Or add extra strain on councils with their discretionary housing fund.

The only thing that will make market rents go down is reducing demand per house which is effectively to build more houses, particurly council houses/flats.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

After I left the RAF, I shared houses/flats for five years (up to the age of 29) - it was all I could afford (I was working, new into IT at the time)?

Why should housing benefit be paid so they can have a place of their own, when those in work are sharing a house.

Doesn't sound very equitable to me.

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf (Post 35391272)

That's the starting post, just to be clear.

To the OP: may I ask how many children you have?

Re: The Welfare Reform Bill is almost law