Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

We have a member in the "Eurozone will collapse" thread who thinks that a United States Of Europe will cure all that is wrong with the EU.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

it wouldnt cure everything, like the united states of america doesnt cure its problems either.

however I would rather be in a united states of europe then a cut off lone island who has no friends.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

well said!!!

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

need it or not, like it or not, want it or not, it will happen

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

The simple answer is no.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Breaking News

Apparently Eurozone leaders have postponed their talks on reform whilst awaiting the result of this poll!!

:D

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I don't know if I should answer Yes Or No, because I don't know what a United States Of Europe is.

I'd say No to it sounding just like United States Of America though.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

We need a United States of Europe or Britain (and Europe) will fade into obscurity!

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I'll abstain on this one. It's too complex a subject for a Yes/No poll. That's one of the reasons I wouldn't want to put it to the British Public in referendum.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Do you think that billons of pounds of our money should be used to prop up other countries then instead as is happening at present and that is money we will in all likelihood never see again.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

It's a tad late for that, and no idea what you think it would achieve but if you think it would arrest the terminal decline in % of world GDP you're wrong. The EU accelerated the decline, it's not rocket science what more integration will do.

When you mix something, such as a rich nation like UK or Germany, with a poorer one such as Greece or Romania, you don't suddenly get more wealth than either had before, you get the mid point as one funds the other.

You can already see this effect here in the UK from waves of immigration. Removing the fluff of unprecented public and private debt from the equation our real GDP growth per capita has been negative, immigration en masse hasn't made the UK richer, why would blending 27 economies have a different effect?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I dont think they will get the answer they want :LOL:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

You know what they'll do when that happens don't you - they'll want another poll! :D

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

This poll remindes of of the ignorance dominant at the end of the Roman Empire, face it fools, Britain (along with other nations) as a nation is a utter and complete faliure, the only way to fix Europe is to have a United States of Europe, or India, China and Brazil will overtake us!

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Nice to be called a fool but perhaps you need to open your eyes and see the current chaos and shambles in Europe at the moment as we are better off being on the outside looking in rather then being on the inside and probably facing the fate as some other countries have faced.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Always the same, When your losing it revert to name calling

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Sorry This poll remindes of of the ignorance dominant at the end of the Roman Empire, face it, Britain (along with other nations) as a nation is a utter and complete faliure, the only way to fix Europe is to have a United States of Europe, or India, China and Brazil will overtake us!

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

So do you feel if YOU repeat yourself enough time's it will magically happen ????

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

No I was correcting my post!

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Q. Do we need a United States Of Europe ?
A. Nah,,,,, I'm good thanks

Next Q should be . Do we need Europe
A. Nah,,,, I'd rather put my head in a vice thanks, whilst dangling my testicles in a vat of sulphuric acid and listening to Jedward,,,,,,,,,,, on repeat.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

It must suck to be you......

You are continuously pessimistic, hoping our problems will be solved by the magic of Big Brother Eurozone (when current evidence shows that Big Brother Eurozone is up ordure creek), and then you try to compare current problems with the fall of the Roman Empire, which took place over a couple of hundred years and was due to multiple factors, including decadence, corruption, lead piping, too many foreign wars, etc. etc., and you seem to forget that Diocletian decided to divide the Empire because it was too large to be ruled by one person.

You really are comparing apples with orangutans....

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

If being in the EU had enriched the UK and the other component nations I would agree with you. As it is even by the EU's own figures the costs of EU regulation far outweigh the savings of being within the EU. I'm talking a difference of 600bln Euros in costs vs 180bln Euros in savings.

The Euro has certainly enriched Germany, they've had an artificially weak currency to pimp their exports with for years, and the EU has enriched France with the various subsidies they extract especially under the CAP. Many other members the benefits are a tad more marginal.

If you could actually back up your assertions that we need a USE else we'll go bankrupt that would be appreciated as the evidence doesn't appear to favour it.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

right and there is no chaos and shambles here?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

You don't normally get people to see things from your prospective by calling them fools, even MP's have to decency to just think we're fools rather than say it.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Well at least we have not defaulted or lost our triple AAA credit rating even though our growth has stalled totally.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Being pragmatic we in Europe do need to stick together the logistics of remaining on our own seem to be incalculable,already the uks aircraft carriers are due to have er---no aircraft it is rumoured French planes wil be flying from them,the french ie EDF are due to build the next generation of nuclear power stations in the uk,and the germans own some of the power suppliers we currently have,need i mention BMW owns the mini plant and even Rols Royce ,and the french licence vans that are built in Luton.

Now i am European and am proud of being so,i suspect if the poll was do you want to be a part of the united states of america the answer would be different or am i being too cynical,would not want to be in the "51st" state myself,but am quite willing to be a part of the region in which i live.:)

The above are just examples of the European investment the uk gets in.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I voted no because right now we need to be a member of the EU like we need a hole in the head. It beggers belief that at a time when the single currency is in the mess it is that there are still some people wanting the UK to go diving into full integration. As it stands right now the EU is little more then a benefits club for france and germany with little or no benefit to other memebr states but a lot of cost involved.

With the EU as it stands right now i do not want to be in and will never want to be in does that mean i am against being a european no it doesn't it just means i have no intention of being a lapdog in a biased union. I think the EU needs to be scrapped in it's current form it is nothing more then a massive beaurocracy, corrupt to the enth degree (have they managed to get the books signed off yet) and despite having many states as members does little or nothing for the majority of them.

At some point in the future were a union of fair and EQUAL states be suggested i would be more then happy to weigh it on it's merits and would probably support membership but i cannot see that happening anytime soon. As for the comparison to the fall of rome lol just lol could you be anymore ignorant of either subject as there is no realistic comparison to be made in the two situations.

We are on the brink of another tech revolution clean energy and all the alternatives that brings with it in all areas and whether were in or out of the EU won't make much difference. If we don't start moving over to that area rather then flog the dead horse that is old industry we will be sealing our own economical fate. Thats where the future lies not in huge monolithic unions but in being on the ground floor building fast in new technologies.

It is that in the past that made us rich and it is that in the future that will determine if we stay rich or slowly slip into poverty EU or no EU won't alter that.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Very well put Sir ;)

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

But Hugh Alan says all will be peachy in the United States of France and Germany :LOL:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

As the euro experiment has proven the member states of Europe are too disimilar for a complete Union to work at present. Economic policies of countries don't match up, and then there is the fundamental problem of different interpretations of laws and regulations that some seem to follow more closely than others. Last but not least is the problem of language, and thus culture, something that other unions such as the USA really don't face.

It's worth looking at the break up of the USSR. In part that failed due to the fall of communism, but it is was the closest thing we saw in terms of attempts at unification of disparate countries, cultures and economies to one political mindset. Why should anyone think that Europe can achieve that level of success?

Unions such as the USA, achieved their coming together to commonality in the days before our modern media allowed the majority of the populace to be instantly aware of what was going on. Political power was in the hands of a real few, and economics were largely insular due to the difficulties of communication and transport. Those unions have then had time to develop and react to modern global economies.

The EU started out as a community with the aim of trying to improve trade between countries. Somehow that has gradually become confused with a wider powerhouse ambition. But the reality is that our sovereign govenments are seen as more important than the EU. In fact, for the EU to become a true union we have to start seeing a stage where we, the individual public, have direct control by election of whoever is President, and we hear a lot more from our representatives in the EU parliament having proper control over the direction of the individual states and their policies. If the EU was to be important, it would be the EU parliament that would be sorting out the euro fiasco, not the premiers and governments of each country. And it is entirely because the euro parliament is a waste of resources with no real teeth that the Euro, could never work.

Europe needs to wind itself back a bit, forget it's growth ambitions, and revert to it's original aims to promote trade between natiions rather than interfering with additional red tape. For some years to come I have to say we don't need a United States of Europe, but we do need a common trading platform.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Oops I stand alone with 'I don't know'..... For me, this is a time where ignorance is bliss. :D

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

who says we want to fix Europe ,it wouldn't bother me if we threw it the bin like a broken toy .
We don't need to be a member of the EU to trade with other European countries foreign companies will inevitably trade with whoever they get the best deal and since ease of trade was the reason to join the common market in the first place and since ease of trade has been put into a corner and forgotten about in favour of trying to create a USE then why do we need to remain in Europe at all ?.
European membership has become a deal with the devil ,if a country joins the EU then yes they will have access to virtually unlimited funds from other countries to bail them out with loans but as with the devil there is always a price ,namely giving up sovereign freedoms which the populace of countries are never warned about .Thankfully at the moment Cameron has at least had the balls to say no ,how long that will last i don't know

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Sounds a bit Harsh to me mate,a bit like a daily mail political headline .:(

Are you Andrew Pierce consultant editor of said publication.;)

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

All the members of the USSR all used to be part of Russia for hundreds of years and all the ex USSR nations have a lot of people who want their nations to be part of the Russia!

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Given the USSR didn't exist until 1922 and was formed by a merger of then-Soviet Russia and 3 other blocks, 2 of which were not previously a part of the Russian Empire it's a struggle to take your debating points seriously when the basic premise is proven wrong with 30 seconds on Google.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

30th December 1922 to be precise:D

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

:birthday: for the 10th or 30th depending on who's right

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

No it was the 30th as stated here for the treaty?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...on_of_the_USSR

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Has Mr Fry ever posted anything about the EU on this forum identified as accurate ?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Sirius can I ask what you would actually like our relationship with Europe to be?

I don't and never did want to be part of Federal Europe.However I do want to be part of Europe just on a loosely based trade related sort of way..without all of the protectionist systems like subsidies that led to ridiculous food mountains and wine lakes but ready to defend/police its borders against immigrants and terrorists..

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I think the vast majority of us in the UK would be happy with just that. I think that's what most of us feel we signed up to originally. It's just a pity that the big players in Europe don't agree with that concept and seem hell bent on a superstate whatever the cost.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I want a common market the same as the one we signed up for.



I do not want other country's to control this country's budgets

We should control what we do

We should control how we do it

We should control what law we can and cannot make

We should control what currency we use.

We should control who can and cannot work here

I want our budgets to be agreed in this country and not by a unilected group of people outside of this country.

In other words i want this country Governed by the Government of this country and not by a Central European Government not even elected by this country

However it seems some here are screaming for us to lose control to the EU bureaucrats.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

This.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Not many, given the poll standings.....

I wonder who voted 'for' :rolleyes: :D

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I don't think it needs the brains of an Archbishop to work it out does it :LOL:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Not to be rude but you haven't really answered my question.I can see what you don't want and can take that as a given.What I would like to know is what sort of relationship would you like INSTEAD?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

The relationship we had when the common market was formed. Before all this control freak attitude from certain members of Europe

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Which was no relationship as I remember it.Don't think we can step back to those days exactly in view of what has happened in the last 30/40 years.

I'm wondering what sort we can have NOW if we do actually leave and are on the outside of a Federal Europe.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I think i am far more worried about where Europe is heading. I just don't want to see us ruled by a Central European Government EVER.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Same relationship as most of us want really one of close trade and cooperation on joint external matters but no integration into a superstate and no loss of powers to an EU super parliament. Main problem i think the EU has now is that more and more people and states are realising that the current setup only really benefits two members france and germany they have both done exceedingly well out of the EU in it's current state.

I don't want us to be an enemy or awkward state of europe but i also don't want what we have now and what some would have us into in the near future given their way. I speak to a few people in other states that are EU members and most (actually only one that disagrees with the above is a french friend i have) echo those views they are not as keen for a superstate as some of their leaders.

The single currency was gerry mandered into being with some states having to cook the books to get in and it was never properly designed to cope with the disparency in the member states. Whilst this is the first big crisis for it if the infrastructure and the organisation of it is not fundamentally changed it will not be the last. My main want is for us to pay less to the EU not be bound by so much of their legislation that affects things such as business and our older trade deals.

I am a european as well as british but i am not a chess piece for france and germany to move about their boards to suit them and sadly thats what the EU has become an exclusive benefits club for two states often at the detriment of the others.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

+1:clap:

Your country is already MUCH BETTER than the USA has ever been!

The US govt is the most corrupt on the planet,they try to force thier views on the whole world,etc..... I dont think your govt does that do they??

Food is the worst in this country,laden with so much garbage its scary!

Aspertame,Maltodextrin,Caramel Colour,etc... Those are 3 that are all UN-NEEDED and didnt used to be in stuff! (Aspertame is quite bad)

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

But you aren't worried about where this country is headed?:erm:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Well I am for sure we can't be isolated from the EU or vice versa. Whatever happens, there are some very tough times ahead for all of us I feel. The sad fact is that China and India aren't emcumbered by the regulations and commitments etc. which the EU is and for that reason alone will continue to take a bigger share of the world pie leaving us to fight for what's left.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Not any more

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Maggy, debate is futile. As long as we have a country full of people on medication to help them cope any government can do whatever they want without fear of being condemned for their actions.

We should be more concerned about all the zombies. We legislate against people using mobiles whilst driving yet at the same time allow people to drive on medication which is designed to make them not to give a toss.

Is there a connection between the current state of the western world and the number of people blanked out on medication? Seems highly likely to me.. :erm:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

:rofl::rofl::rofl:oh lawdy lawdy

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

That seems to be a fairly sweeping statement - got any stats to back it up?

Recent data in the Grauniad show that around 1 in 10 (approx.) are being prescribed anti-depressants, which, while a high figure, isn't exactly "a country full of people on medication".

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Where the hell did that come from?:confused:

---------- Post added at 12:04 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

So where do you think we are headed?:)

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I think its a dig at me because my info says in a world of pain killers, A reference to my arthritis medication :rolleyes: Pretty low dig as well


To a point where the likes of Germany and France know we mean business and will use the Veto. Therefor they might now take us seriously when we say we want some of our power back in this country

---------- Post added at 12:39 ---------- Previous post was at 12:35 ----------

Indeed

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

It depends, if those people are confined to certain pockets of the country then those areas could have a high proportion of zombies, of course we will never know the true number as many people will be dealt with under BUPA and other company health schemes.
Once you know someone who is on medication the others are easy to spot, they have a vacant look and appear to be focusing on something in the distance. Take a bus ride and look around, zombies everywhere, they all seem to have a trait which makes them want to rush to the front of the bus three stops before the one they want, bus drivers don't know whether they are coming or going.

I have a mate in Aldershot (ex Army), he told me he doesn't know anyone who isn't on medication apart from me.
My neighbour has been on the medical cosh since he left the army and got a mortgage 25 years ago, hey, I am beginning to see a connection here, no no, I'm sure most of them have no connection past or present with the services. :D

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

And this has what to do with this thread other than for you to have a dig at people ?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

A small fly in the oitment is from 2014 this is coming in.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Qualif...37305142956805

Have not had time to go into it properly but does it mean from 2014 if this comes in the uk will not be ale to use its veto to block proposals,as the rules change.

As i said i have not had time to look into it but under the new rues the uk could easily be out voted for good or bad.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Then lets get out now before they can really crap on us from a great height.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Actually, the link I gave showed the distribution, and it averages out at around 10%.

I would be interested, of course, in any stats you could provide which would show otherwise.

btw, I am ex-services (and I know quite a few others as well), and I (and most of the ones I know) aren't on anti-depressants - my group of acquaintances could be shown not to be a valid sample, but the same could be said of yours...

btw, most of your friends are on "the medical cosh" but you aren't - could there be a connection?;)

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

The point is that by increasingly giving people the medical cosh politicians can get away with murder.
It wasn't a dig at you at all, I was just pointing out that politicians will do anything to get their own way.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Only two problems with your point -
a) doctors prescribe medicines, not politicians
b) the stats don't back up your claim

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I would have had more confidence in the EU if they had jailed all the bankers, seems to me all the European Governments are the same as ours.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Trust me if i did not have my pain killers i would not be able to work, Thats the reason i take them and to reduce the pain :).

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Which is why I believe a referendum (which IMHO would result in a vote to leave) could well result from the aftermath of all of this. I'm sure Cameron can see the writing's on the wall and all that has happened is his hand has been forced. If the big players in the EU want to nullify our veto because it suits their aims to do so you can be sure they'll find a way by hook or by crook. It's inevitable I feel.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Are you able to sleep well?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

There are 3 outcomes i see from this

1) France and Germany will spit a few feathers ,make a few tough remarks for a few weeks then we will be back around the table and we will get what we want
2) A big shout for a referendum on leaving the EU that Cameron can't ignore and stay in office
3) Cameron will cave in to clegg and the rest of the europhiles

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

No because of the tablets

---------- Post added at 13:58 ---------- Previous post was at 13:57 ----------

[/COLOR]option 2 for me please

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

my favourite as well

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I dont normally join in the threads in this section...

but....

The only attraction the EU seems to hold is for "failed" politians who seem to imeadiately get a hu, no HUGE salary for some "non" job........

The sooner option 2 is offered to us ordinary hard working mortals the better

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

:clap:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

:clap:

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I don't think they will take us seriously, we couldn't even get one measly country to support our position, we are completely ostracised and can't even argue to get some of that power back, the more I see, hear and think about it the more I feel Dave's petulance was a massive error, still it played well in those grotty little tabloids.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

so you feel that Cameron should have agreed to sign the new treaty ?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Whilst not a fan of Cameron l feel on this occasion the decision to use our veto was the right decision to make but it will be interesting in the next few days to see the body language between him and Pinocchio Clegg.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Do I? Thanks for letting me know what I'm feeling 'coz I thought I was feeling it would have been better if Dave had played for time, not signed it and tried to get at least 1 but preferably 3 or 4 other countries to support us, still that wouldn't have had The Sun fawning all over him would it.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

As do i .It would effectively mean that we have no control over our own budgets ,our financial sector would have been under threat and we would have to prop up more countries with financial bail outs ,and i daresay that there would be other bits to the treaty snuck in under the radar to remove even more sovereignty

---------- Post added at 16:25 ---------- Previous post was at 16:16 ----------

I asked a question ,that's what this ? means :rolleyes:and i asked it because you called him petulant leading me to think that you are in favour of him signing .The reason why "one measley country"won't support us is because those measley countries rely on the EU to bail them out (or may in the future) .This new treaty will take years to sort out so there is plenty of time for other countries to realise what they are signing up for and pull out and plenty of time for the EU big guns (France/Germany)to pull their heads in and realise that they need our financial input to make this treaty work

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

Looked more like an assumption than a question, regardless of a question mark, still does imo.

Yes and you think we could've convinced one of them that doesn't need bailing out to side with us, Sweden for instance felt the impact of a Tobin tax on it's then thriving financial sector in the '80's.

Yes months and years where we have absolutely no influence over it, no input what so ever and no chance to argue what's best for us, is this the really the victory the tabloids and some here are claiming?

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

We never would have had any influence over it.:rolleyes: Berlin could have separated out the bits that they knew full well in advance that the UK didn't want, and found unanimous agreement on the rest. Those separated bits could have been subject to a different agreement. Their sole purpose was(and always will be) to damage the UK.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

I fear you are correct and you can bet a Tobin Tax wouldn't have got so much support from Merkel and Sarkozy if the 'City' was in Berlin/Paris and contributed 10% of German/French GDP. I wonder why? :rolleyes:

The French and Germans are quite happy to sideline the UK since they believe the UK is all that stands between them and the superstate they believe is the only way forward.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe
 

That's bad, when I have been ill and unable to sleep properly I felt terrible the following day, totally shattered. I can imagine how you feel when you have to go to work in that condition.
This bloody weather doesn't help, we should all have emigrated years ago.

Re: Do we need a United States Of Europe