The NHS reform discussion thread
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-16976199

Wonder if langsbury stick head fast to reforms that clearly wrong for the nhs. Starting to feel he got also something to gain by pushing it through.

Only ones backing it those who will gain financially from it trust bosses, small percentage GP's and private healthcare, insurance companies. What ties has lansbury got to be pig headed his reforms are right when majority say he wrong.

It does need some work its top heavy with management we need reform which puts Frontline services at the front.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Much as I like Adam Ant I can't help but feel he should stick with pop music rather than sticking his dandy highwayman nose into politics and the NHS!

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

If I remember rightly, the BMA were against the creation of the NHS....;)

---------- Post added at 00:10 ---------- Previous post was at 00:06 ----------

Perhaps he is now working in the maternity ward, where he can "Stand and Deliver".....

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

:D

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Whilst i completely agree with the government that both welfare and the nhs need reform they are going about it in totally the wrong way. We can only hope the nhs reform is shelved before they do real damage to it. The persistence of this government in pushing ahead with their near universally condemned reforms makes me think they don't believe they will have more then one term in office so have to plough forward no matter what.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

I am curious for doctor's point of view in this thread?

As a patient my feeling is the NHS in its current state has issues, and things need to change however I dont like the idea of handing budgets over to GPs and removing trusts. Who do I complain to about GP's at that point? Also this will open a big can of worms on corruption with lots of budget been dished out to private firms.

I am off the view profits should never be a part of healthcare and welfare.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

true but do many come on post My GP against it I asked him there is he said some good bits but its outwayed by dangerous legislation and poorly designed he thinks its even rushed not been thought out enough. He even dont think enough profesionals at all levels been consulted.

BEEB got list who for who against its grim reading for lansbury. I am sure Cameron fully behind him sadly regardless profesionals will see it through why else are they running roughshod over lords.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-16954223

RizzyKing I agree there is areas where rework could be done which would provide value for money and not impact on frontline healthcare or there jobs.

Rework is neaded not complete break up turn it into american style healthcare system.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

The NHS will always be a bottom less money pit & Doctors should carefully consider not what they "can" do but what they "must" do with regard to the whole population & health. Reform is needed. However, surely it would be better to save money in the current economic crisis rather than spending a huge amount stubbornly pushing through a new system with no proof of savings.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

The NHS reforms are a waste of time and money!

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Local GPs have put their own money into improving a health centre Linky
This was started prior to the current governments plans, yet will no doubt be held up as a beacon of what can be done. :dozey:

The majority know something needs to be done with the Health Service, just that an expensive wholesale decimation is not the answer at the moment. Too far, too fast.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Well you see that reality and fantasy are hard to understand for some people heero.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

No, they need to invest far, far more money and staff, ditch PFI and provide better services.

Not more reorginsation and competition and the breakup and selloff of the NHS!

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

I'm getting irritated with this debate.
Anyone who thinks doctors & nurses are qualified to meaningfully pontificate on the future of the nhs is deluded. Why? They often can't get their diagnoses right, they botch treatment, drug companies have far too much influence on their decision making and patients end up dying of or as a by-product of malnutrition.
Nurses can't even turn patients to stop bed sores.
We have junior doctors in A&E who can't diagnose angina (see last nights TV) and who can't diagnose a fractured wrist (and deny it's there) even when it is pointed out to them on xray (by me).
Nurses who can't warm up my hypothermic father because they don't know that they have to turn on the heater in the warm air blanket till I point out that they are blowing cold air on a 75yo hypothermic patient!
How about the brand new Pembury hospial that didn't have any of the common prescription heart drugs that that my mother needed when she was admitted last weekend?
Cr*p as they often can be (not always) they are our best hope when we or our loved ones are critically ill. With that in mind we really do need to try to get the nhs working properly, 'cos it isn't at the moment......these reforms might be a chance to make things better and we shouldn't dismiss them out of hand just because a tory government came up with them or medical professionals disagree with them.

</rant>

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

These reforms will just make things worse, this would be the case even if Labour proposed this and the medical profession was 100% behind them!

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Agree - I reckon lots of money could be saved without embarking on root and branch reforms which could turn out to be another costly debacle. Get the basics right then start tackling the rest??

high level nhs meeting with cameron but critics of the reforms not invited
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17083357

How far will this government go to bully ahead changes when profesional people denied audiance to ally there fears help shape NHS reforms.

Government showing they will tread on everybody shoes unles your CEO, Banker or someone hoarding millions negating paying you tax by arranging accounts to fluffy your dog.

Day after day we see cameron and cronies further lose the plot and it surely at some point even most ardent government supporters will wain from support.

Surely if the NHS needs reforms then ALL parts NHS bodies HAVE RIGHT to SHAPE it. That includes the ELECTORATE.

Re: high level nhs meeting with cameron but critics of the reforms not invited
 

The "ELECTORATE" did shape it - it was called the 2010 General Election.

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Re: Despite growing pressure from professionals/back bench Lansley adamant on reform
 

Nice to see a genuine post that is not just the old political rhetoric from the " we hate the tories so it must be wrong group"

:clap:

Re: high level nhs meeting with cameron but critics of the reforms not invited
 

Not quite Hugh as the NHS reform on the basis it is currently being rolled out was not mentioned in the maifestos of either the Tories or Liberal Democrats ,so have not really passed the "electorate"test.

In fact before the 2010 General Election David Cameron was even saying "No more top down reform of the NHS"

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The electorate didnt shape anything.

it seems its fine for a party to say one thing and do another after elected without legal repurcussions.

not to mention the majority of the country has little to no voting power in a general election.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

To be honest that has happened after EVERY election

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Actually most if not all the changes where in the conservative manifesto for the 2010 general election

http://www.general-election-2010.co....y-back-the-nhs

a few snippets

We will strengthen the power of gPs as patients’ expert guides through the health system by:
• giving them the power to hold patients’ budgets and commission care on their behalf;
• linking their pay to the quality of their results; and,
• putting them in charge of commissioning local health services. trust healthcare professionals

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Have not got time to reply in full heres amother snippet.

.

We will stop the forced closure of a&e and maternity wards, so that people have better access to local services, and give mothers a real choice over where to have their baby, with nhS funding following their decisions. We will create local ‘maternity networks’ to ensure that mothers can safely access the right care, in the right place, at the right time.



Chase farm hospital is about to lose its A/E dept in an enforced closure so much for that then.:erm:

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

erm ....it's not a forced government closure ,it was recommended to the government by the IRP (Independent Reconfiguration Panel),i would assume because of the main A&E at Barnet a couple of miles down the road

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Right i can reply a bit more in length now where in the conservative manifesto in 2010 did it state up to 49% of beds in NHS hospitals could be used for private patients.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-16337904

Thats quite a major change from the way it stands now.

I also did not see any mention of deregulated tariffs for hospitals.

Currently hospitals have to charge a fixed tariff for a specific procedure, but under the reforms, they will be allowed to charge lower, more competitive prices. The British Medical Association has "concerns over the use of... deregulated tariffs in the NHS, because this system brings with it price competition, which can risk basing decisions on price rather than on clinical need".

Read more: http://www.theweek.co.uk/politics/85...#ixzz1mpt9Ajpi

This is what David Cameron said about chase farm A/E .

But Cameron indicated his support for Chase Farm in October that year when, as leader of the opposition, he visited the hospital and said: "What I would say to Gordon Brown is if you call an election on 1 November we'll stop the closure of services at this hospital on 2 November."

Ms Fonyonga, 28, held a copy of the Evening Standard aloft at the conference showing Mr Lansley with a "hands off Chase Farm A&E" pledge card. This month the Government backed a panel's recommendations on Chase Farm's services.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

http://www.general-election-2010.co....y-back-the-nhs

yes they did ,the deregulated tarriffs will be in conjunction with "best practice" for each procedure so no matter what is charged the same standard must be adhered to


I repeat Chase farm A&E was not closed by the government it was a recommended closure by the IRP


If you think that political parties put all proposals in minute detail into their manifestos then you are mistaken ,however in the case of NHS reform it was quite comprehensively covered ,so you can't say that the voting public didn't have a chance to vote for it .

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I wonder who the IRP are though are they some quango that can enforce closures against what the local public would like.? The independant reconfiguration panel does not sound very democratic to me.

And them recommending closures and ministers agreeing sounds enforced to me! unless the local public have their say and are listened to.

GP fund holding might work but i have very deep reservations about the rest as i have linked to,in our area the GPs are not very keen on fundholding anyhow,as they can see arguments with patients who believe that GPs may withold treatment due to budgets and very frosty patient doctor relationships might develop as a result.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

You could always have just googled it.

IRP

It was set up in 2003 by the previous Government, and here are its Terms of Reference

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I did and thought it was not very democratic unless the public have elected members on it.

The last Labour government were also very wrong abolishing the community health councils.:mad:

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

It's not meant to be democratic ,they make recomendations which are then put through to government and public consultation

from Hughs link

Quote:

B1. To offer pre-formal consultation generic advice and support to NHS and other interested bodies on the development of local proposals for reconfiguration or significant service change - including advice and support on methods for public engagement and formal public consultation.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The community health councils were far more public focussed trouble is they were too successful so government got rid.:mad:

Yes they do make recommendations maryh, and the public were very against chase farm closure from their consultation ! But the quango based IRC recommended closure and the government agreed meaning to me it was enforced.

But there you are such is life,the government of any hue shouts about local democracy but in practice does not really want it in action.:(

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I understand what you are saying richard but sometimes public wishes have to be tempered by practical and funding limitations

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Yes i realise that martyh but the poiticians should be honest from the start not say no more enforced closures and then whammy,feeling they are being lied to is what got politicians a bad name in the first place.

We had two local A/E departments closed years back being promised a centre of excellence on one site with the money saved used to provide one,result our local hospital is doing less and less with far more travelling for the patients the motto of that is"politicians speak with forked tongue":erm:

The thing that has got me was nobody voted for up to 49% of some NHS hospitals income coming from private patients that was sneaked in by a member of the Lords i think, that if carried through is a very fundemental change from the current 2% allowed i guess they did not want to frighten people around voting day.

But as always we will have to see how it pans out.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

probably yes.

doesnt make it right tho.

Re: high level nhs meeting with cameron but critics of the reforms not invited
 

No it was the media and the poltical and business elite who back it!!! :mad:

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Bless.....

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I work for the NHS and while GP's have a say on what happens there is a lot that can go wrong. communication for one thing. We are handing over a lot of our regular prescriptions to them in order to ease the work load but I can see a lot of things going wrong as any medications changed letters have to be written up and sent to the GP.

Staff shortages mean we have to cover other areas upto an hours travel from base. Staff taxis used to cover the travel costs because we are covering other areas out of our normal place of work. Now they want to stop that and we have to pay to travel and cover other areas out of our own pockets so if someone is off sick for 2 week and we have to travel 30 miles they get paid full sick pay and then we lose out of our pockets covering them.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

So much for the government caring for the NHS!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Gavin78 what you said makes no sense, seems someone without a clue making decisions.

I can imagine there is a lot of sick leave in the nhs, imagine working as a doctor in a NHS hospital with your waiting room constantly overflowing and having to rush time with each patient, probably very stressful. Also probably cant admit patients that need it due to bed shortages.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I dont make sense? well unless you work for the NHS on the front lines then you wouldn't? I mean its ok for people to comment on the papers but people dont know jack unless you are there in the thick of it.

The GP's in my area of work dont like to deal with the patients if they can help it and always refer them back to our SHO's because they find the medications and health problems too complex.

I'm not saying GP's will help in certain areas but the work load for them will effect "general" people who need a doctors appointment and may miss the diagnosis.

Handing over control to them is going to cause more problems than not....If a bed is not available then it doesn't matter if its come from the GP or the consultant. This is down to the bed board.

We have suffered the back lash of cuts we deal with around 70 patients a day 6 days a week each patients costing the NHS around 50k a year. right down to cheaper equipment. patient care as fallen because paper work has increased its hard these days to do 1-1 care.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Strangely enough, hospital doctors have one of the lowest sickness absences.

This spreadsheet shows that, on average, the annualised figures are -

Ambulance Staff 6.05%
Administration and Estates 3.37%
Healthcare Assistants and Other Support Staff 6.03%
Medical and Dental Staff* 1.09%
Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting Staff 4.79%
Nursing, Midwifery and Health Visiting Learners 1.04%
Scientific, Therapeutic and Technical Staff 3.14%
Healthcare Scientists 3.03%

*including consultants, registrars and other doctors in training.
Data for medical and dental staff are an annual snapshot of the number of doctors within hospital and community health services (HCHS) of the NHS. It excludes General Practitioners, GP practice staff and high street dentists.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I found interesting blog it LISTS all the MP's from all parties and Peers who have vested interest in allowing private sector in NHS.

Its big list fear this real reason why it will never get buried. Its nothing to do about what good for the NHS whose company and MP or Peer can rake in the money to aid there big fat retirement.

http://socialinvestigations.blogspot...lation-of.html

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Those are eye opening figures for sure.

I think the most stressed staff in hospitals in my view are doctors, they always the ones swamped with work whenever I go, rather than nurses. eg. when going to the eye clinic, the nurse see's everyone within 5 minutes. But then its a 30+ min wait for the doctor after. In eye casualty its even worse, 4 nurses and only 1 doctor, see a nurse within 5-10 minutes then usually 4 hours at least wait for the doctor. Once when I went to a cardic department on an ambulance, I remember seeing a group of nurses chatting to each other for a while, but any doctor I seen seemed always busy. I think was 2 doctors in that department.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Doctors do have a heavy workload but all the ones i know tend to have a way of coping by learning not to stress out most of the ones i come into contact with in the NHS are quite relaxed until they have a real emergency on their hands.

I did a course a few years ago stressful jobs in the NHS came up and we all got the answer wrong according to the course leader the most stressful job was a medical secretary as they get shouted at from all sides with letters needing to be written,Medical notes found and phone calls made ,certainly i have seen medical secretaries shouted at.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I don't know if anyone saw this in The Guardian today. It paints a bleak picture but surely things aren't as bad as that

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...-waiting-lists

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The NHS needs more money and more resources and less reform and PFI!!! :mad: :td:

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The NHS does need reforming but an issue that would face any government of any persuasion is that those who get to implement any change are those who are most in need of reforming and the ones who actually never get reformed.

As a crude example, say it's identified that job cuts are needed. The first task is to employ lots more admin and HR bods to implement those cuts. Nett result is there is little saving but degradation of service.

I used to work in the NHS back some years and I bet it hasn't changed much. Far too much bureaucracy and middle management (who can't manage), huge waste and inefficiency.

We promote the best (nurses, doctors, technicians) to management roles that they may not be suited to and keep the less good in those jobs.

We don't get rid of the dead wood who stay employed by just doing the work they are paid for, no initiative, no desire to do extra but they are "covered" by "The Unions", often they are the union reps.

So we need to get the best people into the jobs they are best at and empower them to make those jobs better. This may mean "promoting" less good (doctors, nurses, technicians) to management roles they may excel at and keeping good ones in the roles they love. (Need to address rewards here.)

Focus treatment where it is best needed, we can't afford everything. To my mind focus on prevention more than cure, maybe business needs to pay a little to this end in short term as they benefit if staff don't go off "sick". This is the hard one, if you are one who is in need of treatment then you need it.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

All very true, exactly the same is going on at the trust I work for at the moment!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The NHS needs more money and resources, not reform! Until the NHS gets the resources and money, only then can the NHS reform and in a way that does not involve competition and the private and voluntary sector!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Alan, the NHS year on year has had more money and resources - in fact, the NHS budget in 2003 was £67 billion, and in 2013 will be £125 billion, which is nearly doubling in 10 years.

When would be the right time to reform?

As long as services are free at the point of need, why does it matter who supplies them?

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The trust i work for is going through massive change at the moment with the PCT that we used to work for due to be wound up in 2013,loads of redundancies have taken place and people are still going.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Working the the NHS as i do i think you are being a little harsh there.

As we are seeing with the JSA workfare scheme being investigated several times by the police in relation to A4e once you have profit hungry companies involved and large amounts of money changing hands,private companies have been involved in the NHS in the shape of PFI and look what has happened.

http://www.healthdirect.co.uk/pfi-ri...s_ripoffs.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...hospitals.html

A word of warning to all those wishing to see a much greater involvement of private companies in the NHS be careful of what you wish for the companies are not be run by charites.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

So why do I have to pay for Cancer Drug, Dentists and Prescriptions (In England)?

Also, the increase was only enough to compensate for the many years for under investment, we need to spend far, far more!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

It matters because something has to give when profits are involved.

To a private company its profits > everything else. They have to think of the bottom line first. Especially if its a shareholder owned company.

Private healthcare is ok when the rich are the customers because they will pay the premium needed to get good healthcare and for the company to make their profit. But when it has to supply to millions of poor people the margins will drop and they will cost cut.

The 125 billion budget isnt the problem, we were simply correcting the fact the nhs was so under funded under the previous tory government. It is still less funded than other developed countries as a % of GDP.

The waste that occurs in the NHS I would expect alot of it is private contractors milking the NHS knowing its funded by the government. Its common practice for private companies to think they hit the jackpot whenever government money is involved.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Please can you be Heath Secretary!

---------- Post added at 10:41 ---------- Previous post was at 10:36 ----------

Why should health workers face a wage cut?

As for Competition, take the USA for example and I would rather have one good heathcar provider, rather than many bad ones!

Until I see the rich selling they cars, yachts, planes and other luxury good, I am not convinced that we are in "straitened times"

Also I 100% disagree with PFI and we should pay all the debts relating to it and ban its use!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Will competition drive down costs though PFI contracts were awared only after ahem competition rather then drive down prices they seem to have increased, as you said the private companies see public money as a free bonanza.

They may well decrease the size of the wage bill but one things for sure they will not cut down on their profit bill,and instead of money being directed at staff shareholders will see a windfall.

I would not suggest keeping things as they are however behind the scenes big changes are currently happening, with in effect PCTs being stripped and a layer of management is going and GPs being put in charge of comissioning,for good or bad although many seem quite reluctant.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

One thing that should go is locking patients to their postcode.

eg. all the GPs in my inner city area are of low standard but in areas outside of the city council they are of much higher quality but because of where I live I cant use them. If patients were given freedom to go where they like for healthcare then there is competition within the nhs but still kept as a public provided service.

Is this what you mean?

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The only problem i could see with that being there are surgeries were i live and neighbouring areas where the surgery is fit to bursting and they simply could not take in other patients from neighbouring postcode areas.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Fancy buying shares in NHS plc?

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

If i was a private contractor would love some.;)

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Is you company called Richard Healthcare? :D

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

That is a likely outcome yes.

However budgets could follow the patients so the good areas with extra patients would get more budget to cope.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Yes thats one possibilty do not know what its like where you live but the surgeries around here would need to be larger as the more successful ones would need to take on more GPs to cope.

I for instance would like to change my surgery but the one i would like to register with could not physically cope with any extra pateints in their current building, even with extra funding following the patient .

But where it is possible i think it is a very good idea in principle .:)

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Strange you don't mention the German or the Australian models, which seem to work quite well....;)

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

yeah its one of those things that seems a good idea but could of course blow up.

its very possible that cities which are overwhelmed and masses of patients moving to better served areas may simply move a problem and previous good areas become swamped and decline. However I do feel patients should have choice as the alternative is paying to move which I feel is wrong.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Can you explain these models?

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Now Royal college of paediatrics called for the bill to be scrapped.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-17142643

I cant see how cameron and his fellow cronies can force this through. I dont think anybody in illusion things need changing but proposals not good for NHS or patients.

The longer cameron pesist with his head strung atitude pigheadedness the worse his political future is dead duck.

I think if he pesists bankbenchers will start to panick on there future try bail a damage limitation kick his sorry ass out of no10.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

He can carry on because public sector reform is the purview of government, not trade unions. For all their vaunted titles, that's what these Royal Colleges and Associations are. They are trade unions acting in the interests of their members.

They have a voice in this process; they do not have a veto.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

But will worry if Lib Dems and Tories MP's turn against the bill! Already the Lib Dems are not keen!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

If you read what the reforms are all about then you will find that freedom of choice is one of the changes



you may this informative

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Or you could look them up.....:rolleyes:

Oz

Deutschland

10 seconds of effort.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

sadly there is a load more change as well tho.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Why sadly ? .Too many people are unhappy with the NHS in it's current form ,my wife has been waiting 18 months because of continual cancelations,i tried to make an appointment with my gp a few months back ,trouble is they don't make appointments any more you phone up(between 8-9am) and see if any doctor is available that day if not you have to phone the next day and so on ,it's pathetic ,the whole nhs needs tearing down and rebuilding

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Hospitals I cant say but did few years back wait over 2 years for MRI ended up being sent to private mobile one. I had few cancellation too.

Our GP if you want appointment that day then yes phone 8-9am to check if free appointment ie cancellation. To be honest not unusual.

You can turn up if its serious and the reception will squeeze you in done it myself cut my self to the tendons it did not bleed got rushed into se doc they glued it. You can turn up book appointment I do it all the time prefere in person so get card to remember it.. Our doc also credits special for certain patients who get priority if they need to see him. they dont need to phone up just turn up get see doc after he seen patient.

We had the same system lots patients complained they dropped it for more flexible system which more patient friendly.

Hope you get it changed

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Have you even read this thread?

Mainly because politicions get too hot headed (or whoever is telling them what to do) and tend to change too much at once. We see this time and time again with reforms.

Competition within the NHS itself is probably a good thing but not bringing in the private sector.

I can see ATOS bidding for contracts for a start.

I agree with you on the appointments but thats no reason to rebuild it, all that needs is an order from the health department to GP surgeries telling them its compulsory to allow advance appointments, job done. Of course government wont do that because precious waiting list times will go up. This same issue will likely exist after a rebuild for the same reason.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Patients may have the "right " to choose a GP but if that GP is oversubscribed the GP will have the "right" also to not have that patient on their books.

---------- Post added at 08:12 ---------- Previous post was at 08:08 ----------

I agree with the points you make.:)

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

ATOS and the NHS - now there's two things I don't want to see working together.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Believe you me you would not want to see some of the PFI companies and the NHS working together either.:erm:

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I have read both of these articles, and I think that a model like that might work, but without competition and NHS still as one organsation, but we all need to have higher wages to compensate (for heath insurance costs) and to have that we need to have less restrictions on unions!

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Can modes put new info in title

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17169519

Former NHS CHief Lord Crisp calls the bill a mess confused and confusing will put the NHS backwards. He goes on its a Great Mistake its mess and unecessary in many way and misses the point.

Simply wow this worry to the least The government intend bully through a heap of rubbish.

What we need is the best bits with all sides shaping the bill if it means labour/cons/libs NHS staff to do it then so bit.

Just maybe with that lot singing same hym will get NHS to be proud off. Surely its not hard to get all around table thrash out bill everyone agrees too.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

On the last few occasions, I have phoned at 8am for emergency appts for my wife and got appts within the hour. Sure the NHS has its faults but what the Tories are proposing is just the start of a slippery slope towards what all Tories really love...putting money before people.

I heard a complaint by one of our patients (I work in a hospital) who said that the Doctor was rude to her. What had happened was that the patient had trotted out that old chestnut about the NHS being like a third worl"d system and the doctor had replied "where I come from, you'd be left to die in the street". People are too quick to moan and gripe about the NHS. Of course, we all have a choice right now to pay for private medical insurance.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

I feel the NHS strength is its emergency reaction, so been left to die in the street in other countries we better in that respect.

However I still feel we poor on chronic non life threatening illnesses, we also have a poor record with cancer.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Well this is all set to pass. Can't understand why the Liberal Democrats supported this, it surely deeply unpopular with their core voters and any floating Labour voters.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

government say will be even installed next we after lords now passed it.

The arrogance the trash cabinet banging there hands on table with glee to no doubt the millions which they well get. Theres no other reason other personal gain why the NHS being destroyed.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17447992

This very disturbing how open the bill is to introduce more privatisation. Not just that many things will now go paywall.

http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d2996.full

Hell its noticable the crooked way beeb reported whole affair demo's ignored as media blackout ensued. Even when doctor nurses, disabled was faced with guns and kettled despite a peaceful demo. The worlds news ignored this hope they all rot in hell.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The NHS bill is a waste of time and money and all it will do is destory the NHS and nothing but a sell off of the NHS

Really shows how bad this government is

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Well there is a ballot box to show your disgust Alan and if you are unhappy with things use it.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

The NHS is the State religion, Heero, and attempting to reform it is heresy. ;)

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

:) so once every 4-5 years he gets to show his disgust and should be quiet the rest of the time?

if he is in a safe area that voice also means nothing.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Did l say he should be quiet no l did not as everybody is entitled to a opinion but there is a opinion and then there is Mr AF and there is a big difference between the two Chrysalis.:)

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

No i make you right on that and will wait for these reforms to bed in before seeing the effects.

The only thing i would say is whilst publicly owned he NHS does provide countability and therefore its not always a bad thing and private ownership of services is not always a bad thing either.

But having seen how the NHS has been fleeced by profit hungry PFI companies i would issue a caution be careful what you wish for these companies have shareholders to feed.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

This would all cost a lot of money employing those sorts of people i have seen "consultants" such as these would be in use plenty of times at vast cost ,we had some in our department around about a year ago in the NHS.

Would they save lots of money the juries out on that one they would certainly cost it,but i would say a lot of specialists in that line of work may have links to companies awarded contracts anyway or certainly know directors of said cmpanies ,just as many top directors sit on each ohers renumeration commitees handing out contracts for the boys.

It may work but that is a gamble at least, and another thing he NHS is open for freedom of information as a public entity so info can be obtained, freedom of information ASAIK does not apply to private organisations,so the ability to get info could also be compromised in the process.

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

Which is why I did not vote either Tory or Lib Dem last time round

---------- Post added at 11:15 ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 ----------

It is not always the case that prviate is bad/efficient and public good/inefficient, the NHS should never be run like a business, if you don't agree then see this film before making up your mind

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicko

There are well run public sector organsations/companies and poorly run private sector organsations/companies

Remember the sell offs of the Gas/Electric/Water companies, all it benifited was the rich and we had to pay the price

Remember Enron and the banks, look how well they were run :D

Remember the fact the system benefits the rich at the expence of us

Lastly the 70s was manly caused by high fuel prices, bad management, underinvestment and the decline of the UKs power on the international stage

Re: The NHS reform discussion thread
 

No l think any party who knew you were voting for are likely to run halfway around the world to get away from your voting intentions.:)